NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #27/NN_1992_27.iso/spool/comp/unix/question/13893

Internet Message Format | 1992-11-24 | 69.4 KB

Path: sparky!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!lhc!adm!news
From: [e-mail] (SMTP MAILER)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Mail not delivered yet, still trying
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:21:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 1968


 ----Mail status follows----
Have been unable to send your mail to <[e-mail]>,
will keep trying for a total of eight days.
At that time your mail will be returned.

 ----Transcript of message follows----
Date: 22 Nov 92 03:26:00 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: INFO-UNIX Digest  V17#009
To: "DGRAY" <[e-mail]>

Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
Received: from SEM.BRL.MIL by milo.starlab.csc.com with SMTP ;
          Sun, 22 Nov 92 03:19:32 EST
Received: from SEM.BRL.MIL by SEM.BRL.MIL id aa25769; 21 Nov 92 7:44 EST
Received: from sem.brl.mil by SEM.BRL.MIL id aa25481; 21 Nov 92 7:26 EST
Date:       Sat, 21 Nov 92 07:25:52 EST
From:       The Moderator (Mike Muuss) <[e-mail]>
To:         [e-mail]
Reply-To:   [e-mail]
Subject:    INFO-UNIX Digest  V17#009
Message-ID:  <[e-mail]>

INFO-UNIX Digest          Sat, 21 Nov 1992              V17#009

Today's Topics:
                           Re: IS UNIX DEAD?
                      Re: rz problems at 9600 baud
                       Absurd! (Re: IS UNIX DEAD)
                   Re: Need Phone line configuration
             Re: Unlocking named pipes (solved + question)
                        Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
                        FTP'able Unix tutorials
            Question: How to get comd line arg of processes
                  Re: Changing the owner of a process
                     Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (very long)
                      I/O mapping from /bin/login
                             FTP question.
                           Re: FTP question.
                    Re: what does 8-bit clean mean ?
                        Re: tcsh-like subroutine
                            Milliseconds !!
                  mapping extended keyboard in vi/ksh
                           Re: UNIX Training
                          text search software
                     function calls for awkcc code
                            SIGS in SoftMail
                    Re: Suppressing the 'w' command
                           Internet question
      Can telnetd preserve environment ? Can I get one that does ?
    Re: Can telnetd preserve environment ? Can I get one that does ?
                      Re: Passing args to login(1)
                        Re: IS UNIX DEAD (long)
                    Re: Searching for E-mail package
                            RE: IS UNIX DEAD
                   Any terminfo compilers available?
                 Re: C Source Code for Pattern Matching
                   WHAT IS UNIX? (was IS UNIX DEAD?)
                         Capturing tty output?
                    Shell Programming for Beginners
               It ain't a 24x80 world anymore. Or is it?
                               cnews help
                How does a mortal become a UNIX WIZARD ?
                      What's wrong with select() ?
                     Re: sudo with hidden password?
-----------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Ratcliffe <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD?
Date: 14 Nov 92 19:06:09 GMT
To:       [e-mail]


 In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jim Gottlieb) writes:
 > In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Paul Prescod) writes:
 >
 > >Sure, you can trick Unix into being easy, but that's not the point.  The
 > >point is that it has to be SOLD layered with easy and hard levels.
 >
 > I agree, and I admit to being a bit of a Unix bigot.
 >
 > I tell someone how wonderful Unix is, so they go out and buy it and are
 > quite disappointed when they log in for the first time and see:
 >
 > $

Then tell them how to set up their .profile or .cshrc or whatever so
they can get nice warm fuzzy prompts. :)

 > (or %).  Now when they tried out Unix on my system, their prompt
 > showed them what directory they were in.  Why not have a new system
 > come up by default with a mildly interesting prompt (and with a color
 > background on a color screen).  First impressions count for much.

Tell that to MicroSoft. After all, the first thing you see there on a
new install is far from the

PROMPT $P$G

we all would rather see.

--
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit![e-mail] -or- [e-mail] -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit![e-mail]            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |

-----------------------------

From: Peter Busser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD?
Date: 18 Nov 92 01:26:59 GMT
To:       [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Budi Rahardjo) writes:

>You want phone # or mail addres for linux ? Here's an example (taken from
>comp.os.linux today ):

Look, it's very nice of you to let me read comp.os.linux twice ;-) but the
messages only say something about getting the disks, nothing else. That is,
I didn't see the word ``support'' anywhere, did you?

Besides, I'm not living in Germany.

Greetings,
Peter Busser

-----------------------------

From: Budi Rahardjo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD?
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:38:33 GMT

global.hackt
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: antares.cc.umanitoba.ca
To:       [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Peter Busser) writes:

>[e-mail] (Budi Rahardjo) writes:

>>You want phone # or mail addres for linux ? Here's an example (taken from
>>comp.os.linux today ):

>Look, it's very nice of you to let me read comp.os.linux twice ;-) but the
>messages only say something about getting the disks, nothing else. That is,
>I didn't see the word ``support'' anywhere, did you?

Have you tried phoning them ?

>Besides, I'm not living in Germany.

Then find one that's in NL. (I took that posting just for an example.
I didn't look carefully for other places).
You're not living in Germany, so what ? You can still phone them right ?
Next time, probably you want to find place one block from your home :-)

-- budi
--
Budi Rahardjo <[e-mail]>
Unix Support - Computer Services - University of Manitoba

-----------------------------

From: Budi Rahardjo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD?
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:51:35 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: antares.cc.umanitoba.ca
To:       [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Paul Prescod) writes:

>>>Because that often saves (a lot of) money.
>>
>>I doubt it. If you insist to install the OS yourself then you better
>>start learning how manage it.

>No, no, no, no, no....OS/2, Windows, DOS etc. have PROVED that you don't
>have to be a system administrator to install an OS.

Ever heard a user got confused using FDISK and trashed his partition
and don't know what to do ?
Ever tried to install different mouse driver for windows and make windows
hang ? How do you fix it ?

>Why do you insist on
>this dogma "if you aren't computer literate enough to install Unix, you
>should pay someone to do it."

Why not ? I've seen people buying PC with DOS and Windows installed, same
with UNIX. These people don't want to know how to install DOS or Windows.
(I know some people who don't know how to install DOS and Windows, all
they really care is Word Perfect.)
Also some company will sell you the machine with UNIX pre-installed.

>Why not make unix easy enough to install
>that you don't have to do either?

Several people have pointed out that installing UNIX was easy.

-- budi
--
Budi Rahardjo <[e-mail]>
Unix Support - Computer Services - University of Manitoba

-----------------------------

From: Dave Ratcliffe <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: rz problems at 9600 baud
Date: 15 Nov 92 22:14:27 GMT
Followup-To: comp.unix.questions
To:       [e-mail]


 In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kevin Hanrahan) writes:
 > [e-mail] (John D. Boggs) writes:
 >
 > >Has anyone experienced problems using rz/sz at 9600 baud?  I just
 > >bought a 9600 baud modem and am experiencing problems I've never had
 > >before (at 2400).  I give my remote host the sz command, then call rz
 > >using minicom's receive feature, and the computer proceeds to give me
 > >all sorts of error messages one after the other (sometimes getting some
 >
 > The error messages sound like the same problem we have here, but
 > our setup is somewhat different.  We have PC's connected to our
 > network through serial connections to TRW ACU's.  These run
 > at 9600 bps, but there is no modem involved.  I have also been
 > unable to use sz/rz to my PC at home thru a dialup which also
 > uses a TRW ACU.  A friend of mine has successfully used sz/rz
 > over a 9600 bps modem that does not go thru one of these TRW boxes.

