CICA 1993 August/CICA.cdr/unzipped/nt/week17/week17.msg

Text File | 1992-10-26 | 457.5 KB | 13,770 lines

#: 12657 S1/Non-tech service
    17-Oct-92  07:08:51
Sb: WINNT test guide
Fm: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721
To: ALL

Hi there,

I would like to have some information on how to get WIN NT running.
I have bought WINNT SDK from MS Germany.

When requesting support from MS Germany they told me they were unable to do
any technical (say non-marketing) support but I should go directly through
Compuserve MSEUROBETA.

So I connected to Compuserve MSEUROBETA.
Sending mail to the indicated address proved impossible as the 75300,17 didn't
accept any (more) mail. Seems as if it wasn't emptied for some time.

So I moved over to the MS WIN32 SDK forum.
Well, they told me I should better move to WINNT as I primarily wanted to
get NT running first before starting to port software.

Posting a message to Azzfar Moazzam in the network forum on 10/12 just proved
that he was downloading messages - but there was no reply.

So I thought a better idea might be to download bug reports to lib 3.
I completed bug reports and started CIM. Oops, no way to upload through CIM!

Library section 3 refers to WINNT test guide for more information on upload.
- My SDK didn't come with any such information.

What should I do now?

Hans-Peter



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12668 S1/Non-tech service
    17-Oct-92  10:04:14
Sb: #12657-WINNT test guide
Fm: Cohagan 74375,313
To: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721

Hans-Peter
  I think you've found the right place for help.  My experience has been that
MS generally takes 24-48 hrs to respond to posts here, but they (almost)
always do respond and are very helpful.  I don't know how long ago you posted,
but you might need to just give it a bit more time.

  I generally post to SYSOP rather than ALL when I have a specific question to
MS.  ALL has the advantage that you're more likely to get a response from
another user who has already solved the same problem.  SYSOP has the advantage
that you know if/when it's been read by MS because an (X) appears to the right
of SYSOP in the TO: line.

  Although I'm not a CIM user I'm sure you can upload using CIM.  It may be
time to RTFM!  If you have specific questions and post them here perhaps
others will join in and help you get started.

Good luck,
 Bill

#: 12785 S1/Non-tech service
    19-Oct-92  05:52:23
Sb: Future Domain TMC1680
Fm: George  Wilk 100113,2621
To: Steve Fait 70444,12

I have a problem booting up NT. I get system error 0x000069.
Phase 1 initialisation failure.
I have a TMC 1680 controller by Future Domain.
Is there a driver for this or a workaround available yet.
If there is a driver how do I install it?

Thanks...George Wilk

#: 12853 S1/Non-tech service
    19-Oct-92  13:53:11
Sb: #12785-Future Domain TMC1680
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: George  Wilk 100113,2621

Hi George,

 >I have a problem booting up NT. I get system error 0x000069.
 >Phase 1 initialisation failure.

This error is generally caused by an unsupported disk controller. The
FD-TMC1680 was not supported in the July release.

 >I have a TMC 1680 controller by Future Domain.
 >Is there a driver for this or a workaround available yet.
 >If there is a driver how do I install it?

There is an updated driver available in Library 2 as FD1800.ZIP. Instructions
for installation are in the FDOMAIN.TXT file which is in the .ZIP.

Please post any future Setup problems in section 3 as that is where we normall
handle these and it will help us keep the forum organized. Thanks!

  Steve

#: 12908 S1/Non-tech service
    19-Oct-92  20:32:59
Sb: Utility
Fm: Steve Liberty 71450,2341
To: sysop (X)

There is a utility in the library that displays postscript files on screen
without the formatting. It doesn't say, but I guess it is an NT program since
it bombed under Windows. Is there such a utility that will run under Win 3.1?
Since I haven't installed NT yet, that is the environment I need to view the
files in. Steve

#: 13035 S1/Non-tech service
    20-Oct-92  17:44:13
Sb: #12908-Utility
Fm: Jeff Lundblad 73537,1203
To: Steve Liberty 71450,2341 (X)

Steve,

I uploaded just such a utility on Sunday. It has yet to be posted. Watch for
LI13t5.zip. It's a "beta" release where I tacked a half decent
July-NT-release-postscript-file text interpreter on to a full featured ASCII
viewer.

I was able to install NT, but then my big disk drive died, so I'm still Win16
bound. Thus, the program is a Win 3.1 app.

Jeff.




There is 1 Reply.

#: 13053 S1/Non-tech service
    20-Oct-92  21:13:27
Sb: #13035-Utility
Fm: Steve Liberty 71450,2341
To: Jeff Lundblad 73537,1203

Jeff, Thanks for the reply. I will be looking for it! Steve

#: 12683 S1/Non-tech service
    17-Oct-92  14:21:28
Sb: #12460-WFW anybody?
Fm: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732
To: wiley 70473,1351 (X)

Hi Stu,

Can you comment on the following: I have no problem connecting my NT box to
various Windows for Workgroup machines, making connections in both directions
is easy. This is not surprising given the built-in WfW functionality in NT.
(control panel/networks etc).

However will the extra twiddly applets found in WfW make it into NT? eg, the
chat facility, msmail 3 bits etc?

Jon

#: 12866 S1/Non-tech service
    19-Oct-92  15:25:38
Sb: #12683-WFW anybody?
Fm: wiley 70473,1351
To: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732 (X)

Jon, You know I can't comment on the unreleased product.  That would be like
MGM giving you the end of the movie first, just not possible.  Actually I'm
fairly confident that the Windows functionality will be produced in 32 bit, I
haven't heard anything in particular about the applets themselves.  It can't
be that big of a deal to port them over, however, you must know they are not
as high priority as the OS right now.  I guess I'll wait along side you for
this one.
 Stu Wiley
 Developer Service Team

#: 13074 S1/Non-tech service
    21-Oct-92  03:39:16
Sb: #12866-WFW anybody?
Fm: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732
To: wiley 70473,1351 (X)

Hmmm. I certainly don't want you to "open mouth and insert foot" <grin>, but
although I'm not too worried about the applets per se, there is the netdde
functionality that is currently missing from NT.

I know we've got the rpc stuff, but that's a different thing altogether.
Hopefully the netdde bits will make it into the beta release. :-)

Ooops, just found a comment from Bruce Ramsey over in MSWin32/S12 saying that
"NetDDE is not in the current builds of Windows NT: it may be another 2 months
before it will be in the builds"

Guess that means beta 2. Thanks.

Jon

#: 13021 S1/Non-tech service
    20-Oct-92  15:27:13
Sb: ProCOMM test
Fm: Todd Fulks (Microsoft) 71075,651
To: Steve Fai

This is a test in Windows NT - using PROCOMM for Windows

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13076 S1/Non-tech service
    21-Oct-92  03:49:03
Sb: #13021-ProCOMM test
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Todd Fulks (Microsoft) 71075,651

Todd,

<<This is a test in Windows NT - using PROCOMM for Windows>>

Well I'm GLAD to see this. PW is my main means of accessing CIS. <G> I do hope
this is the Windows 3.1 version, since as fas as I know there is no NT version
of PW available, yet.

Art

#: 13156 S1/Non-tech service
    21-Oct-92  14:54:14
Sb: WIN NT October Release
Fm: Anil K. Sodhy 70143,365
To: sysop (X)

I was supposed to have received a mailing confirming my address so that the
October release can be mailed to me.  I have not yet received that mailing.  I
was, however, shipped the July release recently.  Can I confirm my address to
you, in a private communication, so that I receive the October release on time.
Please do not ask me to telephone Customer Service as I do not have the time to
waste on the telephone waiting for someone to talk with me; the last time I
called, I waited 90 minutes and still did not get anyone to talk with me.

#: 13164 S1/Non-tech service
    21-Oct-92  17:03:23
Sb: Fortran & VB compilers
Fm: Lina Au 76666,46
To: sysop (X)

Could you tell me what time frame we could expect fortran compilers and
VisualBasic compilers for NT?  Thanks!

#: 13239 S1/Non-tech service
    22-Oct-92  06:55:56
Sb: Windows development
Fm: Alex Smariga / POC-IT 75766,1150
To: All

I'm looking for a Windows developer who has assisted in the conversion of a
Procedural (COBOL) app to en event driven app(Windows C++).
We are in the mid stages of developing our prototype app and need someone to
critique the design and review the coding/standards employyed so far.
I need the initial discussions to occur the week of November 2 in Los Angeles.
If you have developed a Windows app in C and would like to see a terrific app
be created, please call:

Alex Smariga
310-393-4552 (voice)
310-451-2888 (fax)
or E-Mail me.

#: 12583 S1/Non-tech service
    16-Oct-92  12:29:47
Sb: #12507-Intel EtherExpress
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: Alex Bronstein 75070,2452

Hi Alex,

From what I have seen so far, Flexboot is installed right near the end of the
graphics mode part of the install, and I am not sure if you could change it so
it only installs that portion of Windows NT.

You might try the BOOTSE.ZIP program in Library 4 to restore the boot sector,
but we cannot endorse or recommend that method of reinstallation. Of course,
if it works for you, great, if not, you already have a tape backup of your
drive so in your case you wouldn't lose anything <g>.

If I run across a better way than reinstalling the entire system or trying
that program, I'll try to pass it on.

 Thanks,

  Steve

#: 13251 S1/Non-tech service
    22-Oct-92  08:52:21
Sb: Intel EtherExpress
Fm: Ken DeJager 76067,1126
To: sysop (X)

I seem to have missed a thread concerning support for the Intel EtherExpress.
I don't see it supported in the October hardware list. We have a room full of
these fast, low-cost cards and I already sent in a HWFEED.TXT.

Is there any good news about this?  Some vendor's Ethernet hardware is so
similar that other drivers work (unsupported, of course).  Any hope?

#: 13132 S1/Non-tech service
    21-Oct-92  11:08:19
Sb: Beta vs. Prerelease SDK?
Fm: Wim Bonner 72561,3135
To: Microsoft

I've been wanting to know if I should apply for the beta program. I'm already
developing NT using my SDK, so I want to know if the beta program will get
updates to the operating system and drivers any more frequently than the SDK
prerelease program?

Wim

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13146 S1/Non-tech service
    21-Oct-92  12:52:39
Sb: #13132-Beta vs. Prerelease SDK?
Fm: Dwight Matheny (MS) 70750,2340
To: Wim Bonner 72561,3135

No need to apply for the beta program. The SDK will provide everything you
need.

-Dwight (MS)




There is 1 Reply.

#: 13152 S1/Non-tech service
    21-Oct-92  14:27:43
Sb: #13146-Beta vs. Prerelease SDK?
Fm: Wade Mintz 72110,520
To: Dwight Matheny (MS) 70750,2340 (X)

I've received my WIN32 SDK for WIN_NT. When I logged on here, there was a
message stating that I needed to 'register' in order to receive the updated
CDROMS.

I didn't receive any registration for in the package... Does that mean I'm
registered?

Wade

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13165 S1/Non-tech service
    21-Oct-92  17:08:06
Sb: #13152-Beta vs. Prerelease SDK?
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: Wade Mintz 72110,520

Hi Wade,

 >I didn't receive any registration for in the package... Does that mean
 >I'm registered?

When you called and ordered over the phone, you were registered automatically
and should receive all the updates.

Talk to you later,

   Steve

#: 13284 S1/Non-tech service
    22-Oct-92  12:51:38
Sb: #13165-Beta vs. Prerelease SDK?
Fm: Wade Mintz 72110,520
To: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 (X)

Thanks Steve.
Since I'm working with a partner and ordered two SDKs, will I receive 1 or two
CDs?
Wade

#: 13339 S1/Non-tech service
    23-Oct-92  04:39:33
Sb: #13146-Beta vs. Prerelease SDK?
Fm: Wim Bonner 72561,3135
To: Dwight Matheny (MS) 70750,2340

It is good to know that I should get everything the beta has (Will I get
general end user Docs for NT?) with the SDK.

One other question I had.

Since the SDK is purchased directly from Microsoft, does it get registered
automaticly?  I didn't see any registration card in the box, and things are a
bit scattered now.  I want the updates to continue to go to the address I
originally had it sent to.

What address should I Mail or Fax a letter to to make sure that everything is
correct dealing with my registartion.  (The person getting my mail had not
received anything about the new version for me.)

Wim

#: 13177 S1/Non-tech service
    21-Oct-92  18:55:28
Sb: Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624
To: All

I really appreciate the replies I've received to my questions. After seeing the
back-and-forth arguments on Fidonet concerning OS/2 vs WinNT, I was a little
nervous about mentioning that I'm running OS/2 now. <g>
People seem to take sides with such religious fervor that one might think they
actually *wrote* the program.

In any event, I'm still a little fuzzy as to which operating system is
best-suited for the end-user. I'm looking to the future hoping that one of
these operating systems will finally, once and for all, get rid of the Dos
stranglehold.  The impression I'm getting from the replies is that OS/2 is
geared more for the desktop and that WinNT is geared more for the server. Is
this an accurate assessment?

Raymond S. Swaim


There are 2 Replies.

#: 13202 S1/Non-tech service
    21-Oct-92  23:21:56
Sb: #13177-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624

Raymond,

If you *really* want to know the answer, you probably will have to try them
both. A lot depends on what your needs are.

Bruce

#: 13316 S1/Non-tech service
    22-Oct-92  18:24:32
Sb: #13202-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624
To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 (X)

I do plan on trying both. I won't be trying NT though until it's released. I'm
not gung-ho enough to use up my drive space for a product that isn't anywhere
near completion yet. If it doesn't run the applications I currently own, then
it would just be a waste of disk space. I didn't beta-test OS/2 either.
However, I did get the 32-bit beta since it was a good deal farther along.

Raymond S. Swaim

#: 13217 S1/Non-tech service
    22-Oct-92  03:32:41
Sb: #13177-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624

Raymond,

<<The impression I'm getting from the replies is that OS/2 is geared more for
the desktop and that WinNT is geared more for the server. Is this an accurate
assessment?>>

I'd say that both OS's will be used on the desktop. I think that NT has a bit
more in the feature set than OS/2 does. But the determining factor between OS/2
and NT will be the resources (hardware) that is available.

NT will probably penetrate the workstation and server markets. It will also
make a great development platform. I expect that device drivers will also
appear in abundance for NT. But for *really* good performance I expect NT will
need a minimum of a 386/33 with 8 Mb (or more) and my personal preference will
be the fastest 486 with at least 16 Mb (probably 32) with at least a 500 Mb
drive. But I'll really be working NT to death. <g>

OS/2 will compete with Windows 3.1 and it's variants (IMHO). I think NT will be
competing with UNIX workstations and Server OS's (Lan Manager, Netware, etc).
In time NT will penetrate the lower platforms as well.

I think the final determination will be driven by hardware prices. You can get
a fast machine with lots of memory for a good price nowadays.

Art

#: 13347 S1/Non-tech service
    23-Oct-92  05:57:33
Sb: #13217-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art,

>>will be the resources (hardware) that is available.<<

That, IMHO, is only one of the issues. Another will be compatibility with
legacy apps, user interface will play a key role as well. Whether one likes
WPS or not, it is a significant differentiator, and will play a large part in
the buying decision.

John

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13353 S1/Non-tech service
    23-Oct-92  06:06:29
Sb: #13347-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452 (X)

John,

<<Whether one likes WPS or not, it is a significant differentiator, and will
play a large part in the buying decision.>>

that's very true. I personally do not like the WPS. Untill a new shell is
available and supportted I will not use OS/2 2.0 on a daily basis. I'm going
to install the new beta and see what it looks like as well as check out the
compatability with my hardware. But that's just to keep up with things. I
doubt if it will be installed for too long. When I need the space....

Art

#: 13346 S1/Non-tech service
    23-Oct-92  05:57:27
Sb: #13177-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624

Raymond,

>>which operating system is best-suited for the end-user.<<

This is a 'Holy Grail' type search. The correct answer is 'one size doesn't
fit all'. There are a lot of issues to be weighed and trade offs-to be made.

We have over-laps, but not truly direct competition (except for Win/NT &
UNIX). I visualize it like this:

        DOS/Win---->
                   <-----OS/2 2.0
        Win/NT----->

When IBM releases an OS/2 3.0 and MS fills the gap between DOS/Win & Win/NT
things will get even more interesting.

John




#: 12714 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  08:55:06
Sb: Windows NT beta update
Fm: Graham Stephen 100013,50
To: Paul Fletcher [OWL] 72057,703

Paul,

I think the number you require is 0256 381100.  I believe that is the
NT Hotline.

Glad to see I am not alone in Scotland with NT.

Graham


#: 12780 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  04:19:20
Sb: #12408-Binary Portability
Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267
To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X)

Ben, I'm not really familiar with ANDF, however surely the principle behind it
is to enable the SAME binary to run on MULTIPLE platforms.  So where do the
upgrades come in?

I'm drawing comparisms with the old CIS-Cobol system which had an interpreted
object code able to run on several platforms.

Andy.

#: 12719 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  10:47:32
Sb: #12549-When will NT ship?
Fm: Ladislav Nemec 70732,3207
To: Bill Herder 73417,3431 (X)

Just kidding, anyway. I certainly have an apprehension to vote for a CHANGE.
It may well be for the worse. On the other hand, Bush did not seem to have any
ideas to begin with and, so far, there is no indication that he will ever have
some. The whole thing is like switching to a new and wondeful OS just to
discover how half-baked the whole thing is. But, most of us do it anyway.

Regards, LN.


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12790 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  06:11:07
Sb: #12719-When will NT ship?
Fm: Bill Herder 73417,3431
To: Ladislav Nemec 70732,3207

LN, got to agree there.  Sounds like propaganda rhetoric, but I do believe
that most problems have risen from Congress.  Bush has never had the support
to promote change of any kind.  Oh well, we'll see.

Bill

#: 12711 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  08:13:20
Sb: Release Registration?
Fm: Irv Pavlik 71131,3347
To: sysop (X)

When I received the NT Pre-release I saw no registration form included with
the package. Do I need to register? or am i already registered? I was assuming
I was automaticaly registered since there was no form. Thanks Irv Pavlik
71131,3347

#: 12829 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  11:04:35
Sb: #12711-Release Registration?
Fm: Dwight Matheny (MS) 70750,2340
To: Irv Pavlik 71131,3347

If you're referring to the Win32 SDK, you were automatically registered when
you ordered the product.

-Dwight (MS)

#: 12784 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  05:47:29
Sb: Sound -> noises
Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325
To: All

I have spent this past weekend tweaking and exploring WINNT. I have now, and
never had before, numerous sounds emananting from the box during routine
TAPCIS passes. I have noted, with WIN 3.1, basic single beeps out of TAPCIS
when I complete a pass to CIS for example, but now I am greeted with tonal
de-dah-dees and the like. Not a problem just a difference. If my TAPCIS
config, parms and the like have not been altered from WIN 3.1 to the NT setup,
where do the sounds now come from? I doubt, although with the brain damage I
have incurred in the last few days it IS possible, that TAPCIS has learned
music while I was learning NTso I am concluding NT adds a 4 piece band to Apps
where Windows 3.1 provided sheet music only. What is the straight skinny?

#: 12833 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  11:24:34
Sb: #12784-Sound -> noises
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: Denis Day 75236,3325 (X)

Hi Denis,

 > I have now, and never had before, numerous sounds emananting
 > from the box during routine TAPCIS passes. I have noted, with
 > WIN 3.1, basic single beeps out of TAPCIS when I complete a
 > pass to CIS for example, but now I am greeted with tonal
 > de-dah-dees and the like. Not a problem just a difference. If
 > my TAPCIS config, parms and the like have not been altered
 > from WIN 3.1 to the NT setup, where do the sounds now come
 > from?

They are actually the sounds TAPCIS normally makes. TAPCIS makes a series of
tones so generate the "blipping" sounds it makes and when you slow them down
you get some weird sounding music instead of the blipping effect.

MS-DOS support in the July release had not been optimized and was relatively
slow. The beta release this month should help improve this since we did a lot
of work on MS-DOS/WOW.

BTW, I was perplexed when I first heard it too <g>!

Talk to you later,

  Steve

#: 12628 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  17:48:30
Sb: #12063-ATM 2.02
Fm: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

After you questioned me on the matter, I wondered if was loading ATM, or
something related to it, from my Windows 3.1 directory.  Sure enough, what I
am seeing is not ATM itself, but rather an application with the icon title
ATMCNTRL that WINNT found when scanning my disk for Windows applications.
When I looked at the properties of this icon, I found it is the control ap for
the ATM that is installed in my Windows 3.1 directory.  ATM is not actually in
NT at all.

No wonder it screws up WINNT when I run it and ask it to deinstall ATM.
Actually, if NT is supposed to be so resistent to applications doing things
they shouldn't, I wonder how  ATMCNTRL able to cause me to have problems
logging out of NT?  ATMCNTRL from WIN31 must know how to do things to NT
itself, even if it isn't supposed to be able to.

I have already pressed Steve Fait [Microsoft] again about my ATM problems, and
he is probably wondering what I am talking about.  Maybe he'll read this.

Bob


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12638 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  19:26:46
Sb: #12628-ATM 2.02
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 (X)

Bob:

trust me on this one.  ATM will really screw up NT. It seems to be one of
those calls that locks everything up and NT gets upset. <bg>  ATM writes to
system.ini in 3.1 but this is a no-no in NT.

                               bob

#: 12864 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  15:21:27
Sb: #12628-ATM 2.02
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 (X)

Hi Bob,

 >No wonder it screws up WINNT when I run it and ask it to deinstall ATM.
 >Actually, if NT is supposed to be so resistent to applications doing
 >things they shouldn't, I wonder how  ATMCNTRL able to cause me to have
 >problems logging out of NT?  ATMCNTRL from WIN31 must know how to do
 >things to NT itself, even if it isn't supposed to be able to.

This was a bug in the July release (if you crashed the MS-DOS/WOW subsystem,
you would be unable to logoff Windows NT successfully). It is fixed in this
month's updated version. TTYL,

  Steve

#: 12631 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  18:16:19
Sb: #12279-ATM 2.02
Fm: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Pardon my ignorance, but what's the Magic Button?  Reset?
Bob


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12639 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  19:26:50
Sb: #12631-ATM 2.02
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246 (X)

Magic button is the rest switch, the old cold reboot panic attack <bg>.

                               bob

#: 12721 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  10:52:52
Sb: Mouse & CD-ROM
Fm: allen wyatt 72561,2207
To: All

Will the Windows NT spec, for final release, absolutely require the use of a
mouse, or will it be one of those "strongly recommended" items.

Also, will final Windows NT require the use of a CD-ROM, or is that for
beta/SDK only?

Thanx

#: 12900 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  19:09:14
Sb: #12721-Mouse & CD-ROM
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: allen wyatt 72561,2207

Hi Allen,

 >Will the Windows NT spec, for final release, absolutely require the use
 >of a mouse, or will it be one of those "strongly recommended" items.

