Programmer 7500/MAX_PROGRAMMERS.iso/PROGRAMS/UTILS/HARDWARE/COCO4.ZIP/COCO4.TXT

Text File | 1990-11-27 | 74.6 KB | 1,835 lines

From:    Kent Pirkle
To:      James Jones                              Msg #138, 10-Nov-89 20:28GMT
Subject: Re: COCO 4 MSGS ON CIS


Msg#: 6925 *Tandy CoCo*
11-06-89 01:55:49
From: KEVIN DARLING
  To: ALL
Subj: COCO-4 DESIGN
Here's the planned layout. There are two backplanes... one CoCo, the other a
custom 68K bus. Each is optional, depending on what you're into. Probably
you'll have the buses vertical, with the cards horizontal.

Both the cpu cards will go between both buses. Thus each can access I/O cards
on either bus:


                  68K BUS             CC BUS
            ____________________   _________
           |____________________| |_________|
           /                   /| /        /|
          /                   //|/        //|
         /                   //_/        ///|
        /                   // /        ////| <- etc
 I/O-> /___________________// /________////_| <- CC Hard disk I/O
 GFX-> /___________________/  /________///    <- GIME Card
 09 -> /_______________________________//     <- 6309 CPU Card
 68K-> /_______________________________/      <- 680x0 CPU Card

So, if you don't have any 68K bus cards, you just use the CoCo side. Or vice
versa. Or any combo. Maximum flexibility, depending on what you buy/want. The
680x0 card may even be used standalone, perhaps. The 6309/GIME cards might get

combined into one card.

The video cards also have sound, joystick, and PC keybd ports. The cpu cards
have SCSI/floppy/RAM. You get a combo that you want/afford. What do you think?

- ke

<*>Replies
<F>wd, <D>elete, <A>gain, <R>eply, <N>ext, or <S>top?

*** Part of a conversation.


From:    Kent Pirkle
To:      James Jones                              Msg #139, 10-Nov-89 20:32GMT
Subject: NON-TANDY COCO 4


Msg#: 8175 *Tandy CoCo*
11-10-89 03:32:33
From: KEVIN DARLING
  To: BOB BILLSON
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 7917 (RE: COCO 4)
Ummm... ballpark figures? Okay. The 4 Mhz 6309/GIME card(s?) setup will be
$400-500. Figure that with 2 meg RAM and onboard DMA and PC keybd port,
serial/par/clock, etc, it adds up very fairly. Killer speed. Use your own
drives, case, power, disk interfaces, software. You could stop here.

68K side will run about $500-800+, depending on cpu. A 68030 is very
expensive!
A 68070 will be the cheapest. Fast RAM on board, serial/par/clock, DMA
SCSI/floppy controllers, and so on. If you have the coco stuff, use it too.
OS-9 in ROM of course, and an OS9/6809 coco emulator. OS-9 cost could vary a
LOT, so prices could be low some.

68K gfx card (probably usable from coco side too) has multiple A/D ports, PC
keybd port, possibly onboard coprocessor for windows, DMA multiple stereo
channels, and almost certainly optional genlock for TV video overlays. Maybe
$200-300+?

Will be sold through many coco retailers. Custom box may be made, else uses AT

case.

Prices may vary in your town. Contents may settle during shipping <grin>

<->, <F>wd, <D>elete, <A>gain, <R>eply, <N>ext, or <S>top?

And such is the jist of what the Non-Tandy CoCo 4 is starting to become?
If anyone wants to add more to the "CoCo 4" wish list, contact Kevin
Darling
via Online With Hayes: 1-800-US-HAYES or 1-404-HI-MODEM


Subject: RE: CoCo 4!!  (For real this time?)

According to one of Kevin's messages on CIS, prototypes will (probably) be
out in a month.  Sounds like some very nice stuff going on.. I read thru
about 100K of messages on the subject.  (And added about 5K of my own <grin>).

Sounds like things have been underway for quite some time.. now they're getting
user input to decide on the initial configuration.  The only thing that worries
me is that too much emphasis is being put on the 6309 side of the system.. if
I want CoCo3 compatibility, I'll fire up my CoCo3.  With the 6809 software
emulators mentioned (and fairly decent source compatibility), it would be
more efficient to stick with the 68000 starting out (with 68030/040 upgrades
available at a future date.. and a 68882 FPU socket included now.)

Wonder if KD could be talked into joining the List..

From: CoCo Labs <DJH9381@RITVAX>
Subject: Next in line...
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: CoCo Labs <DJH9381@RITVAX>

Since someone out here obviously has some connections with the people
designing the CoCo3's successor.... here is my (and some others who are
in the 2 user groups that I am involved in ... Rochester & NJ)

OS9 68K  and a 68K processor standard is really nice, using a superset
of existing OS-9 escape sequences is really nice (allowing a full set of
software to be compatable at source code level upon release of the
new computer)... I was sort of looking forward to a 5MHz 6309... If
the new computer will not give me an added advantage in the 8 bit world,
I will not upgrade immediately (since I will not use the computer as
much.... lets face it, the computer will be the same speed as the
CoCo3, we will loose VDG windows (which alot of programs use), and programs
that use real windows and are too slow on the CoCo3 will still be too
slow on the new computer... this is not as much as an incentive to
leave the CoCo3... granted, I am running out of room for my windowing
system that I am deveolping, but I can live with it for another year or
two.... I am not going to plop down $500 or $600 for a 68K computer that
runs my CoCo3 stuff at the same speed... I would rather plop down $800
on a 12.5 MHz PT68K with a PC compatable bus, use a VGA card, and use
the windowing OS that I am designing (all I have to do is make a port of
WindInt and GrfDdrv).... I doubt if the new 68K based computer will be that
fast for the price....

What would I like to see?? Good question... If it is going to be a 68K,
make it quick and put it on a 32 bit bus for future expansion... I am not
talking 20 MHz, but give us more speed than the Amiga and ST users are
getting out of their boxes... If a 6809 compatable is being plopped
in, give it a little boost in speed (3 MHz) to at least tempt the people
who are content with CoCo3's to get it (the CoCo3 is fast enough for
me... just run it as a windowing interface to my roomates PT68K, use
it as a front to the VAX running the ray tracer, use it as a front for
the SUN 3 MIP workstation running the fractal programs and outputting
the escape codes to my CoCo3 terminal).... VME bus is nice and standard,
but are they too expensive for the normal CoCo user?? PC bus is nice,
but how long will XT cards be available? (microchanel is on the horizon
and most of the computers I am seeing out there are AT's now) I would
like to see  32 bit address, 32 bit data, and control bus feeding a
card edge (or header) which can connect to the CoCo/VME/PC/AT bus
(whatever it is) or a VME bus with PC, AT, and CoCo card adapters
that can plug in.... The Tandy 2000 was a neat design... it was a
cable connecting the single board to the bus cage that gave it nice
flexibility for future expansion (but Tandy did something wrong... it
was a nice design, but too unstandard).... or possibly a custom bus
made of dual inline headers which a CoCo/PC/AT/VME card adapter can
interface the appropriate cards into the bus.... More or less, I don't
want to loose my XT hard drive controller card, I am sure no one wants
to loose their DISTO hard drive controller, I don't want to loose my other
cards (RS232, disk drive, XPad, speech pak, stereo pack, etc)

Well, enough of rambling... I am sure someone can summerize this and


Subject: New Coco-4
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: [e-mail]

From: [e-mail]

I blew 2 hours on CI$ and Delphi last nite, and got some
more news on the new machine (GoGo, CoCoPro, or KMA=Kiss My *ss,
the best name when talking to IBM or Mac users).

First, Kevin D. says they (the OS9UG?) have a financial backer
and they really are going to manufacture production boards.
Not clear what part Microware will play in the OS9 end, or
how much they'll charge.  It would be in Mware's best interests
to support the machine at cost, but their management has been around
Tandy's so long  they've picked up some mental viruses,* so...?

The debate continues over how hard to hit the 6809 side, but Ke
seems to have decided against the super-fast version (it needs
too many other special chips) and will stick with the same ole
2 MHz job.  Also leaning towards including the 68000 chip
(really 68070) right off the bat, and OSK too, so EVERYONE will have
it and the OSK software market will take off.

Or without OSK, but letting the 68K do the grafix (no VDG then).
There is real danger of losing VDG screen access from the 6809
side, but according to Eddie's repost here, the "GIME" (or whatever)
chip is on the 6809 side, so VDG should be safe for a while.