The symptoms described by John sounds suspiciously like problems I had
here for quite some time also using sz/rz. Here's what I eventually
found:

There was a simple handshaking problem.  I'm using a Trailblazer+ locked
at 19200 to the cpu but had callers at 2400 having blown transfers and
transfer rates (with all the errors counted in) of less than 300 bps.  A
temporary fix was to use the sz -w1024 [filename] command to send files
with a window of 1024 bytes.  This forced the speed a bit slower than a
normallly operating 2400 connection but it at least worked temporarily
by forcing a break every 1024 bytes of transfer to allow an ACK/NAK to
come down.  This blows the streaming capability of Zmodem but DOES work.
Note that this is with sz on a Unix machine sending to a DOS machine
with a 2400 baud connection.  The same problem is likely if you are
connecting at 9600 to a system with a modem locked to it's host at
19200.  UPLOADING to such a system (using rz) probably won't cause
problems.

I cured this royal pain by installing FAS drivers and 16550AFN Uarts.
The previously non-existant handshaking now deals with it all and I no
longer need the sz -w1024 command. A simple fix in the end. BTW, I'm
using a Digiboard DigiCHANNEL PC/8 under Microport SYSV/386 here.

As usual, your mileage may vary and this might not even be the problem
you two are having but it's a place to look.

Good luck.

--
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit![e-mail] -or- [e-mail] -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit![e-mail]            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |

-----------------------------

From: Luke Kendall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Absurd! (Re: IS UNIX DEAD)
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:48:31 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
To:       [e-mail]

This `is Unix dead' is one of the most stupid subjects I have ever seen
discussed.
  1) Some people seem to be confusing operating systems with the
     applications that run under the OS.
  2) Unix is the only OS that will run on (effectively) every computer ever
     manufactured.  Nothing else offers this - there _is no alternative_.
     (Even ignoring the fact that the Mac and PC operating systems only
     run on one hardware platform each, they still often have difficulty
     operating with add-on hardware even though it is intended to be
     used for them specifically!
Prediction:
  Now that Unix can be run on PCs, and the price barrier of all its
  benefits has fallen, and we are seeing many more user-friendly
  programs being developed for it, it will become the underlying
  operating system of choice.

It has its drawbacks, but nothing like those of its `competitors'. Sure,
Windows etc. will probably still be popular in 20 years time.  But what
do you expect? Some people still program in Cobol, for heaven's sake!
--
Luke Kendall, Senior Software Engineer.      | Net:   [e-mail]
Canon Information Systems Research Australia | Phone: [phone]
P.O. Box 313 North Ryde, NSW, Australia 2113 | Fax:   [phone]

-----------------------------

From: David Breneman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Need Phone line configuration
Date: 17 Nov 92 23:55:38 GMT
To:       [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael A. Schepers) writes:
>Hi,
>
>     Does anyone know what the standard phone line PIN configuration is?
>     What I need to do is create a male RS-232 connector (25 pin) from a
>     standard phone line (6 wires; Blue, Yel, Red, Grn, Blk, Wht).  I
>     believe the phone line is a rj45, but I would not bet on it.
>     Thanks for the help!!!

TIP is green, RING is red.  This is the wire pair in the middle of
the modular plug.  Wire pairs start with the two wires in the middle
of the plug and go out towards the edge, so on a 6-wire mudular
plug, the pairs would be 3-4, 2-5 and 1-6.  On a standard residential
installation, yellow is ground and black is transformer +.  The trans-
former was used to light the dials of Trimline and Princess phones.
Newer lighted-dial phones use a low-current LED which draws its
power directly from the phone lines.  Blue and white depends on your
application.  Is this the information you wanted?


--
David Breneman     Sys Admin, Tacoma Screw Products, Inc. |  ____  ____  ____
[e-mail]           |   SCREWIE the TSP CLOWN sez-  |   /   /___  /___/
 ..!uunet!tacoma!dcb      | "Zinc & cadmium plating stops |  /   ____/ /
CompuServe: 75760,1232    |  rust & acts as a lubricant!" |

-----------------------------

From: "frederick.d.true" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Unlocking named pipes (solved + question)
Keywords: named pipe FIFO
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:06:43 GMT
Followup-To: comp.unix.questions
To:       [e-mail]


Well, after receiving very few responses to my problem, I did a little
poking around in the SunOS kernel config files to try and find an
answer.

Basically, my problem was this: I was using several named pipes to
receive the output of several 'zcat file...' commands, and was then
using 'sort <ops> -m pipe1 pipe2...' to merge the named pipes
together. The result was that I could merge several large compressed
sorted files, without having to decompress them to disk.

The problem was that after running for a while, the process would
freeze and all processes would go into IW. I thought it was strange
that this would happen all by itself, and indeed it didn't. At the
same time, I was testing this process on several smaller files, using
named pipes (different pipes, of course).

I then noticed in the kernel configuration file, the option "options
FIFOCNT=10' was being set. Sure enough, in the "Sun System and Network
Administration" manual, I stumbled across the following, under "Tuning
IPC System Parameters":

    FIFOCNT determines the makimum number of FIFOs that may be in
    use in the system an any given time. Attempts to write more
    than FIFOCNT simultaneous FIFOs will block until some FIFOs
    are closed, releasing system resources. In the current
    implementation, FIFO buffers are allocated in non-paging
    memory, and can lead to system lockup if indiscriminantly
    allocated. This restriction make be removed in a future
    release.

Well, that was the problem. The job would run fine as long as I was
using <= 10 pipes. When I fiddled around while the job was running, I
caused several of the pipes to block, and sort would stop, and all
other processes would eventually stop since none of the pipes would
clear until sort was done.

I've rebuilt the kernel with FIFOCNT=16 to help me out temporarily,
but my question is this: is it really true that only this many named
pipes can be used at once *in the entire system*? What if 2 users try
to do this at the same time? Or 2 jobs for that matter?

It seems very unfriendly, for such a nice feature.

--
Fred True
AT&T

-----------------------------

From: Peter Busser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:11:48 GMT

al.hacktic.n
To:       [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Budi Rahardjo) writes:

>>  - how much is the difference between a DOS/Windows app and a comparable
>>    UNIX app? (Ok, let the flames come in! :)))
>I am not sure what you mean by that ?

Sorry that I was very unclear. I ment the price.

>>If I for instance don't like the
>>Motif window manager and I switch to the OPEN LOOK window manager. That makes
>>that makes several things look different on the screen. But everything the
>>application displays remains exactly the same.

>That's what window manager supposed to do. (Like the name says
>"window manager").

Yes and the name says exactly what it does: manage windows. It doesn't handle
buttons, scroll bars, check boxes, pop-up menus, etc., etc. An OPEN LOOK app
is still an OPEN LOOK app when run under Motif. After a few clicks, you have
as many user interfaces as applications, except for the borders.

-----------------------------

From: Peter Busser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:46:52 GMT
To:       [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Philippe Goujard) writes:

>Anyway I don't think it is very fair to compare vi and winword. One is a
>text editor created to edit mostly C sources the other is a word processor
>with graphic capabilities.

I agree with that, compare it for instance with OS/2's E.EXE or Windows'
NOTEPAD.EXE. They're very limited, but very easy to use.

