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Date: Tuesday, 19 November 1991 09:51-GMT From: starke@rhrk.uni-kl.de (Gerolf Starke [MW]) Re: Xwindows, all answers !! Dear newsgroup readers! Thanks to all who answered my query about an Xwindows terminal emulation for PC/AT clones. First I have to thank David Orman who gave me a lot of information he received about the same subject. I also have to thank Colin Frank, Lyle Holman and Bob Hardy for the information. In the following there's a summary of all the answers I received. All names of persons (authors) are droped. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The main players seem to be Hummingbird communications HCL-eXceed (DOS and MS windows), Unipalm X11/AT (windows), Locus computing (PC-Xsight), Spectragraphics/GSS PC-Xview (DOS) and Visionware Xvision (windows). Also "coming real soon" is Quarterdecks Desqview/X. This promises to be a really exciting product, particularly as it will provide portability of X based applications to the PC. While many developers will appreciate the portability and using a non-proprietary system rather than MS-Windows, the phenomenal success of MS Windows (at least according to the computer press) will have no doubt cut deeply into their potential market. No doubt this has a great bearing on the extravagent advertising Quarterdeck indulged in late last year (a bid for vapourware of the century???). Hopefully the portability to Unix will encourage developers to use Desqview/X. Time only will tell. Returning to the products available now, I was specifically asking for comparisons of the various products available. The most informative reply I got was from Steve Cohen (see below), who has tried many of these products. His strong recommendation is for HCL-eXceed, using the FTP software PC/TCP transport and VGA graphics. Esmond Pitt recommended Xvision in favour of PC-Xview. Stephen Guerke noted that there is a review of PC based X servers in the current PC Magazine - unfortunately I haven't tracked down a copy of this yet as we seem to be a few months behind! Digital Review (July 16, 1990) compared HCL-eXceed with PC-Xsight and found the former much preferable. On the basis of these comments HCL-eXceed seems to be the unanimous choice for a PC based X server, at least as far as performance is concerned. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- A) Vendor List AGE (619-565-7373) offers the XoftWare TIGA. Bell Technologies (Fremont, CA: 415-659-9097) PC DECWindows a.k.a. the PC DECWindows Display Facility is an MS-DOS application that turns your PC into an X11R3 terminal. It supports DECnet. Available from DEC. [Dennis Giokas (giokas@mosaic.enet.dec.com), 3/90] HP (800-752-0900) has the "HP Accelerated X Window Display Server" (HP AXDS/PC; HP part D2300B) which will run on any AT-class DOS machine with 640KB, MSDOS 3.1 or higher, and the HP Intelligent Graphics Controller 10 card, to which the X11R3-based server is downloaded (avoiding performance-limitations from PC RAM-size and processor speed). [from John Kempff (kempff@hppad.hp.com), 3/90] Hummingbird Communications (Canada 416-470-1203) produces the HCL-eXceed and HCL-eXceed Plus for EGA, VGA, and VGA+ controllers. ** Also HCL-eXceed/W for windows. Information Network Solutions also offers a product called HCL-eXceed for the *86. The fax is 02-4122079 inside Australia, 612-4122079 from overseas. Integrated Inference Machines (714-978-6201 or -6776) is shipping X11/AT, an X server that runs under MS-windows. The server converts an IBM-AT into an X terminal which can simultaneously run MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows applications. ** Now marketed by Unipalm Limited (England 954-211797, Fax 954-211244). Intelligent Decisions, Inc. (Sunnyvale, CA: 408-734-3730) IBM is rumored to offer a product; part #5709-029. Locus Computing (800-955-6287; CA: 213-670-6500; UK: +44 296 89911) has a server called PC-Xsight which also appears in Acer's X terminal. Metrolink Inc. (+1-305-566-9586, sales@metrolink.com; in Europe contact ADNT, (33 1) 3956 5333) ships an implementation of X11R4 for several 386 systems. Pericom's TeemTalk-X for IBM clones allows toggling between X and DOS. Information: +44 (0908) 560022. [5/90] DESQview/X from Quarterdeck (213-392-9851; 213-399-3802 FAX) incorporates X into the DESQview multi-tasking DOS environment. SpectraGraphics/GSS (503-641-2200) makes PC-Xview, an MSDOS-based X server which interfaces with PC/TCP Plus networking software from FTP Software and Excelan's LAN WorkPlace for DOS. The server works with (a) 286, 386, 486 (b) EGA, VGA, DGIS displays. (c) DOS 3.2 and above (d) Microsoft, Logitech, Mouse