Kevin is real high on the idea of the OSK's first windowing system
using the same escape code sequences as our L2, thus making
"real" window programs instantly portable to OSK.  Eddie and I have
been pushing that idea.

Worst part is that the designers are considering using VME Bus for
the 68K side.  Terribly over-designed (and not all that fast)
for a single-68K system.  The idea was to pick up some sales
in the industrial/scientific market (OS9's major markets already).
I say use a simple internal bus, with optional adapters to
VME, IEEE-488, or whatever.  Most of us agree we want IBM-PC bus
standard, thru a built-in adapter, not internally (ie, not
between the CPU chip and memory and on-board peripherals).

Note the above is a mixture of what I read and my own opinions,
all of which I posted on CI$ and Delphi.

*"Never overestimate the stupidity of management -- you can't!"



Subject: Re: Next in line...
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: tim koonce <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>

>> lets face it, the computer will be the same speed as the CoCo3, we
>>will loose VDG windows (which alot of programs use), and programs that
>>use real windows and are too slow on the CoCo3 will still be too slow
>>on the new computer...
Response:
1) Since when is a 10meg 68000 the "same speed" as the CoCo3??  The statement
was that there would be a CoCo 3 emulator which would run CoCo 3/OS9 binaries
at the same speed.  If you have source, you just re-compile (it should be
completely source compatible), and things will speed up significantly!  Most
freeware/shareware stuff will be available very quickly (as soon as the authors
get the chance to re-compile on the new machine).  Sounds a lot faster to me!

2) I don't really see that many programs using VDG windows.  I have a number
of games and graphics programs, none of which use VDG windows.  The only
things I have which use VDG windows are Tandy games.  The few 3rd party
programs that I know of which use VDG windows should be easily ported
to use real windows, with no real loss in speed.  Arcade games are the
only real problem.  (And even some of them could be written under
windows, if the authors took a little bit more care.)

3) With a fast 68000 running things, windows will be significantly
faster.  I don't know why you discredit the 68000 as being such a
wimp.  Current plans for an 8-bit processor suggest using a 4-5 mhz
6309.  That sounds like _at_least_ twice as fast to me!  Not to
mention that windows things will benefit immensely from external video
cards (have you heard the specs they've been tossing around for the
video card?  Something like 800x400x256 colors) with built-in graphics
processors.  Even stuff running on the emulator will benefit, since
windows stuff will go through the native windows support, rather than
being emulated in slow 6809 code.

   The PT68k sounds nice, but you're leaving out some things.  That
$800 is just for the motherboard.  Considering the machine they're
talking about will run OS9/68k with an _established_ windowing system
(a port of CoCo 3 windows), it sounds nice to me.  The PT68k runs
OS9/68k.  Even if you do write your own windowing system, are you
really interested in writing all of your own software to use it.  The
only "benefit" I can see to the PT68k is that it has an (optional?)
PC bus.  (It's possible that the CoCoPro will have a PC Bus, but
that hasn't been decided.)  The PT68k doesn't have VDG windows,
either!  <grin>

                                - Tim Koonce



From: tim koonce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Coco-4
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: tim koonce <[e-mail]>

>>There is real danger of losing VDG screen access from the 6809 side,
>>but according to Eddie's repost here, the "GIME" (or whatever) chip is
>>on the 6809 side, so VDG should be safe for a while.
    From what I heard, they were (at one time at least) planning to
put the GIME memory separate from the 6809 CPU memory.  Which means no
more VDG.  But, with a 68k running the graphics, windows should be
fast enough for all but the most dedicated video-game freak.
(Finally got PacOS9.  Nice!)
                                        - Tim



Date:     Wed, 15 Nov 89 12:13:00 EST
From: Eddie Kuns <EKUNS@CANCER>
Subject: RE:  Next in line...
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: Eddie Kuns <EKUNS@CANCER>

#Since someone out here obviously has some connections with the people
#designing the CoCo3's successor.... here is my (and some others who are
#in the 2 user groups that I am involved in ... Rochester & NJ)

I'll post your message on Delphi.

# [...]  I was sort of looking forward to a 5MHz 6309... If
#the new computer will not give me an added advantage in the 8 bit world,
#I will not upgrade immediately (since I will not use the computer as
#much.... lets face it, the computer will be the same speed as the
#CoCo3, we will loose VDG windows (which alot of programs use), and programs
#that use real windows and are too slow on the CoCo3 will still be too
#slow on the new computer...  I doubt if the new 68K based computer will be th¡
at
#fast for the price....

Ignoring rumored fixes to the current OS-9 Level II that are rumored on Delphi
to speed up graphics screens by 6x and text screens by a number I forget, the
new machine will STILL be faster than the CoCo.  That 68070 isn't going to be
idle!  If you offload windowing stuff to the 68070 (and perhaps other I/O),
then the 6809 will be freed for REAL work!  Also, in the current
configuration, keeping VDG windows is a real possibility that you WON'T get
with the faster 6309 due to *COST*!  Also, remember the new machine is going
to have DMA for floppies/hard drives and a built in serial port!  I think it's
going to be faster than you think!  The fun thing about this setup is that
you'll be able to run both systems at the same time in separate windows!  If a
program crashes on one CPU, you can use the other to find out what went wrong!
 :-)

I'll try to post periodic updates as significant info becomes available.
Actually, I like your idea of 3MHz 6309.

                          - Eddy Kuns -


    id AA03349; Sun, 19 Nov 89 15:22:30 EST
From: Eddie Kuns <EKUNS@CANCER>
Subject: Reply from Kevin Darling on Delphi
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: Eddie Kuns <EKUNS@CANCER>

25206 16-NOV 04:00 General Information
     RE: CoCo 4? (Re: Msg 25191)
     From: OS9UGPRES    To: EDDIEKUNS

Thanks, Eddie. Please pass this back to them:

------

Thanks for the input! I'll send it on to them. But let me add some of my own
comments first in reply to yours:

I think the design may have changed since you wrote your message.. perhaps not.
There will be a 8-10Mhz 68070 standard, along with the 6809/GIME side. Because
the 070 can directly access the coco RAM, this provides for at least some
speedup by later having the 070 do the windowing for the 09. And don't forget
that the "new L-II version" alone will speed up windowing a lot at first, too!

You'll still have VDG windows under the current scheme; running the 09 faster
would get rid of that AND the 68K side with OS-9 included. I'd take the OSK
myself (after thinking about it a few days).

Yes! Please DO buy your $800+VGA-card PT68K system and do window software for
it! That would save ME a lot of trouble <grin> doing the 68K window code on th¡
is
machine. I'm looking forward to your 68K windint and grfdrv port that is "all
you have to do" <smile>.

You'll still be able to use your XT hard disk card, as far as I can tell, on t¡
he
CoCo bus side. And all your other cards from your MPI, too.

Good idea on the 32 bit bus. I'll ask about it, but think that's in there.

Looking forward to more ideas. Thanks! It does influence things. - ke


From: CZRT000 <[e-mail]>
Subject: New CoCo4
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>

Reagrding the all-new (and well designed) CoCo4, all I can say is

I am excited.

The thought of a PC is really bothering me - and yet I see the Amiga
as one of the few alternatives.

But what I really can't give up is OS9 - so I'm still plugging away
at 2MHz on my CoCo3.

Does Kevin Darling provide information on how we "mere" users could
support such a venture and/or BUY one of the CoCo4s?  Enquiring minds
like mine wanna know... ;-}

TELL ME MORE - please !
                                        James

[e-mail]


From: [e-mail]
Subject: Coco 4 /GoGo/CocoPro
Reply-To: [e-mail]

From: [e-mail]

Blew away another evening on CI$ and Delphi, got the latest word
on the Whatsitz.  These are the "facts" as stated by Kevin Darling,
with my and others' opinions and speculations hopefully
distinguishable:

There will be a real 68B09E, not an emulator, same old 2 MHz.
It will have its own GIME/DAT and video chip, and WILL have VDG
(personally re-assured from Kev D.).  Sounds like both CPUs share
the video hardware, actually.

The initial windowing system on the 68070 WILL be a clone of L2's,
same ESCape codes and all.

6809 L2 may be able to let the 68K handle its windows, which should
speed up the old grafix a lot.

The 6809's L2 will include Kevin's rumored GrfDrv rewrite,
to run "6 to 10 times faster" sez Kev.  At least for put/get
images on byte boundaries (covers Umuse3).
Also will include new syscalls to create Data Modules on the
fly right in memory.  This machine will certainly wean me away
from VDG, as Tim predicts!