>I havent come across many terminals with 12 function keys actually. I'm not
>sure you can count the keybord of the IBM AT (the XT had only 10 fkeys)
>since it is not really a terminal, it's a computer which can emulate
>(sometimes well and sometimes not so well) terminals.

Well, I've seen several terminals with a PC kind of keyboard (Philips and NCR).
I wouldn't be surprised when they are in fact PC keyboards.

>First you must remember that the "F1=Help" convention was really introduced
>with IBM CUA standard (and therefore Windows and Presentation Manager.

Ah, I didn't know that.

>Before that text applications implemented help the way they wanted (and some
>still do).

Yep.

>Under Unix, X-window itself is just the windows server but I'm
>don't know if the GUI (openlook & motif) implement it. (maybe motif, can
>someone confirm?).

Well, Open Look specifies a helpkey, it's a standard Open Look feature. Don't
know about Motif though.

>Another problem to overcome is that many terminal emulators don't work too
>well : they treat certain keys locally. When you press F1 on some terminal
>emulators it doesnt send F1 to the remote machine and calls the local help
>menu.

That's not the case for the PC terminal emulators I know. Most use some kind of
ALT combination.

>Wasn't vi written at first to test your terminal speaker?

Hahaha! Well, I've also seen 'flashy' but silent vi-s...

>Where did you get the idea that vi had a "wordprocessor mode"? (and wordwrap
>is not enough for me to be a wordprocessor mode!). It definitely hasn't. Vi
>is an editor for editing C sources.

You forgot the LISP mode! ;-)

>It does it very good (at least that's
>the opinion of people like me who have been using it for a long time) but it
>is definitely not an all purpose editor. And if you don't like it in the
>first place, don't use it.



>    - The real well known competitor is emacs which has the problems of
>        - Being nearly as cryptic as vi
>        - Being "copylefted" so you can't include it in commercial unixes
>        (although Dell includes it I think).

<sigh> Copylefted means that you can't change the code without giving away
the source. It doesn't mean that you can't *sell* the code (and/or derived
binary). RTFC (Read The Fucking Copyleft) or RTFGM (Read The Fucking GNU
Manifesto)!!! The copyleft explicitly permits commercial purposes. The only
but is: don't change the sources without giving them away.

>>If the cursor keys are illogical that is a flaw.
>I suppose you are mistaking 'logical' and 'intuitive'. For me the intuitive
>cursor keys on my terminal are those with the arrows on. And those don't
>work intuitively under vi.

Well, newer implementations of vi are happy with cursor keys. Elvis even has
a menu (Wow! Look what I get when I press \ twice! :).

>On all the implementations of vi I've seen typing :
>"a hello <CRSR UP> world" works where "i hello <CSRS UP> world" does not!

Well, this version of Elvis does both (and more)...

-----------------------------

From: Peter Busser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Date: 18 Nov 92 01:06:34 GMT
To:       [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Daniel Smith) writes:

>Hey, I hope NT kicks the Unix vendors into a sudden spirit of mass
>cooperation.

And I hope that the above happens before NT really hits the market!

>were so hard to use.  He was implying that there shouldn't be User Groups;
>saying that "you don't see Washing Machine User Groups".

That's nonsense. But, IMHO, you shouldn't make computers harder to use than
necessary.

>    Anyways, I'll get off my "stop expecting them to be toasters
>anytime soon" soapbox.  I think Unix gets singled out quite a bit
>on this one.  A lot of it comes from its sheer power and flexibilty.
>It overwhelms the "learn barely enough to get by" mentality.

Good point. No system can satisfy the "learn barely enough to get by"
mentality. But, it doesn't need to be harder than necessary.

-----------------------------

From: Apostolos Lytras <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Date: 18 Nov 92 13:34:33 GMT
Sender: USENET News Admin <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: avalon
To:       [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Busser) writes:
>[e-mail] (Budi Rahardjo) writes:
>>>  - how much is the difference between a DOS/Windows app and a comparable
>>>    UNIX app? (Ok, let the flames come in! :)))
>>I am not sure what you mean by that ?
>Sorry that I was very unclear. I ment the price.

Well, let's see:

(let's take book editing software for an example)

FrameMaker:  about $3000 (if I convert the swiss price to US$, might be
                          less in the US, however)

You get almost the same under UNIX from

Emacs & TeX:       $0 (maybe you'll have to add media cost)

Or take some table editing programs (spreadsheets), that offer macros:

Excel:  well.... $500?
Perl:              $0

Maybe you start to understand now why I just *love* UNIX... it just
compares favorably with DOS, and I don't give a **** about
"user-friendly" interfaces which seem to be in the way all the time (to
the experienced user, at least).

Did you ever look at what the cost is for adding your DOS/Windows-PC to
a network? What a bunch of different hard- and software you need to get
this to work? Well... it was all built into my UNIX box, and it worked.
This is what I call user-friendliness.

Cheers
- A.
--
     [e-mail]           |   Apostolos Lytras
     [e-mail]    |   Informatik Club der Uni
     [e-mail]      |   Zuerich, SysAdmin

-----------------------------

From: Fergason <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Keywords: nn
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:47:08 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
To:       [e-mail]


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Paul Prescod) writes:
>>and will probably miss the end:
>>
>>I disagree.  Not having used too many OS's, I can only recall 2
>>that the help command did something.  Vax VMS, and Microsoft Dos 5.
>>I take that back, i just thought of Wylbur/MVSX, and VM/CMS.  I believe
>>help does something on those systems.
>
>Add in OS/2 and (I believe) AmigaDOS.  Plus many, many, many, command
>line oriented programs that are not operating systems like symbolic
>math packages and graphing packages.  Plus every text mode adventure
>game.

I believe the subject was operating systems.  There are lots of programs
that help is a command.

>>
>>Why should help do something at the command prompt?  I would much, much
>>rather have the hardcopy manual in my hand.  While online help might
>>be nice, I really just do not see its absence as an inherent flaw.
>
>You think the average university should issue everyone textual manuals?
>Especially for the huge mass of files that come with Unix???
>And what about when those files change?


no, the university should not issue manuals.  I studied and worked at a
university for the past 10 years, so i feel I have a grasp on how that
situation works.  the manuals were available, which is all I need.  I
could get the manual for anything, because there was one copy at the
help desks sprinkled around the campus.  If i buy software, i expect to
get manuals.

i consider manuals and online help to be two different things.

Kelly

-----------------------------

From: Budi Rahardjo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:58:29 GMT

al.hacktic.n
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: antares.cc.umanitoba.ca
To:       [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Peter Busser) writes:

>[e-mail] (Budi Rahardjo) writes:

>>>  - how much is the difference between a DOS/Windows app and a comparable
>>>    UNIX app? (Ok, let the flames come in! :)))
>>I am not sure what you mean by that ?

>Sorry that I was very unclear. I ment the price.

Yes, UNIX apps cost more, but that's because most of them are designed for
multi users. If you buy a multi user version of DOS/Windows app it would
cost the same. How much is Brief text editor (for example)?
I've some programs that have competitive (same) price as UNIX apps.

>>>If I for instance don't like the
>>>Motif window manager and I switch to the OPEN LOOK window manager. That makes
>>>that makes several things look different on the screen. But everything the
>>>application displays remains exactly the same.

>>That's what window manager supposed to do. (Like the name says
>>"window manager").

