NetNews Usenet Archive 1993 #3

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Newsgroups: alt.zines Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!fuug!anon From: an3191@anon.penet.fi Subject: INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X Message-ID: <1993Jan23.050116.27097@fuug.fi> Sender: anon@fuug.fi (The Anon Administrator) Organization: Anonymous contact service X-Anonymously-To: alt.zines Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:43:37 GMT Lines: 398 Forwarded message: From wixer!cactus.org!lambada.oit.unc.edu!Mitchell.Porter@cs.utexas.edu Wed Jan 20 04:58:54 1993 Message-Id: <9301190613.AA11432@lambada.oit.unc.edu> Subject: INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X To: future@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 1:13:03 EST From: Mitchell Porter <wixer!cactus.org!lambada.oit.unc.edu!Mitchell.Porter@cs.utexas.edu> Cc: autopia@cactus.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4dev PL65] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text Content-Length: 23650 INTERZINE #1 --- JAGWIRE X (jagwire@wixer.cactus.org) Interzine is an irregular e-zine devoted to "interviews in cyberspace". It may be copied and distributed freely. This is a chat via IRC with Jagwire X, who recently created the AUtopia mailing list (send subscription requests to autopia-request@wixer.cactus.org) to discuss the idea of an autonomous "New Edge" colony on an ocean-going vessel. He can also be reached at the CyberSpace Institute BBS @ +1.512.469.0447. /who #AUtopia Channel Nickname S User@Host (Name) #AUtopia Velax H daemon@BRADENVILLE.ANDREW.CMU.EDU (bblk09.edn.gu.edu.au) #AUtopia Jagwire X G@ anonymous@mickey.cc.utexas.edu (anonymous) Velax > Jagwire? this is mitch Jagwire X > Hey. Velax > I'm just sending you mail but I guess I can abort that Velax > Where are you physically? Jagwire X > Austin, Texas, USA Jagwire X > And you? Velax > A computer lab, Griffith University, MT Gravatt campus, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Jagwire X > What time is it? 6.00am or so? Velax > about 10 or 11 am here, I think.. Velax > So you're in someone's apartment.. your own?.. on a terminal over a modem, linked to a unix system.. Jagwire X > My apartment. Connect to the University of Texas via. my modem. Velax > Right.. I am always curious about the nature of a person's access to the net, since I suspect that different people "see" it in very different ways Jagwire X > Are we interviewing, yet? Velax > :) good question Velax > I've got "capture" running Velax > So I guess this is "raw material" at the very least Jagwire X > Cool... well I'm ready whenever you are. Yeah. I interviewed Andy Hawks this way (more or less). Velax > The first thing I always wanted to ask you, was: what *is* a jagwire? Jagwire X > Well, it cam about this way: I was driving a rental car while tripping on acid and I had been reading a bunch of c-punk lit at the time and I saw a huge billboard for a jaguar (the car). And I had been thinking about aliases at the time, and I had been thinking about aliases at the time, and I have always had an affinity for cats. So I sort of combined, jaguar/hardwired into a single polychromatic word. Velax > aha.. Velax > I had thought maybe a "jagwire" was some sort of "phreaker's phriend", like a "plumber's helper".. some sort of wire you stick in a machine to get it to do something Jagwire X > Hey there's an idea. Maybe I'll invent something like that. Velax > okay, so that's the jagwire part.. what about the "X"? is that a Malcolm X reference? or something more generic? Jagwire X > Oh, oh yeah... also jag <which means more or less to be wired>. The X is sort of an exclamation. Say, to make it more severe. Velax > hmm.. I thought it was meant to connote anonymity, like you had to keep an alias in order to hide yourself from the forces of law 'n order..I was just curious because both you and Blade X have that extra 'x' on the end I thought it might be a .. not a common thing, not a fashionable thing, but still a symbol understood by a certain group of people, anyhow, aliases aren't tremendously important. Jagwire X > Yeah, Blade X got it from me and Menken X (who was cosysop on my BBS for a long time). To me and Menken X it is symbol, of what? Probably cynicism and craziness. Velax > heh Velax > Your bbs - that was where you interviewed Andy Hawks? Jagwire X > Right, yeah. He graciously called it long distance. Velax > Gee, that must have been expensive Jagwire X > Probably around $15 American. Velax > So you run a bbs, and you're also creator of the whole AUtopia enterprise, which I plan to get to in a moment; do you have any other "enterprises"? Jagwire X > Um... well, I am going to try once again to publish my 'zine (SunDog). My girlfriend just bought a photocopier so... it will be easier. Other than that I would say just general wreaking havoc on cyberspace... blah blah blah. Velax > SunDog, yeah.. I had that word written down somewhere, as something to ask about.. what would distinguish your zine from the other underground / new edge zines that are already out there? would it have a net incarnation as well as a hard copy one, the way scream baby is the net form of screamin' me-me? Jagwire X > Yeah, it would be published both hardcopy and on the net. And it will