RAM hardware will let you plug in your Disto 1 Meg daughter boards,
so go ahead and buy them now.  Not clear about the B&B HD stuff;
may have on-board SCSI, but at least your hard drives will work.

Probably only one RS232 port built in.  Bet lots of us would
prefer two.  Not clear about a parallel printer port (please!).

No TV support.  How many serious OS9ers need it, and lots of
FCC hassles.  Add on your own modulator if need be.
All mono and color monitors will work.

Chip sockets optional.  Will come pre-assembled or kit, but
not bare-board, since "they" can get the chips cheaper than you could
(depends on where you work :-) ).

VME Bus:  Refuses to go away, but the CocoPro motherboard will
just be a VME card itself, with the edge connectors.
Those who want VME must supply their own backplane, cage, and
other VME cards; mercifully  these won't be part of CocoPro.

Still uncertain whether PC Bus will be included, or an external
option.

Not certain that one CPU can debug the other, or that each can
be running in their own windows (neat!), tho lots of folks talk
like these are facts.  [Wonder what happens when they both open
the printer?]

I asked but don't yet have the answer as to how fast the 68070 CPU
can be clocked.  Would like >8 MHz so we can say "Kiss my assembler"
to the Amiga/SToids.

The 68070 is Motorola's 80186 -- a plain vanilla 68000 with on-chip
DMA, MMU, and interrupt prioritizing.  All the things you REALLY
need.  [I designed an 80186 board for work a few years back,
and it was real nice to have all that stuff in there.]
This will keep the cost and board size down by a lot.

I mentioned to PT68 to Kev and we agreed on the same points as
others made here -- no 6809 compat, no VDG, no windows on the OSK,
no recycling your Coco peripherals.

Not clear what Microware will want for Basic09, C's, and OSK.
Apparently "they" have a good deal on the new improved L2.
[Given what this baby could do for OSK and raise the next generation
of OSK lovers & hackers, Microware ought to support it at
their cost.  Especially since industrial users can plug CocoPro
right into their VME cabinets and run RAVE in windows.
No more soiling their image with RatShack games!].

At least two major backers are putting up the capital funds to
manufacture this thing.  Kev gets lots of mail from folks
wanting to buy stock in it!

It's really gonna happen.  Just typing about COcopro does more for
my heart rate than COcaine or COffee.


From: [e-mail]
Subject: Coco-4 and 680x0
Reply-To: [e-mail]

From: [e-mail]

In response to some private email -- no, the feeling I got
from CI$ and Delphi is that the GoGo-IV or whatever will
be designed strictly around the 68070, Moto's version of the 80186
(meaning major support chips integrated onto the CPU chip).
This saves a lot of money and board space.  The '070  only goes
up to 10 MHz or so, not much improvement over the Amiga/ST crowd.
I don't know about a socket for a math co-proc -- that would be a
good idea for advanced 3-D grafix and other number-crunching
applications, and maybe wouldn't add much to cost except to
board space.  I'll try to remember to hit Kevin D. with it
next time I'm on.

Maybe our favorite walkie-talkie company is working on a faster
version of the 68070, or Hitachi will come out with a faster
CMOS version a la 6309.

Don't forget that the faster you clock the CPU, the faster your
RAM and peripheral chips have to go too, and of course the
grafix hardware still has to slip its RAM reads in between
everyone else's.  THis raises cost and can make things flakey.

Finally, since the beast is apparently going to use standard
TV scan rates, the clock frequency is probably locked to some
harmonic of 3.58  MHz.  This is why our Cocos are .895 and 1.79
MHz instead of nice even 1 and 2 MHz, and why Amiga is 7.16
instead of 8, etc.  Maybe we will get 8.95 MHz (5x the 6809 side)
-- at least we could claim to be faster than the Amiga and
hope nobody asks "by how much?".

Don't forget this is to be a LOW COST platform for Windowing OSK,
not a blazing number-smasher, and the 6809 may help with I/O
chores to give us a much faster *effective* clock rate.
Of course I'd like to see max 680x0 speed for faster grafix,
but at least the screen won't freeze during I/O.

If this first design sells really well, then someone can worry about
bringing out the "turbo" modle(s)...

All the above is my own speculation and opinions. --mike k


From: LICHTENBERG@SHERCOL1
Subject: Coco - 4
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: LICHTENBERG@SHERCOL1

I don't think Tandy will mind us using the Coco concept, Tandy got the
idea from a Motrola data book from 1979, I think it is fearly public
material. But I could be wrong.

               Frans......


From: tim koonce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: TANDY path needed
Reply-To: tim koonce <[e-mail]>

>>If you REALLY want the coco4, lets TRY to get tandy VERY involved
>>through user mail(kinda like viewer mail)!!!!

Well, this will probably come off somewhat pessimistic, but here's my
opinions:

1) Tandy will never market a successor to the CoCo3.
    Reason: Simple economics.  They can now make a PClone motherboard
just as cheaply as a CoCo motherboard.  The PClone is easier to sell,
and it gets them out of the high overhead of maintaining software
support for incompatible computers.  (If they can take the same
in-store space, and put software in that space which will run on _all_
of their machines, that's _much_ better for them than splitting that
space between incompatible machines.)  The only reason the CoCo3 is
still on their list is because it is cheaper than the PClones (because
it doesn't come with frills like a disk drive), and sells a lot to
students, parents who want to give their kid a Christmas present, and
others on fixed incomes.  But, if they added a built-in disk drive,
decent keyboard, built-in serial port, etc, it would be quite likely
more expensive than a PClone.  I doubt such a machine could sell at
all, except to the already established CoCo users, which probably
isn't enough for Tandy.
     The earlier rumours of Tandy working on a CoCo3 machine mostly
revolved around changes to cut the cost.  The most-repeated rumour was
that they were going to eliminate the built-in BASIC, in order to cut
their costs on royalties to Microsoft.  (I always wondered what would
have happened to the third-party software market if Tandy had killed
RSDOS.  That probably explains why Tandy refused to sell RSDOS software.)

2) So, a successor to the CoCo3 will have to come from some third party.
     Which is exactly what the current CoCoPro (My name) design is.  A
smaller company can market to a smaller market.  If Tandy sells only
500-1,000 of some computer, then that's a major loss for them.  If the
(small) company being formed to market the CoCoPro sells 500-1,000
computers, they might break even!

3) We _can_ look to Tandy for some software support.
     If the CoCoPro runs 6809 OS9 Level II with CoCo 3 windows, then
it will run Tandy OS9 software.  _If_ that software ever appears.  The
vast bulk of Tandy software is written by third parties, and then sold
with Tandy's name on it (just like most of their calculators!).  Tandy
almost never contracts out for new software, and almost never writes
stuff in-house.  Most of their PC stuff is just brand-name software
packaged for their systems.  The only major stuff they're doing
in-house is Deskmate.  (Which makes me glad they don't do too much
more. ;-) If you want Tandy to sell CoCo software, then start writing!
If it's good, Tandy will sell it.  (Think about that when you want to
complain about Tandy not selling good CoCo software!)  As long as the
CoCoPro does support a 6809 and/or a 6809 emulator, Tandy stuff should
run (with the possible exception of VDG games).

4) The bulk of support for any new (3rd party) machine will come from
the User's group, and the current CoCo magazine(s).
     Why?  Because they're there.

5) Our best bet is to get _authors_ writing good OS9 software NOW.
     Since the CoCoPro will support the same windowing environment
as the CoCo3, software written for the CoCo3 will port very quickly.
(If it's well written in a high-level language.)  If people (this
means YOU! :-) start working on things NOW, they will be ready
for the CoCo3 market just about the time the CoCoPro comes out.
Porting to OS9/68k should be very quick.  I'm already working
on some stuff, are you?  If not, I'll be happy to work up another
"idea list" <grin>.  If you know people in your computer club that
like programming, start talking with them about ideas.


                                        - Tim Koonce

Subject: Re: Tandy path?
Reply-To: [e-mail]

From: [e-mail]

It appears that the Coco-4 project is being pursued totally
independently (financially, technically, and people-wise)
from Tandy.  Are you sure you want The Shackers to get their
fingers in "our" pie?  Maybe Tandy is already supporting us
by staying out of the way.