>Yes and the name says exactly what it does: manage windows. It doesn't handle
>buttons, scroll bars, check boxes, pop-up menus, etc., etc. An OPEN LOOK app
>is still an OPEN LOOK app when run under Motif. After a few clicks, you have
>as many user interfaces as applications, except for the borders.

That's not UNIX problem, it's the stupidity (cleverness) of app developers.
FrameMaker on UNIX would have the same interface as the Windows version.
If you run a DOS (or windows) application under Windows or OS/2, it would
still have the same user interface right ?

-- budi

--
Budi Rahardjo <[e-mail]>
Unix Support - Computer Services - University of Manitoba

-----------------------------

From: Budi Rahardjo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Date: 18 Nov 92 20:03:48 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: antares.cc.umanitoba.ca
To:       [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Peter Busser) writes:

>[e-mail] (Philippe Goujard) writes:

>>Anyway I don't think it is very fair to compare vi and winword. One is a
>>text editor created to edit mostly C sources the other is a word processor
>>with graphic capabilities.

>I agree with that, compare it for instance with OS/2's E.EXE or Windows'
>NOTEPAD.EXE. They're very limited, but very easy to use.

That's not fair either. Compare it with "textedit" (or crisp) under Openwindows.

>>Another problem to overcome is that many terminal emulators don't work too
>>well : they treat certain keys locally. When you press F1 on some terminal
>>emulators it doesnt send F1 to the remote machine and calls the local help
>>menu.

>That's not the case for the PC terminal emulators I know. Most use some kind of
>ALT combination.

I thought F1 is supposed to be a standard HELP key for Dos/Windows programs :-)

-- budi
--
Budi Rahardjo <[e-mail]>
Unix Support - Computer Services - University of Manitoba

-----------------------------

From: Budi Rahardjo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (long)
Date: 18 Nov 92 20:06:10 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: antares.cc.umanitoba.ca
To:       [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Apostolos Lytras) writes:

 ...
>Or take some table editing programs (spreadsheets), that offer macros:

>Excel:  well.... $500?
>Perl:              $0

add
sc (or xspread)    $0

-- budi
--
Budi Rahardjo <[e-mail]>
Unix Support - Computer Services - University of Manitoba

-----------------------------

From: LineNoise <linnoise@bigboy>
Subject: FTP'able Unix tutorials
Date: 18 Nov 92 02:06:11 GMT
Sender: "NetWork News (readnews" <[e-mail]>
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at BRL.MIL
To:       [e-mail]

I'm looking for Unix tutorial files that I can get through anonymous FTP.
Any information or list of sites would be greatly appreciated.

---Linenoise

-----------------------------

From: SW International <[e-mail]>
Subject: Question: How to get comd line arg of processes
Date: 18 Nov 92 04:04:29 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: solomon.technet.sg
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
To:       [e-mail]



I'm writing a C program which needs to obtain the command line
arguments of other running processes. Actually, 'ps -af' does
the job quite nicely, but due to other constraints, I need to
incorporate that function within my program.

I've not done much system programming before. Please advise if
you know how it can be achieved and the pitfalls I need to watch
out.

Thanks.
--
cheewai                 ---------- __o
[e-mail]        -------- _`\<,_
[e-mail]    ------- (*)/ (*)
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----------------------------

From: "John F. Haugh II" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Changing the owner of a process
Date: 18 Nov 92 05:38:32 GMT
To:       [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed Posnak) writes:

[ This is actually one of the answers he quoted.  Mark Buda is the
  writer ... ]

>The uid, in every version of Unix I've seen, is stored in the proc
>structure in the kernel. You should be able to fiddle with this at
>will in a device driver, and since it's in the proc structure and not
>the u area, it'll always be there even if the process is swapped out.
>It *should* be just a matter of searching for the entry and changing
>it.

The UIDs are stored in the (struct user).  They are u.u_uid and u.u_ruid.
Without giving away too much, that's where the system looks for things
like access() and so on.  For a really bad time, check out the source
to suser().  It will convince you of this fact.

>This technique should also serve to implement something like renice()
>under Xenix, which doesn't have it. (The nice value also being stored
>in the proc structure.)

Unfortunately, now that we know the data is in the (struct user),
I won't be getting out my source to a XENIX renice ...  This also
means that the device driver idea won't work since the other processes
u-area may be anywheres.
--
John F. Haugh II                  [  TSAKC  ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: [phone]           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: [e-mail]

-----------------------------

From: Jerry Frain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD? (very long)
Date: 18 Nov 92 06:43:26 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: depot.cis.ksu.edu
To:       [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Paul Prescod) writes:

> And for me, who can forget and type qw instead of wq, a prompt
> "haven't saved yet" would be nice.  BTW, this is not asking for
> superflurous time wasting prompting.  VI will NOT LET YOU QUIT with
> a Q.  It must be wq or Q!.  So if I type Q, why not ask me if I
> meant WQ?  Easier for the user, easeir for the power user that
> forgets.

Friendliness and easiness to use varies from user to user.  So use the
editor you find friendly, and let others use the editor they find
friendly, and quit yer bitchin'.

BTW, I use GNU Emacs (on my UNIX box), which beats the snot out
anything that runs on a DOS thing, as well as vi.

> That's fine...your keyboard doesn't have an F1 key and you don't
> want help.  My keyboard DOES have an F1 key, and unix doesn't have a
> standard F1 key.

Any program that might run on a variety of terminals and relies on the
existence of function keys is inherently crippled.

F1 is not an intuitive label, I don't see the need for it AT ALL in
the world of "user friendliness".  Certainly a key labelled "help"
makes much more sense (though not in the context of UNIX).

> VI is decaying.

Bit-rot?

Jerry Frain

-----------------------------

From: Philip Craig <[e-mail]>
Subject: I/O mapping from /bin/login
Date: 18 Nov 92 07:50:46 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
To:       [e-mail]

Hi. I'm trying to write a program which will call up a remote modem
and let the user login (as a dial back security measure).

I have it almost working (thanks for source contributions guys), but now
something *very weird* is happening.

The program runs very successfully, calling up my remote modem and
displaying "login:" on the terminal. It then awaits input from the
remote modem and upon getting <cr> prints "Password:" on the remote
modem.

All is good up to this point, but now things go strangely. Somehow,
/bin/login changes where it expects its input from at this point. It
awaits input from the starting terminal of the dialout program. If it
is given a bad password, the program will then print "login:" on the
correct remote terminal again, and *again await input* from the correct,
remote, location. This can be repeated for as many bad logins as /bin/login
allows.

If a correct password is supplied (from the wrong terminal, of course) then
the user's login shell is started, any .cshrc output appears in the correct,
remote, location, then the shell freezes awaiting input from the starting
terminal of the dial program. Not helpful.

The terminal is having /bin/login pointed at it by the following lines:

    /*
     * Redirect /bin/login's stdin, stdout and stderr (no error
     * checking here.)
     */
    dup2( fd, 0);
    dup2( fd, 1 );
    dup2( fd, 2 );
    dup2( fd, 3 );

    /*
     * Execute /bin/login with the serial line as its stdin, stdout
     * and stderr.
     */
    execl("/usr/etc/getty", "usr/etc/getty", "D2400", "-", (char *) 0);

Any problem here. The descriptor in fd is the one that successfully
read and wrote characters to the modem for the dialing command.

Please reply by e-mail--I can't keep up with the volume in here.