No. A mouse is very helpful and highly recommended, but should not required to
use Windows NT.

 >Also, will final Windows NT require the use of a CD-ROM, or is that for
 >beta/SDK only?

Starting with the beta release of the operating system (and the second Win32
SDK pre-release), we will include a graphical installation that does not
require a CD-ROM drive. You will need one to get the files off of the CD, but
once you have them on a network share you will no longer require it. I believe
there will be floppies available for the final release as well. Talk to you
later,

   Steve

#: 12917 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  21:55:49
Sb: #12721-Mouse & CD-ROM
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: allen wyatt 72561,2207

Allen,

The mouse is one of those strongly recommended things. Although you can use
all of the Windows line without a mouse, the mouse makes it eaiser.

As far as the distribution method of the media is concened, I've heard that
the SDK will only be distributed on CD and the end user product will be
available available on both diskettes and CD.

Darren

#: 12889 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  18:18:21
Sb: New stuff on NT
Fm: pam fowler 72360,3446
To: pam fowler

I have recently received my initial copy of Win NT.  It has been on order for
the past 3 months.  What I need to know is if their are any updates that I
need to get?

Thanks Pam Fowler JHU/APL

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12933 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  04:05:59
Sb: #12889-New stuff on NT
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: pam fowler 72360,3446

Pam,

<<I have recently received my initial copy of Win NT.  It has been on order
for the past 3 months.  What I need to know is if their are any updates that I
need to get?>>

Not really. If you have a FD SCSI card, or an WD ethernet card, or a DEC
keyboard, there a few uploads in lib 2. Other than that I am not aware of any
updates. The next NT release is do about the end of the month. As i understand
it that is the first major update.

Art

#: 12608 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  15:04:59
Sb: #12347-ANSI.SYS available?
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: john stoddard 70670,2106

Hi John,

The first final release of Windows NT will not provide support for ANSI escape
sequences.  You could create your own ANSI escape sequence handlers by parsing
the commands and calling the appropriate console APIs to execute the function.

You can, of course, change all the same settings from the system menu of the
SCS (Single Command Shell) as you can with ANSI.SYS. You just will not be able
to set your PROMPT to use neat colors for different things like you could
under DOS - at least not in the first release. Talk to you later,

   Steve




There is 1 Reply.

#: 12669 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  10:04:29
Sb: #12608-ANSI.SYS available?
Fm: Cohagan 74375,313
To: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 (X)

Steve-

 |The first final release of Windows NT will not provide support for ...
      ^^^^^^^^^^^

I guess it's a comment on software technology that someone can say this with
an (apparently) straight face!!  :-)

Bill

#: 12851 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  13:33:13
Sb: #12669-ANSI.SYS available?
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: Cohagan 74375,313 (X)


 >> |The first final release of Windows NT will not provide support for
 >> ...   ^^^^^^^^^^^

 >I guess it's a comment on software technology that someone can say this
 >with an (apparently) straight face!!  :-)

Oops. My faux pas. I was thinking final (ie, non-beta) release of the OS and I
wanted to make it clear that I meant... well, heck I'm not sure what I *meant*
to type. I, of course, mean the first retail release of the Windows NT OS
<sf>.

  <sf> --- straight faced <g>.








There is 1 Reply.

#: 12935 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  04:38:43
Sb: #12851-ANSI.SYS available?
Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325
To: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 (X)

An I thought it was <sf> - small frown, as opposed to <bg> - big grin

Anothe giant leap for for (my) narrow minds...<bg>

#: 12592 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  12:42:41
Sb: #12557-Freecell
Fm: John Stoddard 72400,2551
To: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052 (X)

Absolutely a great game!

My additions to your strategy points are, 1) be VERY careful about using up
the free cells at the upper left - when I lose, it's usually because I
foolishly built up too many cards there. and 2) try to develop open columns.
These facilitate big transfers; notice that if you, for instance, try to move
5 cards and get the message saying you only have 4 open cells, and you can
move a single card up to the upper left to open up a column (... see rule one
above, though...) you will now have enough room - a 2-for-1, as it were. If
you have two columns open, you can move a stack of nearly any size.

I'm running about 65% myself, my best boast is a 17-game winning streak.

John

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12817 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  10:26:46
Sb: #12592-Freecell
Fm: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052
To: John Stoddard 72400,2551

17 games in a row!  My best so far is 7 and I'm running at 67%.
Yes, clearing up columns definitely helps, especially when you can start
building a new, "more stable" column there.

But speaking of moving colums, isn't it neat how the program is "smart" enough
to know how to temporarily move cards to empty spaces and columns when you're
moving a big column?  I guess Microsoft has learned that the best way to make
an operating system a success is to include a neat card game with it.
                          :)
Bruce Terry
Teleware, Inc.

#: 12974 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  09:42:19
Sb: #12817-Freecell
Fm: John Stoddard 72400,2551
To: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052

.. yes, or maybe the best way to decrease their competitor's productivity...
;-)

I wonder, though, why Freecell doesn't figure out to use empty columns when
doing a move of a column? You only get as many cards moved as will transfer
via the upper cells, even if you have multiple open columns. Too bad they
don't ship source, like the games in the original OS/2 SDK...

John

#: 12619 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  16:52:51
Sb: #12557-Freecell
Fm: Jeong Ho Lee 70253,1244
To: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052 (X)

>> 1) Move aces up as soon as possible.
   It's too obvious to be a strategy.

>> 2) Try to develop "King Columns"....
   That's not always true. We have 2 strategies to win a game - long term
   strategy and short term strategy. It is a ultimate goal to make "king's
   column". But, most of times, simply we cannot develope it because of
   scrambled card arrangements. During a game, we have to develope many
   short term strategy to improve card-arrangement.

My rule of thumb is "Be patient". Never put cards on the temporary area,
unless you can restore them within finite moves. You have to foresee even 10
or more moves ahead.  By incrementally improving arrangement of cards,
suddenly you will win.

My winning streak WAS 50+, I has erased the game to save my life. If you can
win 5 games in a row, we can easily win 50 in a row. So, stop playing when
you have won 5 in a row.

jLee

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12819 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  10:31:35
Sb: #12619-Freecell
Fm: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052
To: Jeong Ho Lee 70253,1244

Yes, moving aces up as soon as possible may seem obvious, but I mean I move
them up even at the cost of filling up most of the free spaces at the top.

Also, I agree that developing a "King Column" isn't always the wisest move,
especially when you can't do much with it!  But what I do is develop the
highest possible card as a column head and move all cards possible onto it and
continue to try to make a "King Column".

And yes, you are right.  Patience is the best advice for this game.

If you've won 50+ games in a row, then you must be considering if indeed every
game is winnable.  So, have you proven it?  Has anyone else proven it?

Bruce Terry
Teleware, Inc.

#: 12850 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  13:21:37
Sb: #12819-Freecell
Fm: Jeong Ho Lee 70253,1244
To: Teleware, Inc. 73547,3052

>> you must be considering if indeed every game is winnable...

I cannot prove it mathematically. But I guess it may be true. A few games
required me 30 minutes or more to win.

jLee

#: 12809 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  10:00:09
Sb: new system
Fm: joe parness 70363,1137
To: sysop (X)

I am looking to buy a new system and to say the least I am really
confused!@#$@ Can anybody make a recommendation about ISA vs. EISA ? What kind
of troller to buy as well as video. I of course want as much speed as possible
(local bus video and disk ?) I want to put 32 megs on the system, any problems
with this ?

#: 12932 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  04:00:50
Sb: #12809-new system
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: joe parness 70363,1137

Joe,

<<ISA vs. EISA>>

Now that's a can of worms to open! <g>

But considering that you want to use 32 Mb of memory and the fastest video
around, I'd recommend an EISA system. And really just for one reason...

Memory addressing!

An EISA machine really does offer 32 bit addressing to physical memory and
bus. While an ISA machine limits this to 24 bit addressing. 24 bit addresing
cause problems with > 16 Mb DMA transfers. It also appears to be a problem
with ATI's new MACH coprocessor line. The MACH line has a 12 Mb physical RAM
limit on an ISA machine. You could ask Bob Chronister for more info there.

Art


PS: There are other EISA advantages, with a few minor disadvantages, but I
didn't want to type for that long... <g>

#: 12980 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  09:57:14
Sb: #12932-new system
Fm: joe parness 70363,1137
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Do any of these problems go away on a local bus box ?

#: 13063 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  22:23:42
Sb: Comparison NT to OS/2
Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725
To: all

In the IBM OS2SUPPORT forum, there is a document called "YOS2TX.ZIP". It seems
to contain a rebuttal to some documents which Microsoft published comparing
OS/2 and Windows NT.

Being a fair person, I would like to read the documents from Microsoft. I have
read the rebuttal from IBM. However, that is only one side to the story.

Could some nice person upload to the forum the comparison document between
Microsoft NT and OS/2 2.0. It would be nice to read the original information
which caused such heated debate over in IBM land.

Thanks.

#: 12627 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  17:30:02
Sb: #12535-To NT or not to NT?
Fm: John Hall 70750,2341
To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X)

Yes, I work for MS.

#: 12728 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  12:36:39
Sb: #12293-To NT or not to NT?
Fm: Earl Baum - SASI 71053,3421
To: david sinfield 100112,414

You may want to consider Windows for Workgroups, which has some of the 32-bit
advantages of NT, but with lower hardware requirements.  It also adds
peer-to-peer capabilities to your Novell Network.

Earl Baum, CNE

#: 13066 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  22:56:10
Sb: #12728-To NT or not to NT?
Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656
To: Earl Baum - SASI 71053,3421

>You may want to consider Windows for Workgroups, which has some of the 32-bit
advantages of NT, but with lower hardware requirements.

Hi Earl, just wondering what 32-bit advantages of NT are you refering to?
Thanx.

Bill Lee, CNE

#: 12571 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  10:21:10
Sb: NT and UNIX
Fm: Mike McKechnie 71043,2154
To: Steve Fait (Microsoft) 75300,3143 (X)

Steve:

I wondered whether or not NT will be supporting UNIX boot options.  As you
probably know, a system running, say, SCO Unix gives the user the option of a
DOS boot.  NT Gives the same option.  However, to switch from NT to Unix, I
have to boot NT, choose the DOS boot option, run fdisk, switch the active
partition to the Unix partition, and then reboot.  This is highly
inconvenient.

If you're not the person to be asking, please redirect me.  thanks for your
attention.

                                                - Mike.



There are 2 Replies.

#: 12612 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  15:49:17
Sb: #12571-NT and UNIX
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: Mike McKechnie 71043,2154

Hi Mike,

To the best of my knowledge the first release of Windows NT will not support
Unix boot options and MS-DOS/Windows NT dual boot is the only supported
feature.

Others in this forum have managed to get the OS/2 dual boot to work with
Flexboot (though it also is unsupported) and it may be possible to do a
similar thing with Unix. Post a message in Section 3 (Windows NT setup) to see
if anyone has tried this yet. There is a good chance you will have to use the
sequence you describe to dual boot between the two, however.

  Steve




There is 1 Reply.

#: 12630 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  18:07:59
Sb: #12612-NT and UNIX
Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322
To: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143 (X)

Steve,

I would expect that since MS is pushing UNIX & OS/2 migrating to NT that it
will have to provide developers a way to have both systems installed and be
able to boot between them.

Carl

#: 12907 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  20:14:56
Sb: #12630-NT and UNIX
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322

Hi Carl,

Currently development here is focusing on offering as stable an operating
system as possible. I think they are more concerned with getting the OS solid
than working on additional dual-boot support and other features right now even
though they would make nice additions to the product. I'm not in Marketing, so
if there is some other motivation behind it I'm unaware of them at this time
:-). TTYL,

  Steve

#: 12739 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  17:49:39
Sb: #12571-NT and UNIX
Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514
To: Mike McKechnie 71043,2154

Mike:

I don't think that microsoft cares to much about UNIX.  Windows 3.1 won't
allow you to turn on fastdisk if there is a UNIX partition on the
same hard drive.  Even though this was brought up in the Windows 3.1 beta it
was never changed.

Carlen

#: 12991 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  10:41:40
Sb: #12739-NT and UNIX
Fm: Mike McKechnie 71043,2154
To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514

Carlen:

Actually, if I was willing to risk installing the pre-beta NT on the same
drive as I have UNIX, I could probably always boot UNIX, then choose DOS boot
if I wanted it.  The DOS boot just starts the DOS partition, which would be an
NT partition, so I could then choose between NT and DOS.  Kind of an
IF/THEN/ELSE IF cascade, huh?

In the meantime, I'll just live with it.  Thanks for your input.

Mike

#: 13162 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  15:53:03
Sb: #12571-NT and UNIX
Fm: Louis Kahn 70473,1012
To: Mike McKechnie 71043,2154

The way I have found to do this is with BOOT MANAGER, it comes with OS/2 2.0 as
part of FDISK.  The setup is as follows:
Partition 1: NT/DOS with NT's Dual Boot Option Turned On
Partition 2: IBM OS/2 2.0
Partition 3: UnixWare (UNIX Partition)
Partition 4: BOOT MANAGER (Active Partion)

When the system boots it boots into the BOOT MANAGER, then I choose the
partition I want to bood.  By doing this I get 4 OS's on one Hard Disk. I will
loose DOS when NTFS is more stable, but that's fine, I don't want DOS anyway.
This solution supports at least 3 OSes and if any of those OSes have dual boot
options, then you can double the # of OSes.  If you want more info, let me
know.
Louis Kahn
US Centers For Disease Control
NCPS/IM | IRMO
[e-mail]

#: 12772 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  03:58:02
Sb: ANSI tape support?
Fm: David A. Solomon 71561,3603
To: sysop sysop (X)

Someone recently asked me if anyone knew of ANSI tape support being done for
Windows NT -- anybody know of such a beast?

#: 13166 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  17:08:13
Sb: #12772-ANSI tape support?
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: David A. Solomon 71561,3603

Hi David,

 >Someone recently asked me if anyone knew of ANSI tape support being done
 >for Windows NT -- anybody know of such a beast?

Yes, we have a full API set for tape backup using a customized version of
Maynard-format tapes built in to the system. There are no overviews in the SDK
help files yet, but the API descriptions are all there.

If you are looking for another kind of tape support, there is a good chance it
will come from a third-party vendor in the future.

  Steve

#: 12924 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  23:51:10
Sb: Stacker or like inWinNT?
Fm: Matt Nations 73417,511
To: all

Will MS or a third party offer dynamic compression a la Stacker or comparable
for WinNT upon or soon after general release?

Alternately, will WinNT enable us to keep our DOS based Stacker 2.0 [or some
other comparable] dynamic file compression?

We purchased the Win32SDK before realizing that without dynamic compression
conversion to WinNT would be much to expensive if first we will have to
acquire enough storage to contain noncompressed files. Our business depends
upon a great number of AutoCAD, Quattro Pro and dBase files, all of which are
notoriously inefficient file formats. Consequently, Stacker 2.0 has become
indispensible for us.





There are 2 Replies.

#: 12934 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  04:26:38
Sb: #12924-Stacker or like inWinNT?
Fm: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634
To: Matt Nations 73417,511

Matt,
        NT is currently only *just* entering beta testing.  Providing bells
and whistles like stacker is not a priority at the moment. As I recall MS is
planning to provide its own compression utility, just don't expect to see it
till after commercial release. IOW its too early.
                        best...Tony.

#: 13065 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  22:39:26
Sb: #12934-Stacker or like inWinNT?
Fm: Tim Butterfield [RDI] 70304,277
To: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634

Tony,

Since each DOS box is a VM, shouldn't they be allowed to use their own device
drivers (obviously with limits controlled by NT), ala config.sys?  By doing
this, users could boot a DOS session with a specific config and autoexec and
have access to their stacker drive, non-supported CD-ROM, etc.

I have an old Sony 321B CD-ROM drive which I can use from DOS but cannot use
from NT.  If I can't get a driver for running it directly under NT, I'd at
least want to be able to access it from a DOS box.

ie, I want a *real* DOS box. <g>

Tim

There are 2 Replies.

#: 13078 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  03:58:12
Sb: #13065-Stacker or like inWinNT?
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Tim Butterfield [RDI] 70304,277

Tim,

<<Since each DOS box is a VM, shouldn't they be allowed to use their own
device drivers (obviously with limits controlled by NT), ala config.sys?>>

Direct access to the hardware vis a DOS app is a violation of NT's basic
robustness/security features. I don't think this is going to happen anytime in
the near future.

These DOS specific drivers will need to be re-written as an NT driver. NT's
DOS and Windows 3.x sub-systems are not designed to be 100% compatible with
the real DOS/Win 3.x for _all_ DOS & Windows apps. Mostly it will depend on
how well the manufacture followed the rules. <g>

Art


PS: I forgot. NT does not have a DOS box. It has a console window. :)

#: 13090 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  07:02:15
Sb: #13065-Stacker or like inWinNT?
Fm: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226
To: Tim Butterfield [RDI] 70304,277

>> ie, I want a *real* DOS box. <<

OS/2 has one.  NT never will.  I'm not trying to put down NT, I respect the
reasons for this but the OS/2 approach works very well, including the ability
to load a different set of DOS drivers in each DOS session.

#: 13125 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  10:28:14
Sb: #13090-Stacker or like inWinNT?
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 (X)

If there's a big enough demand, I'm sure Insignia will do a version of SoftPC
for NT.  It's kind of a funny idea, emulating an x86 chip in software on x86
hardware, but if there's a market, there'll be a product.

#: 12959 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  08:13:17
Sb: #12924-Stacker or like inWinNT?
Fm: Daniel Norton 76050,2204
To: Matt Nations 73417,511

Matt,

I believe that STAC is very interested in providing NT compatibility/support
for Stacker drives, although it may be some time before anything is
available.  You might try to contact STAC directly or via their BBS and ask
the question there.
--
Daniel Norton

#: 13158 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  15:29:36
Sb: #12959-Stacker or like inWinNT?
Fm: Cohagan 74375,313
To: Daniel Norton 76050,2204 (X)

Daniel-
  Do you have a number for the STAC BBS?

Bill

There are 2 Replies.

#: 13163 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  16:48:19
Sb: #13158-Stacker or like inWinNT?
Fm: Gregory Justice 70631,152
To: Cohagan 74375,313 (X)

Type GO STACKER!

#: 13193 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  20:39:16
Sb: #13158-Stacker or like inWinNT?
Fm: Daniel Norton 76050,2204
To: Cohagan 74375,313 (X)

The STAC BBS is [phone].  Have your serial number handy.
--
Daniel

#: 13052 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  20:49:44
Sb: DEC/NT
Fm: pam fowler 72360,3446
To:  71041,2613 (X)

Forgot to ask a question regarding NT.  When I was talking with Washington, I
ask about the Alpha units that DEC is planning on releasing soon.  When will
NT be ready for testing in BETA on an Alpha?  The person that I talked wwith
was not certain if you would be providing that at all, and that perhaps I
might need to talk with DEC.  IF this is the case, any help that you could
send my way would be a big help.  If I need to communicate with DEC let me
know and I will contact them.  We are hopefull of getting an Alpha soon per
perhaps.

Thanks Again

Pam Fowler  JHU/APL

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13073 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  03:36:03
Sb: #13052-DEC/NT
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: pam fowler 72360,3446

Pam,

<<When will NT be ready for testing in BETA on an Alpha?>>

Wish I knew. I hear through the trade mags that NT actually ran on an Alpha
somewhere, but there was no other mention. I'd suggest talking directly to
your DEC rep and see what he can find out for you.

<<We are hopefull of getting an Alpha soon per perhaps.>>

If you do I'd certainly like to hear how well it does.

Art

#: 13206 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  00:07:09
Sb: #13052-DEC/NT
Fm: Ken North 71301,1306
To: pam fowler 72360,3446

DEC has several centers nationwide which are supporting migration of
applications from the VAX product line to the Alpha. These sites provide access
to the hardware, software and tools to facilitate the conversion. But, the
support is for VMS for Alpha. I've not heard of NT conversion support. Call DEC
for more info.

#: 13293 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  13:58:51
Sb: Marketer/C Programmer
Fm: Mark DeWitt 70403,224
To: all

*A major software company seeks 5 people to relocate to Washington state-
in Marketing Department.  These 5 will work to convince corporations of the
technical merits of the entire software product line.
Requires 5-10 years experience including:
BSCS or MSCS education-
        a. 2+ years in Windows SDK /or C development for MS
DOS/Windows
        b. Strong Marketing and persuasion skills in working with
corporations
Base salary depends on exp. + 15% bonus + stock plan + relocation + full
benefits
For further information please call Eric Dunlap at [phone].

#: 12572 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  10:38:50
Sb: #12478-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322
To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226

Chuck,

Thing like security, Unicode support, etc. are not simple add ons.  It will
require new file systems and the like can not be written is a day.  I would
estimate about 6 mos design.  18 mos code, unit & alpha test.  6 mos
validation and beta.

This is about half the time that it takes to build an OS from scratch.  It
will take time port/rewrite things like the workplace shell as well.  Putting
more people on the project can not speed it up.

Much of the older OS/2 code is all assembler and that code will have to be
rewritten in C.

Yes you have a working kernel but that is just a piece of the OS.  Much of
rest will be primarily new code.

Carl

#: 12573 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  10:38:59
Sb: #12464-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322
To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X)

Will,

From what I understand is that NT was originally developed by MS for the OS/2
environment not for Windows.  However, the rift was probably two sided.  Both
IBM & MS wanted to do OS/2 their own way.  They kept butting heads because
each company and a different view of the industry.  IBM was never too
interested in Windows because they felt that PM was a better API. MS OTOH was
impressed by the sales of Windows knowing the since the API was under the
covers that it did not matter much to the average consumer.

It was a good idea for both parties to split because they can now go their own
ways.  This give us the opportunity to see who's vision is better.

Unfortunately I have a clearer image of MS's view that IBM's.  Even though I
come from an IBM background dating back to the 50s, I can not seem to elicit a
clear view from IBM as to what its strategic objectives are.  This does not
leave me with warm fuzzies.

Carl

#: 12581 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  12:21:12
Sb: #12563-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X)

Will,

From the data/presumptions in the column, I wouldn't have drawn as an extreme
conclusion. Our diff's here are essentially ones of absolute magntitude. I
agree that every day of NT slip benefits OS/2 (and of course the *IXs).

I also think there are going to be some folks are going to be real unhappy
campers when they run in to one of the Win16 or DOS gotcha's and find that
there may never be a solution for their problems. It seems even when MS is
forthright about the DOS/Win16 issues (and at the non-exec levels they have
been pretty forthright as a rule), people choose not to listen.

I also don't buy the claim, by a long shot, that NT's and OS/2's resource
requirements are equivalent that one sees on occasion. On this issue you may
have given NT too much benefit of the doubt. Besides at least a 4MB RAM
difference, there is at least a 25% processor power difference.