Not a joke.  Surely by now the "Coco-4 project" folks have felt
out Tandy, and gotten some reassurance that Tandy will not sue
them over the use of Coco concepts and the OS9 L2 windowing
interface, etc.  Considering how many computer companies today
prefer to throw lawyers at their competitors rather than sic
engineers & programmers on the real problem, such a promise
from Tandy would count as a major positive contribution.

[If companies would physically put lawyers into catapults
or circus cannons and literally hurl them at competitors'
office buildings, that would be a GREAT idea!  What's the sound
of a lawyer hitting a brick wall at 300 MPH?  Hard to say,
can't hear over the cheers and whistles!]

Seriously, Tandy can't lose.  They're winding down the Coco family
and tired of supporting it for anything beyond NitwiTendencies.
Wouldn't it be lovely if some 3rd party would take over its future,
and Tandy could pick up some occasional sales of peripherals and
of course OS9-L2 and the really good L2 games (Sub, Flight,
Carmen Santiago, Microscope Mission, etc).  Plus the fame and glory
for having started the Coco.  Talk about a "cash cow!"

The above is all speculation -- I don't know what sort of deals
have been worked out yet with Tandy and Microware.  Personally
I worry more about M'ware's management than Tandy's.

----

Subject: Coco-4 be 8- or 16-bit?
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Status: OR

From: [e-mail]

I'm pretty sure the Coco-4 will have a regular 16-bit bus,
not the 8-bit bus of a 68008 as used in the Sinclair QL.
On Delphi/CI$ there's been discussion of the PC bus extension,
whether it should be plain old PC/XT 8-bit or PC/AT 16-bit (to use
more recent, powerful cards).  I don't think the wider AT bus
would be considered if the CPU had only 8 bits.

Of course the Coco-compatible bus side (sorta like an MPI)
will still be 8-bit.  This should pose no problems,
since 680x0's are all comfortable with byte addresses
(but not on word or longword accesses!).

I should look up the 68070 in some Moto catalog and make sure.
Perhaps there is a 68078, just as Intel makes an 80188,
for 8-bit systems.


Subject: 68070, Motorola, Hitachi

And another thing - seems Mot and Hat aren't getting along as well as they
once were, and Mot is getting into bed with (AcK!) Toshiba for Megabit DRAMs.
Also, I believe Hitachi itself is holding up the 68040 while they claim
patent infringement against Motorola and vice-versa on a Hat. chip....

Invoking personal opinion mode, they've gone from one of the best Asian
semi makers to one of the worst.  Kinda like going from Honda to Hyundai,
except Hyundai didn't sell multi-access propeller machining equipment to
the Soviets, or at least they were smart enough to conceal it ;-).

Yes, I AM very non-plussed about what's happening between Hitachi and Motorola!




From: Don Ingli <AGRISCS@UMCVMB>
Subject: TANDY path needed
Reply-To: Don Ingli <AGRISCS@UMCVMB>
Status: OR

Folx, we need to get a direct path to someone who knows whats going on that
works at TANDY. (yea right, knows and works..).  I have found paths to
AT&T, microsoft and other companies to get contacts. (my microsoft contact
no longer exists.)  Somewhere, somehow, there is a link to the desk of a
willing TANDY employee...  Let's find that link.

Does anyone know anyone that can get us started??

If you REALLY want the coco4, lets TRY to get tandy VERY involved through
user mail(kinda like viewer mail)!!!!

Suggestions??? Ideas???


+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+
|  DON INGLI                                                           |
|  UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE - SOIL CONSERVATION SERVICE |
|  WORK: [phone]      FAX: [phone]                       |
|                                                                      |
| bitnet: [e-mail]  internet: [e-mail] |
| attmail: attmail!attbl!arpa!umcvmb.missouri.edu!agriscs              |
|                                                                      |
| ALL OPINIONS IN THIS NOTE ARE OF MY OWN AND DO NOT REPRESENT THE     |
| FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR THE UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI-COLUMBIA            |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+


Subject: Re: Coco-4 and 680x0
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Tue, 21 Nov 89 14:00:00 -0600.

>Maybe our favorite walkie-talkie company is working on a faster
>version of the 68070, or Hitachi will come out with a faster
>CMOS version a la 6309.

Remember, the 68070 is a Signetics chip...

    James Jones

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Coco-4 Grafix Specs
Reply-To: [e-mail]

From: [e-mail]

Over the TG holidays I got some hard info from CI$ from a
posting by Kevin Darling on the Coco-4's grafix hardware
and capabilities.

There will definitely be a real 68B09E chip and what Kevin
calls a "GIME" chip on the 6809 side.  Haven't seen anyone ask whether
a real Tandy GIME chip will be used, or some kind of home-grown
replacement (very expensive and slow to design) or an equivalent
built up of TTL logic chips (would take dozens of them, not
likely).  Maybe they offered Tandy a great price for their last batch
of GIMEs.

I don't know whether Coco 1/2 compatibility will be preserved,
tho use of a stock Tandy GIME would insure this.  There are some
Level 1 games and educational programs (One on One, Rocky's Boots,
shareware Umuse) that run fine under Level 2 on a Coco 3.
Personally I'd give up Coco 1/2 compatibility to get back all those
I/O addresses eaten up by the old SAM/VDG combination
(you know, the Speed POKE addresses and such).

Don't look for any RSDOS-BASIC in ROM.  Masochists could probably
boot it up from a disk prepared on a Coco 3.


On the 68070 side, the grafix, DRAM control, and address multiplexing
(like the old Coco 1/2 SAM chip) will be done by a
Phillips "VSC" chip, the SCC-66470-B.  Anyone out there got
a Phillips catalog?

This VSC can do up to 720x480 pixels of NTSC (color TV)
and can be Gen-Locked to an external video signal a la Amiga.
It can scroll grafix (like the newer GIME under RSDOS)
and includes a "pixel logic" register that you can preset
to OR, AND, XOR, or just WRITE new images over the existing
grafix -- this will greatly speed up grafix.

There may be "bit planes" with priorities -- if so, you could
do overlapping windows in hardware, up to a small number of levels.

The board will be sold only soldered and tested, but it's still
a "kit" in that you have to mount it in a case with power supply
and such.



From: tim koonce <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: tim koonce <[e-mail]>

>>I want to get a few things strait on this COCO-4 since I will almost
>>definately buy one.
Well, I've been following the discussion on Delphi, so this may not be
completely up-to-date.  Apparently, the final design is still in flux,
as they try to figure out what they can fit into the available board
space.

>>Will it use all/most of the add-ons that I have now?  Disto 4in1, RS-232 pak,
>>512k upgrade (1 meg soon), X-pad (that uses a hi/low-res joystk input) etc...
Yes.  It will have a CoCo3-compatible bus for all of those.  It is apparently
being designed with Disto's 1 meg upgrade in mind, so don't put off buying it!
The RS232pak may be unneeded, since they're talking about putting 1 or 2
serial ports on board, but it can't hurt!

>>Will it have both a 68B09/GIME  _and_ a 68070?
Depends.  CoCo3 compatibility is _very_ high on their list of priorities.
There are people working on a CoCo3 emulator for OS9/68k.  If that gets
finished soon enough, they may just go with the 68070.

>>Is a 68070 a 16 or 32  bit processor?
   It's just like the 68000 as far as I know, except a little slower and
has a bunch of nice stuff on-board.  i.e. 32-bit with 16-bit data bus, 24 bit
address bus, plus DMA and MMU on-board.  There has apparently been debate
between a 12meg 68070 and a 16meg 68000.  The 68000 requires more support
chips (hence more board space), so I suspect they are more likely to go
that direction if the CoCo3 emulator comes through.

>>Will it come WITH OSK?
   I dunno.  Good question.  I'll pass it along.  I don't know what
state their negotiations with Microware about this are in.

>>There was some mention of a PC bus.  Does this mean that it will accept a
>>'386 or '486 co-processor board or just PC cards (modems, voice, etc...)
  The bus question is apparently the biggest question still up in the air.
The CoCo3 bus is pretty assured.  Probably there will be one other.  Still
a toss up between VME and PC, last I heard.  Apparently, they had almost
decided to put a VME bus with the option of having an external add-on
PC bus, but that's being debated now.  Personally, I think the VME bus
is a Good Idea, since we may get commercial buyers interested.