Thanks in advance,
--
   _/_/_/ _/  _/ _/ _/     _/ _/_/_/ _p_h_i_l_i_p_@_r_e_s_e_a_r_c_h_._c_a_n_o_n_._o_z_._a_u   _--_|\
  _/  _/ _/  _/ _/ _/     _/ _/  _/  Phone: [phone]        /      \
 _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/     _/ _/_/_/   Fax:   [phone]        \_.--._/
_/     _/  _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/     PO Box 313 North Ryde 2113 AUSTRALIA  v

-----------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: FTP question.
Date: 18 Nov 92 08:31:18 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: acvax1
Nntp-Posting-User: cvadrayb
To:       [e-mail]

Well, this is probably a stupid question, but I can't for the life of me
figure out how to read (as in more or page) a remote file while using FTP.

Please, can someone spare me my suffering?!?

Kevin
[e-mail]
(Yeah, ok - So I use my VMS account as a mailbox - thats only because my
 UNIX account it full..)

-----------------------------

From: Tom Parker <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: FTP question.
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:36:03 GMT
Sender: USENET Maintenance <[e-mail]>
To:       [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Well, this is probably a stupid question, but I can't for the life of me
>figure out how to read (as in more or page) a remote file while using FTP.
>
>Please, can someone spare me my suffering?!?
>
>Kevin
>[e-mail]
>(Yeah, ok - So I use my VMS account as a mailbox - thats only because my
> UNIX account it full..)

It depends on your particular implementation of FTP, but this works for me:

      get remote.file "|more"
--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tom Parker             |  National Center for Atmospheric Research |
| [e-mail]  |  [phone]                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

-----------------------------

From: Lars Soltau <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: what does 8-bit clean mean ?
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:30:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: ncc1701.stgt.sub.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
To:       [e-mail]

>>>>> On 16 Nov 1992 14:53:08 -0500,
 [e-mail] (Liming Ren) said:

> Somewhere I read that the C-compiler cc is not 8-bit clean. I am not sure
> what It means?

It means that the C compiler can't handle 8bit identifiers, e.g.
Nasenbdr (you might see the d on the left as v or \344, depending on
your configuration). Most C compilers can handle 8bit characters in
strings and comments, though.

> Also from the manpage of lex in UNIX, it says:

>      The lex command is  not  changed  to  support  8-bit  symbol
>      names,  as  this  would  produce lex source code that is not
>      portable between systems.

> Does this mean that lex can only be used for lexical analysis of text
> of ascii code 0-127?

I don't know about lex, but flex has an option for exactly that, i.e.
producing an 8bit scanner. The comment above only refers to identifiers,
not the input text.
--
Lars Soltau    bang: <insert ridiculously long path>        BIX: -- no bucks --
        smart: [e-mail]

Will kein Gott auf Erden sein, sind wir selber Goetter.

-----------------------------

From: Karl Glazebrook <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tcsh-like subroutine
Date: 18 Nov 92 09:45:28 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: dur.dust6
To:       [e-mail]

Well apparently the answer is the GNU readlines package available from
any good ftp site, e.g. prep.ai.mit.edu.

I built it and it works a treat!

Many thanks to all those who replied.

Karl.
---
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Karl Glazebrook,      | INTERNET:   [e-mail]           |
| Dept. of Physics,     |    JANET:   [e-mail]           |
| Univ. of Durham,      |     SPAN:   19463::DUVAD::KGB                      |
| United Kingdom.       |      FAX:   [phone]                           |
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------

From: KGGjerde <[e-mail]>
Subject: Milliseconds !!
Date: 18 Nov 92 13:09:06 GMT
Sender: Kurt George Gjerde <[e-mail]>
To:       [e-mail]


   Programming question:


   Is there a way I can get "flowting" time in milliseconds?

   I've tried using clock and gettimeofday but they update in
   variable chunks.

   I'm writing an animation program and would like having the
   frames displayed in a steady rate.


K.

-----------------------------

From: Brian Montgomery <[e-mail]>
Subject: mapping extended keyboard in vi/ksh
Date: 18 Nov 92 14:33:05 GMT
Sender: Usenet Administrator <[e-mail]>
To:       [e-mail]

hi netters,
       I need your expertise in vi to help figure out this problem.

I want to map the extended keyboard to some macros in vi.

Like for example I want to map the
pageup key to
pagedown key to
home   key to :1G
end    key to :G


Another problem is mapping of the arrow keys.

I use the kornshell and I would like to map the arrow keys to
up arrow to k
down arrow to j
right arrow to l
left arrow to h
home key to ^
end key to $



Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Emailing me your responses would be a good idea
as I don't frequent the net often. I will summarise and post , if
I get enough requests (> 10).

Thanks in advance

-----------------------------

From: Bruce McCullough <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: UNIX Training
Date: 18 Nov 92 14:35:00 GMT
To:       [e-mail]

>1) are there any companies which teach UNIX topics such as system
>   management, networking, etc? addresses? prices?
   Take a peek in Unix world and Unix Review. There are many companies
   that will send you demo disks and misc. Most of these are somewhat
   expensive.

>2) what are the most popular magazines in the UNIX area?
    For me the two I mentioned above but I'm sure other netters will
    give you some more titles.

Although you did say mail me directly heres my response:
One reason I like to go ahead and post to the group instead of mailing
directly is that there is usually someone else with the same question
although it could also be done in several different ways this reaches
more people and saves a lot of mailing back and fourth.
--
Robert B. McCullough-Computer Operations Tech.
Registrar Data Systems
Georgia Institute of Technology
Internet: [e-mail]

-----------------------------

From: Phillip Godwin <[e-mail]>
Subject: text search software
Date: 18 Nov 92 14:40:12 GMT
Sender: Usenet News <[e-mail]>
X-Xxdate: Wed, 18 Nov 92 09:42:25 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
To:       [e-mail]

I am working on an UNIX-based application (running on HP 400 and 700
series workstations) that will among other things allow a user to
search a large number of text files for a string.  We had planned
to parse grep output for the needed search result information,
but grep is just too slow.

What we are looking for is a text search program (commercial or
shared) that we can call from within our application.  Does anyone
out there have any experience with UNIX searching software?  I
would just like to get an idea of what is out there and then follow
up on any interesting leads.

If you can help, please email [e-mail].

Thanks...Phil
 -------------------------------------------------
   Phillip Godwin    ||   Northern Telecom
   [e-mail]    ||   Product Verification
   [phone]    ||   RTP, NC
 -------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------

From: Murray Spiegel <[e-mail]>
Subject: function calls for awkcc code
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:32:23 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: song.bellcore.com
To:       [e-mail]

We have developed an application using (n)awk, and convert to C
using awkcc when we want to run the program (for purposes of speed up).

The program takes input from stdin and writes to stdout.
(When stuff is read into an awk program some other variables
like $0, NF, etc, are also set.)

We want to change the input/output mechanism of our program,
specifically the awkcc generated version, as that is what
we will be using in the final product.

We want our program to be implemented as a _function call_.

That is, instead of reading stuff from stdin, our C program
is passed a parameter which would be the input string, and returns
an output string (instead of writing to stdio). As our program takes
a long time to initialize (it has a very large BEGIN structure),
we do not want to do the initialization for every input.

The awkcc generated code is very obscure, and it seems a non-trivial
task to implement our awkcc generated program as a function call.
We did locate the function which opens the input as a stream of type FILE *.
However, it seems trying to change that would in turn entail changing/rewriting
a whole bunch of code. We are looking for help to solve this problem.

