NetNews Usenet Archive 1993 #3/NN_1993_3.iso/spool/soc/men/23131

Internet Message Format | 1993-01-23 | 5.1 KB

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Path: sparky!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!tlode
From: [e-mail] (trygve lode)
Subject: Re: The Nice Guy Syndrome (was: Re: Male Men Bashers)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 05:49:55 GMT
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in <[e-mail]>
    [e-mail] (Gordon Fitch) writes:

] [e-mail] (Janice Kendall) writes:
] | >OK.  Let's define what "nice, sensitive guy" means...
] | >
] | >I am a woman and I wanted a "nice, sensitive guy".  I've dated self-centered
] | >jerks and as I matured and came to care more about my own "quality of life"
] | >(yep - it's, arghhh, SELF-ESTEEM!), I quit seeing the self-centered jerks
] | >as better-than-me-and-therefore-desirable, and saw them as self-centered
] | >jerks not worth wasting my time on.
]
] [e-mail] (Eric Pepke) writes:
] | Thanks for saying this.  It is consistent with my experience.
] |
] | The reason I set the followups the way I did is that I want to talk about
] | the message that men get.  The message is this:
] |
] | 1) If you're a self-centered jerk, you'll get plenty of dates.
] | 2) It you're a nice, sensitive guy, you may at some time acquire a long-term
] |    partner who may or may not stop dating self-centered jerks.  In the mean
] |    time, you might as well watch Popeye cartoons to see what your forearms
] |    are going to look like.
] |
] | This is generally called the "nice guy syndrome."
]
] I haven't found these scenarios to be true.  Rather, I think
] that self-centered-jerkness and nice-guyness are orthogonal
] (as people who speak pseudomath like to say) to the ability
] to get dates.  The reason the myth arises is, I think,
] because those who are poor at getting dates need to find
] some cause which preserves their self-esteem.

Like most myths/stereotypes, I believe the "nice guy syndrome" does have
a basis in reality--we live in a culture that is very hard on the self
esteems of the people in it and that teaches people to think of
themselves as "not good."  Someone who has internalized such an outlook
will tend to seek out romantic partners that reinforce their self-image
and, further, because of this internalized self-judgment, someone who
treats them well is neither desirable ("if she/he likes me, she/he can't
very well be a worthwhile person") nor respected ("he/she likes me, but
I'm not good, therefore his/her opinions are not of value.")

Further, there are a lot of mental and physically abusive people out
there--and if you are raised in an abusive environment or become
accustomed (even addicted) to the emotional rollercoaster ride of an
abusive relationship, then it generally takes a great deal of effort and
determination to break out of the cycle of seeking out abusive
relationships.  Our culture has a greater tendency to reinforce women's
negative self-images and to encourage overtly abusive behavior in men,
so this tends to be a behavior style more often found in women than men,
but it's hardly unknown among males either.  (I've certainly known
enough men who seem to be able to sustain a romantic interest only in
female "jerks.")

However, like most myths/stereotypes, this is by no means a universal
behavior pattern--but to the 'nice guy' who's been dumped for classic
jerk-types in his last six relationships, I can imagine that it might
start to seem that way.

In my experience, the men I've known who were by far the most in
demand with women have been of the classic "jerk" type; however,
for all the women who were turned on by the thought of being abused,
treated like dirt, and lied to, there were at least as many who were
turned off by it--so there is plenty of hope for the "nice guy" male.

] The other reason is that there's a social Gresham's law.
] Gresham's law states that bad money drives out good;
] currency with low "intrinsic" value tends to be circulated
] (people get rid of it) while that with high "intrinsic"
] value is kept.  The same with dates: the jerks quickly get
] put back in circulation, while the nice guys (the real
] ones) are carefully sequestered and kept warm and cozy.
] The "success" of the jerk is usually a very temporary one;
] that's why he has so many to report.

That's both a good point and a particularly good way of putting it--I'd
suggest that it goes even a little further than that, since most "jerks"
never actually go out of circulation; at least the ones I've known
generally haven't stopped circulating no matter what their relationship
status was--one of the more impressive classic "jerk" type was
definitely always actively seeking new conquests, even if he was already
engaged to several women at the time and I've known a reasonable number
who weren't dissuaded by little details like being married.

Trygve
--
How many Ministry of Truth employees does it take to change a light bulb?
None--there never *was* a light bulb.