>>If it will allow a PC processor, will it work the same as the Amiga
>>system which allows the PC processor to access the Amiga graphics (and
>>other hardware) and will multitask with Amiga-DOS?
   I suspect that that is certainly possible.  The big problem (as always)
is the drivers.  If you'll write the drivers, it can happen!  <grin>

>>Will it have higher resolution graphics than we now have on the COCO?
>>(4096 colors? +?)
   What's being talked about now is just having the GIME on the motherboard,
with an add-on graphics board built around some Phillips chip.  Dunno the
details, but I remember it sounded nice.

>>I have an AT case wi. pwr supply, 101 key keyboard, and hard disk
>>(SASI).  Will I be able to buy a kit version and use what I have now
>>with it?
   There's been some talk of a custom case, so I'm not sure about that.
Certainly the keyboard and hard disk will just plug in;  there should
even be built-in SCSI on the motherboard.

>>Magnivox 515 monitor -- will the COCO-4 have the same analog RGB?
   Yes, at least for the GIME stuff.  The advanced graphics board may
require a better monitor, though.  Dunno if the Magnavox will handle
800 x 400 (approx the resolution that was being tossed around).

>>How much $$$.$$ should I salt away?
   Current estimate if $500-$800 for the motherboard.  Dunno if that
includes OSk (hope so!).  If it fits a PC/AT case, that should be it
for many of us.

>>Answers to any or all of these questions would be appreciated.  I
>>realize that the answers have been changing daily, but I think that
>>the design is finalized now so the specs. should be available.
    I think the design is far from finalized, although some things
are apparently starting to firm up.  The big questions appear to be:
What bus to use?  and  Will the CoCo3 emulator get done in time, or
should there be a 6809 on board?  (The two will be about the same speed!)

>>And one more question (two actually), who is making it [assembling],
>>and how many units NEED to be sold for a break-even situation?
    I'll ask, but I doubt there'll be a straight answer.  It appears
that the people doing the design prefer that Kevin handle the PR work
and seem to like their anonymity.  Kevin keeps rumouring about financial
backing that's coming from somewhere, but with design and price still
undecided, nobody knows how many need to be sold.  Apparently their goal
is 1,000 units.

>>If someone wants to pass this note to K. Darling... do.
    I'll ask some of your questions on Delphi, and relay back anything
that comes up.

>>               thnkx,
>>              ~Kevin 0'B
                                                - Tim Koonce

From: bill gunshannon <702WFG@SCRVMSYS>
Subject: Re: COCO 4
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>

With all this talk about a none TANDY COCO 4 being created, I feel like
I missed something.  Has TANDY anounced the demise of the COCO line?
If anyone has any REAL info (not the usual rumors) I would appreciate
hearing it.

Thank You.

                                          bill gunshannon
                                       [e-mail]


From: Eddie Kuns <EKUNS@PISCES>
Subject: RE: CoCo: The New Generation
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: Eddie Kuns <EKUNS@PISCES>

#       On another topic (from a programmer's standpoint), we were
#       wondering if the new computer will have problems with the
#       keyboard as CoCo 3's (as well as Apple //e's and probably
#       others) have.  The problem we are hoping the designers can
#       avoid is the irreliability of getting the computer to recognize
#       sequences of multiple keypresses at one time (for example,
#       CTRL-SHIFT-UPARROW).

Well, it will be using an IBM PC (AT?) style keyboard, so I think that rules
out the kind of trouble you're referring to.  (right????)

#       Could someone please forward this to Kevin, as we would greatly
#       appreciate hearing his feedback on our suggestions.  (Has Kevin
#       subscribed to COCO?  As I understand it, if he subscribed, then
#       he could see our mail but could not reply to us directly.  Is
#       this correct?)

I'll forward this message to Delphi, and bring the reply back to CoCo.  If he
subscribed to CoCo on compuserve, then he would be able to reply.



From: [e-mail]
Subject: Coco-4, Laser printer, keyboards
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>

From: [e-mail]

Nice to see Frank back on the list.
Is there anything special about hooking up a laser jet printer?
Is plain old RS232 at 19.2 Baud too slow?  My experience at work
is that for graphics that IS too slow, and some printers hook
directly to EtherNet or whatever.

The 68K side is supposed to have a SCSI interface, mostly for hard
drive, but maybe that can be bussed to a laser printer if it
has SCSI input.  Anyone out there know more about laser printers
and how they're typically hooked up to PCs?

I'm pretty sure the keyboard interface will just let you plug
in any PClone keyboard, and the appripriate people are working
that end.  Note that PC keyboards vary widely in their quality
in terms of handling multiple-key "chords" and rollovers and such.

For example, the keyboard sold by AZ Peripherals has a bug with
rolloever -- if you type a [ followed by a ] and let the two keys
overlap, you get a freebie '9' when you let up the ] key.
Bob Puppa (designer of the Eagle adapter board) tells me that
their keyboard is NOT quite IBM standard.

It does correctly transmit CTRL and SHIFT keypressures to the
Coco-3, for Umuse3 playing and picking out overlapping notes with
the mouse.

So -- when the Coco-4 or whatever hits, I expect to see some reviews
of which aftermarket keyboards are best.



From: mwood!attcc![e-mail]
Subject: CoCo's New Name
Reply-To: mwood!attcc![e-mail]

Well, I have just TWO small suggestions for the new CoCo.

1>  This is a request from a few locals.  PUT A NUMBER PAD ON THE KEYBOARD!!!
    I've been hearing this for a year, and it sounds good to me!

2>  I think the name CoCoPlus is very catchy.  I have nothing against the
name CoCoPro, I just like Plus better.

Howard Wilson



From: Brian Stretch <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: this is from Kevin D.
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: Brian Stretch <[e-mail]>

Tell Kevin to read up on how his Amiga 1000 handles printers with its
printer descriptors.. would be great with the CoCo4.


From: mwood!attcc![e-mail]
Subject: CoCo's New Name
Reply-To: mwood!attcc![e-mail]

Well, I have just TWO small suggestions for the new CoCo.

1>  This is a request from a few locals.  PUT A NUMBER PAD ON THE KEYBOARD!!!
    I've been hearing this for a year, and it sounds good to me!

2>  I think the name CoCoPlus is very catchy.  I have nothing against the
name CoCoPro, I just like Plus better.

Howard Wilson



From: [e-mail]
Subject: Latest on Coco-4
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: [e-mail]


From: [e-mail]

>From CI$ this morning -- messages to/from Kevin Darling
firm up some facts about the CocoPro, CocoPlus, KMA, ...

The motherboard will have plug-in sockets for four cards,
each optional (more or less) at extra cost:

(1) 6809 with GIME and 512K RAM to run Coco-3 OS9L2 programs.
Actually the GIME is an empty socket -- you steal your Coco-3's
GIME and plug it in!  This gets around Tandy legal problems
(boy will they get a lot of GIME "repair part" orders).
Likewise the RAM area is empty, and you plug your stock Tandy
or 3rd-party 512K daughter board on that.  And I assume your DISTO
1-Meg if ya got it.  Probably this board also has some stock Coco
peripheral hardware -- RS232, mouse/stick, and a socket to stick
your disk controller or MPI into.

(2) SCSI interface board for floppy and hard drives, with DMA.
This is for the 68K side, but might also be usable by the 6809
for users who don't already have disk controllers or who want
the extra no-halt DMA performance.

(3) 68070 board with the Phillips VSC chip.  If you get this you
must take OSK, probably in ROM.  Maybe you have to take this board
and OSK to buy a CocoPro at all.  The political motivation here
is to get us all to move to OSK, so you get it whether you want it
or not.  Anybody here really not want it?  Aw c'mon...

Not clear whether you can plug your old 512K boards into this one.
All video outputs and modes will be included.
Hopefully you can switch between OS9 and OSK windows with the
good old CLEAR key.

Early on, this board will be able to take L2 window grafix ESCape
commands from the 6809.  I expect this will wean UltiMusE away
from the VDG screens at last, and MVCanvas will be a pleasure to operate.

(4) 68030 board with Math Coprocessor and all that other power-user
stuff for those who just gotta outrun the Amigas and Mac IIs.
Don't know whether this replaces the 68070 board -- seems to me
you still need that for the grafix or even text.
I'd guess this board is the low priority back-burner item.

Someone posted an impassioned plea for RSBASIC support.
He was shot down with the fact that RSDOS programs obey no rules,
so the hardware would have to be entirely Coco-3 (AND 1/2)
compatible, which is just too damn much extra stuff.
"In fact, Coco 1/2 compatibility messed up the Coco-3 bad enough."
Of course you can run Burke's "RS-BASIC" under OS9, for well-behaved
(no machine code) programs.