But does all this add up to your prediction, I don't think so. More critical
will be how long it takes MS to fill the gap between Win 3.1 & Win NT, plus
move the Win interface to the next level. I think OS/2 fills a nice sweet spot
in the continium that MS has missed, plus ProgMan/FileMan is getting real
dated (anyone hear any rumblings about an NDW/NT? I sure do miss it when I run
NT). NT just doesn't cover enuf of the market to qualify as the straw to
possibly break MS's back. It could tarnish MS's image a bit, but it will take
dropping the ball totally in the next low to mid range Win to do them in. I
don't see that as a likely scenario, BTW. I also don't see MS blowing OS/2 out
of the water. It is just too useful an OS.

John





There is 1 Reply.

#: 12604 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  14:19:25
Sb: #12581-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

 >But does all this add up to your prediction, I don't think so.

John,

What prediction do you think I've made that all this does not add up to? I'm
really not being deliberately obtuse, honest!  I've not got the Upside piece
handy so I don't recall exactly what I said there, but to the best of my
recollection I said that I expected Microsoft (and Windows) to suffer, shall
we say, a certain 'fall from grace' over the next 12-18 months.  NT is only
one part of that.

Other parts include:  1) Windows still really isn't quite the overwhelming
presence Microsoft claims that it is (and that many in the trade press seem to
believe that it is); 2) Microsoft's revenue stream from royalties is likely to
be under some downward pressure as a result of the recent renegotiation of the
contract with IBM; 3) Microsoft's applications competitors are starting to get
competitive in the Windows market; 4) Microsoft revenue growth cannot continue
anywhere close to current rates for much longer (but MSFT stock valuation
assumes that it will); 5) Microsoft's highly competitive corporate culture,
which doesn't make for very good winners is likely to make for worse losers
once some setbacks occur and 6) the role of stock options in key employee
compensation, while a big plus as long as the share price asymptotically
approached infinity are likely to be a big minus on motivation and so forth
once MSFT's share price takes a serious dive.

Disappointment with the reality of NT relative to the promises (and, even
worse, expectations) *is* likely to serve as a trigger for a spate of problems
for Microsoft (witness the quite negative coverage last week of the delay for
NT delivery in pubs like PC Week, Inforworld and Computerworld) but

the other factors are at least as important in my downside scenario for
Microsoft.  An equally possible trigger, however, would be a quarter of
disappointing earnings relative to the extremely high expectations on Wall St.
Either could easily set of a nasty downward spiral.

Will

There are 2 Replies.

#: 12696 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  18:58:06
Sb: #12604-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Raymond Chuang 72441,3652
To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X)

Will,

You're going to start a new forum on CIS??

If that happens, I hope it doesn't happen when CIS installs its new forum
software or we'll be reading LONG messages from regular posters. It'll have a
mighty fast scroll rate, too. ;D

Raymond Chuang

#: 12786 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  06:10:15
Sb: #12604-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X)

Will,

You closed with 'That will be enough to send the house of cards tumbling'
which is quite a bit stronger than 'tarnishing' or even 'fall from grace'.

But as to the stock valuation, I think even MS agrees that it is a bit out of
hand. With every quaters report their CFO (Frank Gaudette?) warns that the
financial community that they shouldn't expect it to keep up. On the other
hand how do you accurately value a software company? Especially MS. No long
term debt, an increasing portfolio of patents, a cash cow that only requires
minimal care and feeding, ...?

An 'adjustment' of MS's stock price may bum out some of their employees, but I
think that to a significant portion of them it would largely pass unnoticed
(religuous fervor & materialism do not go hand in hand<g>).

John

#: 12615 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  16:22:32
Sb: #12259-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

>My little Compaq SLT/286 with 2.5MB of RAM has often run 1.3. Kinda slowly,
but so is Windows 3.1 on that system.

I think my IBM XT-286 (6 whopping MHZ) w/2.5MB ran 1.3 even slowler then
yours, but it sure did *ran*, solidly(is that a word?)!  The Windows things
crashed quite a bit, maybe due to low on memory, and had to swap more then it
was designed for.

#: 12622 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  17:12:04
Sb: #12439-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267
To: Paul Cassel 71250,563 (X)

What the f*** does yah mean????  Yeah, or yes I understand, but yah is an
abortion of a word, and most akin to an english upper class yah! which I KNOW
you don't mean!!!!  Please don't use this form of english unless you REALLY
mean it!

Graham (English thought police) :)

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12677 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  10:24:36
Sb: #12622-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X)

Ah, my 'yah' dost offend thee.  It shall forever been, then, yeah, unless a
careless slip of the keyboard do betray me.  What, praytell, doth the
>>english upper class yah!>> mean?  I being of the New Mexican lower class
woefully untutored in these matters.

                                        Paul

There are 2 Replies.

#: 12708 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  05:17:09
Sb: #12677-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732
To: Paul Cassel 71250,563

Well, a real English Gentleman would know that "English" is always
capitalised.

Jon <G>

#: 12820 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  10:43:18
Sb: #12708-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732 (X)

I thought so, (on 'English'). I felt my correspondent here has some sorta
grudge against royals.  Not the only one, if so, I suppose.

                            Paul

#: 13075 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  03:39:25
Sb: #12820-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732
To: Paul Cassel 71250,563

And "slip of the keyboard do betray me".

Tut tut, dear me: try "slip of the keyboard betrayeth me". Sounds much more
Olde English As She is Writ. :-)

Jon

#: 12709 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  06:15:28
Sb: #12677-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267
To: Paul Cassel 71250,563

I know my response may have been a bit extreme....... :)

However, an upper class yah!, really refers to the way that some people say
yes.  It sounds really horrible and pretentious.


Regards,

Graham

#: 12821 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  10:45:20
Sb: #12709-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X)

Well I was a bit baffled over your reaction fer sure. I often make little
abbrev's in these notes so I don't have to type so much. On some heavy days
I've gotten as much as 45 notes in ONE forum, so I hope I can be excused my
occasional 'yah' instead of 'yeah' or 'tho' instead of though.

I've never heard an  upper class British talk other than a few royals on
TV/Radio so the yah! is news to me.

                                Paul

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12886 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  18:00:42
Sb: #12821-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267
To: Paul Cassel 71250,563

No offence meant really........ Just a niggly point when you read these
messages really late at night.

I certainly wouldn't want to put you off commenting on as many threads as
possible due to my english criticisms.  The more comments the better as far as
I am concerned.  A good lively conference has to be better than a stagnant one
any day!

Regards

Graham

#: 13016 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  13:43:32
Sb: #12886-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X)

Actually I wasn't insulted or bothered at all by your comment - more
interested really.  I did get some private messages saying I *should* have
been insulted tho <g>.  Goes to show I'd too stupid to know even when I've
been offended <G>.

                                 Paul

#: 12623 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  17:12:10
Sb: #12453-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 (X)

>>When IBM and MS made that 11/89 announcement about Windows for the low end
and >>OS/2 for the high end, Microsoft was (a) trying to stop IBM from doing
PM Lite >>and (b) about to release Windows 3.0, which for all practical
purposes required >>the 4MB they said was the break point at which you'd
switch to OS/2.

Absolutely!!!!!  I wouldn't trust a microsoft promise even if it was written
in BillGs blood.........

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12723 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  10:54:52
Sb: #12623-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X)

My point was not that Microsoft made promises in the 11/89 joint announcement
with IBM that it then broke, but rather that it was unreasonable to take that
document at face value, considering the absurdities it contained, and the
adversarial relationship of the parties that produced it.

#: 12624 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  17:12:16
Sb: #12455-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 (X)

I have to say that as a corporate developer, the delay in NT is likely to
cause us to go the OS/2 2.0 route for production.

We would LOVE to go NT, but our deliverable date of April 93 forces us to look
at OS/2 as a serious deliverable platform.  In April 93, OS/2 2.x will be
shipping, debugged and supported.  In April 93, Windows NT will be on version
1.0 (maybe released!) and will have a load of problems in the real world
(Guaranteed.... I'll put $1000 on it!).

What does a developer rely on?  Microsoft have not been very reliable on their
promises in the past!  I paid $2400 for an OS/2 2.0 kit from MS and got
SHAFTED!!!!!

Graham

ps. I actually like Win32!  (Windows is comparatively crap!)

There are 2 Replies.

#: 12637 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  19:26:35
Sb: #12624-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X)

  << I actually like Win32!  (Windows is comparatively crap!)>>

  Before you have yourself designated as official "English" police, you might
want to reconsider the statement that you made.  Something is either "crap" or
it is not "crap"; comparatively crap must then be totally different <bg>.

                               bob




There is 1 Reply.

#: 12736 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  17:46:16
Sb: #12637-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Ok, ok,   I know I shouldn't have mentioned this..... <bg>

Graham

There are 2 Replies.

#: 12778 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  04:19:11
Sb: #12736-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267

Besides which, of course, an English Gentleman never uses words like C....well
I can't say it but you know what I mean<g>

#: 12796 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  07:45:03
Sb: #12736-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267

I apologize for the jab on grammar but could not help it!  You set it up so
perfectly that I had to reply <bg>.

                               bob

#: 12726 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  12:31:19
Sb: #12624-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X)

Graham,

My current guess is a Feb date for NT.  OTOH I have seen MS start a concerted
effort to support and being more responsive to customers.  I have seen a big
change in the last year.

I also see some life in IBM as well but not as dramatic a change so far.

Carl

#: 12867 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  15:26:24
Sb: #12726-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322

>>My current guess is a Feb date for NT.

Want to bet?? I'll take a date that is no less than 9 months from the start
of the official beta. Actually, 10-12 sounds more like it, but 9's a good
safe number for me.

Bruce

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12887 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  18:00:48
Sb: #12867-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267
To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 (X)

 >>My current guess is a Feb date for NT.

I'd really like to agree, but, April/May seems like the optimistic date for
general release.  I certainly wouldn't say to my management that projects
based in NT beta can be delivered before April/May at the earliest. June/July
seems a prudent plan date to me.  This would give us the opportunity to be
proved totally wrong and pessimistic.  Please MS, prove me wrong...... I
really would like to be wrong this time..... :)

Graham

#: 13027 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  17:06:10
Sb: #12887-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X)

>>I certainly wouldn't say to my management that projects based in NT beta
can be delivered before April/May at the earliest. June/July seems a prudent
plan date to me.

Actually, if you ask me, any date before the first revision/update ships is
not prudent!!!! This goes for ANY OS. I can't believe that all of these
folks are putting their necks on the line for something that hasn't even
gone into beta, much less gone through a significant revision after its
become generally available. I thought NT was for mission-critical solutions.
Using a 1st release OS for something tells me that the project isn't very
mission critical, or that the people are seriously misusing the term. Or
that they're not real bright.

Bruce


There is 1 Reply.

#: 13040 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  19:36:44
Sb: #13027-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267
To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 (X)

>Using a 1st release OS for something tells me that the project isn't very
>mission critical, or that the people are seriously misusing the term. Or
>that they're not real bright.

But if we were to follow your reasoning, then NO projects would ever get
implemented using any new OS!  The question that arises in my own environment
is whether we develop for a platform (OS/2) that WILL be dropped in the near
to medium future by the organisation, or do we bite the bullet now, and
develop on the platform for the future?  Somebody somewhere has to be a
pioneer, and in this case we feel that we can justify pioneering NT in live
development.

Since the head of all end-user computing for one of the major UK banks is my
project sponsor, and he wants to see MS & Windows NT, I think that the choice
of NT really isn't such a bad one in the long term.  Believe me, I too have
certain misgivings about adopting a product in pre-beta for initial
development.  However, the pre-lim version of NT that we are running is of a
fairly stable standard that bodes well for the final result (I know I'll live
to regret saying this in 3 mths <bg>).  Please bear in mind that the
development is only using NT for server products, Windows 3.1 for the client
end.

What the hell, its good to be pushing the envelope for a change.  I did it
with OS/2 back in 88/89, so why not NT this time eh?

Graham

#: 13180 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  19:33:58
Sb: #13040-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267

Graham,

So long as you folks have contingency plans, I agree it's nice to push the
edge. It's fun, too! <G>

One thing in your note that I wanted to correct you on: OS/2 will NOT be
dropped. It will evolve, sure, but it will not be dropped. IBM hasn't done a
wonderful job of communicating this, but I am very sure of this. At least as
sure as anyone who's not Lee Reiswig can be<g>.

Bruce

#: 13067 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  22:57:08
Sb: #12867-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322
To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515

Bruce,

Most Beta programs involve a few to a couple hundred users.  NT now has about
20,000 copies out there and it has not even gone into Beta.  Thus the Beta
when it comes out will be more like a release upgrade than a new product.  I
suspect that part of the Beta delay is due to feed back from the users.

I also think that if MS can not get all of the wrinkles out, that it will do
what IBM did.  Release the product with restrictions.  I think that there is
too much riding on NT to delay the release more than 3 months.

I think that with the number of users that the bugs will be fixed in the code
shipped in the Beta.  What remains to be seen are features the miss the first
beta.  MS will try to get these in by the end of the year, and with the
numbers of users it will be easy to quickly wring out the bugs. Thus most of
the code will have been tested for 9 months and all of it tested for three
months.  With a few thousand active users, most bugs should surface.  I think
that by Feb the code should be as well tested as OS/2 2.0. I agree that it
will not be like DOS 5.0 but it should be a reasonably stable system.

Carl

#: 13129 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  10:53:11
Sb: #13067-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 (X)

Carl,

I appreciate your points, but I'd like to remind you that OS/2 had at least
as many "beta" testers, and yet there were still nagging bugs in the
product. I think you should also remember that this (NT) is an entirely new
OS, as OS/2 2.0 essentially was. There's no way that I'm going to believe,
no matter how many beta users, that the product will be 100% on day one of
shipping. All I was trying to say is that anyone who is betting their
company on mission-critical apps built on a new OS is not treating their
responsibilities to their company very seriously. I am NOT saying NT will be
a poor platform. On the contrary, I think it will do very well and certainly
has some marvelous features. I just wouldn't bet something really important
on it at this point.

Bruce

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13150 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  14:05:43
Sb: #13129-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463
To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 (X)

Bruce, I agree with your sentiments re "mission critical apps" and version
 .0 of anything.  But, if someone were developing a mission critical
application right now, and their tests have proved it to be reliable in the
current incarnation of NT, what would be so idiodic about using it right now?
The same concept goes for OS2, a lot of people are a little less than
enthusiastic about its reliability, but if I had a "mission critical" app that
was proven to be reliable on it, I would run it.  Of course, I wouldn't run
anything else not proven at the same time :-)

-Mark

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13203 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  23:22:01
Sb: #13150-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515
To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X)

>>But, if someone were developing a mission critical application right now,
and their tests have proved it to be reliable in the current incarnation of
NT, what would be so idiodic about using it right now?

Well, I suppose you could go forward carefully. But I'm sure you've seen
this as much as I have: no matter how much testing you do, implementations
are usually very different from testing. I guess it all depends on the
number of users, how easy it is to fall back to the older system, etc.

Bruce

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13250 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  08:47:37
Sb: #13203-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463
To: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515 (X)

My take on this version 1.0 vs 1.1 dilemma is that I would be less worried
about a specialized 'mission critical' application, and more worried about a
general OS change for a group that is going to be running various different
hardware configurations, and all kinds of software applications.  The former is
less complicated and thus easier to test and prove, while the latter is usually
a bit of a nightmare until general use eventually turns up the .x updates.

-MarkV

#: 12635 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  19:10:15
Sb: #12519-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345
To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X)

Ben,

  I just sort of hoped, I guess, that the quality of the the OS/2 yammering in
this forum would exceed the quality of the OS/2 yammering in the OS/2 forums.
At least you all haven't reached the same quantity levels here as you have
over there.

  Maybe you could try to top your own records in the OS/2 forums before
branching out. Please?

-- Jim F.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12651 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  01:27:06
Sb: #12635-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Ben Sano 72401,2736
To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X)

James

I don't believe that I have insulted you.

In message 12519 I believe that you have come fairly close to insulting me.

Would you please apologize.

--Ben


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12656 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  06:57:54
Sb: #12651-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345
To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X)

Ben,
  We're all familiar with the litany: MS screwed me over; MS abandoned me; MS
can't be trusted; Windows is terrible; OS/2 will save the world.

  To hear it once is a point of view. To hear it over and over and over and
over is yammering.

  What else would you call it?

-- Jim F.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12661 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  08:11:08
Sb: #12656-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Ben Sano 72401,2736
To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X)

James
  >What else would you call it?

I would still call it an insult.

I wouldn't call that an apology.

--Ben


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12678 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  10:43:08
Sb: #12661-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463
To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X)

Ben, I think you have played too tough of an adversarial role on this forum to
now be so thin skinned as to demmand an apology over something like this.....
For the sake of comparison, consider what has happened to people over on
IBMOS2 when they were critical of OS2.  I didn't see many apologies given out
there.  Now that I mention it, it is very interesting how much more tolerant
the MS forums are to criticism.  Regards,

-Mark

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12682 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  13:12:43
Sb: #12678-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Ben Sano 72401,2736
To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X)

Mark
 It is true that this forum is more tolerant then the IBMOS2 forum was
through its early history.  I however only once (and not to Jim Fergusson)
either on the PC Magnet forum or on the IBMOS2 forums was ever more then
slightly impolite.

I believe that I HAVE been adversarial here to some extent (but mostly just
looking for what people have based their opinions on, as this is something
which interests me and folks here have been willing to talk about this) but
I don't believe that I have been insulting to any one here either.

If I have I apologize.

But I have been insulted.

Not by you of course.

And would like an apology.
--Ben


There are 3 Replies.

#: 12684 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  16:22:16
Sb: #12682-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X)

ben:

lest you feel slighted, numerous of us here have been insulted.  take the
"yah" message to Paul Cassel, I was accused of not spelling correctly, and
rather ridiculous statements have been made to & fro.  Believe me I can
understand how you feel but numerous individuals here are just tired of being
asked to defend this or that.  With such frustration, anger often ensues.  Not
trying to defend just expressing how many here feel.

                               bob

#: 12687 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  16:31:52
Sb: #12682-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463
To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X)

Oh no, you haven't insulted me, and I certainly don't think you need to
apologize for anything.  If it weren't for provokative statements, this would
be a pretty boring forum, and I hope you continue to stir things up when you
feel like doing so.  My only point was that you shouldn't forget to put your
armour on when you do this.  You should see the dings in my armour from IBMOS2
and ZIF forums, but I lived to talk about it <g>.

BTW, I don't think anyone on this particular tangent of the thread needs to
apologise for anything, except perhaps cluttering it up with drivel, but, do
you realize that *demanding* an apology makes it less likely you will ever get
one?  (life is strange sometimes, ain't it?)

-Mark

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12725 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  11:09:43
Sb: #12687-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X)

>>I don't think anyone on this particular tangent of the thread needs to
apologise for anything, except perhaps cluttering it up with drivel<<

Right you are, this thread is for bilge, not drivel.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12733 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  13:10:43
Sb: #12725-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 (X)

 >Right you are, this thread is for bilge, not drivel.

Well, you know..., someone is going to come back from vacation and download a
huge thread clearly marked as 'bilge' and see all of our drivel and start
hollering at us for causing him/her to waste money on off-topic stuff.  I
think I will change the subject on my next post to this thread.

-MarkV

#: 12699 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  19:14:22
Sb: #12682-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345
To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X)

Ben,

  At the risk of dragging this out any further, I'll just say that I'm at a
loss to know just what it is you think I should apologize for.

  You and Mercer Harz have gone on at excruciating length about your hurt
feelings about the way big bad Microsoft has done you wrong. The character of
these messages, and even the exact wording, is identical to literally hundreds
of other messages that I have read in this forum and in the OS/2 forums.

  I began by asking if you guys ever get tired. Apparently you don't.

  You have a right to your opinions. You even have the right to express them
in this forum (where they are rather out of place IMO.)

  I have just as much right to characterize those opinions and the manner (and
length and repetitiveness) with which you expressed them.

  In America we don't yet have to apologize for our opinions. You've made your
opinion clear, and now I have as well.

-- Jim F.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12718 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  10:16:28
Sb: #12699-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Ben Sano 72401,2736
To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X)

Jim
Well until now my opinions have been about software and companies.

Yours have been about people.

Now I have one about a person.

I don't think I will bother to express it though.

--Ben

#: 12894 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  18:48:52
Sb: #12718-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: Ben Sano 72401,2736

Hey, Ben.  Jim really has a way of setting the tone for the discussions he
joins, eh?  Why don't you just consider the source, and blow it off.  I have.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12928 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  02:17:38
Sb: #12894-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

Mercer,

  Yeah, this discussion had a wonderful, friendly tone before I joined in.
As in this message from Mr. Sano:

>>Mark
>>Funny I agree that trying to run Windows on top of DR-DOS is an utterly
>>masochistic thing to try to do.
>>
>>The only problem is that I feel the same way about trying to run it on
>>MS-DOS.
>>
>>--Ben

-- Jim F.

#: 12641 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  20:48:10
Sb: #12555-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

Too late the hospital is entering liquidation. I'm going to try to get some
of the computer equipment at the court house steps.

IMO, if a company is telling you that you need a equipment ug to use their
sw they should be working with the IHV's on making sure the known problems
are doc'ed in the box, otherwise, total frustration for the end user.
However, in IBM's case this time it may have been laziness or studidity or
something a little deeper. I don't know.

Darren

#: 12664 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  09:44:09
Sb: #12443-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X)

Ben:

I have to be skeptical in the extreme that MS is sabotaging others' programs.
The vast majority of apps worked just fine under Win 3.1. DR DOS 6 was one of
the very few that didn't.  It didn't do so due to if not a failing, at least
an incompat put there by DRI.  MS just declined to "bless" their
non-conforming code.  I think it's within their right to decline this.

OTOH, Lotus is surely a direct competitor to MS, so when problems surfaced
with Ami Pro if you're right, MS would ignore those, but they didn't. Instead
Win 3.1 now runs all the AP's correctly.

I suspect we're gonna be seeing a new generation of non-compatible products.
YOu can't blame MS for this any more than you can that publisher over the hill
where Sheryl is.  Everybody wants their standards to be others'.

                                        Paul

#: 12665 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  09:46:33
Sb: #12453-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 (X)

Who can look into the minds of what people thought way back then? If you ask
MS and IBM they surely remember things quite differently.  I question how
great a practical threat PM lite ever was, tho.

I defend MS's decision to switch from OS/2 to NT as a biz/tech decision. Per
my notes to Mercer, I think they could have done it more politically, tho.

                               Paul

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12724 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  10:59:36
Sb: #12665-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Paul Cassel 71250,563

IBM intended PM Lite to be a Windows killer, and Microsoft certainly took that
threat seriously, regardless of how toothless it might in reality have been.

I'm not sure there was any way for Microsoft to walk away from IBM without
screwing over the people who had invested in OS/2.  Suppose Microsoft had
simply come out and said, "Okay, this OS/2 thing is a dud.  Let's give Windows
a try."  IBM would have sued the hell out of them, and would have had a good
chance of winning.  Then where would we be today?