Systems Mice (e) 640k memory up to 16 MB memory [the PC-Xview/16 is available for PCs with extended memory]. VisionWare's XVision is a Microsoft Windows-based X server which allows an IBM-compatible PC or PS/2 to display X clients running on a networked computer at the same time as local DOS programs. VisionWare is at 612-377-3627 or vision@vware.mn.org (UK: +44 532 788858 and vware@vision.uucp). Xnth is an implementation of X11 R4 which runs on AT-bus PCs running DOS 3.3 or higher. It currently supports 1280X1024 or 1024X768 resolution monitors at 256 colors (out of 16M) with hardware accelleration for graphics and text operations. It currently utilizes a TCP/IP byte stream over Ethernet. Information: Jerry Norman, Nth Graphics, Ltd., 1-800-624-7552. * StarNet Communications Corp 408-739-0881 Fax 408-739-0936 * makes an X server that runs on MS-DOS. MicroX has TCP/IP built * in, and will work with any ethernet card that has a driver * that conforms to the PC/TCP Packet Driver Specification -- * drivers for the most common card and in 256-color on most * super VGA cards. B) More detailed info on some vendors: I. Server running under MS (Microsoft) Windows 1) Integrated Inference Machines (714-978-6201 or -6776) Contact : John Walsh X Server version : X11R3 (with R4 font support) -- No plan for R4 yet Network SW : supports PC-NFS DOS version : 3.0 Memory Requirement: 2 MB Graphic cards : EGA, VGA, 8514 AT : 286, 386, 486 PS/2 : Model 80 with 8514 Simultaneously run X, MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows applications: Yes Cut & Paste between windows (includes X emulation window) : Yes Price: $495 (1-9 units) $465 (10-24 units) $395 (10-24 units with document sharing -- 1 doc/5 units) $395 (25-95 units) $325 (25-95 units with document sharing -- 1 doc/5 units) Available: Yes * Now marketed by Unipalm. Single unit price 450 pounds. Requires a TCP/IP carrier. PC/TCP kernel (serves X windows only) available for 160 pounds. 2) SpectraGraphics/GSS (503-641-2200) Contact : Mike Cox Product Name : PC-Xvision X Server version : X11R3 -- R4 is available in the summer Network SW : supports PC-NFS DOS version : 3.2 Memory Requirement: 3 MB (2MB for M/S Windows) Graphic card : EGA, VGA, DGIS AT (PS/2) : 286, 386, 486 Simultaneously run X, MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows applications: Yes Cut & Paste between windows (includes X emulation window) : Yes Price: $449 (1 unit) $359.2 (20-49 units -- 20% discount) $336.75 (50+ units -- 25% discount) (NOTE: The cost for the upgrade to X11R4 server is $150. It is available in the summer.) Available: Yes **** 3) Hummingbird Communications Ltd (416) 470-1203 Fax (416) 470-1207 Contact : Jan Adamek Product Name : HCL-eXceed/W X Server version : X11R4 Network SW : requires TCP/IP carrier DOS version : > 3.0, MS Windows 3.0 Memory Requirement: 2MB Graphic card : Supported by MS windows AT (PS/2) : 286, 386, 486 Simultaneously run X, MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows applications: Yes Cut & Paste between windows (includes X emulation window) : Yes Price: US $595 (1 unit) US $536 (2-4 units) US $476 (5-9 units) US $417 (10+ units) Available: Yes **** II. Native Server (Not running under Microsoft Windows) 1) Locus Computing (800-955-6287; CA: 213-670-6500) Contact : Dada Halili (213-337-5251) Product Name : PC-Xsight X Server version : X11R3 & X11R4 Network SW : supports PC-NFS 3.1+ DOS version : 3.1+ Memory Requirement: 2 MB upto 16MB extended memory Graphic card : EGA, VGA, 8514A AT : 286, 386, 486 PS/2 : Model 70, 80 Swicthing between DOS and X Server: Yes Price: $495 (with Locus TCP/IP) $425 (without Locus TCP/IP) ~$382.5 (12-19 unit, 10% discount) ~$361.25 (20+ unit, 15% discount) Available: Yes (NOTE: Microsoft Windows support in 5-6 months.) 2) SpectraGraphics/GSS (503-641-2200) Contact : Mike Cox Product Name : PC-Xview X Server version : X11R3 -- R4 is available in the summer Network SW : supports PC-NFS DOS version : 2.1.2 Memory Requirement: 640KB upto 16MB extended memory Graphic card : EGA, VGA, DGIS AT (PS/2) : 286, 386, 486 Swicthing between DOS and X Server: Yes Price: $445 (1 unit) ~$356 (20-49 units -- 20% discount) ~$333.75 (50+ units -- 25% discount) (NOTE: The cost for the upgrade to X11R4 server is $150. It is available in the summer.) Available: Yes **** 3) Hummingbird Communications Ltd (416) 470-1203 Fax (416) 470-1207 Contact : Jan Adamek Product Name : HCL-eXceed/Plus X Server version : X11R4 Network SW : requires TCP/IP carrier DOS version : > 3.0 Memory Requirement: 1.64MB Graphic card : EGA, VGA, many Super VGA AT (PS/2) : 286, 386, 486 Simultaneously run X, MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows applications: Yes Cut & Paste between windows (includes X emulation window) : Yes Price: US $595 (1 unit) US $536 (2-4 units) US $476 (5-9 units) US $417 (10+ units) Available: Yes **** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know if you get PC MAGAZINE, but the current issue has a rather lengthy discussion of just this issue. It mentions and reviews several of the products that you mentioned in your list. Unfortunatly I don't have the magazine here with me or I would try to summarize it for you. On product (not yet available....but "real soon now") that looks like a winner is DESQviewX by Quaterdeck. Apparantly this product (when available) will solve (I'll belive it when I see it)a lot of the complaints about the other products...the major one being that they tend to run slowly on a PC.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I have been doing studies and benchmarks on the various X-SERVER products that are available for PC's. After much research the three products from Hummingbird, are by far the fastest, easiest to use, and real implementations of X11 R4. Hummingbirds EXCEED/W for WINDOWs 3.0 is almost twice as fast as X-VISION and almost an order of magnitude faster than X11-AT. X-VISION is very difficult to install and if your computer cannot do an rsh, is a pain to start up. EXCEED/w gives good performance on a 386sx based system. It is much better to use PC/TCP from FTP software than the other transports. For non Windows 3.0 systems use EXCEED/P from Hummingbird. It is an R4 server and takes advantage of extended memory. It is much faster than any of the other X-SERVERS, and will run with PC-NFS, ftp's software or EXCELLAN. the Locus PC-XSIGHT product is not particularly easy to install, has a lot of bugs, and is slow. I have used the Hummingbird products on 286s, 386sx, 386s and a 486. It is almost twice as fast with a VGA card instead of an EGA card. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > PC-Xview Graphic Software Systems > > * Xvision Visionware I have used both of these and would recommend the latter over the former, if you can live with the different environment, i.e. windows, no xdm/mwm on the host (good!). Xview seemed slow and clunky to me. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Received you letter via NASA/Ames. I would like to introduce you to MicroX. StarNet Communications Corp 408-739-0881 Fax 408-739-0936 makes an X server that runs on MS-DOS. MicroX has TCP/IP built in, and will work with any ethernet card that has a driver that conforms to the PC/TCP Packet Driver Specification -- drivers for the most common card and in 256-color on most super VGA cards. Other information follows to the address that is at the bottom of your letter. [Contact Larry Wible <larry@starnet.com>] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I recently ran into a new one which runs under MS Windows (286/386 only). Implied is that the X Windows will run under any display configuration which has an MS Windows device driver. Product: X11/AT Company: Integrated Inference Machines 1468 E. Katella Ave. Anaheim, CA 92805 (714) 978-6776 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Transparent Technology has a product called PC-Xsight which is apparently a full implementation of X 11.3 under MS-DOS, using TCP/IP over an Ethernet connection to talk to the server. They advertise in Unix Review, among other places. Total cost of their software is around $500, with another $700 buying you a Western Digital Ethernet card, a Paradise VGA card, and a Logitech mouse, which they selected and vend because of proven value & compatibility with PC-Xsight. I don't have their address handy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Graphic Software Systems (GSS) offers PC-Xview, an X Window server on a PC. PC-Xview interfaces with PC/TCP Plus networking software from FTP Software and Excelan's LAN WorkPlace for DOS. GSS is a distributor for the PC/TCP product and can offer you one stop shopping for all of your PC X Server needs. PC-Xview works with: a) 286, 386, 486 b) EGA, VGA, DGIS displays. DGIS displays are available from Compaq, Dell, HP, NEC, Imagraph, Control Systems, and others c) DOS 3.2 and above d) Microsoft, Logitech, Mouse Systems Mice e) 640k memory up to 16 MB memory f) Network cards from 3Com, WD, Interlan, Intel, Proteon, UB, Nat'l Semi, Tiara, and Excelan. Also SLIP. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ VisionWare XVISION - The X Connection for Microsoft Windows XVision is a Microsoft Windows based X server which allows an IBM-compatible PC or PS/2 to display X clients running on a networked computer, at the same time as local DOS programs. The main features are: o A PC becomes an X Window System graphics terminal. o Microsoft Windows based X server. o X clients and DOS applications appear on the same screen. o Cut and paste between X clients and DOS applications using the Windows Clipboard. o Full support for X11 protocols. o Use a standard X Window manager, or let Microsoft Windows manage X clients. o Independent of specific PC graphics display system. X FOR WINDOWS XVision is a Microsoft Windows application, which means that you can run X Window System clients alongside DOS programs on a PC workstation. This provides a common user interface for DOS and X applications, and allows cut and paste operations to transfer information between them. Because the server runs under Microsoft Windows it can use any graphics display screen for which a Windows driver is available. This includes EGA and VGA, as well as large high resolution monitors. XVISION SERVER The XVision server is based on the sample server distributed by the X Consortium. It runs on a PC under Microsoft Windows and supports the standard X protocol between clients and the server over TCP/IP network links. This is the most efficient method of implementation since the X protocol is optimised to reduce the overheads involved in passing graphics requests to and receiving events from a workstation. XVision does not require any special software to be installed on a host system and it can accept requests from X clients running anywhere on the network. The interface between XVision and the PC network software is implemented as a DOS TSR program, which provides a flexible method of supporting different networks. XVision allows cut and paste operations between X clients to be carried out in the normal way using the X selection mechanism. It also enables the data associated with a text selection to be mirrored on the Windows Clipboard. This enables data to be copied between X clients and DOS applications. The server is capable of running a few simple clients on a PC with 640 kbytes of memory. It implements virtual memory to allow a greater number of clients and more complex clients to be run. The virtual memory mechanism will make use of expanded memory if it is available, and if there is insufficient expanded memory it will use the hard disk. Clients can be initiated from the PC, or may be started anywhere on the network. For a UNIX host, the X Display Manager can be set up to allow a user to log in and execute the first X client. Otherwise, TELNET or another terminal emulator facility can be used to initiate the X session. WINDOW MANAGEMENT There are two different ways of using XVision. The first way is for the whole X world to occupy one Microsoft Window, and all X clients appear within this window. The Microsoft Window may be positioned on the screen in relation to other DOS windows or iconised in the normal Windows manner. To manage individual X client windows within the single Microsoft Window, a standard X window manager such as UWM must be used. When used in this single window display mode you can specify that the "virtual display" should be larger than the size of the PC screen, and Microsoft Windows scroll bars can then be used to alter the visible area. The second way to use XVision is for each X client to run within its own Microsoft Window, and here individual X client window management may be achieved by using the standard Microsoft Windows management facilities. This method provides X applications with a Presentation Manager look and feel to their user interface. When a client opens a window it supplies "hints" such as size, title and icon which are mapped to equivalent features of a Microsoft Window. X FONTS SUPPLIED Compiled versions of the standard X fonts are distributed with XVision, and you have the option to install all of them or just a minimum set. A Microsoft Windows font file is associated with each X font file, and contains the character bitmaps. All the other properties of the X font remain in the X font file and many are used by the server when drawing text. XVISION AND VISIONWARE XVision is one of a range of VisionWare workstation integration products and services. Also available is PC-Connect, which allows IBM-compatible PC or PS/2 computers to act as multi-windowed workstations connected to one or more UNIX host systems without the need for the X Windows system. SQL-Connect enables workstation users to access information held in remote SQL databases. The VisionWare strategy is to combine PCs and multi-user systems into a unified operating environment, so that maximum benefits can be obtained from information processing