NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #31/NN_1992_31.iso/spool/gnu/misc/discuss/4179

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Path: sparky!uunet!ogicse!das-news.harvard.edu!husc-news.harvard.edu!husc10.harvard.edu!zeleny
From: [e-mail] (Michael Zeleny)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,talk.philosophy.misc,alt.usage.english,alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Jan 93 04:24:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1993Jan3.232427.18974
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal
Lines: 151
Nntp-Posting-Host: husc10.harvard.edu

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Bill Johnston) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>
>[e-mail] (Michael Zeleny) writes:

>>In article <[e-mail]>
>>[e-mail] (Bill Johnston) writes:

>>>In article <[e-mail]>
>>>[e-mail] (Michael Zeleny) writes:

BJ:
>>>It has been repeatedly pointed out that GNU software is available free
>>>of charge to anyone with enough ability and time to learn how to use
>>>the various ftp-by-email services.  This surely includes Mikhail Zeleny.

MZ:
>>Can you imagine a student account without ready access to a non-glass
>>output device, and a one meg disk quota?  Good boy!

BJ:
>Then list the source code screen by screen and transcribe it by pencil.
>
>It is still free for your use under the terms of the GPL - the terms
>set by the owner and copyright holder, which is not Mikhail Zeleny
>unless I've missed the name of a major contributor.

I am willing to wager that my volunteered contribution to the founding
of the Free Software Foundation exceeds your own by an arbitrary factor
of your choice.  How much are you willing to bet?

BJ:
>>>Do you require that FSF itself set up a free BBS or provide a
>>>self-service disk duplicator in their office?  Do you require
>>>that GNU software by delivered free of charge by an FSF
>>>representative to your home?  Do you require a free personal
>>>tutorial, and perhaps the right to bore and/or insult the tutor
>>>during the lesson?

MZ:
>>I don't require jack shit, my excitable boy, with the sole exception
>>that men live up to their billing.

BJ:
>Indeed?  It's probably easier to live up to one's billing when
>one has no billing.  Finding a better way to copyright and distribute
>software and source code is a subject that many have talked about;
>the FSF (including "men" like Stallman for those who insist on
>personalizing) have actually taken a public position and done
>their best to put their ideas into practice.  Few political action
>groups have so successfully worked both the theoretical and practical
>sides of a difficult problem.
>
>If you have a better idea, please share it;  we're interested.

I had shared my idea, as well as a great deal of personal effort and
expenses, with Stallman and company seven and a half years ago; my
sole reward was an underhanded exclusion from the promised seat on the
Foundation's board of directors.  Just for you, my little pigeon, I will
repeat the gist of it: make the bloody "copyleft" a request, rather than
a demand.  Ask that people limit their proprietary code borrowing to
conventionally defined "fair use".  Do not attempt to bind anyone's
action, except by appealing to his conscience.  Ignore the inevitable
cheaters; nothing can stop a determined thief.  Offer your paying
customers warranty support; give people a genuine incentive to pay you
for copies, rather than offload them from an archive.  There is no real
need to copyright the programs, but if you must do it, whilst reserving
the right to call the resulting software free, make the terms as
non-restrictive as possible.  I adduce Knuth's TeX as exibit A.

NOW WILL YOU SHUT UP YOUR PROMISCUOUS GOB AND THINK A LITTLE?

BJ:
>Otherwise, your carping on semantics and potshots at certain
>personalities within FSF get old quick.  They been done more
>convincingly in the past by people who evinced a genuine concern
>for improving our society's approach to intellectual property,
>rather than a prediliction for one-sided accounts of alleged
>hypocrisy in seven-years-past conversations with FSF principals.

Son, I don't give a cold fuck whether you take my allegations at face
value; it is quite enough for me that the principals know that I speak
the truth.  More than seven years of silence is enough; from now on, I
shall call it as I see it.  If I see hypocrisy, I identify it as such;
if I know that the self-professed defenders of freedom and Kantian
virtue had no qualms about using my work and breaking their commitment,
I make a public statement.  Likewise, I have absolutely no interest in
your opinion of the quality of my concern; if you wish to put your money
where your mouth is, just take my bet.

BJ:
>The case of glass screen and pencil differs from personal delivery
>by an FSF representative only in the amount of work that you need
>to do to take advantage of it.  It is still free, and if you want
>find a easier way to get GNU software all you have to do is read the
>file named "GETTING.GNU.SOFTWARE" that is available on most if not all
>ftp sites and mirrors.  I'll mail the whole text to you later, but here
>is a snippet:
>
> * How To Get The Software
>
> The easiest way to get a copy of the distribution is from someone else
> who has it.  You need not ask for permission to do so, or tell any one
> else; just copy it.  The second easiest is to ftp it over the
> Internet.  The third easiest way is to uucp it.  Ftp and uucp
> information is in file /pub/gnu/etc/FTP.
>
> If you cannot get a copy any of these ways, or if you would feel more
> confident getting copies straight from us, or if you would like to get
> some funds to us to help in our efforts, you can order one from the
> Free Software Foundation.  See file /pub/gnu/etc/DISTRIB.
>
>Now, like the FSF, I am willing to distribute GNU software for a fee.
>Like FSF, I charge different people different amounts for this service,
>and I have no moral qualms or semantic nightmares over describing this
>as a "distribution fee".  Difficult people in particular usually get
>quoted a higher price, but I have been been known to make exceptions.
>
>For you, Mikhail Zeleny, my "fee" is zero in for as long as I can
>keep my machine up and running.  I keep a reasonably collection
>of GNU source on tape;  I have decent e-mail and ftp connectivity,
>and a floppy drive that can read and write most floppy formats.
>I also have a fast modem if you would prefer to uucp from me rather
>than FSF.  Just send me mail, and I will arrange to make a copy of
>any current GNU source package available in a form that you can copy
>onto your own media free of charge.
>
>As the file "GETTING.GNU.SOFTWARE" points out, the easiest way to
>get GNU software is to copy it from someone else who has it.  Now
>you know someone else who has it, Mr. Zeleny.  For you, it is free.

This is very sweet; I can barely keep from crying.  Would that you had
evinced half as much of a concern for understanding my criticism, as you
had expended the energy in trying to get me to shut up.  I am not at all
interested in getting a copy of GNU source; if and when I require one, I
shall ask a personal friend, rather than an obstreperous blowhard like
yourself.

Once again, slowly: I have a vested interest in the concept of freedom;
my personal stake in it is more than you could ever imagine.  That's the
reason why I volunteered to help Stallman in 1985; that's the reason I
am saying this now.

>--
>-- Bill Johnston ([e-mail])
>-- 38 Chambers Street; Newark, DE 19711; [phone]

cordially,
mikhail [e-mail]
"Nothing can be said truly of what does not exist."