#: 12826 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  10:50:23
Sb: #12724-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205

I'm usure how much MS took PM Lite seriously. I thought the idea funny. OS/2
is lite enough, why lessen it?  I do think MS can be manipulated into
panicking quite easily and this might be a case.

Mercer and I agree that MS could have done more to make those who originally
bought into the MS OS/2 SDK and did development whole after MS dropped the
project as a bad job.  This might have taken the form of extra low cost (or
free) support in NT, the full NT development package for those who owned the
OS/2 one, and similar programs.  MS did little and that's the base of a lot of
the anti-MS feeling you hear from developers here.

I didn't buy the OS/2 SDK, did no OS/2 development, fairly early on bought
into Windows instead, so naturally I don't share this resentment with those
who took the OS/2 path. I can understand their feelings, tho.

                                    Paul

#: 12666 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  09:53:21
Sb: #12464-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X)

Will:

That's an intriguing angle and one I've been thinking of recently. I'm going
on the assumption that MS has very capable people in both the business and
technical fields. That they chose to go with NT and drop OS/2, well, if NT
doesn't make it and soon, you'll be right and I guess Steve Ballmer will have
to eat a floppy disk in your honor <g>.

Now I surely don't know about IBM decision process, but I'd be willing to bet
that some influential engineer with a mainframe background, *proved* to people
at IBM that ethernet was theoretically too unreliable for IBM to relay on.  If
you examine ether's foundation you'll conclude (if you've never had any
practical experience with it) that it has too many opportunities for failure,
or at least very poor performance. Token Ring is theoretically the much better
performer.  That ether truly is better in the field and can be shown such if
one tries it, flys in the face of IBM conservative traditions.   If the new
version of OS/2 2 is really as good as IBM says it will be, and if NT is
further delayed, you will be proved right after all.

Thanks for keeping me posted on CANOPUS. I think it's a needed forum.

                                   Paul

#: 12667 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  09:59:07
Sb: #12472-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

John:

I can't say what a right multiplier might be either. I did once make an effort
to determine the off the record computer sales. Altho I'm a very small OEM,
all of my sales are off the record and I once wondered if in the aggregate we
tiny OEM's added up to a signficant volume.

My method was unscientific in the extreme. What I did was to clip what I felt
were relavant snips of info from the trades with a mind to compare chip
shipments and unit shipments (from the channel) to see the dif. Altho
StoreBoard won't ever record my sales, Intel will.  Well, I don't remember my
numbers, but I found overall chip sales exceeding greatly overall computer
unit sales.  Some accounting must be done for overseas mfg, but not that much,
IMO.

I never see IBM hw at small sites, only in great groups at institutions. I
guess that's to be expected.

                                   Paul

#: 12670 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  10:04:55
Sb: #12473-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

John:

Well, we gotta see. So far I'm *not* impressed with IBM's OS/2 support and
sales.  The classic: order the thing with a credit card and and have it
shipped to your APO. No go.

But we'll see on this one.  I slightly disagree about Win being the biggest
API other than INT21h.  I think it'll soon be bigger and it might even now be.
Not that the installed base will exceed DOS someday soon, but rather in apps
sales and in push for HW sales.

I know that as of now Win software sales exceed DOS ones.  Who in the industry
really cares if some fella is sticking to his WS 3.31 running on a 6300? What
the industry cares about is new sales, not those made in 1986.  Right now
people are spendin hundreds to buy video adapters optimized for Win, monitors
large enough to show more than a few frames, larger disks, memory, and most of
all those Win apps.

Win is, by this criteria, right now the largest API in the world.

                                     Paul

#: 12671 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  10:06:50
Sb: #12475-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Jonathan Honeyball 100031,2732 (X)

I know of a lot of people who are prepping NT proper apps right now. These
will be out at the intro. Sure, there will be a lot of recompiles, but there
will also be some native ones too.  It will take a lot of time for Win/DOS
programmers to get the rhythm of NT's methods, tho.

                                       Paul

#: 12673 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  10:08:07
Sb: #12479-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226

The last time I went to IBMOS2 was a few months ago. I have no need to visit
lately since we've dropped the OS/2 project. I was there quite a bit before
commercial release and that's where I got my favorable impression about the
people in charge.

                                       Paul

#: 12675 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  10:16:18
Sb: #12514-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

Yes, different directions and different experiences.  I too was appalled at
the Win SDK.  Like BI's OWL for C++ I never did get the whole shebang really
figured out.

Where my differences really lie with you is partly in customer satisfaction.
and ISV communications.  While MS hasn't been as accessible as, say, Borland
for me, it has been way ahead of IBM who seems to be on an entirely different
wavelength.  First, customer satisfaction: I have *never* visited a site that
bought any PS product (if the site's not in the clutches of an IBM mainframer)
where that site didn't feel like a sucker almost right after the purchase.
This includes fairly large sales.  When an IBM mainframer is the IS chief,
s/he blocks enough information from the users so they don't know they've been
hoodwinked.  But when a user's free to compare, they're always sorry they
bought IBM.

And they're on a dif wave from me. When I attended the rollout for the PS/2,
there was this IBM suit showing how the entire thing could be taken apart w/o
a screwdriver. The IBM mainframe crowd dutifully oohed and aaahed. I said 'who
cares? I already own a screwdriver. How well does it perform and where's the 5
inch drive?'. The suits all frowned. So I'm a bit dif from them and IBM goals,
I think.

                                        Paul

#: 12676 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  10:21:34
Sb: #12515-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

Yah, I hadn't been over there since the split in forum titles.  I don't see
how one can determine whether the excellence in the fora over at the OS/2
umbrella is due to IBM staffer's extra efforts or the change (if change there
be) in IBM itself.  What's to determine this?

I understand the organizational changes in IBM separating the PS line from the
OS line and also Akers' statement that each division stands or falls on its
own.  This sounds right. It in someways reminds one of the early Phil
Eastridge days in Boca. Look where that evenally ended up. And that's my
point. Boca got folded back in to Armonk when it started making big bucks.  If
OS/2 starts doing so, I think the oldsters at IBM will see it as a lever to
boost profitablity in the PS line and for the 'good' of IBM generally.

We won't know if IBM does a repeat until they do or don't.  So let's wait and
see.

                                     Paul

#: 12689 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  18:13:56
Sb: #12527-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

I don't disagree with anything you said; I was just indulging in a little
fantasy.  What I consider trivial PC use has exploded over the last four or
five years as the cost curve has spiraled down, and I think it has thus become
exponentially harder to displace DOS than it would have been circa 1987-88,
had the 386 software been ready (mature).

#: 12690 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  18:14:07
Sb: #12528-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

The strange thing about DIAL for me was that it worked (sort of; technically
it would function, but the usability was another story) for about three weeks.
Then I turned off the computer, went to visit my folks for the weekend, and
when I came back and powered up the system, DIAL told me the modem wasn't
there any more, even though Crosstalk had no problems at all. Tried different
modems, both internal and external, different async cards, etc., all to no
avail.  This all happened on a Compaq Deskpro/286, supposedly a paragon of IBM
compatibility (although once I looked at how the hardware was actually
implemented, I had my doubts; lots of things were done differently-enough that
I realized Compaq had lifted some pages out of the IBM sales manual on how to
lock-in their buyers to Compaq-only upgrades), and one of the systems
specifically endorsed by MS for development and DIAL usage.  I dropped the
whole DIAL service as a result, but was not offered or given a refund, and a
letter on the subject went unanswered. So my experience as a "small" user of
MS products was definitely contrary to that reported by Paul.  I suspect
neither of us has seen the full range of behaviours exhibited by MS toward
"small" users.

#: 12691 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  18:14:14
Sb: #12541-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X)

I keep hearing stories like that, and I certainly take you at your word, but
I've never encountered IBM reps that acted that way.  I *have* done the
converse, though; when we were getting totally inappropriate "assistance" from
an account team geared toward VM, when we needed MVS answers, I had a chat
with the Branch Manager.  Of course, he wouldn't admit that the changes in the
account team were at the direction of the customer; such decisions were
regarded then as purely internal to IBM.  However, our account team was
changed.  The SE wasn't fired, but he was replaced on our account.

Of course those were the "bad old days" when you actually got service from
your account team.  Now my only dealings with the local branch are limited to
an occasional PROFS note exchanged on IBMLink.

On balance, I like the "new" IBM better; but that's me as an individual.  At
work, the "old" IBM was a much more responsive company.

#: 12692 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  18:14:24
Sb: #12534-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X)

Without knowing to whom in IBM your client addressed their question, it's hard
for me to frame an appropriate response to your complaint.  (I don't work for
IBM, and it's hardly my job to defend it, anyway.)  However, in my experience
if IBM ever gives improper or wrong information to a client which is used as
the basis of a buying decision, and is later informed of the fact, the company
will allow you to return the merchandise and get a full refund.  Letters I
have written to the President and/or Chairman of IBM have always gotten prompt
attention and action from the responsible division, usually in addition to a
direct response from the head office, and have always resulted in my
(eventual) satisfaction. This is my experience as an individual, not as part
of my "day job." Any company has its share of poorly-informed and
poorly-trained individuals. Criticisms like yours do more good when
communicated to the powers that be (at any company, not just IBM), rather than
to those not in a position to correct the problems. Taking them to task in a
public forum can make you feel better, and generate some indirect pressure on
the company, but they may not be aware of the specifics that need changing if
you don't take the direct approach. My mother taught me that when you have a
problem with a company and don't get satisfaction at the "street" level, don't
waste time: go right to the top.



There are 2 Replies.

#: 12702 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  22:14:02
Sb: #12692-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

To cut down on all of the jaw jackin' the support request went to the proper
area in IBM. The result was just that they were just not interested in
anything other than their own hardware. It would be very difficult to
correct the situation at this time since the client is liquidating, any
letters of complaint wouldn't result in any immediate satification.

This attitude may be changing but they have already pissed off the client (a
paying customer). I can't see any way of justifing the behavior.

Darren

#: 12717 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  09:47:56
Sb: #12692-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

BTW, when ever I work on a street level I use a brick and stand around a
corner. I always get excellent results.<g>

Darren

#: 12693 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  18:14:30
Sb: #12492-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

ALR still sells MicroChannel as well, but they don't publicize the fact much
(at all).

#: 12697 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  18:58:10
Sb: #12467-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Raymond Chuang 72441,3652
To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X)

Will,

Boy, IBM better get their Service Packs out the door.

Raymond Chuang

#: 12774 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  04:18:50
Sb: #12489-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

John, uf ABIOS is 'packed up and shipped out of the way', does this mean it's
relocated to a different (virtual) address or just turned off?  If the latter
doesn't seem a whole lot of point in having it!

Andy.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12789 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  06:10:34
Sb: #12774-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Andy Champ 100064,2267

Andy,

ABIOS and DOS doesn't make a lot of sense, period (why have reentrant BIOS
under a non reentrant OS?) but to the exent that they are used by any app or
the OS, I beleive both memory managers trap on the reference and swap them
back in. Why do I think I don't want to trust this to work a 100% of the
time?<g>

John

#: 12775 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  04:18:53
Sb: #12513-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

Mercer, how do you reclaim the 64Kb without either relocating it to where DOS
apps can't use it or turning it off?

#: 12891 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  18:33:56
Sb: #12775-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: Andy Champ 100064,2267

ABIOS is not used under DOS, anyway, so it gets "turned off."  Not much point
in simply relocating it; since ABIOS isn't used under DOS, its loss is not
noticed.

#: 12776 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  04:18:58
Sb: #12510-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

You can't tell us from Apricot?  I always knew our corporate image needed some
work!

Andy.

#: 12777 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  04:19:03
Sb: #12437-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267
To: Ben Sano 72401,2736 (X)

>>Basicly, you try a given number (3 to 5 works about as well as any) of times
to delegate it to another processor, once it has been accepted by another
processor then that processor must finish the task, if you can't delegate it
you get to keep it.

I can see that'd be OK on CPU bound apps, but what about those that use a lot
of disk?  With the kind of net we're talking about - where disks are locally
connected to CPUs with a fast bus, and the LAN is comparitively slower -
remote disk access is a bottleneck and passing apps about could give problems.
This is where I thought it would get hard - evaluating the likely disk load of
an app., and to which drives it would occur, as well as the CPU and RAM
requirements, should really be scheduler inputs.

Imagine if you pushed your disk backup program to a remote CPU!

Andy.

#: 12779 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  04:19:16
Sb: #12511-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

I could agree with you that for specific tasks ASMP (AMP?)is wonderful.
Trouble is, it's a bit like putting Expansion Boxes on a 2-stroke motorbike -
the engine works wonderfully well under a particular workload, but anything
different, you're dead.  If you know what you're workload will be, fine, buy
ASMP.  If not, buy SMP.  Now the problem I have is working out what kind of
machine we ought to be designing to fit all our customer's requirements -
they're just a bit variable!

Andy.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12795 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  07:41:08
Sb: #12779-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Andy Champ 100064,2267

Andy,

>>Expansion Boxes on a 2-stroke motorbike<<

Hey if your expansion chamber makes it too peaky, you just get out your rotary
files and play with port timing a bit or change the reeds, no problem
 ;->

John

#: 12890 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  18:33:45
Sb: #12779-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: Andy Champ 100064,2267

I don't envy you your decision-making job, but is it truly a case of designing
"a" machine to fit all your customers' requirements?  Or a range of systems
with varying levels of function and capacity?  At what points in the business
case does SMP provide not only observable benefit to the customer but a
positive effect on the bottom line, compared to other (non-SMP) designs
capable of fulfilling your customers' requirements?

It's no secret that Intel is developing single-chip packages that integrate
multiple execution units and cache, with versions integrating video and
multiple FP engines to come.  I expect SMP to become pervasive, eventually;
not in the next few years, though.

#: 12874 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  16:40:00
Sb: #12428-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656
To: Paul Cassel 71250,563

>I sure know how I'd feel today if MS announced they're dropping Win and NT!

Yeah, I know what you mean, I'd be happy to finally see that crapy Windows
being history, and this MS ego driven NT disappear too.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12898 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  19:08:14
Sb: #12874-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345
To: Bill Lee 76366,656

Bill,

re: I'd be happy to finally see that crappy Windows being history, and this MS
ego driven NT disappear too.



  I objected to another member's making comments like this, and he got all
upset. Can't you see why it might be just a little annoying to have folks like
you come whizzing around here with this kind of trash?

  What's in it for you? What do you get out of it?

-- Jim F.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12913 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  21:06:43
Sb: #12898-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Scott R. McKee 76304,723
To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X)

Jim

The best way to handle someone like Bill Lee is to just ignore them. After
awhile, they generally just go away.

Scott

#: 13012 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  13:33:41
Sb: #12913-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Scott R. McKee 76304,723 (X)

Scott:

Likely you're right about ignoring people like Bill Lee and they'll go
away, but  you gotta wonder why they're so darn defensive on one hand
and offensive on the other.  Perhaps we'd be if we backed the loser.

                                  Paul

PS: in other words, how'd you like to be committed to OS/2 on this, the
eve of NT? It sure wouldn't do much for my temper.

#: 13011 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  13:31:38
Sb: #12898-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X)

Hi Jim:

This OS/2 fellas seem to be awfully defensive and quick to jump to insulting
or ad hominim arguments.  I'd feel the same way if I backed a lame horse in
the Kentucky Derby.

                                  Paul

#: 13262 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  10:17:08
Sb: #13011-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656
To: Paul Cassel 71250,563 (X)

>I'd feel the same way if I backed a lame horse in the Kentucky Derby.

<g> I don't think I should comment on this.  In any case, good luck to you.
peace.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13296 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  14:15:41
Sb: #13262-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Bill Lee 76366,656

Yes, Bill. A bit of peace with some measure of goodwill's been missing in this
thread lately.  Time for all of us to regain some proportion. So from me to
you: peace, good luck, and prosperity.

                                    Paul

#: 13261 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  10:17:04
Sb: #12898-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656
To: James Ferguson 71477,2345 (X)

>Can't you see why it might be just a little annoying to have folks like you
come whizzing around here with this kind of trash?


>  What's in it for you? What do you get out of it?

No Jim, whizzing around here, drop some trash and run is definitely not the
purpose of my attendance here.  I have been around since the sp

I alway thought this war thing is silly, and still do.  Maybe that was an
uncalled for strike back message, and a bit too strong, but by no

#: 13007 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  13:30:30
Sb: #12874-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Bill Lee 76366,656 (X)

??? >>MS ego driven NT>>

I see NT as the OS of the future.  What I was saying was only that I felt some
sympathy to those who adopted OS/2 early on, spent time developing for it, and
now see the future OS is NT, not it.  That's all. Now as I'm getting some info
on NetWare 4 I'm beginning to question whether it will be the competitor for
NT I thought it'd be.  I'm unsure.

Unless MS burps badly in NT's implementation you'll either be using is soon or
be in another business.

                                     Paul

#: 12875 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  16:40:03
Sb: #12466-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656
To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X)

 >>IBM ships Windows on its low-end PS/1s that ship with less than *8MB*
 >>memory.

>OK.  Sounds fair to me!  <g>

Too bad that IBM bashers would bend the story as IBM's lack of commitment to
OS/2 and make it sounds like the end of the world.

#: 12983 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  10:14:48
Sb: #12875-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Bill Lee 76366,656 (X)

>>Too bad that IBM bashers would bend the story as IBM's lack of commitment to
OS/2<<

I think the facts speak for themselves.  IBM makes a big deal about how OS/2
2.0 is better than DOS or Windows, and claims its minimum memory requirement
is 4MB.  IBM preinstalls Windows 3.1 on its PS/1s with less than 8MB of RAM.
Hardly the end of the world, but far from consistent.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13046 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  20:08:56
Sb: #12983-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205

>>I think the facts speak for themselves.  IBM makes a big deal about how
OS/2 2.0 is better than DOS or Windows, and claims its minimum memory
requirement is 4MB.  IBM preinstalls Windows 3.1 on its PS/1s with less than
8MB of RAM. Hardly the end of the world, but far from consistent.

Robert,

IBM says the minimum required for OS/2 is 4MB, but that the recommended is
6-8MB. The box should say this, but it doesn't (at least the last time I
looked).

Microsoft says that the minimum for Windows 3.1 is, what? 1 or 2MB I think.
Both companies state minimum requirements that are too low, IMHO. Both
products really need about 2x the minimum for good all-around performance.

Bruce

#: 12876 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  16:40:09
Sb: #12473-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

>When I called, as an individual, to order the WINOS231 beta, the call was
answered within 3 rings (it was the infamous IBM NDD) and the disks showed up
the next day. No charge.

No kidding!  And I'd never forget when I called them for the CSD update for
1.3 a few months ago, it arrived within 4 working hours! (well, actually I
called late afternoon, and it was in the in basket early next morning.)  Are
we a Big Blue shop? heck, I don't even have an IBM customer number, and the
biggest IBM box we have is a 4 year old 20MHz model 80.

I laugh at some of these Staged, full out, continuous, pointless IBM bashing
in this thread, gives me a pretty good idea where they're coming from.

Did you get the PDK CD also?  With what they provided on it for only $15 S&H,
I think the bad old days of less then perfect Developer support is history
with the "new" IBM!

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12895 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  18:53:22
Sb: #12876-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463
To: Bill Lee 76366,656

 >I laugh at some of these Staged, full out, continuous, pointless IBM bashing
 >in this thread, gives me a pretty good idea where they're coming from.

Gee, I wonder where you are comming from?  Are you, or do you plan to use NT?,
or did you just come over here to educate us?  BTW, I'm not trying to make you
feel unwelcome in any way - I just couldn't help but notice the string of
messages you posted, and their theme.

-Mark (will this thread ever die? - awful title)

#: 13263 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  10:17:15
Sb: #12895-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656
To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X)

>Are you, or do you plan to use NT?, or did you just come over here to educate
us?

The vendor for our mini went out of biz as of Aug 31st.  I believe we've
considered all possible options for it's replacement, and sorry to say, as of
this time, nowhere is NT on the list, due to it's timeframe, and what we saw
with the alpha release.  (we just don't think it will be ready for primetime
anytime soon.  Please, no hate mail on this, just our opinion on it.  And I do
understand the alpha is *not* for eval, but what else can we do today? I
believe the next beta drop may be here soon, but I doubted it would change
anything.)  Certainly I will be keeping an eye on it, who knows what the
future brings?

While it looks like OS/2 may be involved quite heavily, it will *not* be the
only solution for us.  You may not believe it, walking away from Windows
doesn't always means OS/2 only, and I'm not as blind as you think I am. <g>

Please, I wouldn't even dream about "educating" anyone, I don't think I'm
qualified to do so.  Please see response to JimF for my "excuse" of my
temporary loss of control.


>     BTW, I'm not trying to make you feel unwelcome in any way

No problem there, I'll still be lurking from time to time, even after this
interesting thread is over with, I promise.  Thanx.   Peace.

#: 12877 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  16:40:20
Sb: #12339-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656
To: Paul Cassel 71250,563

>I don't want to lock myself into a system that forces me to a certain brand
HW.

Are you talking about OS/400, VMS or something?

>Most of the PS/2 OS/2 adherents deny the OS works better on IBM HW. It's
refreshing to hear from one who not only admits it, but revels in it.

Let's see, think I said "If I'm not mistaken, OS/2 is taking advantage of MCA
today already" vs your comment about they bending it in someway in the future,
so what am I "admitting" to?

So NT will take advantage of multi-processor systems, yet it'll run on a
sinlge Intel 386-16 PC, any problem with that?  Do you want the same
performance out of them?

Call foul when you find out they're bending OS/2 to run better on their own
ISA machines, and crippling it intentionally for other ISA boxes.

Bill.

Responding with Golden Commpass, OS/2, Compaq (The same machine that I wasted
half a day to load NT onto, but wouldn't even work!)

#: 12984 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  10:19:29
Sb: #12877-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Bill Lee 76366,656 (X)

Bill, if you don't like NT and wish it would go away, why are you wasting your
time in this forum?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13015 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  13:41:38
Sb: #12984-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205

A lot of people lurk around here hoping we'll drop something about NT they can
use in their anti-NT diatribes. To wit: Cassel reports in the NT forum that
he's having trouble running (fill it in) with NT. Stuff like that.  It's a
cheap tactic to bend the truth, but if you backed OS/2, what else have you got
<g>?

                                           Paul

#: 13013 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  13:39:08
Sb: #12877-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Paul Cassel 71250,563
To: Bill Lee 76366,656 (X)

Bill:

My concern is less whether OS/2 today is bent toward working with PS/2's and
more that I feel it will be (for the corporate good) if it does become a
generic success.  This isn't a question about and for today, but rather about
and concerning should I, an ISV, take the chance that IBM will do this? I
think they will and therefore won't bother to develop for this, the
potentially closed system of the future.

