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Computer underground Digest Sun May 31, 1992 Volume 4 : Issue 24 Editors: Jim Thomas and Gordon Meyer (TK0JUT2@NIU.BITNET) Associate Editor: Etaion Shrdlu, Jr. Arcmeisters: Brendan Kehoe and Bob Kusumoto CONTENTS, #4.24 (May 31, 1992) File 1-- Spring 2600 File 2-- Correction on "Cybermyth" Article File 3--Info from French CCC--One Year After File 4-- GEnie Transcript: Steve Cisler/"Data Highways" Issues of CuD can be found in the Usenet alt.society.cu-digest news group, on CompuServe in DL0 and DL4 of the IBMBBS SIG, DL1 of LAWSIG, and DL0 and DL12 of TELECOM, on Genie in the PF*NPC RT libraries, on the PC-EXEC BBS at (414) 789-4210, and by anonymous ftp from ftp.eff.org (192.88.144.4), chsun1.spc.uchicago.edu, and ftp.ee.mu.oz.au. To use the U. of Chicago email server, send mail with the subject "help" (without the quotes) to archive-server@chsun1.spc.uchicago.edu. European distributor: ComNet in Luxembourg BBS (++352) 466893. COMPUTER UNDERGROUND DIGEST is an open forum dedicated to sharing information among computerists and to the presentation and debate of diverse views. CuD material may be reprinted as long as the source is cited. Some authors do copyright their material, and they should be contacted for reprint permission. It is assumed that non-personal mail to the moderators may be reprinted unless otherwise specified. Readers are encouraged to submit reasoned articles relating to computer culture and communication. Articles are preferred to short responses. Please avoid quoting previous posts unless absolutely necessary. DISCLAIMER: The views represented herein do not necessarily represent the views of the moderators. Digest contributors assume all responsibility for ensuring that articles submitted do not violate copyright protections. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Moderators <tk0jut2@mvs.cso.niu.edu> Date: Sat, 30 May 1992 12:22:41 CDT Subject: File 1--Spring 2600 The Spring '92 issue of "2600: The Hacker Quarterly" is out, and it's another fine issue. Articles include MS DOS viruses and inadequate virus scanners, boxes and cruising through Unix, and security information on WWIV BBS software. There's the usual technical information and letters, and an overview of the Australian phone system. And more. The review of the month is the Steve Jackson game HACKER: THE COMPUTER CRIME CARD GAME (it gets a highly positive review). 2600 is a excellent value for $21 (U.S./Canada). More information can be obtained directly from the editor, Emmanuel Goldstein, at 2600@well.sf.ca.us, or: 2600 PO Box 752 Middle Island, NY 11953-0752 ------------------------------ From: Gene Spafford <spaf@CS.PURDUE.EDU> Date: Wed, 20 May 1992 11:52:28 EDT Subject: File 2--Correction on "Cybermyth" Article Gene Spafford reminds us that he was the original author of the article in Cu Digest 4.23 on the "myth of the dying child." Attribution to Spaf as the author was inadvertently left out as it made the rounds from its original posting to news.announce.important last year. Further, in formatting the article, the initials of the contributor of the article to CuD made it appear that the poster signed the original moderator comment by Mark Horton. We attribute the inadvertent omissions to the quirks of recursive circulation of messages, and are certain that those whose hands the message passed through intended no slight to the original author. Spaf indicates that the message is as he wrote it with the exception of some minor formatting changes, the bibliography, and the omission of a paragraph with UNICEF and Red Cross addresses. For those who missed it, the article was about the cybermyth of Craig Shergold, a "dying child," that circulated the nets. Like other cybermyths ("chocolate chip cookie recipe" and "FCC modem tax"), the post took on a life of its own and still occasionally can be seen. We are waiting for an ambitious reader to compile a list of similar cybermyths that have been net-spread periodically. But, do it before Sun Devil II hits. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 92 08:52 GMT From: Jean-Bernard Condat <0005013469@MCIMAIL.COM> Subject: File 3--Info from French CCC--One Year After DON'T HESITATE TO FOLLOW TO OTHER BULLETIN BOARDS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. June 6th, 1991 6:24 pm The French Police Judiciaire inculped of computer fraud (]462.2 of the French legislation) Jean-Bernard Condat, general secretary of the Chaos Computer Club France (cccf). The police said that like an hackers club (72 members in France) and 1,800 correspondents throughout the world) cannot be legal and found a crazy story of NUI (the well known BND2 code used from two years by all the people via Minitel, the French terminal) and inculped Jean-Bernard for paying US$1,000 pro month... "ad vita aeternam"! The anniversary of this day, the CCCF make a great fest with a lot of articles on computer hacking, etc. Don't hesitate to collaborate and/or send a message in this e-mail box for Jean-Bernard. Thank for your help. Don't hesitate to put this e-mail address on your mailing list... and to ask us for all your French questions. (bureau of) Jean-Bernard Condat Chaos Computer Club France (CCCF) B.P. 8005 69351 Lyon Cedex 08, France Tel.: +33 1 47 87 40 83 Fax.: +33 1 47 87 70 70. ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 92 19:04:48 EDT From: Gordon Meyer <72307.1502@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: File 4--GEnie Transcript: Steve Cisler/"Data Highways" ______________________________________________________ | | | The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable |______ |______________________________________________________| | | Sysops' GE Mail: PF$ RTC Sunday 9pm EDT: MOVE 545;2 |______ |___________________________________________________________| | | News, Current Events, Government, Societal Issues, Nonprofits | |________________________________________________________________| __________________________________________________________________ | Rights & responsibilities, government, politics, minority civil |_ | rights, volunteerism, nonprofit management, the media, the | | | environment, international issues, gay/lesbian/bisexual issues, | | | women & men, parenting, youth organizations and more! | | |__________________________________________________________________| | |__________________________________________________________________| ________ PF$ PF*NPC Sysops _____________ | |_ | Weekly RTC: |_ | The | | SHERMAN Tom Sherman | 9pm Eastern | | | PF*NPC | | SCOTT Scott Reed | on Sundays! | | | Staff: | | CHERNOFF Paul Chernoff | Type M545;2 | | |________| | GRAFFITI Ric Helton |_____________| | |________| SHERRY Sherry |_____________| This is a transcript of the RealTime Conference with Apple's Steve Cisler, a note librarian and data access pioneer, discussing access to the "data highways" and computer systems that will increasingly shape the world around us. An electronic meeting place for friends, family and national "town meetings," GEnie is an international online computer network for information, education and entertainment. For under $5.00/month, GEnie offers over 50 special interest bulletin boards and unlimited electronic mail at no extra charge during evenings, weekends and holidays. GEnie is offered by GE Information Services, a division of General Electric Company. In the Public Forum*NonProfit Connection, thousands of people every day discuss politics and a wide range of social and nonprofit issues. A neutral arena for all points of view, the PF*NPC is presented by Public Interest Media, a nonprofit organization devoted to empowering people through the socially productive use of information and communication technology. For more information about GEnie or the Public Forum, call 1-800-638-9636 or send electronic mail to tsherman@igc.org. Future real-time conferences, all beginning at 9 p.m. ET, include: Katie Hafner, author of Cyberpunk (May 24) Jerry Berman, Esq., Electronic Frontier Foundation (May 31) To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH. At the U#= prompt, type XTX88367,GENIE <RETURN>. The system will prompt you for information. Copyright (c)1992 Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RT and GEnie(R) May be redistributed as long as it is unedited and this notice appears. __________________________________________________________ -=(( The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable ))=- -==((( GEnie Page 545 - Keywords PF or NPC )))==- -=((__________________________________________________________))=- <[Tom] SHERMAN> Let me say a few quick words of introduction . . . Welcome to the second in this month's series of RTCs on Technology and Society! Please check the schedule, posted in our Announcements topic (cat 1/topic 3) for the other events . . . These realtime conferences raise important issues for the future -- some of them already being discussed in BB Cat 7: Technology, Science and Society . You'll also find many excellent files in the Public Forum library. . Because we have a small, well-mannered group tonight <grin> . . . I'm going to leave the room open for everyone to talk, BUT .... it'll be a lot easier if you /RAIse your hand to be called on so that STeve only has to answer one question at a time . . . Now the PF*NPC is delighted to introduce Steve Cisler from Apple Computer. A former librarian, Steve is now internationally known for his involvement in . . . .issues involving public access to information and the networks that carry it. Here's Steve! GA <[Tom] SHERMAN> The room is open now . . . Steve will you say hello -- and anything else you want to say? GA <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I still consider myself a librarian, but I have been working a lot with national networking issues ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Steve, today's NY Times has a review of Neil Postman's latest book . . . in which he claims that technology has sapped us of our initiative and control . . . and I wonder if you see evidence of that happening in the world of online information. GA <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Yes, I read it. I think he chooses not to understand some of the positive aspects of technology, esp. interactive computing. ... <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I know that people have tried to show him the benefits of computer discussions. In fact, he was sent a discussion of his AMUSING OURSELVES TO DEATH (about TV) but he never responded. Re: lost of initiative and control. I think that loss of control over personal information as well as information generated by the govt seems out of our control ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Scott, your question? <SCOTT> Can you address the problems of making telecommunications more accessible to people? ga <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I think the interfaces, the modem setup or even elimination of such equipment will be important to attract a whole new class of users on to these and other systems. The barriers (including typing ability) are still great... Also, there is the problem of cost. Some places are providing public access to online services. Santa Monica City has public access PC's in libraries and public places. These have been used by non-computer... owners including the homeless who used them to negotiate with the city council for some services. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Ric, your question? <[Ric] GRAFFITI> How much does the hardware infrastructure have to do with how many people will utilize public data networks? Will we need desktop ISDN before it becomes widescale, or is it starting to becoming pervasive even now? GA <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Obviously, people are getting a lot of use out of 2400 bps systems, so the speed is not all that important. I do believe that new sorts of services will emerge from commercial providers and from amateurs when we get something like ISDN ... [garbled] ... If these short answers don't suffice, I'll try and answer in more detail by mail ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Marty, your question? <[MARTY] MKB> Steve, you cite cost. Why shouldn't consumers of information services pay the true cost of the information? Libraries have been energetic in seeking subsidized information. At some point, we taxpayers have to stop subsidizing everything. <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Part of my posting was clipped. sorry Many people believe that our country was based on access to information. It has been a big part of the democratic tradition. I do think there are many arguments about just how much should be subsidized... <[MARTY] MKB> This country is based on access to information. But I don't remember the constitutional arguments about who was supposed to pay for it. <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> In the 80's and 90's there seems to be far less support for what I would call an information commons, be it electronic or print, Systems such ... as the FreeNets in Cleveland, Peoria, Youngstown and online libraries such as Melvyl (Un. of California) are open to all callers and Internet users. They have turned nobody away except when all the ports are full. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Marty, follow up question? <[MARTY] MKB> I think what's important is the access to information. That issue is being addressed by the EFF. <[Tom] SHERMAN> My turn! . . . Is there any way to set a price for information? Should its cost be determined by what the market will pay? And is it technologically possible these days to control the distribution of information? <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I think that EFF is promoting access to the network by providing info about tools, the Net, and the policies. Now to Tom's question... I don't think that all information should be driven by market considerations. For instance the Smithsonian sells GIF files on CompuServe and America Online but will be giving the same ones away on the Internet. In fact, they will be better quality!... Controlling dist. of info: CD-ROM publishers can time date software to stop working after a certain time. Network providers are looking at models for metering smaller and smaller chunks of info, and I think encryption will be very very big in a couple of years ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Marty (or others), care to comment? <[MARTY] MKB> We're sitting here on an information utility, all enjoying access to a cornucopia of information, and we've priced it very effectively. And it's growing! We're getting the tools. <[Ric] GRAFFITI> I think the major focus on 'information' in our culture has been on how much money we can make from it, and not an any democratic process. Copyright law itself is based on protecting commercial interests. <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Well, copyright was originally intended to foster the spread of information by assuring that the creator would get some remuneration. That has been forgotten to some extent. ga <[Ric] GRAFFITI> How long will it be before we see other city, county, state or even the federal government online and accessible to the public at large? Access to current laws, referendums, email to elected officials, that sort of thing. GA <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> It's happening in different areas. Apple Library of Tomorrow has provided equipment grants to Access Colorado. The state wants to hook up all the libraries in Colorado... so that each citizen can reach them with a local call. Now, other agencies want to provide some of their databases and information for public access via this network (which will be on the Internet this year)... One problem is that some states want to re-sell the information and programs to access that info. It seems like a natural course to take for some MIS folks at state and local level... but it can make access to that info very expensive, if not totally out of reach to many. Given the touch budgets they are working with, there are no easy solutions. ga <[Ric] GRAFFITI> So UNIX is turning out to be a popular harward choice? GA <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Someone once said, "In Unix, no one can hear you scream." But yes, it is getting popular. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Randy, your question? <[Randy] R.ZEITMAN4> Do you think the accessibility of information will contribute to widening the gap between gov't and 'the people' as gov't will continue to take a more 'well, that information is available, why didn't you read it'. done <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Well, the inaccessibility should widen the gap. Also, many legislators fear the day when they start getting email. Heck, they are not listing their fax machines in some parts of Congress. I think all of us are... having a hard time dealing with the information fire-hose. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Randy, follow up question? <[Randy] R.ZEITMAN4> ..and what about we as people. It seems one day that a person will be able to live a whole life from the desktop because <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> As I said, I'll take email and try to answer, or else in the conferences. ga <[Ric] GRAFFITI> (Ever watched British Parliament in session? A member stands, and says "Question #34." The speaker stands and answers, "Answer #125." And on, and on.... I am picturing that. :) <[Randy] R.ZEITMAN4> the very need to developer 'ties' to other people by simply going out and talking to them will be eliminated. in other words, can information access cause alienation fo a whole society? <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> the last question was garbled. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Randy commented that someday a person may be able to live a whole life from a desktop because the very need to develop ties to other people will be eliminated (by online connections) <[Randy] R.ZEITMAN4> as Tom said. <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I think the technologies are going to be more seductive. People may scorn human contact, if the computer is more satisfying, or if the other users are more in tune with them... <[Ric] GRAFFITI> That's a fatalistic view, isn't it? Couldn't technology actually augment our interpersonal connections, allowing us to meet (both electronically AND in person, people we'd never have had the opportunity to know otherwise? <SCOTT> Could you say more about the near-term technological advances that will make computer telecom more accessible? (Please tell us what ISDN is about.) How about the long-term? GA <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> ISDN provide two 64 kilobit/sec channels and 1 16 kb/sec. With video compression you will see video conferencing possible. The phone companies are looking at a technology called ADSL... which gives you about 1.5 megabits/sec outbound with a return speed of perhaps 64 kb/sec. That is fast enough for full motion video of laserdisc quality. The big plus for the telcos is that they won't have to rewire with fiber. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Marty, your question/comment? <[MARTY] MKB> Steve, you're right that all of us are challenged by the need to cope with the information cornucopia. Electronic newspapers edited according to the reader's personal criteria will be powerful in giving us a high information density. Do you see them comDo you see them coming? <ga> <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Ric I fully agree that remote connections to people encourages face to face meetings. It has for me (that's how I've met Tom Sherman and many other people. About electronic newspapers... We were working on a research project called Rosebud where you could put in a series of personal questions for the software to take and ask many different databases... In the night the answers would arrive, and a newspaper would be built and would be sitting on your desktop in the morning (or whenever). That's about all I can say now... but I'm sure it's a model many other companies are working on. Already there are many electronic clipping services: News Edge, Individual Inc are 2 that come to mind. Not cheap though! ga <[MARTY] MKB> Rosebud sounds interesting. I'm thinking more of an online feed from, say, AP; each story would have a specific subject tag, and the computer would pick out the stories the reader wanted, at varying levels of detail. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Marty, follow up? Like that cable news arrangement? <[MARTY] MKB> Something like it. I picture the reader spending half a day or so programming the thing by subject and level of depth, from basic to professional. <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Are you familiar with X*Press Info. Services? It's a service of TCI and is sold through local cable companies. DOS and Mac software can grab stories by keywords, broad subject areas (Japan, Red Sox, serial killers) and save those for you... <[MARTY] MKB> No, is it what I'm describing? More to the point, is it priced where an average middle income information professional might want it? <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Marty, there is a system called TOPIC from Verity. You do spend a couple of hours programming the personal profile, assigning 'weights' to diff. terms so your articles are graded by relevance. That is really ... attracting a lot of attention in some circles. Librarians are skeptical of this sort of system. For the individual user, I'm not sure what to recommend. I think it's a bit too new and costly for an information broker working at home to use, but a system like GEnie might make money providing Certainly print pubs are targeting readers more and more narrowly. My newsweek has ads for stores three miles away! ga <[MARTY] MKB> Now that's it. Is it priced in the ballpark for the private individual rather than the office? To a certain extent, of course, we already have that with specialized newsletters. We read MacWeek, we get specialized info. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Marty, the last phone # I have for X*PRESS is Linda Nicholson, 303-721-5130. Steve may have newer numbers. <[MARTY] MKB> Thanks, I'll check it out. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Ric, you had a question? <[Ric] GRAFFITI> Do you think that allowing users to read "personalized" newspapers contributes somehow to censorship... after all, you'd never read anything you didn't WANT to read about, so you would stagnate. Injustices would go uncorrected.... activism would become worthless: you'd be preaching to the choir, people who WANTED to read your message. GA (Oh, X-Press can be reached at 1-800-7PC-NEWS) <[MARTY] MKB> Ric, a person has the right to receive only the information he wants to receive! <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I think that personal newspapers should have a serendipity factor built in so you get fresh info. Nicholas Negroponte of the Media Lab said that was important. ga <[Ric] GRAFFITI> I'm not talking 'rights' but the sociological effects. <[MARTY] MKB> The reader can SET a serendipity factor if he wants it. I would. But freedom of speech has never included the ability to make someone listen. <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I and other librarians kind of surf the information waves in a general sort of way, and our users find that very useful. So there is value is staying abreast of all sorts of info, not just narrow subjects. ga marty, I could not read yours. ga <[MARTY] MKB> I agree it's good to have a serendipity factor, but the individual should decide that for himself. <SCOTT> I could imagine that folks might subscribe to a service which acted like the ditor of a newspaper in deciding for them what current events were worth finding out about. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Steve, what are your thoughts about the federal government's current understanding of public access to info and its control over that access <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> To change the subject, if any Mac owners want a couple of disks with lots of info on the Internet including guide books, then send... a self addressed label to Internet Stuff, Apple Library, 10381 Bandley Dr. MS8C Cupertino, CA 95014. Next: Tom's Question... <[MARTY] MKB> Steve, can you put them in the online service libraries? <[Tom] SHERMAN> Or can we post 'em for you? <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> The feds have different views about access to info. The drive to privatize it has diminished since Bush took over, but there is also an argument about what constitutes govt. info... Some agencies think only printed stuff should be disseminated, but many Congresspeople disagreed. There are some people in the Office of Management and Budget who will agree... but they have to listen to the Information Information Society on one hand and the librarians and other who advocate unrestricted access on the other... Another interesting controversy: is any electronic message a govt. record? Should you be able to get it with a Freedom of Info. Act request? I believe in access to most govt. info, but I know I'd... feel hampered if all my email became an official record. I like it to remain conversation, and I think govt. employees should have the right to electronic conversation. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Now there's a can of electronic worms! Scott, your question? <SCOTT> I find it a lot easier to comprehend and retain info I've read in hardcopy. Can you suggest reasons why reading info on the screen is more difficult? GA <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> The resolution is much lower than a cheap paperback, but that is going to change. I have been reading Voyager's Expanded Books on our Mac portable. Jurrasic Park by M. Crichton was a good read on screen, but it will get much better. ... <[Ric] GRAFFITI> (I think the screen orientation -- standing up or laying down -- is important, too) <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Still, books will be around quite a while as these technologies develop. I may be able to use the device in the bathroom but not in the tub or the pool. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Scott, follow up? <SCOTT> This has something to do with being able to hold the page in my hand and knowing it will be there when I go back to look again. <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Well, when I reviewed the Crichton book on the PowerBook, I read it on the plane flying from San Jose to Austin and then the bus to <SCOTT> Why is that? ga <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> San Antonio and finally in bed, with my head on the pillow and the PowerBook on its side. I drifted off to sleep, as did my machine. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Steve, we've more questions! Can you stay another 10 minutes or so? <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Sure, as long as you want. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> GREAT! Marty, your question? <[MARTY] MKB> A record is a record if it's an official document, signed by a competent authority. E-mail is not a record, it's a communication. There will always be a zone of privacy for government officials to exchange frank comments, and they will find it one way one way or another. Agree? <ga> <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> In some local governments, all meetings have to be open. School boards and city councils are one example. Dave Hughes of Colorado Springs discussed this aspect (lack of privacy) some time ago.... I agree that email is a communication, but memos can be requested by citizens who want to find out how business was carried out on some rezoning controversy. ga <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> A. Duda is a librarian, if I remember. Welcome. <A.DUDA> Thanks. Sorry to be so late. <[MARTY] MKB> Right Steve, a memo is a record. But e-mails are a