Someone on CI$ called Microware to get prices on both "personal OSK"
(no development tools) and the development package (C, Make,
assembler).  Personal OSK gets down to $45 a copy in >1000 quantities,
about what Microsoft used to charge Tandy for RSBASIC :-).
Development is $600 for one, but gets down around $100 for 1000,
which I would have no qualms about paying (hell I paid $99 for
the L1 Coco C compiler, and another $99 for the package with
Make!).  I'd balk at $600 for the stuff tho.  Folks on CI$ were
urging Kevin & Co (they need a name too, just like the machine)
to buy in bulk from Microware and get our prices down.

Some were referring to The Machine as the "KMA" -- don't know where
that came from -- K for Kevin?  Uh-oh, I remember now --
"Kiss my A**" (or "Kill Most Amigas/Ataris/Apples").

Kevin had his heart set on a really cheap starter board that
would fit in a Coco-3 case, connect to a Coco-3 keyboard ribbon,
and have its standard 40-bin Coco bus at the right side for
the usual plug-ins.  Ya know, just replace your Coco-3's
board and nobody'd know the difference till they turned it on.
However, this idea got shelved since such a board couldn't
accomodate all the plug-ins listed above.  It may get thawed
out in the future, tho.  Would have sold around $200.

The big board will mount in a PC case and use a PC keyboard
and power supply.  It seems that the different daughter boards
can share some of the memory space.

That's it for now -- mike k.



From: Brian Stretch <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Latest on Coco-4
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: Brian Stretch <[e-mail]>

Wha?  Aren't the CoCo4 ports (ser/par/SCSI) going to be shared by all the
processor boards?  SCSI should have been built in, too, and not wasting a
card slot.. would save a lot of trouble.  <Sigh>..

The Phillips VSC should be nice.. but what about sound?

The CoCo4 MUST beat the Amiga and Mac in performance (both of the
previous
beat I*M's..), OSK or otherwise.  For cryin' out loud, DON'T SKIMP!

From: Frank Farm <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Latest on Coco-4
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: Frank Farm <[e-mail]>
X-To:         [e-mail]

> Hopefully you can switch between OS9 and OSK windows with the
> good old CLEAR key.

Thanks for the update, Mike.  I just have a small curiosity about
the window-switcher key, tho.  I haven't got one of Those Other
Computers in front of me, but I don't remember it having a key
labeled CLEAR.  Am I just being forgetful, or are they going to have
to map the window-switcher key to something else?  (If so, then
which one gets to be the all-important key?)

-- frank


| Date: Fri, 8 Dec 89 12:21:51 PST
| From: tim koonce <[e-mail]>
| Subject: CoCoPlus/OSK/ramblings.
| Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
| To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
| Reply-to: tim koonce <[e-mail]>
|
| Here's some responses/comments to recent list postings:
|
-- Yes, all of the TOP stuff will definitely run on the CoCoPlus
(assuming you have the memory).  Now you know why people are pushing
to get the CoCo OS9 community moving into OSk!

-- Glad to hear the design is finalizing.  Sounds good.  I hope they
do force the 68070 as the base system, and keep the 6809 as an add-on.
That's the route I prefer.  (Especially if they get that 6809 emulator
working!)  (Only $99 for Professional OSk in quantity!!  Yowza!  That
means about $250 retail, maybe, after all the graphics stuff gets
added??  <hope, hope> I'm counting pennies even as we speak :-)

-- I beleive the Phillips VSC supports some sort of sound.  Anybody
got a Phillips book around??  In my opinion, the best sound is a DMA
channel feeding an 8-bit D/A.  (like the Mac...)  Cheap and flexible.

-- As for sharing ports between processor boards, one of the fancy
things that will come down eventually is that the 6809 will become an
I/O processor for the 68070.  That will _greatly_ improve I/O
performance.  I beleive they will all be accessible from all
processors anyway.  That was in an earlier design, at least.

-- As for built-in SCSI, they were probably trying to keep down costs.
Since most of the first-round buyers will be people who already have
CoCo3 hard-disk interfaces, they probably saw it as an additional
expense that they could remove from the first-round production.  Makes
sense to me.

>>The CoCo4 MUST beat the Amiga and Mac in performance
     What type of performance do you mean?  CPU speed?  Memory?
Graphics speed?  Ease of use?  Software Availability?  With no
context, this is a pretty meaningless statement.  There is no such
thing as "overall performance", as you can tell by watching the
b___s___ written up by the PC rags on "benchmarks".  If you have
concrete suggestions, please give them.

Viruses and OS9: So far, we haven't seen much.  Certainly, it IS
possible, but OS9's CRC checking makes it a bit more complicated to
patch things on disk directly, which is what most of the PC viruses
do to spread.  That will deter people for a while, at least.
   As for comparative difficulty of infection, I'd guess OS9 is about
on a level with the Mac, which has seen much less virus activity than
the PC.  (There's too much low-level stuff easily accessible on the
PC.)
   For now, we see the blessings of being a less-popular system.  Most
virus writers want to see their little creation spread.  There's a lot
more IBM/Mac/Amiga/ST/Apple ][ computers out there for them to spread
to.  Of course, in a few years, when _everyone_ is running OS9 or
OS9000, <grin> we might have to worry.

Re: fast system clock.  Somebody figured out what caused that, but for
the life of me, I can't remember the diagnosis.  Check all the standard
stuff:  GIME socketing, RAM board not in too far, CRC's of boot modules.
Seems like it might have to do with boot order or interrupts, but I
can't recall.  Sorry.
                                        - Tim Koonce


| Date: Fri, 8 Dec 89 14:03:00 CST
| From: [e-mail]
| Subject: CLEAR key on PClone keygoards
| Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
| To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
| Reply-to: [e-mail]

From: [e-mail]

Frank, you're right, IntlBwlMvt boards don't have a CLEAR key
(tho I see my 630 BLIT does, tho it does nothing).

Most newer ones have some extra buytton or other that can be
used.  The AZ Peripherals job uses a HOME key in just the right
place.  On the Classic IBM PC board in the office, the only
candidates would be Scrol Lock or Number Lock.  Scroll Lock
unfortunately also includes BREAK.  Tho you can use CTRL-E for
that.

Other useless keys not far from the "right place" are Pgm Up/Down,
PrtScrn, Insert, Delete, etc etc.
And of course the most-hated-Hitler/Kadaffi key of all, SHift Lock,
a.k.a. Pliers Bait.

Might be a problem telling the Coco-4's OS9s what key code to
use on YOUR keyboard.  Let's hear it for Standards.
What?  Standards?  Where?

By the way, I got some private Email to the effect that almost all
the functions of the Eagle adapter are in the Coco board, but many
of the bugs are in the keyboard used -- the sender cured them by
getting a genuine IBM keyboard.

From: [e-mail] (Brett Wynkoop)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.m6809,comp.os.os9
Subject: 1 MEG COCO
Keywords: DISTO CRC UPGRADE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 89 00:32:20 GMT
Organization: DP&W, New York, NY
Lines: 21


Greeting-
     I got some bad news today about the Disto 1 meg upgrade.
The company that was making the boards for CRC went belly up and
has returned the schematic/artwork to CRC.  No boards.  They told
me that they hope to have units ready to ship by mid Jan. 1990.
They already have sent the stuff to another board maker.  Guess
we will just have to wait.  At this point the question is which
will come first 1 meg or the KMA-68?

Feel to repost this message in its entirity any where you want.


-Brett

------------end of forwarded message----------------------------------
Aw, darn I was hoping to get the 1 meg upgrade soon. It looks like
I'll be waiting a while!
------>Neil




    id AA10024; Thu, 14 Dec 89 11:17:03 EST
 8763; Wed, 13 Dec 89 12:40:20 EST
Date:     Wed, 13 Dec 89 12:26:01 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: This is forwarded from comp.os.os9.
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 89 10:51:00 -0500.
 <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>

>I spoke to him last night about the level2 upgrade stuff
>and he said it is done, but it is not going to be released.  Time to get to
>work re-inventing the wheel guys!

It's hard for me to believe that as much work as must have gone into the
alleged upgrade, given the reports of what it can do, would just be dropped.
Is Mr. W sure that he has correctly interpreted what he heard?