technology. SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS An IBM-compatible PC/AT or PS/2 computer with at least an 80286 processor. At least 640kbytes of memory. XVision will also use LIM/EMS 3.2 or 4.0 expanded memory if available. A hard disk. Either a 1.2Mbyte 5 1/4" disk drive, or a 1.44Mbyte 3 1/2" drive. Windows compatible graphics adapter and display. A mouse is strongly recommended. A three-button mouse is ideal, but a two-button mouse can be used together with the emulation facilities built into XVision. A local area network card and networking software. MS-DOS or PC-DOS version 3.0 or later. A run-time version of Microsoft Windows may be included with XVision (ask your supplier or call VisionWare). If you want to use full Windows then you need Windows/286 or Windows/386 version 2.0 or later. XVISION PACKAGES There are two XVision packages, one containing 5 1/4" disks (1.2 Mbyte) and the other containing 3 1/2" disks (1.44Mbyte). Choose the appropriate package for your disk drive. AVAILABILITY XVision is supplied with network communications interface programs for various TCP/IP networking software. These include Locus TCP/IP for DOS, FTP PC/TCP and Excelan LAN WorkPlace. More networks are being added continually, and you contact your supplier or VisionWare for exact details of availability. (C) VisionWare Limited, 1989. All Rights Reserved. The names of companies referred to herein, their corporate logos, the names of their hardware and software may be tradenames, trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective owners. The policy of VisionWare Limited is to develop and enhance its products and services and it therefore reserves the right to alter without notice the specification and/or design thereof. VisionWare Limited, The Leeds Business Park, Morley, Leeds LS27 0JG, UK Tel +44-532-522020. Fax +44-532-526614. Telex 556283. Email: vware@vison.uucp VisionWare, PO Box 3991, Minneapolis, MN 55405, USA Tel +1-612-377-3627 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ For those interested in using X Windows Version 11 Release 3 on an IBM-AT (80286 or 80386) or compatible, Integrated Inference Machines is shipping a high performance X11 server called X11/AT which runs under MS-DOS using Microsoft Windows for $395. The server converts an IBM-AT into an X Windows terminal which can simultaneosuly run MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows applications. FTP and TELNET are also supplied. X11/AT requires a system with 2Meg of extended memory. Because X11/AT runs under Microsoft Windows, a large variety of monochrome and color displays are supported including EGA, VGA, and special high resolution displays. For more information, contact: Charles Baecker Integrated Inference Machines 1468 E. Katella Avenue Anahiem, California 92805 Phone (714)978-6201 FAX (714)939-0746 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can run X on PC's without X cards. There is X/Sight from Locus Computing, XVision from VisionWare Ltd., and XView from GSS, Inc. Of these products, so far I have found that XView is actually the fastest in terms of performance, and was one of the easiest to install. They all have dependencies upon some third party vendor's TCP/IP software to handle the X protocol; the best of which is from FTP Software. None of these packages were easy to install on the PC; in fact Locus' product was by far the most difficult. It took quite a bit of hacking to brute force X/Sight into working because the documentation was poorly organized and lacked adequate "real" examples. XVision had its problems too, but they were not related to XVision, rather they were MS Windows problems because of Windows 3.0 was still a beta release. The XVision installation process was the easiest because it has to conform to the standard MS Windows installation guidelines which makes it easy for novices. It also needed some "persuasion" before being able to work correctly, but once it did it worked as advertised, although somewhat slow. XView was easy to install, their documentation is adequate but could use some minor improvement. It is the fastest of the three packages even though I am told that I am using the slowest of the Ethernet boards. I personally like XView the best, although novice PC users will probably like XVision better because of the familiar MS Windows interface. XView, like X/Sight allows you to hot key between your X session and local DOS. I can't tell you much more than this, because I have written evauations for articles to be published in an upcoming issue of UnixWorld, about these three fine products. Take your pick, any of them are OK, but I feel that