be small, more like rantings from the bowels of cyberspace. Scream Baby is the net form of Scream N *me*mes which is also electronic but quarterly (I think, or at least it was) Velax > "rantings from the bowels of cyberspace".. *grin* Jagwire X > SunDog will probably be written by Menken X and I only. Velax > Is there a particular view or philosophy you would try to promote? Jagwire X > Hmm... yeah, I guess there is. I am trying to promote more substance to the form that is developing. Seems to me that the whole New Edge movement lacks any real direction. That's what the whole AUtopia thing is about, really. Velax > aha, okay Velax > Well then, what is *your* philosophy? what do you think it's all about? you said in the Andy Hawks interview you had your life turned upside down by Wilson and Leary at age 14, or something like that.. Jagwire X > Yeah, Wilson and Leary pretty much mangled my soft and mushy grey matter. Velax > heh Velax > AUtopia certainly sounds like a goal in which just about the whole 'new edge' could participate Jagwire X > As for AUtopia I certainly hope so. I haven't really done much with it since Thanksgiving, but I now am getting some free time. Velax > Where did the idea of an offshore new-edge colony come from? Hagbard Celine? "Islands in the Net"? Jagwire X > Well, actually. No. It may have lodged itself in there sometime on the past. What really brought it on was a discussion, similar to this, about the New Edge. Velax > I guess you just have to look at the world around you and ask, "where can you *go*, physically, and be free?" and all the land is taken up by the nation-states, so that leaves space, or the sea.. Jagwire X > Right, exactly. Where can I go to be free to pursue a life without being policed by immature children playing with guns. Velax > And you were saying..? that there was no direction, or no common goal? [in that discussion, that is] Jagwire X > In that discussion. Yeah, there seems to be a lack of 'hard' ideas to work toward, or even 'soft' ideas for that matter. Velax > Okay, so assuming that at some point in the future theres no kids with guns around to bother the would-be new-edge explorers.. what sort of directions are you interested in? in the last AUtopia draft I saw you had everything from nanotech to nootropics as topics of research Jagwire X > Well, yeah, I am interested in technology and how it can be used to improve the human condition. I am a big fan of Buckminster Fuller. I agree with him that all life is technology, and with the possibilities of nanotech and geneering it will be possible..to actually control the technology of life. I just want to live long enough for this to be able to happen. Wilson and Leary convinced me (at 14) that I wanted to live forever (more or less, or at least until I get bored). Velax > Have you ever read fm2030 [fm esfandiary?] are you on the extropians list? Jagwire X > I haven't read that. I am on the Extropian essay list. Velax > But not the extropian general discussion list. Very high traffic, there. Velax > esfandiary is another "transhumanist" philosopher Velax > So.. ideally, AUtopia could be a spawning ground for the technologies and ways of life in the fuller-wilson-leary sort of future, where the limits on the human condition are those of imagination rather than biology? Jagwire X > Yeah, exactly. A mecca for creation. A veritable cauldron of technological fertility. Velax > Well, I hope it happens. So far there's a mailing list and an irc channel.. Jagwire X > Yeah, me too. The mailing list is somewhat slow these days, but that will change soon, I hope. Velax > How do things look to you as far as the logistics of actually acquiring an old destroyer, or something like that, & fitting it out with all the communications tech, etc, that you're after? Jagwire X > Well, right now they look bleak. I am certain that will change, I need to spend sometime coordinating with people and see what's out there. Right now, we are still mulling over the possibilities. There should be another FAQ out any time now with more...ideas, possibilities and philosophy attached to it. Velax > Version 4.0? Jagwire X > Yeah. 4.0 Maybe even some sketches in GIF format will be available soon too. Velax > Have you contacted Pat Salsbury about his "Oceana" proposal at all? I seem to recall that going out over exi-essay. Jagwire X > Actually, I was contacted. I have yet to get back to him, but I am anticipating a mutual exchange of information. Velax > Yeah.. I only skimmed his proposal, but it was full of the countercultural technosocial ideas, like Wilson's "trade aids" also at one time on the main extropians list there was a thread about "ocean colonization" but I don't know what came of that. you could ask someone who's a subscriber to check their archives for that thread. Jagwire X > It looks more thought out than mine, I'd say. But soon I think we will be on par. Yeah, I been meaning to subscribe to it myself Velax > hmm. I think you had more details about what might be going on, on board. Velax > Did you know that R A Wilson in Cosmic Trigger II says that when he was a young anarchist he was interested in setting up anarchist colonies in international waters? maybe you should contact *him* too & see if he has any references or contacts or ideas that could be relevant. Jagwire