NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #31/NN_1992_31.iso/spool/alt/atheism/24563

Text File | 1992-12-30 | 7.0 KB | 155 lines

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From: "James F. Tims" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I.Q. & Brains
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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 07:51:23 GMT
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> Fred Rice <[e-mail]>
>
>In <[e-mail]> "James F. Tims" <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>>Paraphrased from The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith, Burnham
>>P. Beckwith, _Free Inquiry_, Spring 1986:
>
>[...studies purporting to show inverse relationship between intelligence
>and religiosity deleted...]
>
I would like to delete the following, but the conclusions below are those
of Burnham P. Beckwith, taken as verbatim as I could make them from the
_FI_ above.  I did not write this.

>>    Conclusions
>>    In this essay I ahve reviewed: (1)sixteen studies of the
>>    correlation between individual measures of student intelligence and
>>    religiosity, all but three of which reported an inverse
>>    correlation. (2) five studies reporting that student bodies with high
>>    average IQ and/or SAT scores are much less religious than inferior
>>    student bodies;(3)three studies reporting that geniuses (IQ 150+)
>>    are much less religious than the general public (Average IQ, 100),
>>    and one dubious study,(4)seven studies reporting that highly
>>    successful persons are much less religious in belief than are others;
>>    and (5) eight old and four new Gallup polls revealing that
>>    college alumni (average IQ about 115) are much less religious in
>>    belief than are grade-school pollees.
>
>>    I have also noted that many studies have shown that students
>>    become less religious as they proceed through college, probably in
>>    part because average IQ rises.
>
>>    All but four of the forty-three polls I have reviewed support
>>    the conclusion that native intelligence varies inversely with
>>    degree of religious faith; i.e., that, other factors being equal,
>>    the more intelligent a person is, the less religious he is.  It
>>    is easy to find fault with the studies I have reviewed, for all
>>    were imperfect.  But the fact that all but four of them
>>    supported the general conclusion provides overwhelming evidence
>>    that, among American students and adults, the amount of religious
>                    ^^^^^^^^
>>    faith tends to vary inversely and appreciably with intelligence.
>
>These studies were done of Americans, so presumably most of the
>religious people tested (where religion is not stated) were Christian.
>However, these results may be culture-specific and cannot be used to
>come to any conclusions about intelligence-religiosity correlations in
>non-American Christian societies or, of course, in non-Christian
>societies.  As I explain more fully in my reply to your posting in the

I too have already more or less replied to this there.

>"iq<->religion: connection?" thread, these results could also be
>explained by the more intelligent people in society being more willing
>to oppose the viewpoint against the majority (which, in the American
>studies, would be Christianity).  If this were the explanation, then in
>a predominantly atheist society, one would find a positive correlation
>between religiosity and intelligence.

And this is the same question again.  Don't want to repeat myself.

>
>[...stuff deleted...]
>
>>Are there highly intelligent Xians?  Most certainly, but they do not
>>apply their reasoning to religion.  Perhaps the best hypotheses to
>>explain the phenomenon of the intelligent professing deep religiosity are
>                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>By "deep religiosity" are you specifically referring to Christianity
>here, or religiosity in general?  I think you are definitely casting
>your net too wide if you mean *all* religiosity (as the set of all
>religions is a very, very large set).

I was referring to Xians more than any other specific group.  Excuse
me for the dangling pronouns and sloppy intermixing of religion and
Xianity.  But I would assume, given enough information, a Hindu would
throw in the towel, too, or any other religion that I have yet seen to
exist.  So, yes, you could say I am definitely casting my net too wide,
at least for you.

>
>>1) Ignorance.  Intelligence does not imply correct information.
>>2) Compartmented personality.  The scientist and the prayer-maker never meet.
>>3) Knavery.  The statement of belief is a sham to serve another purpose.
>>4) Fear of censure by friends and family.
>>5) Delusions or insanity.
>
>While you may consider these possible reasons, there are plenty of
>further possible reasons.

Scads, to be sure.  I could list them all night.  These were just my
first pass at possibilities, suggesting of course that those professing
belief have many conceivable motives for doing so other than belief itself.
You miss the point entirely by offering the example of someone who
really does believe. I apologize for speculating.  My role
seems relegated to posting applicable studies.

>
>You forget about the possibility of a religious experience or
>mystic experience specific to the person who experiences it.  Such an

Yes.  You're right.  I forgot.  Silly, stupid, inept me.

I have yet to distinguish mystic experiences from delusion,
hallucination, or insanity.  Peyote can give one remarkable visions of a
world not seen by your average US citizen.  Its result is reproduceable,
predictable to some extent, and overwhelming to all reason.  (I have this
on authority, circa 1970, but will not reveal my sources.  I believe the
operant phrase was, "Can't find your way out of a phone booth, nor see
any reason to leave such a fascinating environment." 8^)  On regaining one's
composure, reason can sometimes return, but as you note, not always.

>experience may give a specific individual the rational reasons to be
>religious.  However, such a person's reasons, while rational to him/her,
>cannot be sensibly challenged by others as they have not had the same
>experience as s/he did.

Once again, my speculations attempt to provide cases where intelligent
people, with the exception of delusion or insanity, lie about believing.
Perhaps, even then!

It has not been adequately demonstrated to me that people who profess
belief in religion, especially in Xianity, especially in today's world,
especially among well-educated, intelligent people, actually believe
their own testimony.  Many other reasons seem just as likely, enough
that I suspect the number of atheists is underestimated.  How many
professed atheists are secret Rastafarians?  Who knows?

>
> Fred Rice
> [e-mail]
  ,...,.,,
 /666;    ',    jim tims
////;    _~ -   [e-mail]
(/@/----0-~-0
 ;'  . `` ~ \'
  , `    ' , >      What's going on here, anyway?  Why does a Xian care?
;;|\..((   -C---->> In all honesty, it appears to me that simpleminded
;;| >-  `.__),;;    naivete is a Xian ideal, and being TOO smart a sin.