One way to get around this problem is to have a parent process which
connects via pipes in both directions to a child process (our program)
which is started up once.  We then communicated with the parent C
program.   But in our case, we DO NOT want to have about 48 different
child processes running for 48 the different sources which can access
our program on one machine.

That's why we are looking into implementing our program as a function call.

Anyone who can offer some help, please send me email.  Thank you!

[e-mail]

-----------------------------

From: Jan Roger Wilkens <[e-mail]>
Subject: SIGS in SoftMail
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:54:29 GMT
Sender: Mr News <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: hpx13.aid.no
To:       [e-mail]

I've just started to use SoftMail (part of HP's SoftBench package), the package
looks great, but I can't figure out how to make it automaticall include sigs
in my mail messages. I can't find anything about in the manual either...
Can anybody help?

--
                               Jan Roger Wilkens
                     Student at Agder Engeeniering School
                               Computer Technics

                           EMail: [e-mail]

-----------------------------

From: Eric Luyten <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Suppressing the 'w' command
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:26:34 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
To:       [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Fahad A Hoymany) writes:
|> Could someone tell me how to stop other people from checking up on me
|> with the 'w' command?

rm /usr/ucb/w

(And the villains will start using 'ps'...)

To cut it short : there's no hiding.


Eric Luyten, BFUCC.

-----------------------------

From: Tim Casey <13501TMC@msu>
Subject: Internet question
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:58:49 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
To:       [e-mail]


     Does anyone know the cost associated with getting Internet access from
home (i.e. a direct hookup compared to sharing time on a server)?
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please respond to:
[e-mail]

-----------------------------

From: FEK print <[e-mail]>
Subject: Can telnetd preserve environment ? Can I get one that does ?
Keywords: telnetd, environ
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:18:31 GMT
To:       [e-mail]

Preamble: The system is SCO unix 3.2.2.

Can anyone tell me, if I can get telnetd to preserve it's start-up env.
var.s?  What I'm trying to do is this: /etc/wrapper is small program, that
will read the peer-address of its input-socket, set an env.var. (say IP) to
that adress, and then exec its arguments.  Thus when I put:

telnet stream tcp    nowait  NOLUID /etc/wrapper telnetd

in inetd.conf, it ought to make the IP available to telnetd and all of its
children (login, sh).

But no.  No matter what I try, my IP gets lost somewhere.  I have som kind
of hint, that login will destroy most of its env. unless started with a -p
option, but how can I do that (since telnetd starts login, the way *it* damn
pleases)?

Maybe im doing this the wrong way; Can I get the sources for a telnet that
will report it's IP-adresse. and perhaps make it available for the subsequent
processes?

((Gripe: I don't really understand why telnetd doesn't care *anything* for
it's peer adress, but takes great pain to report terminal device id.  IMHO
the latter thing is very maginally useful, but the peer address is handy
for determining login terminal characteristics a.s.o.  I'm aware, that
terminals were once hardwired, but *dammit* that's ages ago.) Sorry about that)


-----------------------------

From: Barry Margolin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Can telnetd preserve environment ? Can I get one that does ?
Keywords: telnetd, environ
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:48:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: telecaster.think.com
To:       [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (FEK print) writes:
>Maybe im doing this the wrong way; Can I get the sources for a telnet that
>will report it's IP-adresse. and perhaps make it available for the subsequent
>processes?

You can get telnetd from ftp.uu.net and any other archive servers that
contain the free BSD sources.
--
Barry Margolin
System Manager, Thinking Machines Corp.

[e-mail]          {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar

-----------------------------

From: abraham <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Passing args to login(1)
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:33:04 GMT
To:       [e-mail]

> From: [e-mail] (George Jetson)
> Subject: Passing args to login(1)
> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:58:21 GMT
>
> I am pretty sure that under at least some versions of Unix/login, you can
> pass args in along with your login-id, and that these args would then be
> available to your .login/.profile.  See below:
>
>         login: pynq and green
>         Password:
>
>         Then $1 should be "and" and $2 should be "green".
>
> However, this doesn't seem to work under my current version of login
> (and version of SunOS [4.something])
>
> So, my question is: "Am I imagining things, or am I doing it wrong?"
>
> I could of course ask questions in the login script and branch
> accordingly, but it would be cleaner to be able to do it as a command
> line parameter.

    if you only want my opinion, then you are "doing it wrong",
but if you want information you can use then here it goes: You can pass

environment variables to your process but NOT parmeters
Under UNIX SVR3.2 (not familiar with prev. rel) login is defined as:

login [name [env-var ...]]

login: root    TERM=vt100 NAME="unix guru" OPTIONS="NOMENU,EXPERT"
password:

after login is successful, try this:
echo $TERM $NAME $OPTIONS
they should be set to the values you assigned to them at login.  These
variables are governed by the same rules as ordinary environemnt vars
so you may NOT use 1=first_parm 2=second_parm and then use $1 & $2
login is smart and will log you out if you use an invalid identifier.


good luck

-----------------------------

From: Paul Prescod <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: IS UNIX DEAD (long)
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:44:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
To:       [e-mail]

>Define "user friendly". Aren't the people who like vi users too?

They are users.  And important users.  And they shouldn't be neglected.  I'm
sure vi is small enough that it can be included with every version of unix
until time ends, just like dos' EDLIN.  But there should be an alternative,
and not emacs.  An easy to use, friendly alternative.  That alternative should
come on every unix system.  It should be powerful and configurable.

Let's face it: unix users are users too.  But they are a miniscule subset of
the number of people who COULD be using unix.  Not only instead of DOS and
Windows, but instead of not using computers at all.  A powerful, compatible,
scalable, layered unix could make more people less afraid of computers then
the plethora of incompatibilities we have now.

-----------------------------

From: Rob Freyder <rob@hp11>
Subject: Re: Searching for E-mail package
Date: 18 Nov 92 20:14:58 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: comp.sys.sun.admin
Nntp-Posting-Host: hp11.aws.waii.com
To:       [e-mail]

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tim Evans) writes:

>[e-mail] (Karl Nicholas) writes:

>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (ANDY KUMEDA) writes:
>>>
>>>We are currently searching for E-mail/Office Automation packages that will
>>>serve several thousand users based on the following criteria:
>>>
>>>  1) Must support X-Window (OpenLook or Motif) either through an X-terminal
>>>     or a PC running an X-server.

Check out Z-mail

>>>  2) Must also support PCs running DOS, with a TCP/IP network connection.

You  might  want to further clarify this requirement. I assume Windows 3.x
is not in use so you are probably talking about a character based version.


>>>  3) In addition, a non-X version (character-based -- ASCII terminals) is
>>>     preferable, but not required.

I believe Z-mail has this or is working on it.

>>>  4) Must be able to 'customize' -- ie original text to be replied or
>>>     forwarded should not be modifiable.

This  could  be  difficult  ...  When  I reply I usually do just what I am
doing  here.  I  embed  my  replies  in  the  original text and frequently
delete the unnecessary parts.

>>>  5) Must support SMTP.

Not a problem.

