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- Newsgroups: alt.war
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- From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
- Subject: Re: Warfare in the Middle Ages
- Message-ID: <1992Dec31.083246.2171@nntp.hut.fi>
- Sender: usenet@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id)
- Nntp-Posting-Host: saha.hut.fi
- Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated
- References: <1992Dec24.034607.26765@fcom.cc.utah.edu> <725614928snx@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz>
- Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 08:32:46 GMT
- Lines: 82
-
- In article <725614928snx@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz> mike@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz (Mike Campbell) writes:
- >
- >In article <1992Dec24.034607.26765@fcom.cc.utah.edu> syl5487@u.cc.utah.edu writes:
- >
- > >
- > > How important were archers and crossbowmen during the middle ages?
- >
- >There was the battle of Falkirk (I think) where the Scots were forced
- >to sit stationary in large "pike-blocks" or schiltrons due to the
- >presence of English cavalry, and were shot to peices by longbowmen.
-
- Yep, the same can be said about the Halidon Hill.
-
- >Generally medieval missile troops could provide real trouble for their
- >opponents, but they were very vulnerable to heavy cavalry. The
- >English solved this by hiding behind stakes. Most other nations
-
- Only after the battle of Agincourt. The real English solution of the problem
- was to intersperse units of dismounted knights with the archer units, thus
- providing staying and hacking power the archers lacked. Archers shot and
- men-at-arms fought.
-
- >used such troops in much smaller numbers, so they could be protected
- >by spearmen. King Richard I (the Lionheart) used mixed crossbow/spear
- >units against the Moslems in the Outremer.
-
- Yep, this was also the Italian solution (to have first ranks pavisiers
- with long spears and rear ranks crossbowmen), as did the Teutonic Order
- in the Baltic countries.
-
- >Contrary to popular belief, the longbow had no great advantage over
- >the crossbow. The standard method of using crossbows was for one chap
- >to load, while another took the loaded crossbows and fired them. When
- >the loader got tired they could swap duties. With this sort of drill
- >the rate of fire for 2 men with crossbows was comparable to longbows
- >over a period of 10 minutes or more. Moreover the fire was
- >"steadier", as the firer had no strain to hold as he took aim, and
- >both could be protected by large shields (pavise) or mantlets for most
- >of the drill.
-
- The crossbow was the "secret weapon" of the Teutonic Order. Because of its long
- range, it outshot the foot and horse bows badly, therefore giving advantage
- for the super-heavy cavalry to charge the hapless Lithuanians. Their opponents
- never seemed to adopt the weapon (f. eg. the Prussians never understood how
- it worked).
-
- Horse archery was more a nuisance than a real threat. The range of cavalry
- bows was remarkably shorter than the foot bows and the fire density of the
- horse archery was smaller (missiles hit/square meter*minute) with the mounted
- archery than with the foot archery. Generally also the arrows shot with the
- horse bows were lighter, thereby having less penetrative power, than with the
- foot bows; having hit a dozen time in a battle and surviving was not uncommon
- in the Crusader-Turks battles.
-
- Horse archers were skirmishers, and little else. Their job was to ride in
- front of the enemy, irritate it into battle by shooting at their ranks, and
- evade as the enemy charged, letting heavier cavalry (lancers/cataphracts)
- deal with the disorganized enemy. If the terrain favored the lights, these
- tactics could be murderously effective. if the terrain was somewhat closed,
- the light cavalry could be easily rolled over with the heavy cavalry, like
- knights. The Lithuanians seemed never to learn this fact: they lost each
- and every battle against the Teutonic Order at open field.
-
- Europe is by terrain much more broken and close than Asia, and therefore it
- hardly is surprising very little light skirmishing cavalry evolved here
- during the Middle Ages: there just was no room for employ them, unlike the
- steppes of the Asia. True, there were mounted crossbowmen and even handgunners,
- but never in really significant numbers. The only place in Europe where light
- cavalry was employed in numbers, was Spain: both Andalusians and Spaniards
- employed light jinete cavalry (javelineers, which are much more efficient
- than bows) in large numbers there, balanced with heavy hidalgos.
-
- One subject not yet covered are slings. Although childish-looking, a sling is
- harasser's dream: simple yet effective, and good even against armored foe: a
- slingshot can cause considerable damage (broken bones etc) by impact, like mace
- and its range was rather long. An improvement of this was staff sling, which
- was even stronger a weapon and was used in numbers, especially in Spain.
-
- --++ Tuomas Viljanen ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do ++
- ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19 ++ not need a military genius like ++
- ++ SF-02720 Espoo FINLAND ++ Edward III. All you need is an ++
- ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like Duke of Alencon. ++
-