IBM might be sincere in their current attempts to get OS/2 to run on non-Blue
hardware. But let's say they do succeed, and in doing so earn significant
market share. What'll they do next? Close it of course.  That has been the
company way for as long as it's been a computer company with any hint of
potential competition.

The bleatings of the IBM's reformed sheep notwithstanding, I say this is one
company that won't change - or at least I'm not betting *MY* company's future
on it doing so.

                                       Paul

#: 12878 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  16:40:29
Sb: #12343-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

  <<what they touted it should do, a better multi-tasking machine, which DOS
and Win(yuck) couldn't take advantage of.>>

>I have seen many of these anti-windows statements.  Just out of curiosity,
what is it that you don't like?

I think what I said was something about OS/2's ability as a multi-tasking OS
taking advantage of MCA, and Win(yuck), which is on top of DOS, doesn't
utilize.  I didn't think that would sound too anti-windows.

I believe most of the anti-win stuff pops up after folks have experienced with
a superior alternative, at this time is OS/2. Looks back to the bad UAE/GPF
experiences, the not so hot multi-tasking capabilities, which was okay and the
way of life back then, but not to be taken for a sucker anymore, is speaking
out now.

Really Bob, do you see more anti-win stuff then anti-OS/2 materials?



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12906 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  20:10:43
Sb: #12878-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Bill Lee 76366,656

RE: anti-win vs anti-os2

Interesting question that you pose.  Given the opportunity to run, my guess is
that many comments here are being made by those running both OS2 and NT, so a
comparison is natural but most is not anti-OS2 in an inflammatory sense.  I
have never seen an OS2 (yuch) statement here.  Granted there are some here
(myself included) who have had their share of hassle with OS2; e.g., can
multi-task but cannot use OLE or clipboard (sort of useless to me).  BUT,
nowhere here have I criticised OS2; have beat upon IBM but what the heck, so
is the stock market <bg>.  I do not use many dos applications but do use many
graphic applications in windows.  'nuff said.  If you want to blast windows
and MS, this is perhaps not the best place to carry out your game plan. <bg>
If you are trying to start some nasty mail to & fro, then get prepared.

                               bob

#: 13264 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  10:17:21
Sb: #12906-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bill Lee 76366,656
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

>If you want to blast windows and MS, this is perhaps not the best place to
carry out your game plan. <bg>  If you are trying to start some nasty mail to
& fro, then get prepared.

No no no, not my intension here at all, honest, please see my response to JimF
for my lame excuse for the outburst, I certainly didn't expect others would be
offended by it.

I normally do my blasting in front of live people, I think it's more effective
that way.<g>  Don't be too disappointed, but I have no game plan here at all.

No thanx, I'm not into hate mails.  I don't want to go down in history being
compared to Brain Bu... well, forgot what's his name. <g>




There is 1 Reply.

#: 13275 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  11:34:22
Sb: #13264-More bilge from Willy F.
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Bill Lee 76366,656

Bill:

I was responding to what appeared to be the tenor of your message, but will
take your explanation to heart.  Some people like to sort of sneak in, drop a
bomb or two & then sneak out.  I answered one person's question about IBM vs
Ms in what I thought was a reasonable, albeit biased toward my thinking of
course, way. No reply! the idiot returned and posted the same GD question
several weeks later.  We don't need this.  I meant nothing nasty or personal
in my remarks, but as my dear old dad used to say, "when you walk in the
pumpkin fields and look a tad suspicious, you're asking for an ass full of
buckshot!" <VBG>

                               bob

#: 13303 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  15:16:44
Sb: Setup of NT
Fm: Jimmy Truong 75430,345
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267

Hi, Does anyone know what is wrong when NT doesnot boot with low memory error
message?  I installed DOS2NT to 386DX with 16 MB.  Why did it not have enough
memory? Thanks, Jimmy

#: 12748 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  19:39:33
Sb: Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Barry Knapp 71101,2140
To: all

I am not a developer and am not interested in the Windows NT Beta program.
But I am looking to purchase a new 486-based computer soon, and would like to
know what is the minimum recommended hardware configuration for Windows NT.
Is a 486DX running on the ISA bus acceptable?  Is the ISA bus okay if
supplemented with a couple of
 the new VESA local bus slots?  Or is either the EISA bus or the MicroChannel
bus considered essential?

If anyone can answer this question, thank you!

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12808 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  09:56:41
Sb: #12748-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Barry Knapp 71101,2140

I'd recommend a 486DX/33 with 16MB of RAM and a 200MB hard disk as a
reasonable minimum platform for NT, OS/2, or x86-based Unix. You could try to
get by with only 8MB RAM, but going all the way to 16 only costs an extra
$200.  Given the modest price difference between a 486DX/33 and a 486DX2/50 or
DX/50, the faster chips are probably a better deal.  I wouldn't buy a
486DX2/66 quite yet, those systems are still a bit too new for my conservative
taste.  I would look for a system with a 120-pin P5 upgrade socket.

ISA bus is fine.  The bus is seldom a bottleneck, and there's still no local
bus standard so anything you buy today will almost certainly be an obsolete
orphan in a year or so.  EISA is okay, but local bus is probably going to kill
it.  MCA is a waste of money unless you're locked into IBM's vision of
computing, in which case it's still a waste of money but at least you'll have
someone to blame.

#: 12936 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  04:38:47
Sb: #12808-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205

PMJI, but did you see the announcement of the Pentium chip this AM? Intel's
CEO ... Grove was on the tube on the Business Day version of CNN and he had
one there announcing the name. I guess P5 was deemed as legally unprotectable
as xxx86 is and thus they came up with a specific trade name for the critter.
It was a gold color which I hope has nothing to do with the perceived value
and thus the street price for the thing.

Just some Trivia..

#: 13056 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  21:30:21
Sb: #12808-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Barry Knapp 71101,2140
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205

Bob,

Thanks very much for your suggestions.  You pretty much echoed what I had
concluded myself, except that I think the local bus option is one which should
probably be seriously considered.  As I understand it, there is a standard,
the VESA "VL-bus", which a couple of motherboard vendors are already
producing.  This bus--as I understand it--is 32 bits wide and runs at 33 MHz,
so will not be available on the 50 MHz motherboards.  I expect to see a deluge
of ads for ISA machines with 2 or 3 VL-bus slots, in the near future.

Barry

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13091 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  07:05:23
Sb: #13056-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Barry Knapp 71101,2140

Barry:

Actually VESA-like slots are available on dx50 motherboards (micronics for
example).  these slots are basically video only in my opinion.  When intel and
a few others bring out the PCI standard, then harddrive bus cards will be
available and very effective.  All should show about the time of spring comdex
(just guessing here <bg>).

                       bob

#: 13173 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  18:31:54
Sb: #13091-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob,

You mention Micronics like you are very familier, I have a Micronics EISA2
486dx33, am I restricted to Micronics proprietry video boards in the local bus
slot, do you know?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13196 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  20:48:32
Sb: #13173-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634 (X)

The micronics board was built pre-Vesa; that is, the local slot does not
exactly meet VESA specs.  As such, I would use a micronics local video card. At
least give them a ring & see what your options are.

                               bob

#: 13126 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  10:32:41
Sb: #13056-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Barry Knapp 71101,2140

The problem is that there are too many contending and incompatible local bus
would-be standards.  A lot of companies are doing VESA VL-bus boards, but Intel
dropped out of that group and proposed its own standard, which is incompatible
with VL-bus (and also, since it does not define the actual connectors,
incomplete).  There's at least one more incompatible local bus currently
shipping.

#: 13298 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  14:42:54
Sb: #12808-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Brad Hines 76520,3314
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205

The VESA VL-Bus local bus standard is finalized and systems are now shipping
that use this bus (e.g. Gateway).  Many companies (e.g. ATI) are now or will
soon be shipping products for VL-Bus.

The Intel PCI local-bus standard is not finalized, and products are not
expected for a year or so.  Some feel that this is the technically superior
local bus (in that VL-bus is optimized for video, but PCI is more
general-purpose), but it is going to lag VL-Bus in the market by a year, so
VL-Bus may dominate.

I think most people expect VL-Bus to be with us for a few years, at least.
There's a detailed article on this in a recent issue of Byte, if anyone wants
more in-depth coverage.

--Brad

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13317 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  18:35:49
Sb: #13298-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Brad Hines 76520,3314 (X)

Brad:

You are correct about VESA being in advance of the PCI architecture but the
latter will make a major differnce in the way a harddrive and a chip talk
together. maybe a year but maybe less <bg>.

                                       bob

#: 12918 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  21:55:53
Sb: #12748-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: Barry Knapp 71101,2140

Berry,

I'd say that the straight ISA bus would work just fine for you if you arn't
doing anything super heavy. The minimum hardware configuration hsn't been
set yet (I could be wrong) but I'd say get as big a hard drive and as much
memory as you pocket can afford. I can't say much about the local bus stuff
just yet.

Darren

#: 13054 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  21:23:33
Sb: #12918-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Barry Knapp 71101,2140
To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403

Darren, thanks very much for your help.  I'll check in here occasionally to
see how Windows NT is coming along, but I guess it'll be at least six months
before we (the general public) will see it in the stores.

Barry

#: 13188 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  20:29:10
Sb: #13054-Min h/w config for NT?
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: Barry Knapp 71101,2140

Happy to help out. Stick around and keep an open mind about your options.
Hopefully we will see street legal NT before six months.

Darren

#: 12750 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  20:20:22
Sb: PC Week - Speak Out
Fm: Brian Proffit [PCW Labs] 75300,1466
To: Sysop (X)

As you may have noticed, I began a new column in PC Week this week called
Speak Out.  It is intended to be devoted to our Corporate Lab Partners and
readers -- NOT vendors.  Nevertheless, it has been suggested that there is a
pro-Windows/anti-OS/2 bias in the publication.  To allow full discussion of
this topic, I am prepared to offer both IBM and Microsoft the opportunity to
write one column to present their position.  The column will be edited only
for size, grammar, clarity, etc.  The writing will not be censored, other than
natural things such as offensive language.  The participant will have full
opportunity to approve the final text before it is published.  The column
should be approximately 650 words in length.

If Microsoft would like to participate, please select the appropriate author
and have them contact me.

#: 12899 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  19:09:06
Sb: #12750-PC Week - Speak Out
Fm: Steve Fait [Microsoft] 75300,3143
To: Brian Proffit [PCW Labs] 75300,1466 (X)

Hi Brian,

I have passed this on to the appropriate parties here at Microsoft and they
will be in touch with you if they are interested in doing this. Thanks,

   steve

#: 13328 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  23:17:37
Sb: #12750-PC Week - Speak Out
Fm: Brian Moura 76702,1337
To: Brian Proffit [PCW Labs] 75300,1466


A pro-Windows bias in PC Week?  The folks who ran Will Zachmann's column for
years?  That's pretty amusing......

As far as I can see, PC Week has seemed pretty impartial on this one.

#: 12574 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  10:39:11
Sb: NT vs OS/2
Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322
To: Will Zachmann [CANOPUS] 76004,3657 (X)

Will,

I guess we will agree to disagree.  However, I specialize in
internationalization & communications.  In both areas I see NT as the better
and more cost effective choice.  For a long time I felt that Win was little
more than a toy but I have come around.

Look at the impact of Unicode.  Currently OS/2 is selling better in Europe
than here.  But even with localize versions of the system, the international
business community needs polylingual systems.  I feel that many businesses
will buy NT even if it is over kill just to get Unicode support.  Unicode is
also a boon to software developers who can develop a single product that is
easy to localize and can be validated on a single system.  Remember that most
software sales are overseas.

The corporate users is not only looking for the desktop as you mentioned but
they are looking for a something that will also run the companies standard
applications on all of the 286 systems that they have not fully depreciated.
This is especially true in lucrative markets like Japan.

The corporations also need large servers.  They need more than OS/2 will offer
but they do not like the AIX/UNIX environment.  For now many of them are
buying AS/400 systems.  I see NT as a product that is more targeted to the
UNIX-AS/400 market than as an OS/2 replacement.  The set of different Win
platforms give the user a scalable family of systems that can run the same
software.

[More]







There are 2 Replies.

#: 12575 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  10:39:23
Sb: #12574-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 (X)

[Continued]

OS/2 will provide a better solution for the midrange user, but can IBM
convince the users to work in a very different environment just for those
users?

The other problem is Win32s.  Will OS/2 support the faster Windows
applications?  You are right in that companies like Lotus are producing OS/2
apps that are not just ports of Win code but exploit the OS/2 advantages.  I
expect the see a number of them by the 1st Q 1993.  But I still do not see a
lot of commercial software commitments for OS/2 products.

I think that the key to OS/2 success is for IBM to convince developers that
they should develop for the OS/2 environment.  I think that IBM's policy of
being closed mouthed about the future of OS/2 is telling developers that 1)
IBM is being secretive, 2) They IBM has no idea where it is going, or 3) They
don't what to let the bad news out.  Neither of these options is very
comforting.

I think that both MS & IBM are rapidly changing there attitude as support of
developers.  But I think that if IBM wants to succeed that it will have to
open up more and let us know what is going on.

Carl

#: 13209 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  01:57:25
Sb: #12575-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Hans Kamutzki 100015,3007
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322

Carl,

>>The other problem is Win32s.
on a IBM technical seminar in germany in september there was something like a
statement (not an announcemnet I think) that OS/2 2.o will implement a Win32s
(subset?) support in OS/2-win.
hka

#: 12597 S2/General Discussion
    16-Oct-92  13:04:56
Sb: #12574-NT vs OS/2
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 (X)

Carl,

No doubt that UNICODE is important, but before a wide range of developers use
it, it'll have to be supported in the 'other' Windows.

John

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12694 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  18:14:35
Sb: #12597-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

One aspect of Unicode (or any multibyte character set) that seems to get short
shrift in most public discussions to which I've been privy is the doubling or
tripling of virtual memory required to use it. There are still some niggling
little implementation details and standards work that remains to be done on
Unicode, although most of the major items have been dealt with. IMHO, this is
yet another bleeding edge technology that will probably take another three or
four years to ripen into something easily digestible.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12744 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  18:26:42
Sb: #12694-NT vs OS/2
Fm: John Hall 70750,2341
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

A straight ASCII string translated into UNICODE will double in size.  Now I
understand that string storeage/manipulation forms a higher percentage of most
programs than many people understand, but I fail to see how UNICODE will
double virtual memory requirements, let alone tripple them.

If you are useing DBCS, the delta increase is smaller for string storeage and
may be offset by simpler/smaller code to deal with the strings.

#: 12892 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  18:34:10
Sb: #12744-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: John Hall 70750,2341 (X)

First, according to the presentations I've seen, Unicode is not *only* a
sixteen-bit code.  My understanding is that Unicode was designed to accomodate
"wide" multi-byte characters, with three- and four-byte code requirements
already defined or in the process of being defined.  To some, and for very
good reasons, two bytes is not enough address space.

OK; to be more specific, to the extent that a program manipulates text data
using Unicode, the amount of storage required to hold those data will vary in
direct proportion to the size of the character, guaranteed at this time to be
a minimum of double the amount of storage required when using ASCII.  Of
course, there will also be a speed hit and potentially greater paging demands.
Single users probably won't notice, though.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12893 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  18:45:56
Sb: #12892-NT vs OS/2
Fm: John Hall 70750,2341
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

I have only seen UNICODE mentioned as 16bit -- thats 32K characters.

As for a speed hit -- not compared to DBCS.  Unicode is faster than DBCS
because you don't have to test a char to see if it is a char the first byte of
a two byte char.

#: 13031 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  17:21:31
Sb: #12893-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: John Hall 70750,2341 (X)

See my reply to msg 13008 from Bruce Ramsey, about multi-byte Unicode.

No, the speed hit was not envisioned against another 16-bit character, but
against 8-bit ASCII, or any other 8-bit code.  Like I said, most users won't
notice the hit involved in manipulating/moving twice as much data, but in some
areas it may be quite noticeable.

#: 13008 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  13:30:58
Sb: #12892-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 (X)

Hi Mercer - With all due respect to whoever was presenting, I
  checked with the unicode gurus here, and there will be no 3&4
  byte unicode characters.  That is essential to the whole unicode
  design.  Notice that there are currently ~35K characters (code
  points) assigned.  That means there are still ~29k free for
  future expansion, which is expected to fullfill all future
  needs.  The present known languages of the world are already
  covered in the current ~35K.  (2^16 = 64k, and there is no
  parity bit)

Someone might have been thinking about compatibility with the OS/2
  Double Byte Character Set, or Multi Byte Character Set.
  Apparently the Japanese and Chinese versions of Windows NT may
  provide compatibilities with these other standards which do
  allow 3 & 4 byte characters

Another posibility is that someone was thinking of TWO unicode
  characters, which taken together form one 'glyph' I.e.  'A'
  followed by umlaut.  This could be misconstrued as a 4 byte
  character, but it is not

>> ...To some, and for very good reasons, two bytes is not enough
  address space...

The majority of those involved in the unicode effort (~95% from
  the info I have) believe that unicode does a good job
  representing the known languages of the world in the currently
  allocated ~35K characters

The ones who disagree don't agree that unicode does a good
  _enough_ job of representing some of the subtle cultural nuances
  of their character set.  Is this the sort of objection you were
  referring to, or did you mean something else?

            Side note to interested forum readers:  There is a two
              volume unicode reference set from Addison Wesley
              that can be ordered from any bookstore.  See page 17
              of volume 2 for an example of how unicode uses
              multiple unicode characters to represent a character
              in some far eastern languages

I agree with you that it will take some time for unicode to be
  fully utilized within the industry.  On the other hand, Windows

[More]

There are 3 Replies.

#: 13009 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  13:31:05
Sb: #13008-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742
To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 (X)

[Continued]

  NT itself uses unicode internally to represent/manipulate
  strings, so with the October release of Windows NT, people have
  in Windows NT itself an example of unicode software

However, since we only have the unicode-only version of Windows
  NT, there is no ASCII-only version people could use to compare
  speed, virutal memory, etc characteristics of unicode versus
  ASCII.  So, it would be interesting to know if an ASCII-only
  version of Windows NT took half the virtual memory or less than
  the unicode version, but unfortunately we won't be able to
  measure that.  Perhaps in the future this can be done with some
  apps

But comparisons like this will be difficult, because to be fair in
  such a comparison, DBCS and other multi-byte versions of
  whatever software were to be compared should also be on the
  chart.  And finding an OS that supports unicode and ASCII and
  DBCS and other multi-byte schemes may take a while <g>

Bruce

#: 13032 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  17:21:44
Sb: #13008-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 (X)

First, thanks for your reply, Bruce.  It was certainly informative.  Anyway,
the presenter told us that the ISO Unicode standard that was approved in May
1992 actually incorporated two specifications, one of which is 16-bit Unicode
(presumably the Unicode implemented by MS), and the other is a multi-byte spec
(based on a previous ISO draft, I believe), which had to be added to garner
some required support for the standard.  From the presentation, I got the idea
that both specs qualify for the Unicode label.  Perhaps I misheard (likely) or
he was wrong (less likely; he is Share's representative to both the ANSI and
ISO committees).  I hope I haven't trashed the foils; if so, I'll have to wait
to refresh my memory until I get the proceedings microfiche in a month or two.

However, whether Unicode expands to more than 16 bits is a side issue to my
original point, which is that short shrift is usually given to the downside
aspects of multi-byte character sets. You're right; most users will probably
have only their subjective impressions about any speed hit involved in moving
or manipulating twice as much data, rather than definitive comparison test
results.  Most people won't even notice a hit, except that text data will
consume twice the space.   But users whose tasks perform lots of I/O or other
operations on text data will probably notice the difference as compared with
single-byte operation.

#: 13140 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  12:21:29
Sb: #13032-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150 (X)

Hi Mercer - When you get the proceedings, if you could please send
  me the reference, or post it here, I would appreciate it.  I'm
  always looking to learn more, and given the source from whom you
  heard about >2byte unicode, it does sound like I have some more
  to learn :)

I think you're right, compared to single-byte software most users
  won't see the hit.  I also didn't/don't mean to ignore your
  original point:  there is a price for using two bytes instead of
  one.  Users of existing multi-byte systems have already paid
  that price, so users of existing multi-byte systems that convert
  to unicode won't pay an additional price.  They may even
  benefit, if their existing system uses more than 2 bytes, or if
  their existing system has to do checks to see which characters
  are multi-byte characters

Bruce



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13171 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  18:13:16
Sb: #13140-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 (X)

The proceedings haven't shown yet, but I found some prior references to what I
was remembering, and my sloppy terminology has got the better of me in my
earlier messages.  Here's what I found:  In a letter to the Share membership
dated 10 June 1992, Edwin Hart, Share's representative to ANSI X3L2, reports on
the "Status of the ISO/IEC 10646-1 Universal Multi-Octet Coded Character Set
(UCS)" among other things.  ISO 10646-1 Draft International Standard-2 (DIS-2)
was approved as an international standard by the ballot that ended on 1 June
1992.  The approval was made possible by a merger between ISO 10646-1 and
Unicode in which Unicode (essentially, but not completely, without change)
becomes one of two ISO Universal Coded Character Sets (UCS).  UCS-2, also known
as the Base Multilingual Plane, is the two-byte ISO character set incorporating
Unicode.  However, ISO 10646-1 also specifies UCS-4, the four-byte form of the
character set.  From foils used by Mr. Hart in an earlier presentation to the
membership, I am given to understand that as a result of the merger, Unicode
1.1 (and beyond) will "fully align" with ISO 10646-1; i.e., that the Unicode
Consortium will modify the Unicode spec to make it conform to the UCS-2 spec
(at the least) of ISO 10646-1.

Since the Unicode gurus at MS seem adamant about only 16-bit support, I think
I'm hearing you say that MS is not going to support ISO 10646-1 (at least, not
all of it).  If that's so, here's some food for thought:  neither ISO 10646-1
DIS-1 nor Unicode, standing alone, were able to win the status of a de jure
international standard; it took the merger of the two in DIS-2 in order to meet
enough of the objections of the various countries (and the private interests
represented on their national committees) so that the standard could be
approved.  The four-byte code is critically necessary to certain groups. Why
not support the ISO standard?  I had assumed that MS would do so.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13205 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  23:24:41
Sb: #13171-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

Mercer,

The four byte code is more than any one will use.  The three byte
implementations are mostly designed to include lots of dead and obscure
languages like Mayan.  I doubt that we will see more than 16 bit (Unicode)
implementations in the commercial world.

Yes the three byte or multi-plane implementation might be used to some types of
literary publishing.  For example Japanese has about 50,000 Kanji but most
communication never exceeds a couple of thousand.