>>>  6) Vendor must have good technical support.
                         ^^^^
                                 Hmmmm.   8-)



--
Rob Freyder                             Atlas Wireline a division of
____    ____     ____                   Western Atlas International Inc.
\   \  /   /\   /   /\                  A Litton / Dresser Company
 \   \/   /  \ /   /  \                 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  \  /   / \  /   /\   \                Internet  :  [e-mail]
   \/___/   \/___/  \___\               Voice     :  [phone]

-----------------------------

From: Ioi Kim Lam <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: IS UNIX DEAD
Date: 18 Nov 92 20:17:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: pixmap.seas.upenn.edu
To:       [e-mail]

In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>; from "Brian K. Talley" at Nov 16, 92 7:52 am

Brian K. Talley
>
>
> >> Total B.S.!!    I'd love to have a user friendly application and VI
> >>is it for me. It grips me to hear DOS users say "VI it's to hard to
> >>learn". Come on thats why UNIX has got power, DOS doesn't......
> >
> >If you think that being hard to use means power, go and write a book about
> >it. I am sure that would be a best seller.
>
> I believe what Mr. McCullough was saying, although it was poorly worded, is
> that many Unix applications require a little more effort on the part of the
> user to learn all the features an application has to offer, as opposed to
> DOS, which has little to offer in comparison (apples VS. oranges).
>

    I see your point. I agree that currently many powerful
applications are hard to use, but that is due to their poor design. I hope
you would understand that a lot of "powerful applications" you have
mentioned (in your previous postings) were made more than a decade ago.
The user interface technology has developed so much since the beginning of
the 80's and a lot of the features in the older applications can be and
have been incorporate into the new GUI.

    Of course, I agree that the current GUI technology has its
downsides. It is still in its infancy. I think what we should do is trying
to improve it, not clinging to the old methods.

    I believe what the programmer should do is to deliver the power of
the computer to every user, regardless to their knowledge in computing.
How good is a powerful application that no one can use?

    Let us look at the impossibility. Our ancestors have conquered
many impossibilities. They may laugh at us if we now say "it is just
*impossible* to make a powerful application easy to learn and easy to use".
I would always acknowledge the difficulty, but not the impossibility.

    If a user finds an application too difficult to use, that is not
his fault. That is the designer's fault. And believe me, we can correct
it.

Sincerely,

    Ioi.

========================================      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
IOI LAM ( footnote : the Binary Man )  |      |  ( . )    ( . )   |
 ---------------------------------------|     [  #       V          ]
Box 0157, 3820 Locust Walk             |      |      [+++++]      |
Philadelphia, PA 19103-6134            |      |___________________|
 ---------------------------------------|       _|_______________|__
[e-mail]               |  =>--|        101         |--<=
_______________________________________|      |____________________|
                                               _|_             _|_

-----------------------------

From: Boyd Hays <[e-mail]>
Subject: Any terminfo compilers available?
Date: 18 Nov 92 20:27:30 GMT
Sender: news <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org
To:       [e-mail]

Hello,
    I need to write a program that parses terminfo source files. There was
    something available about 5 years ago, a small lex scanner, but I can't
    find it anywhere.

    Does anyone know where I might find the source for such a beast?

Thanks in advance,

Boyd Hays
[e-mail]

-----------------------------

From: Barry Brown <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: C Source Code for Pattern Matching
Keywords: text pattern matching source
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:21:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: impending.ucsd.edu
To:       [e-mail]

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eduardo Rodriguez) writes:


>In article <leb.721935245@edgar>, [e-mail] (Larry Bright) writes:
>> Could anyone tell me where I could find C source code for some
>> simple text pattern matching s/w, preferably with a syntax and
>> semantics based on "regular expressions" as in grep, awk, sed, etc.
>> Anything that implements a non-trivial subset of these functions
>> would be useful.

>The agrep package (approximate pattern matching) has many of the grep functions
>and other stuff besides.  You can pick it up from cs.arizona.edu using
>anonymous ftp.

Doing "man regexp" on my Sun turned up a C library for regular expression
matching.  The routines you need may be right under your nose!

--
Barry E. Brown        --        \  UCSD Instructional Computing Center
bebrown@ucsd.{edu,uucp,bitnet}   \   Anime Stuff FTP Server administrator
Somewhere in San Diego, CA.....   \    (ftp network.ucsd.edu [132.239.254.203])
"Stimpy, sometimes your wealth of ignorance astounds me." -- Ren

-----------------------------

From: Ioi Kim Lam <[e-mail]>
Subject: WHAT IS UNIX? (was IS UNIX DEAD?)
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:22:58 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: pixmap.seas.upenn.edu
To:       [e-mail]


Lots of discussions have been going on about the topic whether Unix is
dead. From my (biased) observation, many people have been missing the
point. Before you posting more irrelevant materials, can you guys think
twice - " What is Unix? What am I defending / attacking? ".

I don't know  what Unix is, but I can give a list what Unix is not.


Unix is not VI, EMACS or C-SHELL
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    These stuffs are only the *applications* of Unix. They distinguish
Unix (somewhat notoriously) from other OS's. Yet they were designed and
implemented before my grandad was born. They do have their merits. I just
don't think by arguing about their merits can help the future of Unix.
What really makes Unix special is its capability in multi-tasking,
security, portability, distributed processing .... and the list goes on
and on. But please, exclude VI.
    (To please the VI fans - VI is something about personal taste, and
I suppose all of you love French wine, too. Please post your support of VI
to soc.culture.????. I would love to read them)


Unix is not a toy for the computer scientists
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    The reason of the development of computing originated from
outsides of the field. Now that we have such a splendid OS like Unix, why
should we restricted its use to the universities and the computer
literates? Why shouldn't a casual user be able to use it? In a few years
everyone will be running a 1000 MIPS PC in their home. They need the power
of Unix. And God (aka Computer Scientists), let these poor soles have it.


Unix does not have to appear as a complicated system
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Yes, Unix *is* a complicated system, but it doesn't have to appear
so. Not every user has to handle this complexity. One system needs only
ONE sysadmin. As long as I can get my Ferarri fixed by someone, I am
absolutely eligible of owning and driving it.


Unix is not a static object
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Why can't Unix evolve? By stressing how wonderful Unix is now can
only limit one's vision about the future of computing. OK, I repeat, Unix
is wonderful, but it still has some problems. Find them out and fix them.
Most of the supporters of the old features of Unix are, surprisingly, very
young computer scientists. It is interesting to see many young men/women
in a young industry talk like their grandparents. Where have they lost
their vision and creativity?


Unix is not immortal
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Now there comes the tough part. Unix is not dead, I assure you,
but it will be. Man is not immortal, nor is his creations. No matter how
brilliantly designed and how adaptive Unix was, its foundations will
become its limitations. In a rapidly changing world new products will come
out and replace the existing ones. The replacement of Unix is a sign of
progression. I love my old friend Unix but I would be very happy to see it
die. They day that Unix finally steps down will be an milestone in the
history of the computer, just as was the day when Unix was born.

                       ioi the binary man

-----------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Capturing tty output?
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:32:49 GMT
To:       [e-mail]

Hi there all,

    I have question about snooping other users. :)

    Is it possible to capture the output of someones tty screen?

    ie... a sample list of users from 'w' commmand..

    brian    ttyp9     4:38pm    50                -csh
    brian    ttypa     4:38pm     3                more -s /tmp/man17683

    Is it possible to capture to a file the output of the ttypa scrren.
    Without brian knowing. :)

    I have Unix on my amiga at home (don't laugh) and wonder if it is
    possible.

    Please reply via email...

    Thanks Darren

PS Please don't flame me.