speed, reliability, and ease of installation are very important so I personally would recommend XView (if you are not a PC novice) or XVision if you are a MS Windows junkie like myself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have been using XVision from VisionWare, Ltd., on a 286, using FTP's PC/TCP communications software via a 3COM 3C503 Ethernet board. For one that does not need to work "heavily" within the X environment, I find it an excellent solution. It requires Microsoft Windows (I am using 3.0). That means that I have my normal PC windows and I have "X" windows. Actually, XVision works in either "multi-window" or "single-window" mode. The "multi" means that each X client has its own Microsoft window and that Microsoft Windows handles much of the windowing -- more efficient that way. The "single" approach means there is one X window, inside of which you have as many X clients as you wish (see caveat later). I actually prefer working this way, as it is closer to the real X feel. Nonetheless, you should realize that the more efficient way is "multi" windowing. Since the PC is color, the X, naturally, provides color. With one exception, I have not had any problem with the color. It has only been an asset. The one exception is FrameMaker -- just yesterday I tried for the first time to use it and it complained that the colors weren't setup correctly. I haven't tried to resolve this yet, but I assume it will be no problem. So far as running on a 286, it is slow in setting up the environment. It takes about 60 sections before I see my first X window. On a 386, I assume it would be much faster. Until I get all my windows set up just the way I like takes about 1 1/2 minutes more. Once set up, I have two mailbox windows, one to a Sun workstation and one to a mainframe, I have a "manual browser" from another mainframe, I have a "workload" figure from a Sun, and I have four working windows, two on Suns and two on mainframes, these last two using "tn3270" to give me true 3270 compatibility. And that works nicely, too. Again, but for setup, I think the response is fine. I have good control of moving windows around, resizing them, iconizing them, opening them up, etc. By the way, my screen is a MultiSync 3D, with a video adapter from Video Seven, 512K video RAM. This provides 1024x768 resolution. It means I can devote one half of my screen to PC and one half to X, and the X side is wide enough to give me a full 80x24 character screen. The size of the lettering is small, but I can live with it. I think a better solution, however, would be to have a 16" or even 19" monitor. I'm looking into that now. The only big problem that I have is that XVision has a limit, unfortunately, of only ten X clients. For a serious user, that is a very bad limitation. Additionally, a bug in the system causes it to die a most unglorious death when you try to create the eleventh client. As my mother would say, "You shouldn't know from such things." PC/TCP from FTP, however, allows you to set a limit on the number of TCP/IP connections, and this precludes my ever asking for the eleventh client. Visionware is aware of the bug and is coming out with a correction. They also recognize that ten clients is a very low number. They aren't saying when they'll have a version allowing more than ten. That's about it. In summary, it's a very good solution for one who has strong ties to the PC world, but needs a "window" (no pun intended) to the X world. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I got the following info from David Solan, sales rep of the Wollongong Group (415) 962-7172. They produce a TCP/IP package for windows plus a lot more He sent me some info about their product that included vendors that sell X servers for Windows3.0. These include: Product: Windows 3.0 based X11R4 server ------------------------------------------------------- Company: Hummingbird Communications Phone: (416) 470-1203 Company: Integrated Inference Machines Phone: (714) 939-0746 Company: VisionWare Phone: (201) 985-8000 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have seen three programs that allow your PC to act as an X terminal over the ethernet. Xvision Spectragraphics 1-800-800-9599 HCL-eXceed/W Hummingbird Communications Inc. 416-470-1203 Xsight AGE Logic Inc. 619-455-8600 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- DESQview-X should be released soon. It claims to do (X) windows. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to all again, Gerolf Starke -- Gerolf Starke Tel: +49/631/205-2419 Institute of Applied and Technical Mechanics e-mail: starke@rhrk.uni-kl.de University of Kaiserslautern, 6750 compuserve: 100010,3451