communication. <[Ric] GRAFFITI> email = memo? <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I know that corporate lawyers caution people about what they put into the email system. It might show up in a court case later because it is 'discoverable' (is that the term?) ga <[MARTY] MKB> Right again. E-mails are discoverable, but they shouldn't be considered fair game as policy input. <[Tom] SHERMAN> My turn :-) . . . Steve, would you say something about the management of NREN and who will profit (as well as benefit) from it? <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Historians are worried about the use of electronic comms because they cut out a lot of informal records. Big gaps in how policy or history is made. On to Tom's Question... Many people are concerned about the lack of governance in the present Internet. Some LOVE the anarchy and see strength in that. However, there is nobody you can call when... you can't connect up to that computer in Israel or Ann Arbor, and for commercial firms to use the Internet, they want accountability... I think there are several circles of beneficiaries: 1. the research and education community plus the national lab. personnel 2. then the smaller colleges, K-12 schools, and some libraries... After that you have small businesses, non-profits. museums and some non-affiliated users who are sophisticated about information access. The final group is the biggest: ... the consumer who uses electronics and computers but has not gone online yet. Left out are lots of people who don't have a need for this sort of info or who choose to get it in other ways. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Steve, how soon will the general consumer have access to the highspeed data highways? <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> In some areas (Boston, DC, San Francisco Bay Area) people can get accounts and begin using the databases, discussion groups, and other services right now. Netcom in San Jose offers a flat rate connection for about $16/month plus a lot of disk storage. Colorado Supernet has a $2/hr. connect charge. Other places are much much higher. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Steve, will NREN have the same access as Internet? Andrea, you'll be next. <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> NREN is the broadband expansion of the American part of the Internet, and it will probably have a broader user base, just because so many people are clamoring for connections (the groups I mentioned before) ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Andrea, your question? <[Andrea] A.DUDA> There's been some talk about "virtual" libraries. What do you think we have to look forward to? <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> George Brett in North Carolina is designing a text-based one, using MUDD software (multi-user dungeons and dragons). You will be able to enter... the library, examine objects, execute code which will drop you into a 'real' database or perhaps electronic object (text for now, images and sounds later). That will be a start, and then you'll have... much more media-rich services. If these are successful, you'll probably have 3D realistic browsing of libraries and media objects. There will have to be a good business model though. ga <[Andrea] A.DUDA> Will there be a role for virtual librarians? <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I think there will be a role for people and for software agents that may seem like people to users on the other end of the system... I think librarians will have a big challenge to keep up with the technology, redefine their roles, and continue to provide more traditional services for people who are not fond of computers. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> I want to remind you all that Katie Hafner will be here May 24 and Jerry Berman May 30 . . . <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> Hafner is working on a new book. I hope she tells you about it! ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Next Sunday, we're doing a joint RTC with the SPACE RT talking about government spending for protection from asteroids!! <SHERRY> Frank, why don't you go ahead and say just a bit about the RTC next week. <FRANK.REDDY> There's a move a foot in the planetary science community .. . to spend some modest bucks to locate small -- meaning yards across -- debris that crosses Earth's orbit. Sounds small, but such impacts could wipe out a city! <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> I'm going to sign off tonight. Thanks for inviting me. I enjoyed it. The time certainly flew by. -Steve <[Ric] GRAFFITI> Thanks for coming, Steve! <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> ** has left. -----# Participants #----- <[Andrea] A.DUDA> <[rookie] B.COOKE5> <FRANK.REDDY> <[Ric] GRAFFITI> <[jim&pat] J.ENG9> <[MARTY] MKB> <[Mark] MLEWIS> <[Steve Cisler] PRESS20> <[Randy] R.ZEITMAN4> <SCOTT> <[Tom] SHERMAN> <SHERRY> | | This listing was generated by LRTC Version 1.00 | (C)opyright by Hartmut W. Malzahn, 1991. All rights reserved. | ______________________________________________________ | | | The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable |______ |______________________________________________________| | | Sysops' GE Mail: PF$ RTC Sunday 9pm EDT: MOVE 545;2 |______ |___________________________________________________________| | | News, Current Events, Government, Societal Issues, Nonprofits | |________________________________________________________________| # # # ------------------------------ End of Computer Underground Digest #4.24 ************************************