X > Cool, I haven't read Cosmic Trigger II yet. Velax > The book's actually dedicated to Buckminster Fuller Jagwire X > Heh, cool, not surprising though. Velax > So what else specifically does the AUtopia project need now? apart from subscribers to the mailing list. Jagwire X > People, who are interested in working on it, gathering info, coordinating various aspects. Mostly organizational stuff at this point. Later it will need people (the same ones hopefully) who want to do physical work. Velax > So you'd hope to soon reach the point where there is effectively a specialization amongst the interested people? I mean, one looking at legal stuff, another at onboard comm tech, and so on.. Jagwire X > Yeah, I'd like to see different working groups that can get down to the nitty gritty of various aspects of the project. Once that happens things will get rolling. Velax > The previous AUtopia "position papers" or drafts describing the concept had a neat listing of relevant topics & so on, would that be how the working groups would come about? if someone says, 'okay, I'll address section 3a..' and so on.. Jagwire X > In a way. Yeah. In the next version I should, hopefully, have it broken up into different sections (for each working group). So, yeah. Velax > It seems to me that a really vital thing now is coming up with at least a hypothetical scenario whereby an actual geographic location is found and actual hardware is procured. otherwise it will remain just a fantasy. in this regard, I seem to recall that future culture carried some discussion of where you might buy old destroyers from [was it eastern European countries selling off their navies?], and the extropians thread on ocean colonization discussed whereabouts in international waters you might have the least chance of being harassed.. I think one of the optimum locations was off some small southeast Asian nation. Jagwire X > Yeah. Ideally, I would like to see a ship that can actually move about. If it was stationary I would think that a southeast Asian nation would be a suitable locale. Velax > hmm.. the question of mobility is related to the question of size, basically, I think. you need to know what sort of vessels are available - submarines? destroyers? crude oil carriers? etc etc. heh just had an idea. maybe you could learn from L Ron Hubbard's "sea org", he had a private flotilla of yachts or something like that. Jagwire X > Getting the hardware is going to be the most difficult part. And it will require some preparation on the part of the people involved. It will take some time to accomplish (at best). Even so if it does not come to fruition, it still is an excellent... mental exercise for the parties involved. Velax > hmm. if, say, AUtopia foundered in its present form, for one reason or another, then the thought which had gone into the social and technical aspects might prove useful to future attempts to design new edge communities, but.. nonetheless there are a lot of issues specifically relating to the idea of a new-edge colony *at sea*. and they are the most difficult ones, as far as actually achieving this goes. Jagwire X > True. Velax > but it's hard to see where else a new-edge colony could go, in the near future. I used to think about having some sort of research community in the Australian outback, but most of that land is either barren or belongs to mineral companies or aboriginal tribes. Applies to the American desert. Velax > I was musing about other possible locations.. the point I was getting around to was that at sea seems to be the best possible location for a generic new-edge colony at present. the only other place I can imagine would be in a ghetto somewhere, or maybe sibe Jagwire X > Well, in orbit would be nice, but unlikely. I certainly wouldn't mind living in space. Velax > Siberia that is.. since the Russian government wants to develop its eastern regions & wants foreign investment too, or something like that well, I presume that the new edge will get into orbit eventually, but the AUtopia timescale seems to be more like late 90's early 21st century. Jagwire X > Somehow I don't think they would want us there. Yeah, the ocean is the most likely candidate. Velax > All this relates back to what you said about, even if AUtopia doesn't come to fruition anything that gets thrashed out here can still help future enterprises like this.. Velax > The point is that if it's ever going to happen at all, anywhere, it looks as though it will have to start at sea. Jagwire X > Yeop. Velax > So even the specifically "nautical" considerations that will be discussed on AUtopia will be of future relevance, not just the generic contemplation of new-edge autonomous communities. Velax > [does that make sense?] Jagwire X > Yeah, I think so. Like even for non New Edge ocean colonization. Velax > Another thing that has occured to me. on leri-l someone talked once about setting up a bot on irc channel #leri and automating a process whereby all conversation on the channel would get sent to the mailing list. maybe you could do that with AUtopia too. [concerning non New Edge ocean col.] yes, that too. do you know how often people visit #AUtopia? Jagwire X > Nope. I have no idea. I am often not around as I am still await the full INTERnet connection at my base of operations. Velax > Is that wixer.cactus.org? Jagwire X > Yeah. That's the place. Home of AUtopia, Scream Baby and FringeWare. Velax > Yeah, I'm very curious about it. does you or Blade X or Paco work for wixer or cactus or whatever organization this is? Jagwire X > Blade X, Pacoid and I are the big three freaks there. No none of us do. It's run by George Wenzel and frankly I don't know much about it. 