Carl

#: 13319 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  19:41:05
Sb: #13205-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Mercer Harz 70431,150
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322

Carl, 8-bit ASCII is sufficient to most purposes -- for me, today.  The 16-bit
Unicode will undoubtedly handle lots of cases, but it is not sufficient to the
needs of many.  German scholars unsuccessfully tried to get 2,000 additional
accented Latin characters coded in UCS-2 last year. Though they lost that
round, the issue is not dead and serves to point out that space in the 16-bit
character plane has already become a precious commodity, a limit that will
become more, not less, apparent over time.

Major computer hardware and software companies participated actively in the
ISO standardization process, and are committed to delivering ISO-compliant
products (many governments set ISO compliance requirements).  I think it's
inevitable that NT (and OS/2, AIX, Taligent, **ix, NextStep, Solaris, MVS,
VMS, etc. ad infinitum), and application development and supporting products
(compilers, tools, runtimes, DLLs, etc.), will need to support the full ISO
standard, both UCS-2 and UCS-4.  Sooner or later.

Nobody was going to need anything faster than a 286/386/486 either.  Remember?

#: 13310 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  17:25:25
Sb: #13171-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742
To: Mercer Harz 70431,150

Hi Mercer - Thanks for an info-filled response!  As I indicated,
  I'm not a unicode guru, so I passed the info on to the unicode
  folks at MS (one of whom was a central participant in the merger
  between Unicode and ISO 10646), and got back still more info
  (see below), which hopefully will clarify things still further

Bruce


In 1992 the working goup SC2\WG2 of ISO IEC\JTC1 accepted a new
  standard ISO 10646 which provides for 16 bit and 31 bit
  characters in a way that the 16 bit characters are numerically
  equal to the 31 bit characters.  (The 32nd bit is reserved)

Over the course of 1991, ISO and Unicode cooperated in having the
  ISO 10646 16-bit subset, called UCS-2 or Basic Multilingual
  Plane, merged with the Unicode Standard then about to be
  published

The merged 16-bit code space followed Unicode's code layout, but
  with additional characters added from prior drafts of 10646 and
  additional requests by member organizations of ISO

In a few cases, most of them already documented in Unicode
  Standard Version 1.0 vols I and II, ISO 10646 will differ from
  Unicode Version 1.0.  The Unicode Consortium is is publishing a
  complete set of these "Errata" as Unicode Version 1.01.  This
  will make Unicode a proper subset of ISO 10646.  (Microsoft will
  support Unicode 1.01, in a manner that satisfies the Conformance
  clause in the Unicode Standard)

The ISO standard document is in final editing, to reflect about
  5,500 characters added beyond Unicode 1.0 (Most of them Korean
  Hangul).  Unicode's upcoming Version 1.1 will track these
  additions, and fulfill the promise of a complete merger between
  Uniicode and ISO 10646's Basic Multilingual Plane (UCS-2)

The difference between UCS-4 (the 31 bit form) and UCS-2 is at
  this point only the width of the character, as there are NO
  character codes assigned that are not in the 16-bit UCS-2
  subset

Either form is equivalent as far as ISO standards conformance is
  concerned.  None of the major computer and software companies
  that form the Unicode consortium has expressed a desire or

[More]

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13311 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  17:25:34
Sb: #13310-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742
To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 (X)

[Continued]

  requirement to support a 4 byte character set.  Several of these
  companies have have already announced upcoming products which
  support the merged 16-bit standard, as have many non-member
  companies

The world is ready for a 16-bit Universal Character Set, and both
  ISO and Unicode did the right thing by merging their widely
  different approaches into a common standard.  Having a single
  standard, which is both de-jure and de-facto is the key to
  success

The Unicode Standard Version 1.0, vols.  I and II can be obtained
  in good computer bookstores or through Addison Wesley or from
  the Consortium

The Unicode Standard Version 1.01 can be obtained directly from
  the Unicode Consortium at

  Unicode Inc.
  1965 Charleston Road
  Mountain View, CA 94043

  (415)-961-4189
  (415)-966-1637 FAX

  [e-mail]

#: 13340 S2/General Discussion
    23-Oct-92  04:58:03
Sb: #13140-NT vs OS/2
Fm: Pete Fisher 76506,3134
To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742


Bruce,

- excuse me for jumping in as I scan thru the WINNT messages I grabbed via
TAPCIS, but I'm assuming you're with Microsoft and can maybe help me by
answering a question or two.

Altho I'm an amateur when it comes to development, I bought the pre-release
WIN NT CD and have a lot of Windows 3.1 applications and development tools. I
use a Compaq 386/20 with DOS 5.0, Win 3.1, QEMM 6.01, and Stacker 2.0. The
largest un-unsed area on my physical, non-stacked disks (aside from dual
removable Bernoulli cartridges) is about 2 - 2.5 MEG on C: (where my DOS boot
sector resides) and 1.5 or so on D:, which is the second 60 MEG hard drive
unit in my box and almost totally devoted to a stacked volume. I recently
bought an NEC CDR-74, external CD-ROM drive.

I ordered the pre-release NT out of curiosity and to test out the usability of
my new CD-ROM unit; I didn't realize NT was a full-fledged operating system,
and I'm confused about the installation requirements. What do I do to create a
second boot sector, and can I do it with such limited unstacked hard disk
space? Is there a way to leave the vast majority of NT running from the CD and
install a minimum of files top hard disk? Should I wait for the next
"pre-release" - ? I use a broad array of THE MOST RECENT VERSIONS of MS &
other Windows software; should I expect to be able to run 'em under NT, and
what would be the advantages... aside from satisfying a little curiosity?
             thanks,       Pete

#: 13093 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  07:06:25
Sb: #13008-NT vs OS/2
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742

Bruce,

>>Another posibility is that someone was thinking of TWO unicode
  characters, which taken together form one 'glyph' I.e.  'A'
  followed by umlaut.  This could be misconstrued as a 4 byte
  character, but it is not<<

This may be technically correct, but putting on my 'rubber meets the road hat'
it is a 4 byte character. It would be treated as a single character by the
user. Or even as a technical point, it would be displayed in one character
cell.

John

#: 12963 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  08:50:15
Sb: Ati vs ???
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246

Bob,

I was looking in PC Week magazine. Maybe you should be looking at the cards
from Numner Nine. The #9GXe. It has from 1 to 2 Mb Vram and 1 Mb DRAM. And it
offers 37.7 million WinMarks.

Art

#: 12977 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  09:55:29
Sb: #12963-Ati vs ???
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

I know the card. Also hits the old bank account big time <bg>.  Thought about
it actually.

                                       bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12988 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  10:37:10
Sb: #12977-Ati vs ???
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob,

<<I know the card. Also hits the old bank account big time <bg>.  Thought
about it actually.>>

What I saw was that the #9 was $499 and the ATI was $599.

Art

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13019 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  15:00:43
Sb: #12988-Ati vs ???
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Big trouble here. maybe i should look again <bg>.

                               bob

#: 13039 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  19:36:13
Sb: #12963-Ati vs ???
Fm: Waldemar Kowalski 70544,52
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art -

I'm not familiar with this particular card, and don't get PC Week.  Is this
generally an SVGA unit?  What is the maximum resolution/colors/scan?  How well
did it perform under DOS?  Similar performance hit to the S3 units?

Sorry to grill you here, but enquiring minds want to know. :-)

Thanks - wally

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13088 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  06:24:27
Sb: #13039-Ati vs ???
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Waldemar Kowalski 70544,52

Wally:

Video cards are getting to be pretty wild in a lot of ways.  The crest of
popularity of the S3 chip I think is waining.  They are awful in dos and have
a lot of hardware compatibility problems (know this first hand). Other
alternatives are available and relatively inexpensive.  For a long while I was
using the galaxy 2000 because of 32K colors at 800.  Just got too slow. The
leading contenders right now are ATI (if they can ever put together decent
drivers) and the TI chip based systems.  the card Art is talking about has
gotten very good reviews but I thought it was over $1000.  Just to show you
how strange things are, when I put in teh ATI graphics ultra (really cheap
right now), the only problem that I thought I had was with powerpoint.  Not
true. Could not run sytos + which really irritated the hell out of me.  Turns
out that it has to be in text mode & not graphics.  Moral here: we have to be
careful of complex interactions between systems & video cards.  This is
critical to me since today I am collapsing 3 harddrives onto a 1.1 gigabyte
drive.  Not the time for inability to see my premier tape backup system. <bg>

                               bob

#: 13131 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  11:05:28
Sb: #13088-Ati vs ???
Fm: Wim Bonner 72561,3135
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

I'm running Sytos+ on a machine with an ATI Ultra (1 meg) and it runs in
graphics mode.  Don't know what else may be different though.

Wim

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13197 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  20:48:39
Sb: #13131-Ati vs ???
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Wim Bonner 72561,3135

Funny thing.  Am now running total scsi & sytos + works fine.  EMM386 does not.
Oh well, from one problem to another <bg>.

Thanks for the info.

                               bob

#: 13139 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  12:17:12
Sb: #13088-Ati vs ???
Fm: Michael Kerpan 70302,301
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

What drivers are you using with yout ATI Graphics Ultra? On the ATITECH forum,
ATI said that it would not release NT drivers until NT was in general release.
(Unless they were only referring to the new Graphics Pro, but I dont think so.

There are 2 Replies.

#: 13191 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  20:33:38
Sb: #13139-Ati vs ???
Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514
To: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 (X)

Michael:

I think MS has committed to supporting ATI cards in the general release.  Of
course the drivers that ATI writes will be faster.
I don't expect ATI to write their NT drivers from scratch, they
will take Microsoft's final code and modify it to support their
cards special features/enhancements.

Carlen

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13195 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  20:47:54
Sb: #13191-Ati vs ???
Fm: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344
To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514

Looks like the ATI cards will not be supported in the October release :-<

They just posted the October hardware list.

Issie

#: 13198 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  20:48:46
Sb: #13139-Ati vs ???
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 (X)

I am using drivers downloaded from microsoft and dated mid-summer (june or july
-- don't remember which <bg>).

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13229 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  05:05:36
Sb: #13198-Ati vs ???
Fm: Michael Kerpan 70302,301
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Thanks for the info. I hope to be getting both a new system with the VLB
version of the ATI Graphics Pro and the 2nd release of the NT PDK in the next
couple of weeks. I suppose I'm in for lots of configuration "fun".

#: 13265 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  10:47:15
Sb: #13229-Ati vs ???
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Michael Kerpan 70302,301 (X)

Either "fun" or great anxiety <bg>.  Good luck!
                              bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13345 S2/General Discussion
    23-Oct-92  05:55:15
Sb: #13265-Ati vs ???
Fm: Michael Kerpan 70302,301
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246

Oh well, I wont see either product for 2 or 3 weeks and I get an extra hour of
sleep this weekend. I should be ready(?)

#: 12652 S2/General Discussion
    17-Oct-92  01:48:41
Sb: Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624
To: All

I'd like to ask a few questions to anyone who can answer:

Can anyone give me a fairly precise comparison of WinNT vs. OS/2 for the
average end-user? What are the HW requirements? What can/will WinNT do that
OS/2 cannot and what can/will OS/2 do that WinNT cannot?

I've heard lots of rumors:  WinNT will require 100 Mb of disk space and 16 Mb
of Ram, WinNT will require 55 Mb of disk space and 8 Mb of RAM...
...WinNT will only run the top 100 Dos and Windows apps.... etc, etc.
What is the real story?

I have a 486-33 ISA system with 8Mb of RAM, 2 IDE hard drives totalling 453 Mb
of disk space, a Diamond Speedstar w/1 Mb, and an NEC 4FG monitor.
Will I have to add anything to this system in order to run WinNT? Right now,
I'm running OS/2 (no boos, please!). Will it be possible to run WinNT and OS/2
together? Possibly on seperate partitions?


There are 3 Replies.

#: 12720 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  10:47:48
Sb: #12652-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 (X)

For the *average* end user, both OS/2 and NT are overkill.  Anyone who's happy
with DOS, Windows, or OS/2 won't need to consider NT for quite a while.

#: 12903 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  19:45:47
Sb: #12720-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205

What I meant by "average end-user" was how does Windows NT compare with OS/2
on a computer say, at home, rather than connected to a network? From what I've
read, it sounds like Windows NT really shines when connected to a network, not
necessarily on a stand-alone computer.

#: 12985 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  10:28:25
Sb: #12903-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 (X)

NT's biggest advantages for a single user with a standalone system would
probably be the file system (NTFS), with 32-character names, built-in caching,
and transaction tracking (unfortunately *no* UPS or RAID support, which I
think is a big mistake on Microsoft's part); better multitasking and memory
protection; and the ability to run NT apps.  The biggest disadvantage is
likely to be reduced DOS and Win16 compatibility compared with Win16 or OS/2,
but until NT is actually released it'll be impossible to judge that.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13010 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  13:31:10
Sb: #12985-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205

Hi Robert - UPS support is in the Windows NT package, you don't
  need LAN Manager for Windows NT to get UPS support

Bruce

#: 13121 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  10:18:45
Sb: #13010-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742 (X)

I'm glad to hear that basic NT will have UPS support.  I'd like to see RAID
support as well, though the combination of transaction tracking and UPS
monitoring will provide a lot better foundation for data integrity than FAT
volumes.

#: 13037 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  19:26:44
Sb: #12903-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624

        If you use it for any length of time, it grows on you, and you find
little things that you hadn't considered at first. I liked NT so well I bought
copies and installed it on my home computers. The first thing that hit me at
home is that, unlike windows, after the kids were on the computer all day, I
got on and my desktop wasn't trashed. Not a change that will move the world,
but nice.
        I have a lot of things in my startup folder. In Windows I had to wait
until everything loaded before I could start working. Not now.
        I'd been talking for years about neting the home machines. With NT,
pop in the card, throw on a cable, and bingo, instant network.  I'm waiting to
see if the next version supports non-scsi cd-rom, or if I need to buy scsi
cd-rom. In any case I'm trashing Dos and Windows on my home machines
altogether. This is the future...
        I only hope that no one has bought this jibberish about NT only being
for servers, and charging $600 for NT. That would be a mistake. I have NT
running on an 386sx/16 with 8 meg and a 100 meg hard drive. My machine is a
468 with 16 meg but only has a 120 meg drive that has NT,  the NT SDK, Win
3.1, the 3.1 SDK, C\C++ 7.0,  and all my other programs with 10 meg free.
IBM's contention that NT has much greater hardware requirements than OS/2 is
hogwash.

#: 13124 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  10:23:43
Sb: #13037-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521

>>$600 for NT

Since MS has said list price will be under $500, it's safe to assume that
street price will be no more than $300, and upgrades from Win16 will likely be
even cheaper.  It's also safe to assume that MS will price NT aggressively
against whatever they see as its competition, which is to say that it's hard to
imagine they'd cede market share to OS/2 rather than lower their prices.

I'm surprised to hear you're happy with NT on a 386SX/16 with 8MB. I tried
running it on my 386/40 with 8MB RAM and it was slow and unhappy.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13135 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  11:45:24
Sb: #13124-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 (X)

Bob,

>>I'm surprised to hear you're happy with NT on a 386SX/16 with 8MB.<<

It just goes to show that some folks are easier to please ;->

John

#: 13274 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  11:29:35
Sb: #13124-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205

        I didn't say I was happy with it on a 386sx, only that it will run.
After using a 486/50 at work, and my 486/33 at home, I'm not happy with any
GUI environment on a 386sx, and I've had Windows,  OS/2, and NT on that
machine. As an example, my daughter did a 30+  page cookbook filled with
graphics for school. On our 8ppm laser printer, the 386sx\16 took over an hour
to print the document from Windows. My 486dx\33 took 5 minutes. NT didn't seem
any slower running Windows programs on that machine than OS/2 did, although
it's been a while since I had OS/2 on it, and I didn't do any tests.

#: 12727 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  12:31:26
Sb: #12652-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 (X)

Raymond,

It is the preliminary version of NT that should have 12MB of RAM if you want
to do development including running the debugging tools.  It is NT + swap
files + C/C++ & SDK that takes just under 100 MB of hard disk.

You should be able to run the beta on an 8MB machine.

I run both NT & OS/2 on the same machine.  There are problems that can be
circumvented but I hope that the problem is fixed on the NT beta.

Carl

#: 12902 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  19:41:52
Sb: #12727-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322

You run them both? Okay, great! So, how do they compare with each other. What
are the good points and bad points of each?

Thanks for the reply,

Raymond S. Swaim

#: 13068 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  22:57:16
Sb: #12902-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624

Raymond,

All in all I must agree that OS/2 does DOS better than DOS or NT.  We will
have to wait to see what the Win 3.1 support looks like but so far it is
better to run regular windows that OS/2 for Winapps.

But NT is not a direct competitor to OS/2.  It is targeted as a super UNIX
that uses the Windows GUI API extended to 32 bits and enhanced.

If you want a desk top system that runs multiple DOS applications that OS/2 is
your choice.  If you want a super system that competes with AS/400s & Tandems
or a high power users station then NT is your answer.  If you want a system to
support multinational companies then NT is your choice.

Carl

#: 13174 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  18:45:01
Sb: #13068-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322 (X)

> If you want a desk top system that runs multiple DOS applications
> that OS/2 is your choice.  If you want a super system that competes
> with AS/400s & Tandems or a high power users station then NT is your
> answer.  If you want a system to support multinational companies then
> NT is your choice.

If it doesn't run multiple DOS apps very well then I can only imagine the
success it will have. That's exactly what killed the previous versions of OS/2.

As for running on AS/400s and multinational support, IBM is reportedly working
on that as well. I believe that they are planning to demostrate OS/2 running on
an AS/400 at Comdex this Fall. The fact that these features aren't out yet
doesn't concern me very much--Win NT isn't out yet either.

Raymond S. Swaim



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13204 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  23:24:34
Sb: #13174-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624

Raymond,

OS/2 2.0 has some improvements over DOS.  I think that NT will look to support
DOS programs but not to do a better job than DOS.  After all if what you want
is a DOS switcher then you should probably buy OS/2.

Some DOS programs will also require special NT drivers to run under NT.  But if
IBM plans to improve OS/2 then they will have to go the same route. After all
with features like C2 security and not x86 support some accommodations will
have to be made for special DOS apps.

Carl

#: 13285 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  13:21:18
Sb: #13204-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Shannon Hill 75430,446
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322

I agree with what you have said.  DOS is an old and outdated operating syste
it's time we moved onto something better.  It's nice to have DOS support in
WINNT so that some of those cheap programs will run, but you have to draw the
line somewhere!!  I want an operating system that will utilize the full power
of my computer and will allow me to do sophisticated stuff, not an operating
system that brings me back to the days of DOS and those cruddy memory
restrictions.  It's time us DOS users move on with our lives and stop living
in those ancient days.  I want an 32/64-bit open OS that will compete with
UNIX and the like, NOT a good DOS compatible do nothing OS.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13292 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  13:58:34
Sb: #13285-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Shannon Hill 75430,446
To: Shannon Hill 75430,446 (X)

I have also noticed little mention of UNIX in all of these discussions. I read
an article which mentioned IBM was using some of USL's UNIX de developers to
help IBM develop the new version of OS/2.  I think the real war will be
between Microsoft and USL (and variants), especially on high-end systems
(486,Alpha, etc..).  USL's new version of UNIX will be marketed towards
Windows and OS/2 users.  So which OS is better, UNIX or WIN NT? Some have
predicted the death of UNIX others have predicted it's long due bloom into the
PC market.  1993 will be a very interesting year, no doubt about it!!  Will it
be OSF/1, OS/2, DOS 6.0, Windows NT, USL UNIX, SCO UNIX? What about hardware?
We can't forget about that can we.  Soon there will be the Intel P5 and DEC's
ALPHA.  ALPHA is a 64-bit chip, when and what will bebe the first real 64-bit
OS?  I forgot to mention DEC's VMS in the OS portion. Will PC's become more
like workstations?  Will workstations become more like PC's?  Will the PC in
your office also be the departmental server??  Wow, what a year 1993 will be!!

      :-)

#: 13320 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  20:33:54
Sb: #13174-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Jim Bohannon 72561,2033
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 (X)

> If it doesn't run multiple DOS apps very well then I can only imagine the >
success it will have. That's exactly what killed the previous versions of >
OS/2.

Actually I am not sure how important it is for NT to run multiple DOS apps.
Most users who would even consider NT are probably already running Windows
apps.  The only DOS application I run at this point is OzCis for using
Compuserve.  Everything else I own has been converted to Windows apps.

The inability to run multiple DOS apps killed the early versions of OS/2
because there weren't many OS/2 applications available at the time.  This is
NOT true for NT because of the large variety of Windows apps available.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13331 S2/General Discussion
    23-Oct-92  02:56:12
Sb: #13320-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: James Ferguson 71477,2345
To: Jim Bohannon 72561,2033

Jim,

  I agree. I am down to my last couple of DOS apps. I only use Magellan
because NDW doesn't have 'zip' and 'unzip' capability yet. Of course TAPCIS is
still a DOS app. That's about it for me.

-- Jim F.

#: 13271 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  11:16:58
Sb: #13068-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Tim Clark 71220,1776
To: Carl W. Brown 71250,1322

Carl and Raymond....I'm not a tester or user of either OS/2 or Win NT..just
monitoring what's happening.  But I take some exception with what Carl says...
I use my PC heavily for business applications and I long for a real operating
system WITH wide application support in its native (i.e., fast, full-featured)
mode.  I lose a lot of time (and occasionly, work) with protection faults,
printing requirements, etc.  Multi-threading would be a material benefit, and
being able to network PC's in small environments with minimum fuss will be
increasingly valuable to the _average business user._  I just don't see OS/2
getting the application support (or native networking support?) that NT is
likely to garner, once out.  This, coupled with the inevitable truth that 486
machines with 16megs will be commodities in 6 months, tells me that at lot of
average folks will prefer and use NT.  "Super UNIX" implies suitable for only
a small priesthood of users, or for downsized strategic apps. Tim

#: 12745 S2/General Discussion
    18-Oct-92  18:46:44
Sb: #12652-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: John Hall 70750,2341
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624 (X)

> I'd like to ask a few questions to anyone who can answer

I'm the MS OS/2->Windows porting expert so I'll give it a try.

> Can anyone give me a fairly precise comparison of WinNT vs. OS/2 for the
average end-user? What are the HW requirements? What can/will WinNT do that
OS/2 cannot and what can/will OS/2 do that WinNT cannot?

OS/2 looks like OS/2 and Windows NT looks like Windows.
Windows NT has built in security, you will need to log on.  That might be
useful if you let your family use your system.  They can have their own files
and not trash yours (requries NTFS file system).
Finally, a busy program on Windows NT (hourglass) will not freeze your system
ala OS/2 or Windows 3.x.  You can also start dos, os/2 char mode, windows 3.x
or windows nt programs transparently from the command line.

That is for the average user.  HW requirements are difficult to judge without
knowing what the person wants to run on it.  Your system will run Windows NT
just fine.  If you want to run multiple Windows programs under OS/2 you are
going to start running into problems -- especially if you are starting them in
individual VDM's.  [The memory overhead for OS/2 to run a Windows 3.x app is
staggering compared to that required by Windows NT.]