    James Jones




Subject: Forwarded message  cm-8 and coco4
Date:     Wed, 13 Dec 89 14:35:38 EST
From: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Status: OR
Reply-to: mwood!attcc![e-mail]

Will there be a port for the CM-8 monitor?  If the graphics will be far
superior than the graphics on the Coco 3, will it mean I have to get a
new monitor to access the higher modes?

Huy Nguyen


Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 89 19:35:02 GMT
Organization: DP&W, New York, NY

Lines: 10
Greeting-
     There was some discussion here of doing a re write of grfinit and
windinit for smaller size/improved preformance a while back.  As I recall
the issue was tabled when Kevin Darling said it was being worked on and
would be released with a level2 upgrade he and friends would be releasing
circa the fest.  I spoke to him last night about the level2 upgrade stuff
and he said it is done, but it is not going to be released.  Time to get to
work re-inventing the wheel guys!

-Brett

---------------end of forwarded message------------
Not to be relesed eh? Well this doesn't look good.......
---->Neil



Subject: Forwarded message  cm-8 and coco4
Date:     Wed, 13 Dec 89 14:36:33 EST
From: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: tim koonce <[e-mail]>
Subject: cm-8 and coco4
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-to: tim koonce <[e-mail]>

Since part of the goal is to keep the entry level cost for people with
functioning CoCo 3 systems as low as possible, I can almost gaurantee
that it will work with the CM8.  You may not be able to use the 400 scan
line modes on the CM8, but it seems doubtful that any software will
use those modes right away.  The CM8 will certainly work fine for a while.

                                                - Tim Koonce

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 89 13:10:22 EST
From: Brian Stretch <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: cm-8 and coco4
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-to: Brian Stretch <[e-mail]>

If the Phillips chip has an interlace 400 scanline mode, then you can use
the CM8 in 400 line mode (same as the Amiga).  The interlace flicker makes
for horrifying eyestrain on most text (remember, that halves that screen
refresh rate), but graphics are usually okay.. the added resolution is great.
(Turning down contrast cuts down on flicker.. good for text.. a filter screen
works well also.)

That Phillips chip sounds suspiciously like the Amiga's graphics chip.. at
least in specs.. anyone got the specs on the VDC?!


Date: Tue, 12 Dec 89 14:46:00 EST
From: LHARRIS@CLEMSON
Subject: coco4
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-to: LHARRIS@CLEMSON

When will prototypes of the new coco 4 be completed?  Last I heard,
someone said in a month (that was about a month ago).  How is progress
comming with it... I know almost nothing gets done in the predicted
amount of time :-)

I figured out how to append my sig file properly!!  Cant wait to get
this message back and see how the net abuse the ASCII graphics...
(I'm set on repro).

Merry X to all...
........................................................................
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<    /     /|    /'''/ /'''/ |  / > [e-mail]          >
<__ /     / |   /   / /   /  | / _> RELAY: "DUNE_BUGGY"             >
<- /     /--|  /--|- /--|-   |/ --> ** THIS SPACE AVAILABLE FOR **  >
< /____ /   | /   | /   |    /    > ADVERTISING, CALL 803-656-7627  >
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
--"ONE DAY I'LL FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET THIS STUPID THING IN LOWERCASE"




Subject: 6809 vs. 68K graphics processor
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
X-To:         [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Status: OR

Seems like the 6809 would have a hard time talking to the screen memory for
a 400 line display which (given 640 pixels/line) takes 32KB for mono, 64KB
for 4 color, etc.  Know what I mean?  If we stick to syscalls it won't
matter who's doing the real work, and I would bet the 68K would be 5 or 10
times faster (WAG).

Neal Sedell


Reply-To: mwood!attcc![e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Status: OR

About the KMA machine, since it's running a 68000, couldn't one use a Unix
port (if they have/will one)?
Who will sell it?  Microware?  Motorola?  Kevin D.?  3rd party?
Who will sell the OS-9 for it?

Also, heard somewhere that a new revision of OS9 will come out.  Who will sell
that?  And will the registration card I sent in give me a discount?

And since I can't seem to get a "tone" under C, would someone write a little
subroutine in C.  I want it to be able to use the os9 system calls not print
out a control-G or ascii 7 (thanks to all those that sent me messages on using
that beep, sounded kinda wierd having a ball "beep" instead of "boing" :-)

Here's what I had to "try" to make a bouncing tone:

#include <os9.h>

struct registers *regs;

<other subroutines>

tone()
{
    char code;
    code=0x8e;
    regs.rg_a=1;
    regs.rg_b=0x98;
    regs.rg_x=0x3f01;
    regs.rg_y=4000;
    _os9(code,regs);
}

But whenever I call the subroutine, I don't get any sound at all.  What it does
do is disable my BREAK key (so I had to switched to another window to kill
the process).

Huy Nguyen




From: CoCo Labs <DJH9381@RITVAX>
Subject: CoCo3 Successor
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: CoCo Labs <DJH9381@RITVAX>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Status: OR

I just had a message from Bruce Isted today...

He told me that it seems like there will be 2 models released - one
pushing the 6809 side while the other will push 68K...

Dave



From: [e-mail]
Subject: Coco 4, KMA, ...
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>

From: [e-mail]

Glad to hear what Bruce Isted said (about two models, tho that may cause
problems).

But a negative note:  I was on CIS a couple nites aggo, after 10 days
absence, and almost NO new messages had been posted in the "Hot
Topics" thread, the one everyone uses for the Coco4.  Maybe everyone's
all speculated out and just waiting for some hard facts,
but I found this kind of strange.

BTW, ws it here or on CIS that someone reported seeing a prototype
running, on or about Jan 4?  It was on two breadboards but the
68070 grafix were very impressive in looks and SPEED.
The vapors are condensing...



From: Kevin Darling <[e-mail]>
Subject: 6809 Emulation/KMA
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: Kevin Darling <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Status: O

In response to Brian Wright:

> Guess they couldn't get it to emulate a 6809, eh?

If you meant (and apologies if you didn't) the KMA, then yes it's running
most 6809 code via an emulation right now. Far too slow for constant use,
but that'll improve. But the 6809 compilers, editors and basic09 do run!

Very handy if you have a filter you need to use, for example. I just
type "dir ! m6809 wc" and the 68000 dir command is piped to the 6809
wordcount util (which for now comes from /dd/cmds09). Later, we hope
to do an OSK shell that will recognize 6809 modules and calls the "m6809"
emulator automatically.


Kevin



From: TRAVIS COTTREAU <[e-mail]>
Subject: KMA 680x0 (good name)
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: TRAVIS COTTREAU <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Status: O

      I've been paying close attention to the news about the new OS9
computer and I think that it will probably be a real improvement over the
current Coco. One thing that I noticed no one ask is "What will this machine
look like?". I know that most of you think that it doesn't matter as long
as we get the great new computing power etc...I can understand that point
of view, but I find that whenever I see a new computer, it always looks so
typical. It would be great for the KMA to have a new unique look. If you
look at the run of the mill IBM compatible you get really bored fast. I mean
take a look. One exception to this rule is the Dell system 220. That is a
very attractive machine. I also had a chance recently to examine the new
NeXT machine from Steven Jobs (5 MIPS, m68030, 25MHz - really nice). This
is a very "sexy" computer. Just the look stuns you for a while.
      I don't want anyone to think that I would put the look of the KMA over
either the computing flexibility and power or afordability, but I would really
like something more than the monotone IBM drone. If not, well...I'll get it
anyway.

Travis Cottreau
[e-mail]



From: Frank Farm <[e-mail]>
Subject: KMA-68
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: Frank Farm <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>


    hmph.  i would have preferred "CoCoPro," but i guess that's
    what happens when you don't play where the "big boys"
    play.  i have several questions about the built-in scsi port:
    what does this mean?  how does it change the way one would add
    a hard drive to this system (as opposed to a CoCo)?  would the
    difference merely be that the host adapter is eliminated?
    (Refer to Rainbow, March 1989, "A Hard Drive for your CoCo,"
    page 46.)  if i am planning to buy a hard drive soon, is there
    any advantage in waiting for the KMA-68 to come out before i
    buy it?  or, does it really not matter and i should get my HD
    running as soon as i can on my coco 3?

also, i have searched and searched for R11-R14 in my multipak (26-3024),
but to no avail.  could someone please give roadmap directions to these
resistors?

Thanks,
Frank

P.S.  The screen-saver maze program is great, and i thank whoever ported
      it from the Sun, but it's _only_in_shades_of_gray_!!!  wouldn't it
      be a fairly simple task to make it pick a random color for each new
      maze?