--
--
Darren Spencer          Comp Sci Student         RMIT Bundoora (RIP PIT)
============================================================================
Email:        [e-mail]        [e-mail]

-----------------------------

From: Jason M Ferguson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Shell Programming for Beginners
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:38:55 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
To:       [e-mail]


    Thanks to all the people who helped me with the c language
problem, with the help I received I got the thing up and running
pronto.
    My question this time is this:
        Is there a source on the net for learning to
    program a UNIX shell? I'm trying to create a menuing
    shell, simple enough, but need some sort of reference.

    'Preciate the help people. Hasta La Vista.

[------------------------------------------------------------------------]
[ Jason Ferguson                   |  "No more Mister Nice Guy..."       ]
[ [e-mail]         |                                     ]
[------------------------------------------------------------------------]

-----------------------------

From: Michael O'Henly <[e-mail]>
Subject: It ain't a 24x80 world anymore. Or is it?
Date: 18 Nov 92 23:29:17 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: sol.uvic.ca
To:       [e-mail]


    A few days ago I posted a query about how to increase the number
of rows displayed in a terminal window so that 'full-screen' commands
like emacs could make use 35 lines instead of the usual 24.

    I got some responses that suggested "stty rows 35" or "setenv
LINES 35". I've tried both and, while they do alter the terminal's
behaviour, they don't give me a 35-line screen. What I'm getting looks
like this: lines 1-24 after a screen-clear display correctly, but
lines 25-35 pile up on top of each other on the 24th line.

    So maybe I didn't ask the right question. What I'm trying to do is
make the best use of my laptop screen when I dial into my machine
using a modem and terminal emulator. Does the fact that I'm dialing in
make a difference? I'm sure there _must_ be a way of working with more
than a 24x80 display under these circumstances.

    Any and all suggestions would be appreciated!

    Michael


--
           Michael O'Henly |     o   | 604-721-7623 (604-721-8215 fax)
    Library Systems Office |  --/--  | [e-mail]
    University of Victoria |  __\    | [e-mail]
    Victoria, B.C., Canada |     \   | [e-mail]

-----------------------------

From: Vladimir Stavitsky <[e-mail]>
Subject: cnews help
Date: 18 Nov 92 23:30:20 GMT
To:       [e-mail]

Hi, netters.
This question has to do with cnews software, so may be
it is more appropriate to post it to some other newsgroup,
but i am not sure which one, so here it is:

i have just installed cnews on the server which is our mailhost -
and everything works fine. Unfortunately, i had to reinstall it
on some other machine; it works ok so far - i was able to post
articles to the test group; i used rsh to execute uux on the
mailhost (changed sys file under /usr/lib/news);

my problem is: what happens when uunet sends batches to my mailhost?
as far as i understand, rnews still must be available there, right?
another words, i can not clean up my mailhost in terms of cnews
software, can i?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Vlad

-----------------------------

From: Ade Barkah <[e-mail]>
Subject: How does a mortal become a UNIX WIZARD ?
Date: 19 Nov 92 00:15:12 GMT
Sender: Ade Barkah <[e-mail]>
To:       [e-mail]


What does it take for a man, er, person, to become a Unix Wizard ?

Which bibles should we study ? (after memorizing O'Rileys to become
  an X Wizzie ?)

How many kernels (and which ones) we need to take apart and reassemble ?

Some doth say that the only way thou shall gain salvation is to
partake in the (sacrireligios) ceremony of rewriting Unix from
scratch.

So, oh, mylord, how does a mortal become a Unix Wizard ?


(next question: how does a newbie become a net.personality ?)

(ade barkah)
--
Internet  : [e-mail]    (NeXT Mailable)
CompuServe: 74160,3404

-----------------------------

From: "Niemeyer (Pat" <[e-mail]>
MMDF-Warning:  Parse error in original version of preceding line at BRL.MIL
Subject: What's wrong with select() ?
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:55:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bcserv.wustl.edu
To:       [e-mail]


I'm totally confused.

I find that I cannot get the select() system call to
correctly identify when there are characters waiting
on a file descriptor that I have opened with 'open()'.

It *does* seem to work for the fd associated with stdin.

The attached piece of code illustrates the difficulty.

It simply reads chars, at 1/2 second intervals, from either
either stdin or the device given as it's argument.
Before each read, it shows the status that select() returns as
to whether there are chars to be read.
(1 = pending, 0 = buffer empty)

The idea is this:

    run it on your tty, (first as stdin, then as an argument to be opened)

    type a blurb of garbage, (and hit return if not in cbreak mode)

    and watch as it reads off character by character.

What I find is that it works perfectly for the first case (run from stdin)
but totally fails for the second (where it opens your tty).

I have tried many variations on this:
I have used a real serial port as opposed to a ptty.
and I have verified that the termio settings don't effect the problem
as far as I can tell with the information reported by 'stty -a'.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

/*----------------------------------------------*/
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/time.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <fcntl.h>

char getch();
int rdchk();

main(argc, argv)
int argc; char *argv[];
    {
    int iofd;

    setbuf(stdout, NULL);

    if ( argc == 2 )
        if ( (iofd = open(argv[1], O_RDWR)) == -1)
            {
            printf("openerror\n");
            exit(1);
            }
        else
            printf("Opened %s\n", argv[1]);
    else
        {
        iofd=fileno(stdin);
        printf("Opened stdin\n");
        }

    while(1)
        {
        usleep(500000);
        rdchk(iofd);
        getch(iofd);
        }
    }

char getch(iofd)
int iofd;
    {
    int got;
    char ch;

    if ( (got = read(iofd, &ch, 1) ) == -1 )
        {
        printf("read error\n");
        return(-1);
        }

    if (got > 0)
        {
        printf("(%c)", ch);
        return(ch);
        }
    else
        {
        printf("timeout");
        return(-1);
        }
    }

/* return true if a read will not block */
int rdchk( fd )
int fd;
    {
    int got;
    fd_set fdset;
    struct timeval timeout;

    FD_ZERO (&fdset);
    FD_SET (fd, &fdset);
    memset(&timeout, 0, sizeof(timeout));

    got = select (1, &fdset, NULL, NULL, &timeout);
    printf("select returned %u\n\r", got);
    return( got > 0 );
    }

/*----------------------------------------------*/

/* [e-mail] */

--


Pat

-----------------------------

From: "David W. Rankin Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: sudo with hidden password?
Date: 20 Nov 92 07:07:23 GMT
To:       [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>I have been using the "sudo" command from the Unix System
>Administration Handbook by Nemeth/Snyder/Seebass and like it
>very much. However, I would like to find if someone has a
>modified version of it that would hide your password instead
>of displaying it for all to see.
>                                     Thank you.

Just after glancing through the code, I'd say that what you could do is
(assuming your system echos characters back rather than relying on local
echo) place a system("stty -echo");, or the equivalent, and see if that
helps anything. Place that call before the input for the password, then
system("stty echo"); after it. I don't know if it works myself, since I
don't have a UNIX system to run sudo on yet [yet :)], but my guess would
bne that that would work.

Hope this helps,

--
"You know, I don't think Apple could damage the Mac more if the tried."
  -me, on the new pricing schemes on System 7.1, MacTCP 1.1.1, and MacX
--"When UK pays me money for my opinions, it can have them. Not before."--
David W. Rankin, Jr.,  Mac Archiver for f.ms.uky.edu   Packrat on IRC
Main address: [e-mail]  [e-mail] ...!gatech!ukma!rankin
         Alternates: [e-mail]  [e-mail]

-----------------------------


End of INFO-UNIX Digest
***********************