In general, Windows NT can do anything OS/2 can do but many people [other than
minor notes above] won't notice or use the extra things that Windows NT can
do.  SMP, for example, won't mean much to you.

The last thing concerns the hearts and minds of developers.  OS/2 has their
vocal backers, but the majority of investment is heading Windows NT's way. I
know ont tool vendor who is now selling significantly more copies of their
product for Windows NT than they sell for OS/2.  A lot of companies aren't
renouncing their OS/2 plans, but the development resources from those projects
are being directed elsewhere.  BTW: no I won't get into a shouting match on
this paragraph.  You can believe me or not, and time will tell.

#: 12971 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  09:28:41
Sb: #12745-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Bruce Hallberg[Genelabs] 76376,515
To: John Hall 70750,2341

>>In general, Windows NT can do anything OS/2 can do but many people [other
than minor notes above] won't notice or use the extra things that Windows NT
can do. SMP, for example, won't mean much to you.

How about a list, here??

Bruce

#: 12916 S2/General Discussion
    19-Oct-92  21:35:55
Sb: #12652-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725
To: Raymond S. Swaim 71055,2624

If you want a somewhat biased opionion, but they won't say so, then there is a
file over in the IBOSUPPORT forum called "YOS2TX.ZIP". They have other
"falvors" of the file, but this one is simple text and is readable under most
systems.

Now, I don't support their position. It is simply their "comparison" of the
systems. It is nice reading; even if you don't agree with the points.

(Boy, talk about a biased, slanted, etc. comparison!)

They do address some of the points that Microsoft was supposidly telling the
world. I haven't seen the articles that they are making reference to. However,
if you take it for what it is -- a rebuttal then there is some truth in the
article.

#: 12990 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  10:41:28
Sb: #12916-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174
To: Al Longyear 70165,725 (X)

Al (and others),

I am a physician, not a computer industry person, and certainly not an IBM (or
MS) employee.  I do run OS/2 2.0 on my home computer, and I am here to learn
more about NT.  I am aghast by the "religious" fervor seen sometimes on both
sides, but pleased that people recently have been at least semi-cordial to
each other.

My guess, as an outsider, is that NT and OS/2 will both succeed, in somewhat
overlapping niches, and that neither IBM nor MS needs to worry about being put
out of business by the other.

What I'm replying to, here, is your note about IBM's file comparing NT and
OS/2, which states that it is a rebuttal to information promulgated by MS
which IBM felt was untrue.  You noted <<Boy, talk about a biased, slanted,
etc. comparison!>>

Seriously, I learn a LOT when reasonably mutually respectful "opponents"
disagree and muster well-thought-out arguments to prove their points.  If you,
or others on this forum, feel that this article was interesting but incorrect
or slanted, I would be very interested and grateful, for my own study of these
products, to learn how.  I'm not inviting "flames," here, but truly, I'd be
very interested to hear how folks on this forum disagreed with this paper.  I
think that mutually respectful dialog is a great way to learn and to examine
issues.

Any specific things that seemed incorrect or slanted?

Thanks in advance!

Charles

There are 3 Replies.

#: 12992 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  10:50:15
Sb: #12990-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Charles Dort 73117,2174

IBM's WHYOS2.DOC is about as biased as any of the political spin doctors'
comments on their candidates performance in the debates.

To boil down IBM's major criticisms of Windows:

NT isn't shipping.  (Duh.)

Some people think NT will need 12MB RAM.  (Big deal if true--most people
running a 32-bit OS will have at least 16MB of RAM, whether they're running
OS/2, NT, SCO Unix, NextStep ...  4MB of RAM now costs $100.)

People aren't really using Windows.  (Pull the other one.)

Windows apps aren't selling all that well.  (Thanks.)

Windows is slower and has heavier hardware requirements than OS/2. (Hey, I've
only got two legs.)

#: 13181 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  19:49:00
Sb: #12992-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205 (X)

Robert,

Thanks for the reply.  I appreciate being able to learn from NT-knowledgeable
folks.  Though this particular mini-thread seems to be as much about OS/2 as
NT...

<<NT isn't shipping.  (Duh.)>>  I appreciate your impatience with so obvious a
point, but I think the reason they're a bit frustrated with NT being compared
to OS/2 is that a _currently_ available OS is being compared with an OS still
being "fine-tuned," and which may be quite different than expected when finally
released.  After all, Bill Gates predicted OS/2 1.0 would take over the world
when released, once, but it clearly didn't.  I think the OS/2 folks feel that
it's a little unfair to use present tense in reference to NT, because it isn't
really out yet, and they could as well be talking about a future version of
OS/2 which isn't out yet.  I can see, though, how you might find this a silly
point from your point of view.

<<Some people think NT will need 12MB RAM.>>  I agree, not  a big problem.  I
understood, perhaps incorrectly, that NT would require even more RAM (16,
maybe), and perhaps 100 MB or so disk space.  If that's not true, it might be a
more reasonable system for single users than I had been led to believe.

<<People aren't really using Windows.  (Pull the other one.)>>  Again, this
seems silly, but I got a copy of their document, and what it really says is
documented as follows:

  "Windows has been an impressive sales success with Microsoft claiming to have
shipped 10 million copies.  However, the independent consultant groups,
Creative Strategies and IDC, estimate that only 55% or 30% (respectively) of
Windows licenses are in use.  Windows magazine has also questioned Microsoft's
number and estimated the number of copies of Windows in real use at about 4.5
million  (... October 1992, Page 16)  Any of these independent estimates reveal
5% or less of the close to 100 million installed base of PCs are using an
installed copy of Windows, far from being a standard."

     [continued in the reply]

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13182 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  19:49:21
Sb: #13181-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174
To: Charles Dort 73117,2174

     [continued from message number 13181]


I don't hear IBM denying that Windows has been a terrific success, but saying
that if one looks at what real people are doing with their computers, that it's
a smaller relative fraction than some of the quoted figures imply, and that
this has some significance if one suggests that Windows is such a "standard"
that no other OS or GUI could compete.  I have no notion of the reliability of
these numbers, and I would be very interested if you or others dispute them.

<<Windows is slower and has heavier hardware requirements than OS/2. (Hey, I've
only got two legs.)>>  I didn't find this exactly in the IBM doc <g>. What they
did say was that _NT_ has larger hardware requirements, and that at least for
some apps, partly due to the HPFS file system, OS/2 will be faster than regular
Windows, and will be more protected.

How about a question you didn't address?  I have heard it claimed that OS/2
will run more Windows apps than Windows 3.1!  Can this be true?  The claim is
that Windows 3.1 won't run a number of Windows 3.0 apps, and, if I've
remembered this correctly, won't run any pre-3.0 apps, (won't run real mode)
whereas OS/2 will (even though the "real mode" apps wind up with "protect mode"
from OS/2).  And that if you simply add up the number of _current_ Windows apps
that will run on each system, OS/2 actually runs more of them, and is therefore
more compatible with Windows than Windows...  Given that there are very few
native 3.1 apps out yet, and that OS/2 will have 3.1 compatibility in a couple
of months or so, this sounds like a fair claim!  Have I misunderstood
something?

Cordially,

Charles

There are 2 Replies.

#: 13221 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  04:00:41
Sb: #13182-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547
To: Charles Dort 73117,2174

Hi,

I am not an industry analyst or anything but it seems to me that an
important point that is missed is that when people try to figure out how many
copies of windows are actually used a criteria is how many registered apps.
have been sold. For example if 20M copies of windows are out there via sales
and h/w with win bundled etc., but only 5M
(spreadsheets+word_processors+whatever)/(2+whatever) are out there then the
implication is that 75% of win is unused. This, in my opinion, misses the fact
that even today individuals and business users illegally copy applications.
People will pay 80 bucks for an operating environment that they use every day
and want documentation. A 300 or 400 dollar app. that they don't use the full
power of...they will hack around (for free) without docs.

Why isn't piracy acknowledged for the threat that it is, and why isn't it
recognized as skewing dos/win/os/2 figures?
        1. I am wrong and it isn't significant (likely, analysts analyze).
        2. People are stupid (perhaps, e.g. Bush could be re-elected!).
        3. A head in the sand conspiracy (O. Stone comment please <g>).

Re 3.1 native apps: they are there, more are coming, by the time os/2
is 3.1 compliant excel & winword etc. will be win 4.0 compliant. In other words
os/2 will forever be playing catchup with win apps., it's bad enough waiting
for an excel 4.0 filter for pm 4.0 without waiting for os/2 to catchup with the
latest win revision.

Facts are facts but statistics can obscure the truth, regardless of
the fact that os/2 has some technological triumphs users are demanding
win_apps! The people have spoken.

Pete.


There are 2 Replies.

#: 13244 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  07:55:03
Sb: #13221-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226
To: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547

>> by the time os/2 >> is 3.1 compliant excel & winword etc. will be win 4.0
compliant

What is win 4.0 and why do you think it will be released by December?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13260 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  09:48:50
Sb: #13244-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226

Microsoft says that Cairo will go into beta next year and not ship until 1994.
I assume Chicago will come after rather than before. We'll see if and when IBM
makes OS/2 a better Windows than Windows 3.1--perhaps in December, perhaps
later, perhaps not until 3.1 is obsolete.  No one knows yet.

#: 13259 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  09:43:35
Sb: #13221-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547

In addition to the Windows users who are pirating apps, there are also a lot of
people who just use Windows as a task swapper/ multitasker for their DOS apps.

#: 13267 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  10:59:27
Sb: #13221-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174
To: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547 (X)

Peter,

I agree with you that piracy could dramatically differ from the official
numbers, but I don't know how anyone can tell exactly how piracy influences
the relative sales or use of the competeing products.  I suspect it will
simply be an unknown that is anybody's guess.  What do you think?

Charles

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13330 S2/General Discussion
    23-Oct-92  02:41:26
Sb: #13267-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547
To: Charles Dort 73117,2174

I think that piracy sucks. I also think that there is more win-piracy than
os/2 piracy, I could be wrong 'cos I am a small sample (of one). In my narrow
experience I know of a lot more win-users than os/2 users.

Pete.

#: 13348 S2/General Discussion
    23-Oct-92  05:57:38
Sb: #13221-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452
To: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547

Peter,

>>Why isn't piracy acknowledged for the threat that it is, and why isn't it
recognized as skewing dos/win/os/2 figures?<<

Becuase it is a 'constant'. The piracy percentage for both OS's is probably
within a point or two of each other, so it really makes no difference if you
are trying to compare market shares.

John

#: 13258 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  09:41:49
Sb: #13182-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205
To: Charles Dort 73117,2174

IBM's WHYOS2.DOC purports to counter Microsoft's claim that Windows 3.1 is
faster and leaner than OS/2.  In fact, Windows 3.1 *is* faster and leaner than
OS/2 unless you're multitasking (not simply swapping) several DOS apps (not
Windows apps).  That was the passage I was referring to as implying that
Windows is slower and has heavier hardware requirements than OS/2.

IBM's claim that OS/2 offers better compatibility with Windows apps than
Windows 3.1 is similarly bogus.  When I upgraded from Windows 3.0 to 3.1, all
my apps still worked fine.  I haven't heard of many people sticking with 3.0
due to compatibility problems with 3.1.

#: 13268 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  10:59:51
Sb: #13258-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174
To: Robert Lauriston 75300,3205

Robert,

<<IBM's claim that OS/2 offers better compatibility with Windows apps than
Windows 3.1 is similarly bogus.  When I upgraded from Windows 3.0 to 3.1, all
my apps still worked fine.  I haven't heard of many people sticking with 3.0
due to compatibility problems with 3.1.>>

Truly, I didn't come here to start a fight, but to learn, and I won't push
this further if you don't care to respond, but you didn't really address my
question, which seems to be simply a matter of facts: is it so, or are they
mistaken.  Let me repeat a claim I have heard before:

The claim is that Windows 3.1 won't run a number of Windows 3.0 apps, and, if
I've remembered this correctly, won't run any pre-3.0 apps, (won't run real
mode) whereas OS/2 will (even though the "real mode" apps wind up with
"protect mode" from OS/2).  And that if you simply add up the number of
_current_ Windows apps [very few of which currently being used are 3.1] that
will run on each system, OS/2 actually runs more of them, and is therefore
more compatible with Windows than Windows...  Given that there are very few
native 3.1 apps out yet, and that OS/2 will have 3.1 compatibility in a couple
of months or so, this sounds like a fair claim!  Have I misunderstood
something?

I might add that what I have heard about NT is that it would be even more
true.  NT, I am told, is more compatible in that it would be easier to port a
Windows app to NT than OS/2, but _less_ compatible in that most Windows apps
won't run on NT at all unless they are at minimum re-compiled, requiring two
versions of each app.  Whereas OS/2 runs Windows apps without a recompile,
while giving the advantages of protect mode.

Again, I'm an amateur, here, and if I've misunderstood or gotten something
wrong, please correct me!

Charles



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13314 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  17:53:45
Sb: #13268-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742
To: Charles Dort 73117,2174

Hi Charles  -

>> ...NT, I am told, is more compatible in that it would be
  easier to port a Windows app to NT than OS/2, but _less_
  compatible in that most Windows apps won't run on NT at all
  unless they are at minimum re-compiled, requiring two versions
  of each app...

16-bit apps for Windows 3.x don't need to be recompiled to run on
  Windows NT.  Windows NT has an emulation subsystem that runs the
  same binaries that run on Windows 3.x on MS-DOS

For example, many of us are running on the October beta of Windows
  NT 16-bit apps such as Excel, Word for Windows, and others

And, yes, porting a 16-bit app for Windows to Windows NT is
  straightforward

Bruce

#: 13302 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  15:10:37
Sb: #13181-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Carl Vincent 74146,2512
To: Charles Dort 73117,2174

>>>>>>Any of these independent estimates reveal 5% or less of the close to 100
million installed base of PCs are using an installed copy of Windows, far from
being a standard. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Windows 3.x may not be a standard, but it seems to me that there are a lot of
hardware (video primarily) folks tuning their products for Windows users, and
the November issue of Windows magazine and several recent issues of the
weeklys are saying that Windows versions of the most popular applications are
starting to outsell their DOS cousins. If users are not buying Windows then
they must be stealing it, throwing all the numbers into the copyright
protected trashcan icon.

#: 13059 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  21:42:27
Sb: #12990-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725
To: Charles Dort 73117,2174

Charles,

I personally believe that there is a place in life for both operating systems.
I was only commenting about the tone of the article. But, perhaps, that is
their right. It is after all a rebuttal to what IBM believes is untruths about
OS/2. I would appreciate if someone could find the articles that were
mentioned. I believe in reading both sides. However, the tone of that article
is rather ruthless. You should check it out. It does have some intresting
points. Some points are definately IBM tooting its horn. Some are true.

However, by all means download and read the article. If you can't find it then
let me know and I'll send you a copy. (unmodified).

#: 13060 S2/General Discussion
    20-Oct-92  22:02:21
Sb: #12990-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725
To: Charles Dort 73117,2174

One more thing, Charles, I am a "computer professional". I have been using
OS/2 since version 1.0 of the operating system and beta copies of Microsoft's
OS/2 1.1. That was many years ago and a large amount of grief.

Using both systems (OS/2 for one client, Windows NT for another) I can judge
the two systems side by side. Technically, Windows NT is a much more stable
system. It has a larger compatability to Windows then IBM does. (And even IBM
agrees that Windows has the largest base of GUI software for the PC platform.)
Windows NT is much more secure than OS/2.

OS/2 tends to crash if you look at it sideways (in my opinion). All that it
takes is some errant PM program to die in a strange way and the workplace
shell keyboard locks up. The mouse goes dead. There is no way short of
rebooting the system of regaining control. This is primary due to a design
consideration which Microsoft insisted upon back in version 1.1 (the dreaded
single-system-queue).

That is not to say that Microsoft was totally at fault about OS/2. IBM wanted
the GUI change to GPI. Microsoft caved in to the pressure. OS/2 would have
much more software if they kept the windows GUI.

In short, these are simple observations from an old timer professional. I am
sorry if you disagree with my personal comment. That is only my impression as
I read the article. Form your own opinons about it. Become educated and get a
copy. Its free for the download.

There are 2 Replies.

#: 13089 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  07:02:08
Sb: #13060-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226
To: Al Longyear 70165,725

>> Technically, Windows NT is a much more stable system. It has a larger
compatability to Windows then IBM does. <<

 What exactly do you mean by that?  NT has major problems running just about
 *any* shrink-wrapped Windows software and the October release still has
 some big problems.  On the other hand, I am running Photostyler with a
 Microtek MSF-600Z scanner (and it's *DOS* driver) under WIN-OS/2 flawlessly
 (once I figured out I needed to disable DMA in the driver.)  I can scan big
 pictures in a background thread while running IEF 5.0 in the foreground.

>>  All that it takes is some errant PM program to die in a strange way and
the workplace shell keyboard locks up. The mouse goes dead. There is no way
short of rebooting the system of regaining control. <<

 Well, *I* regain control by pressing control-escape and waiting about ten
 seconds when that happens.  The system then offers to kill the errant task
 for me.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13097 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  07:15:51
Sb: #13089-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Dave 75300,3712
To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226

Have you received your October release yet? (It sounds like you did since you
said the October release still has big problems). What kind of problems?
Thanks, -->Dave

#: 13187 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  20:23:21
Sb: #13089-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725
To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 (X)

Try this:
 1. Run the IPMD debugger.
 2. Have it debug a PM application which uses a DLL. The DLL has some
    initialization and termination code procedure.
 3. Before you run the application, set a breakpoint in the DLL
    initialization sequence.
 4. Step once over the main entry sequence. You will end up in the
    DLL initialization sequence. So far, so good.
 5. Now QUIT the application.
 6. IPMD freqs out and locks up.
 7. PM freqs out and locks up.
 8. Your entire workstation freqs out and pressing the Ctrl-ESC will
    do nothing. You can press it as many times as you wish and wait
    as long as you wish.

The only solution is to press Ctrl-Alt-Del and reboot the workstation. THAT IS
NOT A STABLE OPERATING SYSTEM if it allows a single program, IPMD, to totally
lockup the operating system to the point that it must be reloaded.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13243 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  07:54:57
Sb: #13187-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226
To: Al Longyear 70165,725

>> Your entire workstation freqs out and pressing the Ctrl-ESC will
    do nothing. You can press it as many times as you wish and wait
    as long as you wish. <<

 Did you try setting RUNWORKPLACE=CMD.EXE and running IPMD from the command
line to debug your DLL's??

#: 13341 S2/General Discussion
    23-Oct-92  05:25:14
Sb: #13243-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725
To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 (X)

Sorry, my application being debugged is PM based. The example which I gave was
the only one which fails EACH and EVERY time. (It was like forgetting to set
flip/swap on the CVP debugger and using CTRL-ESC to switch back to PM from
debugging the PM application's window message procedure. Sure death for OS/2
1.30.)

As I stated it was the only one which failed consistently. We must reboot the
workstations from 15 to 20 times a day due to other lockup conditions of OS/2.
It dies strangely if you try to use WPS to drag a directory to the shredder --
sometimes --. It dies if you try to issue the command "del *.*" and as it
prompts for "are you sure?" then all that the keyboard does is beep --
sometimes --. It is just too flakey to trust to "mission critical"
applications. We can not run our company on it. We tried. Were back on Windows
and MSDOS with great success.

#: 13349 S2/General Discussion
    23-Oct-92  05:57:43
Sb: #13187-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452
To: Al Longyear 70165,725

Al,

>>THAT IS NOT A STABLE OPERATING SYSTEM<<

Crashing an OS from a debugger is not a real good benchmark for stability. One
could probably set IOPL=NO and avoid the problem (but not be able run the
debugger). That is essentially equivalent to saying an OS is unstable is a
third party device driver can crash it. Certain software has to be 'trusted'
whether it has earned that trust or not.

John

#: 13273 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  11:29:00
Sb: #13089-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521
To: Chuck Ebbert 76306,1226 (X)

        NT runs ALL my Windows programs without a problem.
How do you know so much about the October NT? None of our people have gotten
it yet. Do you have a special arrangment with Microsoft?  (Would seem odd
since you seem to be an OS/2 fan) Or are you taking someone at IBM's word for
it?

#: 13094 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  07:06:33
Sb: #13060-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Al Longyear 70165,725

Al,

Your comment about the single input queue is valid up to a point. If the
system that has a PM app crash doesn't implement a watch dog timer, it is
hosed. If it does have a watchdog timer you get to get it back after a period
(a longer period than one would expect, and I more than once hit the reset
button just as I was getting the non-responding app pop-up, I eventually
learned to control my finger<g>).

I do disagree, completely, on your stability and compatibility points. I have
much more trouble with NT. But thats what I would expect at this stage of
development, and it isn't a criticism. I do expect that NT will be more
'reliable' at release, but that will come at a compatibility cost. OS/2
suffers reliability pains because it allows for more slack (sometimes I think
too much, but the user can control their exposure). NT architecturally doesn't
allow for this slack. You pays your money you takes your choice.

John

#: 13190 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  20:33:35
Sb: #13094-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

Ok, I'll accept your disagreement with my statements about stability and
compatability. Things will improve for both operating systems in the future.

However, Windows NT has some very basic design considerations in place which
are missing from OS/2. I am speaking of the security system. I have designed
too many OSs in the past to know that security must be designed in from the
onset. It is a total b..ch to attempt to add security to an existing operating
system. People have learned to code to the levels of the system which are not
secure. When you place fences (security) at these levels the designs do not
work. The droppings of dead programs are left to clutter up the works. (Some
programmers just assume that the function calls WILL work. When the do not then
they simply abort and do not do the proper cleanup of any data allocated from
shared storage. PM manages everything in shared storage.)

At each stage of the developement, security and (by assumption integrity) must
be considered. OS/2 has none of this. Windows NT does. If the Windows NT system
is properly installed and properly secured, programs, programmers, and users
will not be in a position to "take the whole system down". If you insist upon
running your work at the "Administrator" user, then you deserve what you get --
an unsecure system like OS/2. <g>

At any rate, these are only my opinions. Take them for what they are worth. (I
know, that an 75 cents will by a cup of coffee -- inflation).

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13236 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  06:15:48
Sb: #13190-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452
To: Al Longyear 70165,725

Al,

I have absolutely no disagreement with your points on security. From a purely
marketing perspective, however, I think the compatibility cost will out way the
perceived gains for a large number of users. Not that I don't think that this
would be short-sighted on their part. But on the other hand is full C2 (let
alone any B level) security overkill in a lot of commercial applications? Could
be. Time will tell for sure.

John

#: 13315 S2/General Discussion
    22-Oct-92  18:17:09
Sb: #13190-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742
To: Al Longyear 70165,725 (X)

Hi Al -

>> ...If you insist upon running your work at the "Administrator"
  user, then you deserve what you get -- an unsecure system ...
  <g>...