From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: 386, OS9000, '86 boards
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Status: OR

From: [e-mail]

Re Jon Scheer's reply -- oh, I have every intention of plugging
in PClone *peripheral* boards -- hard drive, MIDI, clock, FAX,
you name it!  I pushed hard on CIS & Delphi to keep the PC Bus on
the KMA-68 (concensus name for the Coco-4 on CIS).
As Chris Burke has shown, that's the way to get everything
and save cash.

I meant to say that I could see no point in plugging 80*86
*processor* boards into the KMA.  In fact I doubt that the bus
architecture will support giving full bus mastery to a peripheral
card in that way.

PS: I liked Eric's comment about my having changed mail paths 14
times -- but really I've manually changed it only once or twice.
The domain mailers just keep picking alternate routes, hopefully
avoiding rutgers or cornell :^).
    --mike k



From: [e-mail]
Subject: More on "Coco-4"
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Status: O

From: [e-mail]

The rumor I've heard about the 6809 emulator on the 68000
is that originally it was believed to be about as fast as a
real Coco 3.  But then folks realized that they were reading a
benchmark run on a 24 MHz 68030, not the 8-12 MHz 68070
(essentially a 68000).  In other words, maybe 2-4 times slower
than the Real Thing.

Not good, tho the L2 window grafix calls could be done in native
68000 code, hence much faster.

Also there is some controversy about whether or not there will be
a 6809 and a GIME socket on the Coco-4/KMA.  One side says its inclusion
would slow down the memory and other things too much for the 68070,
so let's leave it off and make a clean break to OSK.
The other faction wants the 6809 on there to make a smoother transition

and pick up more sales from Oco-3 users, but ironically also wants to
charge more markup on the hardware, thus pricing it out of range for
many Coco-3'ers.

A hopeful note:  Windows on the 68K side will use the exact same
escape codes and arguments as Coco-3-L2, and BASIC09 is
essentially the same on both OS9 and OSK.  So if you have a BASIC09
source program (not just the PACKed version) that plays with overlay
windows and grafix, it may very well run as-is on the new KMA.
(KMA == "Kiss My Amiga/Atari/Apple/A**").




From avy Fri Dec 22 09:57 EST 1989
From: avy (Avygdor Moise)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 89 9:57:15 WET

Path: ists!yunexus!utzoo!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!iuvax!mailrus!uunet!mcrware!kim
From: [e-mail] (Kim Kempf)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os9
Subject: Re: OS9000/386
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Dec 89 16:23:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>¡
 <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kim Kempf)
Organization: Microware Systems Corp., Des Moines, Iowa
Lines: 14
Posted: Thu Dec 21 11:23:20 1989

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joh¡
n Vestal) writes:
>
>     There is going to be a new computer coming out within six months at will
>run OS9000 thaat is built in to ROM.  This computer will run 6809 OS-9 stuff,
>as well as the OS9000 programs.  This computer will have a 68070 and a 6809.
>You can add a 68030 as a coprocessor.  This could help you.  It should only
>be in the $500-$600 range.
>                         cocoiii (John Vestal)

This of course, should have been cross posted to talk.rumors...

--
----------------
Kim Kempf, Microware Systems Corporation    {sun,uunet}!mcrware!kim

From avy Fri Dec 22 09:58 EST 1989
Received: by gkcl.ists.ca (5.52/smail2.5/15-05-88)
    id AA26848; Fri, 22 Dec 89 09:58:02 EST
From: avy (Avygdor Moise)
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Subject: no subject (file transmission)
To: os9ug (OS-9 User Group)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 89 9:58:02 WET
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL0]
Status: OR

From: [e-mail] (Jon Howell)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os9
Subject: Re: OS9000/386
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Dec 89 00:07:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>¡
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jon Howell)
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.
Lines: 31
Posted: Thu Dec 21 19:07:22 1989

>>     There is going to be a new computer coming out within six months at will
>>run OS9000 thaat is built in to ROM.  This computer will run 6809 OS-9 stuff,
>>                         cocoiii (John Vestal)
>This of course, should have been cross posted to talk.rumors...
>Kim Kempf, Microware Systems Corporation    {sun,uunet}!mcrware!kim
Whoah!  Turn down the flame thrower, pal!  John was close.  The new computer
should run Os9 68K (not OS9000.  BTW, what do the extra zeros do for it?)
in addition to everything John mentioned.  (tho there is debate as to whether
it will have an on-board 6809 or just a simulator.  Tests are showing the
simulator might be too slow.)

Admittedly, the project is pretty speculative, but from reports that have
floated my way, there are enough people behind it who are willing to invest
that it has a good chance of coming through.

Kim, being a uW employee doesn't MAKE you an authority, much less give you
the right to shame people's postings.  Please research the subject a bit
more before you condemn others' postings as rumor.  Because uW isn't selling
it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  I know uW doesn't support low-end users,
but are you going so far as trying to dismiss us?  A stain on the ol' image,
hmm?

Others:  sorry for the re-flame, but I felt John's message deserved no such
slamming.

    --Jon
--
Jon Howell  [e-mail]  (503) MAK-SEMA      : SciFi, drugs, and
  _   _ _   _      ___  _    _ _ | "Ah, I see that    : reality are just escape
 /_  /|/|  /| |  |  |  /| |  |/  |  now..." - the     : routes for those who
 _/ / | | /-| |_ |_ | /-| |_ |\_ | Mouse, _LadyHawke_ : can't handle C++.





From: Joseph Cheek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:      Re:  Latest on Coco-4
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: Joseph Cheek <[e-mail]>

Well, it's good to be back on the list 8-)

    So, there's a CoCo 4/Pro/Plus/KMA perhaps coming out?  REALLY?
Please give me some info!  If this is a worn out topic, please send
replies to me personally ([e-mail]), if not then
publicly.  Please!

    Also, I vote for CoCoPro.




From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Coco 4 and Magnavox '515
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Status: OR

From: [e-mail]

The official word is yes, the CocoPro/KMA will work fine with
the Maggie in all modes.  THis is because the 400 vertical lines
are achieved by interlacing odd frames, just like regular TV,
and we all know how great a VCR looks on a Maggie, right?

Interlacing is used on the AMigas as well, unlike the Atari ST
monochrome and Macs which use a higher horiz sweep rate and lower
vertical rate to get all the lines in each frame.
Consequently you get some flicker, but only highly noticeable on
certain kinds of pictures, and not visible in monochrome (two-color)
displays.

Interlacing is done by inserting extra sync pulses on the odd vertical
retraces to delay the sweep by half a line.  Hopefully the CM8's
circuits well be fooled as well as the 515's or a TV's.



From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: 386, OS9000, '86 boards
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Status: OR

From: [e-mail]

Re Jon Scheer's reply -- oh, I have every intention of plugging
in PClone *peripheral* boards -- hard drive, MIDI, clock, FAX,
you name it!  I pushed hard on CIS & Delphi to keep the PC Bus on
the KMA-68 (concensus name for the Coco-4 on CIS).
As Chris Burke has shown, that's the way to get everything
and save cash.

I meant to say that I could see no point in plugging 80*86
*processor* boards into the KMA.  In fact I doubt that the bus
architecture will support giving full bus mastery to a peripheral
card in that way.

PS: I liked Eric's comment about my having changed mail paths 14
times -- but really I've manually changed it only once or twice.
The domain mailers just keep picking alternate routes, hopefully
avoiding rutgers or cornell :^).
    --mike k


From: Frank Farm <[e-mail]>
Subject: KMA-68's looks and motd
Sender: COCO - Tandy Color Computer List <COCO@PUCC>
To: Multiple recipients of list COCO <COCO@PUCC>
Reply-To: Frank Farm <[e-mail]>

>From what's been said, I'm assuming the thing will look like whatever you want
it to.  It's designed to fit into an IBM case, but no one is forcing you to put
your board in one.  So though it will _look_ like an IBM, it certainly won't
_perform_ like one.  :-)  If you really want it to look different, you can
always find some spray paint (or whatever), but be sure that what you change
to make it look nicer doesn't have a harmful effect on the computer.  (Will
a layer of paint increase the inside temperature???)

MOTD is, I believe, the newsletter of the OS-9 User's Group.  The origin is
probably from "message of the day," which (on our machines here) is a
message that all users see when they log on.

-- Frank