NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #31/NN_1992_31.iso/spool/alt/fan/rushlim/10714

Text File | 1992-12-25 | 9.5 KB | 190 lines

Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Path: sparky!uunet!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!riverside.mr.net!noc.msc.net!uc.msc.edu!apctrc!vpci15.nap.amoco.com!dlhanson
From: [e-mail] (David L. Hanson)
Subject: Re: Soul of the Republican Party
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: These are my opinions.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 12:23:57 GMT
Lines: 178

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (William C. Barwell) writes:

>There aint any such clause.  However.   Thomas Jefferson and James
>Madison were the fathers of the first amendment.  In a letter to a group
>of Babtists, the Danbury Babtists, jefferson uses the phrase "Wall of
>seperation".  He makes it very clear that there is to be a STRONG wall of
>seperation between Church and State.

The State he was talking about was the federal goverment, not state
governments, as will shown below.

>When Jefferson was president, one Rev. Millar, wrote to ask him to
>institue an oficial day of prayer, which Jefferson refused.  Rev. Millar
>then wrote again to ask him to institute an UNOFFICAL day of prayer,
>which Jefferson pointedly refused.

Are you sure what Miller was writing about?
According to "The Myth of Separation" by David Barton, page 41:

"Most people are suprised when they find that the Constitution does not
contain the words 'separation of church and state.'  The common perception
is that those words are the heart of the First Amendment and are included
in it.  Since that phrase does not appear in the our Constitution, what is
its origin?

At the time of the Constitution, although the states encourage Christianity,
no state allowed an exclusive state-sponsored denomination.  However,
many citizens did recall accounts from earlier years when one denomination
ruled over and oppressed all others.  Even though these past abused were
not current history in 1802, the fear of a recurrences still lingered
in some minds.

It was in this context that the Danbury Baptist Association of Danbury,
Connecticut, wrote to President Jefferson.  Although the statesman and
patriots who framed the Constitution made it clear that no one Christian
denomination would become the official denomination, the Baptists expressed
their concern over a rumor that a particular denomination was soon to be
recognized as the national denomination.  On January 1, 1802, President
Jefferson responded to the Danbury Baptists in a letter. He calmed their
fears by using the now infamous phrase to assure them that the federal
government would notestablish any single denomination of Christianity as the
national denomination:

    I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American
    people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law
    respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
    exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separtion between Church
    and State.
...
The 'wall' was originally introduced as, and understood to be a
one-directional wall protecting the church from the government.  This was
also Jefferson's understanding, as conveyed through statements he made
concerning the First Amendment - statements now ignored by the Court:

   Kentucky Resolutions of 1798: No power over the freedom of religion...
   [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution.

   Second Inaugural Address, 1805: In matters of religion I have considered
   that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent ofthe
   powers of the General [federal government].

   Letter to Samuel Miller, 1808:  I consider the government of the
   United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with
   religions institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises.  This
   results not only from the provision that now law shall be made respecting
   the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which
   reserves to the States powers not delegated to the United States [10th
   amendment].  Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious excercise,
   or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to
   the General Government.  IT MUST THEN REST WITH THE STATES, as far
   as it can be in any human authority.

Contrary to Jefferson's explanation of the intent, such power no longer
rests with the states.  In 1947, in Everson v. Board of Educ., the Court
reversed 150 years of established legal practice under the Constitution and
decided that it did have the right to rule on an individual state's decisions
regarding religious practice. Prior to that reversal, the Courts have left
the decisions as Jefferson and all other Founders has planned it - 'rest[ing]
with the states.'  State legislatures had been passing laws since the 1600's
allowing the free exercise of religious practices in schools and public
affairs: voluntary prayer, Bible reading, the use of the Ten Commandments,
etc. These laws had been enacted 'with the consent of the governed' and
through representatives elected 'of the people, by the people, and for
the people'. "

>  "I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the
>Constitution from meddlim=ng with reigous institutions, their doctrines,
>discipline or exercises.  This rresults not only from the provision that
>no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercise of
>religion,....
>  But it is only proposed that I recommend not prescribe a day of fasting
>and prayer.  That is, I should indirectly assume to the United States an
>authority over religous exercises, which the Constitution has directly
>precluded them from..."

>You could imagine what Jefferson would say about prayer in public
>schools, or Creches on government property, or what he would say about
>the pious legeal frauds that declare such creches as 'secular' rather
>than religous as some courts have done.

Jefferson would have been perfectly happy with voluntary prayer in
public schools.  You draw the wrong conclusions from his statement to
Mr. Miller, because you left off the part where Jefferson says that
powers to prescribe voluntary prayer 'rest with the States'.

>Remember, Jefferson was one of the two men most responsible for there
>being a first amandment, and actually wrote the final version of that
>amendment.  HE definitly is the one person that knows what it meant and
>how strongly it was to apply.

Not true!  According to Barton's book:

"Jefferson did NOT play a leading role either in the First Amendment or the
Constitution; he had been in Paris.  In fact, during the Congressional
debate, it was Fisher Ames of Massachusetts who proposed the wording of
the First Amendment; and it was the conference committee of Senators Oliver
Ellsworth, Charles Carroll, and William Paterson and Representatives Roger
Sherman, John Vining, and James Madison which hammered out the final wording
that the Congress subsequently approved and the states finally ratified.
Jefferson was NOT present.

Even though Jefferson did NOT participate in the framing of the First
Amendment,..."

The Court portrays Madison and Jefferson as being opposed en toto to
permitting any religious influence on government or public affairs.
However, such is not the case, as shown by Jefferson's actions"

  While serving in the Virginia Assembly he ws the one who personally
  introduced a resolution for a Day of Fasting and Prayer in 1774...
  When he established the University of Virginia, he encouraged the
  teaching of religion and set apart space in the Rotunda for chapel
  services. He also praised the use of the local courthouse in his home
  town for religious services.

Actually, while President of the United States, Jefferson also became first
president of the Washington, D.C. public school board, which used the
Bible and Watt's Hymnal as reading texts in the classroom - well subsequent
to the adoption of the First Amendment. According to Jefferson:

  I have always said, and always will say, that the studious perusal of
  the sacred volume will make us better citizens.
  ...

In his 'Notes on the State of Virginia', Jefferson declared:

  And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed
  their only firm basis,  a conviction in the minds of the people that these
  liberties are of the gift of God?  That they are not to be violated but
  with His wrath?  Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God
  is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."

>If anything, the first amendment has definitely been stepped on by our
>politicians in the last half century.  Putting in 'God we trust" on our
>dollars....

>We need to go back to following the Constitution, not subverting it for
>the benifit of right winged evangelicals and the like.

The first amendment has only been "stepped on" in this century by the
enemies of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.  Liberals, both on and
off of the Court, are rewriting history and fooling most of the people
with their lies. They are doing this through their control of
the public socialist [school] system which is a tool of the socialist
left used to corrupt the minds of the youth of this country.

Signature follows:
"Whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the
light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should
shine on them."  II Cor 4:4


============================================================================
David L. Hanson
Naperville, IL

"He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God
 abideth on him." John 3:36