'Better, Faster and Cheaper' is their motto (I think), but don't quote me on that. Velax > heh, ok Velax > I remember on fut-cult a while back there was a discussion about which city is more cyberpunkish or new-edgey, and I remember someone saying that Austin was one of the best places to be, to be connected to the techno-underground Jagwire X > Yeah, it definitely is. The amount of New Edge per capita has got to be higher than anywhere else. Plus there's a whole lot of high-tech industry here. The University of Texas, more BBS's than you can shake a stick at. Members of the Legion of Doom. A local chapter of EFF. Plenty of Raves (if your into that). Tons of live music. etc. etc. etc. Velax > So you have high-tech industry [computers? genetics? aerospace?] connected to utexas, plus drugs, raves, mind machines, hackers.. Jagwire X > Plus it's has some of the strictest environmental initiatives in the US, clean air, and it's a sprawl even (size wise if not population). High-tech industry includes all that you mentioned. Velax > how organized is the techno-undeground, do you think? I guess this relates to what you were saying before, about the lack of overarching visions. it seems to me that the most organized people would be groups like LOD. at the level of the new edge as a whole, there's no organization, there's only zines and other info outlets like the mailing lists which provide an overview of what exists,. but don't actually coordinate anything. Jagwire X > How organized. Here it seems to be more organized than most places. EFF-Austin is a contributor to that. Velax > Isn't the EFF basically a civil rights watchdog? officially? I mean, I imagine that at CyberDawg get-togethers, or whatever they're called, people might talk about all sorts of other things, but I'm sure the EFF charter [eg] doesn't say 'we're here to put the nootropics researchers, in touch with the computer underground, in touch with..' Jagwire X > Yeah, that's right. The CyberDawgs present an opportunity for the people to meet face2face. What they do after that is up to them. Velax > hmm. on the topic of the eff, while you were gone I started checking my email and there's a whole heap of messages with subject lines like 'the EFF is over' and 'shakeup at the eff'. do you know what this is about. Jagwire X > Not really. There was a post about EFF National's changes. The rest was all just opinions and hype. Apparently some people are not pleased with what they are doing. Me I don't have much of an opinion about it. Velax > Well, just viewing one long message, which I think is the post about the national changes, it says something about not forming local chapters. where would that leave EFF-Austin, any idea? Jagwire X > Well, EFF-Austin is an incorporated entity unto itself. It is not actually a subdivision of EFF-National. Velax > okay, so this would really appear to be just an organizational change, not a change of goals or anything. however, to relate this back to what I was saying before, the EFF is an organization which concentrates on the future of the net, or cyberspace, & in particular on civil liberties in cyberspace. That's only part of the new edge. for example, nanotech, nootropics & other forms of R&D on the one hand, & raves, mudding & other on-line _culture_ on the other, are part of it too. what I was trying to get at is that there is nothing concerned with the whole new edge, as far as I can see, apart from zines like Mondo 2000 etc. Jagwire X > Yes. That's right. As far as I know it does not promote any of the other aspects of the New Edge. Yeah, in the sense that any magazine is a discussion of a subject. I would say that M2k and bOING-bOING do quite a good job of blending various aspects together. Velax > And they are more reporting on the scene rather than trying to involve it all in some common enterprise, as AUtopia would. So there would seem to be a need for 2 things, that I can think of: i] a group with an "EFF-like" approach to the whole issue of technoculture, and ii] trying to create the space - a "TAZ" - where new edge activities can be pursued. this is where AUtopia fits in, I guess. Jagwire X > You got it. Velax > I've never seen bOING bOING here in oz, unfortunately Jagwire X > I am probably going to have to go for good RSN. Velax > Yeah, I guess it might be about time. it must be about midnight there by now? Jagwire X > No, 8:30 pm. I just have some stuff I have to do b4 it get's late. I've enjoyed it and thanks for the opportunity! Velax > Yes, its bee fun & quite interesting. Maybe someday I'll be able to interview you at jagwire@autopia.com Jagwire X > Heh. Hopefully! Feel free to e-mail me if you have any further questions. BCNUL8R Velax > Sure. well, I'll probably see you on future culture, AUtopia or leri, anyhow. Ok, see you.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind system, any replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.