I hope you don't mind a clarification on this point, perhaps I'm
  being too picky, if so, I apologize

Even if someone chooses to run always signed on with Administrator
  powers, that doesn't throw out absolutely all of the security in
  Windows NT.  Some system processes run under system authority,
  which is different from Administrator authority

So, if the user logged on as Administrator starts an app, that app
  will run in a process that has an associated security token with
  Administrator priviliges.  If that app then does some errant
  thing that tries to destroy a process or data area that requires
  system authority to touch/modify, the errant app will not be
  permitted to the damage.  So, the system protects itself from
  errant apps even that are run by Administrators

In some cases, auditing may be enabled, and even though the user
  has gotten into a bad habit of logging on using an Administrator
  account, their activities will be audited.  This can be viewed
  as part of security.  I'm using the term bad habit loosely -
  perhaps the user defined a new account that they plan to use
  daily, and an adminsitrative error was made on the account,
  making it a member of the Administrators group

Bruce

#: 13183 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  19:49:47
Sb: #13060-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Charles Dort 73117,2174
To: Al Longyear 70165,725 (X)

Al,

Thanks for the cordial reply!  I have been only an interested amateur since
1968, when I handed my first small deck of punch-cards to a 360 operator to run
my first Fortran program for me, in a college Calculus class.  I wound up so
fascinated with computers that I forgot about the Calculus (and didn't do so
well as I might have...) and spent a lot of time learning about the machines,
and programming, etc.  Sometimes I almost wish I had gone into the field,
especially when hassling with insurance companies, etc, in my own field...

I wish I knew what to make of the fact that different people, so far as I can
see, honest and well-intentioned, make different observations about the
relative stability of these OSs.  You have had bad experiences with OS/2's
stability, but I have had great success, especially compared with regular
Windows (I have never used NT, which is why I've come here to try to learn a
little).  I've heard of people crashing OS/2 and giving up, and I've heard of
people talking about how their machines were virtually unusable with Windows
because of crashes, and now with OS/2, absolute protection.  I don't know.

I'll be glad when NT is truly released, because even a beta program is
different than simply having a new computer program released and loaded on
anybody's machine.

Anyway, no need to be <<sorry if you disagree with my personal comment.>>  I
learn a lot from disagreements!  What I was asking for was certainly not an
apology, but some insight as to how you reached your conclusions.  I appreciate
the << simple observations from an old timer professional>> and hope you will
share more of them!

Thanks again,

Charles

#: 13151 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  14:24:01
Sb: #12916-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Ken DeJager 76067,1126
To: Al Longyear 70165,725 (X)

My company is evaulating Windows NT and OS/2 for a specialized embedded
application.  IBM has posted a rather comically biased comparison, YOS2TX.ZIP,
in the OS2SUP forum.  It references three Microsoft documents I was not aware
of:

o   "A Guide to Evaluating Microsoft Windows
    Operating System Version 3.1 for The PC
    Desktop  With Comparisons to OS/2 2.0"

o   "Microsoft Windows NT Operating System - A      <- I really need this!
    Technical Comparison With OS/2 2.0"

o   "Microsoft Windows or OS/2 2.0"

Does anyone know where I can find these?  Time is of the essence.



There are 2 Replies.

#: 13167 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  17:15:49
Sb: #13151-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Dan Zemke 73230,1543
To: Ken DeJager 76067,1126 (X)

I too would love to be able to read these.  Assuming IBM isn't fibbing in
public about them being MS documents, how about someone from MS uploading them
here to CIS.

Dan

#: 13192 S2/General Discussion
    21-Oct-92  20:34:56
Sb: #13151-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725
To: Ken DeJager 76067,1126 (X)

Sorry, I too am looking for the documents. If you find them then please let me
know. Thanks.

#: 13358 S2/General Discussion
    23-Oct-92  07:55:12
Sb: #12916-Win NT vs. OS/2
Fm: Ken DeJager 76067,1126
To: Al Longyear 70165,725

Text here

#: 13357 S2/General Discussion
    23-Oct-92  07:20:46
Sb: Shipping!!!
Fm: Alex Wong 72360,511
To: ALL

Guys, Good news! (I hope that no one tell me they've already know!) I called
Microsoft to confirm my address yesterday and they told me that the new Oct.
release of the WIN32 SDK started shipping on Wednesday. They are shipping
about 1000-2000 package a day and there are about 20,000 of us out there, so
wait patiently.  But the good new is... It is coming!!!!!!

:) Alex Wong

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13361 S2/General Discussion
    23-Oct-92  08:42:59
Sb: #13357-Shipping!!!
Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463
To: Alex Wong 72360,511

That is good news indeed.

-MarkV




#: 12569 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  09:37:40
Sb: NT install
Fm: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541
To: sysop (X)

Regarding my other message about the 0x69 error. i changed scsi cards and all
is well. i'm now using a bustek that has ncr chips on it.

it's running great!!!


#: 12577 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  11:09:20
Sb: #12524-Installation Questions
Fm: Jerry Fath 75506,456
To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X)

Has MS released the promised driver for the 376, or are you runnind in WD
emulation mode?

Thanks for the reply, glad to hear there's hope.  I'll let you know if I pick
up any further tips.

Jerry Fath

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12578 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  12:11:19
Sb: #12577-Installation Questions
Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624
To: Jerry Fath 75506,456 (X)

Jerry
        When MS replied to my original cry for help they didn't metion a
driver for the 376 so i presume they don't have it yet.
        When I set up my HD I low level formated it after setting the heads &
sectors per the specs for the UltraStor 24F (16 heads/63 sectors) That turned
out to be drive type 30 in my EISA setup.  Then i partioned the first 500 megs
with FDISK and high level formated those with FORMAT.  The leftover part was
partitioned and formated with UTIL - thats the partition i had to remove to
allow NT to find its way.  NT is on the D: drive. Runs OK but still haven't
figured out how to get the lost cylinders back so not sure this will work long
term.
        Good luck!!
        Keith

#: 12586 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  12:33:54
Sb: #12296-Fatal error F002
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Bill Slade 76107,427 (X)

Bill,

0xF002 indicates some form of hardware problem, usually RAM.  A possible cause
would be a parity error in your RAM somewhere.  I would recommend trying to
run at a slower speed to see if that has any effect.  You might also try
swapping RAM chips to see if the error is in the chips.  If the chips are all
good, the error may be in the supporting hardware. I hope this helps,
  -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 12588 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  12:35:22
Sb: NCR 3450 and NT Install
Fm: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645
To: Irven Davies [CompuSys] 73500,2746

The best approach at this point would be to make sure that the machine is
configured correctly to install NT.  Give the good folks at NCR a call to make
sure that the hardware is configured correctly.  I would tell you how but I am
not familiar enough with that model to be certain of my advice. Alternatively,
wait for the next release which should be in your hands VERY soon....


Devlin

#: 12590 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  12:35:32
Sb: Setup Failure
Fm: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645
To: Neil Rosenberg 75300,3553

Have you tried changing the cable with one that you know works with another
machine that is running MS-DOS v5?  Perhaps this cable is unable to handle the
error checking through the status pin....


Devlin

#: 12596 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  12:55:18
Sb: Bypassing Bootloader?
Fm: Michael Williams 75016,1777
To: All

Is there a way to boot directly to Windows NT without using "Loadable
Bootloader"?

My VGA (T3200SXC) is bothered by something that bootloader does and I'd like
to see if NT alone causes the same problem.

Thanks.


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12610 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  15:07:22
Sb: #12596-Bypassing Bootloader?
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Michael Williams 75016,1777 (X)

Michael,

There is no way to bypass the bootloader alltogether.  You can skip the screen
where you are asked what OS you want to boot into, but the bootloader is still
being used in that event. Regards,
   -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 12600 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  13:54:31
Sb: NT Uninstall?
Fm: John B. Deurbrouck 70720,2062
To: All

How do I uninstall NT from my machine? I'm moving it to another box,
and want to get rid of the multiboot and leave the first machine as
a vanilla DOS 5 box? I've scanned the libs and the disk and no luck...
---John

There are 2 Replies.

#: 12609 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  15:07:18
Sb: #12600-NT Uninstall?
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: John B. Deurbrouck 70720,2062

John,

All you should need to do is delete the Windows NT related files and then
perform a MS-DOS "SYS" command on your boot drive.  This will overwrite the
Windows NT bootsector with a DOS bootsector.

Regards,
   -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 12611 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  15:10:49
Sb: #12600-NT Uninstall?
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: John B. Deurbrouck 70720,2062

Just boot to DOS and do a SYS C: command.  When DOS re-installs the system
files, it re-writes the boot sector, axing FlexBoot.

There is also a utility in one of the libraries call BOOTSECT that will
install your old bootsector directly (that little file in C:\ called
BOOTSECT.DOS has your old boot sector in it).  However, I can't say whether it
actually functions as I use DR-DOS 6.0, and that util assumes you have a DOS
5.0 boot sector.

Dave

P.S. from there, just delete the WINNT and MSTOOLS trees.

#: 12613 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  15:58:11
Sb: #12503-Two Drive Speed
Fm: Don Cock 72520,1500
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X)

Terence,
     It's not that much of a difference, but it was an interesting thing that
caught my eye.  It may be that the next version will have a different
signature as far as these times go.

Thanks,
     DonC


#: 12634 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  18:49:40
Sb: error: 0x69
Fm: Tom Sullivan 75216,2357
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X)

Never did get the mouse to work under DOS and I tried a lot of Apps: Foxpro
some Fox I wrote UI2 etc. My Config and autoexec seem fine. All my windows
apps worked fine. Then I installed WFW and tested that for a while. When I
came back to NT the windows apps won't work. I move Win to drive D: a SCSI and
I'm using WFW without a netcard in this NT machine. To the best of my
knowledge nothing else change except a DOS driver for my ROM from Future
Domain. I did a reinstall using DOS2NT. Can't do the graphic the Future Domain
driver didn't exist for SCSI and ROM. I can get to drive D and ROM from NT but
the windows apps still don't work. Funny my first install was from diskettes
via a third party machine that had a ROM. This is a PS2/70 12Meg ESI 120 and
SCSI 120. I thing I'll wait for the beta and try again I checked the registry
ect.
Thanks: Tom

#: 12695 S3/Windows NT Setup
    17-Oct-92  18:20:18
Sb: NT & SMC 8013EP
Fm: Leon Bass 76050,2303
To: SYSOP (X)

For the several people having trouble with the SMC(WD) 8013EP network cards: I
had the same problem with NT claiming that no adapters were found, and it was
driving me crazy.  However, I told NT that I had an 8003 and all of a sudden
my workstation is attached to a wfw machine and actually beginning to share
resources as of today!!

#: 12662 S3/Windows NT Setup
    17-Oct-92  08:16:50
Sb: Chinon ignore
Fm: Randy Subers 72707,1040
To: All

I have been unable to get NT to recognize a Chinon CDX-431 CD ROM drive with a
Chinon controller.  NT setup gives me a message saying it cannot find the hard
drive.  I can install with DOS2NT but NT still cannot find the CD ROM drive.
Since DOS recognizes the drive just fine it does not seem to be a drive
problem.  I have an IDE hard drive as my main drive which may or may not be
contributing to the problem.  Any suggestions?

There are 2 Replies.

#: 12685 S3/Windows NT Setup
    17-Oct-92  16:22:23
Sb: #12662-Chinon ignore
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Randy Subers 72707,1040 (X)

NT will recognize the Chinon drive but the drive must be on a recognized SCSI
card (mine is on a 1542b).

                               bob

#: 12712 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  08:51:12
Sb: #12662-Chinon ignore
Fm: Charles Gallo 74020,3224
To: Randy Subers 72707,1040 (X)

Randy,
        The problem is that even though the CDX-431 is supported, it's SCSI
card is not :-(. You need to hook the drive up to one of the supported SCSI
cards. I have the same problem

Charlie

#: 12680 S3/Windows NT Setup
    17-Oct-92  11:16:46
Sb: CD-ROM and Windows NT
Fm: Michael J. Primeaux 71201,3524
To: ALL

I have a Chinon CDS-431 CD-ROM and need to know how to tell Windows NT to
recognize it.  Any suggestions?

Hardware: 486/33 with 20megs of RAM (IBM-Compatible)

Michael J. Primeaux

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12713 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  08:51:22
Sb: #12680-CD-ROM and Windows NT
Fm: Charles Gallo 74020,3224
To: Michael J. Primeaux 71201,3524

Michael,
        I too have the CDS-431. The problem is that even though the drive is
supported, it's SCSI card is not :-(. You have to hook the drive to a
supported SCSI card.

Charlie

#: 12700 S3/Windows NT Setup
    17-Oct-92  20:54:55
Sb: CD-ROM and Windows NT
Fm: Michael J. Primeaux 71201,3524
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob, Thanks for the information, you've been very helpful.

Michael

#: 12654 S3/Windows NT Setup
    17-Oct-92  05:54:55
Sb: #12463-winnt install
Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Just for info, How much memory are your running? What is the box and BIOS?



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12660 S3/Windows NT Setup
    17-Oct-92  08:03:10
Sb: #12654-winnt install
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Denis Day 75236,3325 (X)

RE: Memory

The system is a 486/33 clone (one of the infamous 90 boards -- made in Taiwan
and works on 90% of applications (AMI definition <bg>).  has AMI bios dated
july 91.  Have 20 meg of ram, 2 - quantum IDE harddrives, 1 seagate SCSI II
drive, 1 maxtor SCSI - awful drive (but cheap), a bernoulli internal, a
wangtek 5525 (soon 1 gig). believe it or not it all works & NT thinks all is
fine.  Given the fact that I also have an HP scanner, 2 parallel ports, and
the MS sound system card, I deem it close to miraculous <bg>.

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12715 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  09:03:20
Sb: #12660-winnt install
Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob, I too have an AMI bios on a Taiwan board and 20 megs. I had to do a
dos2NT install as I am beleagured with a NON-SCSI II CD-ROM. I too have a
scanner (Microtek) but I have yet to diddle with it via NT. I just now got
TAPCIS to function albeit sluggishly slow. I can type much faster than the
letters appear on the screen (right now) ((when I finished typing the "right
now I looked up, yes I am one of those types of typists, to see the "r" in
appear post to the screen). With a little typing concentration I can probably
overload my keyboard buffer <bg>. I hope I won't.

I was concerned that perhaps the extra 4 megs (between 16&20) was adding to
the fatigue the system often displays and as I did the dos2NT install, I have
seen threads on bith issues here and was curious whater a borroed (only route
for the present) SCSI-II CD-ROM and 4 les megs of ram would reap a benefit in
a speed increse? I think I will plod along fettered until the next release of
NT arrives.

What type of controller are you using? I assumed an ADAPTEC 1542b? What is the
Wangtek, a tape?

Apps - I have gotten Commence (the "Phoenix" of IBM's Current) running well.
Excel and Winword were a simple install and they have functioned flawlessly to
date. I tried running Microphone II but I and getting system hangs with it so
far, some forcing a BRS (big red switch) reset. I can get the task list up on
demand but attempting to end the session with MP-II returns me to the hung
version. Just on a lark I nabbed my kids "SIMCITY" and it balked at "NO
Pallatte" or some such error message.

All for now. Thanks for the info.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12716 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  09:47:44
Sb: #12715-winnt install
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Denis Day 75236,3325 (X)

denis:

The issue of the extra 4 megs of ram is interesting.  Very complex scenario.
In a nutshell, it can give slower performance.  Would not be concerned however
until the frthcoming beta release.  Then we can raise hell! <bg>

Re: scanner -- don't even waste your time trying.  Drivers will have to be
written that will work in NT.  probably be sometime.  the wangtek is a tape
backup.  Nt recognizes it as such but cannot handle the tape format. Hopefully
this will be fixed in the beta release.

Good luck.  Incidentally the palette statement probably means that the game is
looking for a specific color palette. NT is pretty crippled in this regard
with this alphs release.

                               bob

#: 12729 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  12:38:19
Sb: It's Back
Fm: Tom Sullivan 75216,2357
To: sysop (X)

My windows apps returned to NT. I ran setup on a couple of them and then they
all started working???. They worked before then I moved windows to drive d:
and they went away. Then I did a reinstall DOS2NT and they didn't work until I
did the above. I still have no mouse on the DOS apps.

#: 12743 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  18:15:59
Sb: Unattached CD-ROM
Fm: Leon Bass 76050,2303
To: Microsoft or Whoever

I finally got WINNT installed and recognizing my ethernet card.  Now I am
unable to execute anything off the CD drive. I can access files on the drive,
but when I try to execute one, I get a message that my CD-ROM drive is 'not
attached.' This, of course, is the same CD that I used to install NT. What
gives??

#: 12587 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  12:35:12
Sb: #12225-NT Installation Hangs
Fm: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645
To: Peter von Glahn 71202,1067 (X)

Your problem may be resolved by the next release of the product.  You should
be getting it soon....


Devlin




There are 2 Replies.

#: 12598 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  13:23:35
Sb: #12587-NT Installation Hangs
Fm: Peter von Glahn 71202,1067
To: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 (X)

If the next release solves my problem, fine. I'll be glad to wait since I'm
not in a panic to get NT running.  Thanks for your time.

#: 12756 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  01:11:50
Sb: #12587-NT Installation Hangs
Fm: Daniel Appleman 70303,2252
To: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 (X)

Peter:

I hope you're right - I've been unable to run NT due to the exact
same setup problem.

Dan

#: 12757 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  02:39:59
Sb: #12180-Startup Failure
Fm: DANIEL LOCHER 100042,216
To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X)

no. Have you?

#: 12769 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  03:50:29
Sb: #12289-Trantor/NEC SCSI Adapter
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

John,

That message did not post too well. Sorry about that. There is a 10 pin jumper
block on the T128. The lower row is used for IRQ selection. If pin 1-2 is
closed you select IRQ5. If pin 2-3 is closed it's IRQ7.

Art

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12788 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  06:10:29
Sb: #12769-Trantor/NEC SCSI Adapter
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art,

Thanks for the update. Yep CIS mangled it, but I was going to wait to see if I
could demangle it with the card in front of me. Only supporting 5 and 7 is a
real bummer. Time to start rearranging, sigh.


John

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12792 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  07:08:56
Sb: #12788-Trantor/NEC SCSI Adapter
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

john,

<<Only supporting 5 and 7 is a real bummer. Time to start rearranging, sigh.>>

Tell me about it. <g> If I could not set this EISA machine to share IRQs for
COM2 & LPT1 I would not have a free IRQ. I do know that I will not buy any
cheapo 8 bit SCSI card for my home system. This 8 bit card crap from vendors
and dealers is driving me crazy.

Art

#: 12771 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  03:57:55
Sb: turn off autoconfig?
Fm: David A. Solomon 71561,3603
To: sysop sysop (X)

Is it possible to control the automatic hardware sniffing done by NT at boot
time, e.g. if one has a device that one does not want configured
automatically?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12801 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  08:08:29
Sb: #12771-turn off autoconfig?
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: David A. Solomon 71561,3603

David,

It is possible to have a device that Windows NT recognizes to not be started
during the boot sequence. With Regedit.ext,
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE|SYSTEM|CurrentControlSet|Services you can change the start
value of recognized hardware to 04.  This will ensure that the driver for this
hardware is not initialized during the boot sequence.

However, you must be aware that REGEDIT is very powerful and you can really
hurt your configuration if it is not used properly.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12732 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  13:08:23
Sb: Install Failure
Fm: Christopher Brickhill 71334,2443
To: Microsoft

Fm Christopher Brickhill (71334,2443) T0 Microsoft Technical Support Windows
NT installation failure

When the installation process attempts to copy CANYON.MID from a Future Domain
driver/CD Technology Porta Drive CD it hangs. For a few moments the C: drive
lights up, and for some time the CD indicates activity, however eventually a
non critical error is reported: "D:\I386\CANYON.MID cannot be copied". I have
Gateway 486 Eisa, 32 M ram, 320 m disk, the above CD. Any suggestions ?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12803 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  08:08:39
Sb: #12732-Install Failure
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Christopher Brickhill 71334,2443

Christopher,

Generally this occurs because of an interrupt conflict. What has happened is
that ntdetect.com has initialized just prior to the copying of canyon.mid. A
conflict occurred with the SCSI card and the file copy failed.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12749 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  20:01:02
Sb: Configuration Info.
Fm: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247
To: Microsoft Tech. Support

I'd like to know if you have an 'ideal' configuration for running Windows NT
that you could suggest.  I currently have the following
system configuration, and am having trouble getting the IRQ settings for the
Plus HardCard 105 to be recognized by Windows NT:

System: ALR Powerflex 386, 14 MB RAM
Hard Disk 1:    Conner 40MB AT-Bus
Hard Disk 2:    Plus HardCard 105
CD-ROM:         Sony CDU 535
CD-ROM Adapter: Sony CDB-240

I also have a memory expansion card installed on the system bus, in addition
to a Zoom Modem.

The DOS2NT install works fine, getting all the way to the Windows NT boot
loader.  After selecting Windows NT, a series of files appear to load, then
the error Phase 1 I/O Initialization error.

If this error means that the configuration I have is not compatible with
Windows NT, could you please let me know which components I need to change?

You assistance with this is much appreciated.


Louis Columbus


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12804 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  08:21:57
Sb: #12749-Configuration Info.
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247

Louis,

The problem is either the 'HardCard' or the 'Sony CDB-240' both are not on the
supported list.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12823 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  10:46:52
Sb: #12542-Win/NT, OS/2 1.3 Install
Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642
To: John Hess 72350,3141

John,

FlexBoot would only allow you to choose between Windows NT and one other
operating system. Some users reported successful installation of OS/2 dual
boot and Windows NT FlexBoot to "simulate" triple boot. However, since that is
not a supported configuration, I don't have any additional information on it.

You can install Windows NT on any partition, or directory you wish and have it
boot for that location. However, for the July release, we don't recommend or
support booting Windows NT from an NTFS or HPFS partition.

Hope this helps.

Sam Karroum [MS]

#: 12831 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  11:08:11
Sb: #12351-NT Problems BOOT
Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642
To: - Visitor 76137,3311

Michael,

Please state exactly what happens when you select to boot DOS from the
FlexBoot menu?

The Diamond SpeedStar is only supported in VGA 640x480 mode for the July
release.

Regards, Sam Karroum [MS]

#: 12783 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  05:40:47
Sb: Supported hardware
Fm: Michael Kerpan 70302,301
To: sysop (X)

Do you have a list of supported equipment in the libraries here? I couldn't
find it.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12800 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  08:08:23
Sb: #12783-Supported hardware
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Michael Kerpan 70302,301

Michael,

The last time I looked it was in WINNT lib 1 and called 0992hw.txt

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12839 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  12:23:11
Sb: #12800-Supported hardware
Fm: Michael Kerpan 70302,301
To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X)

Tanks for the infor

#: 12847 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  13:15:23
Sb: #12504-WINNT Boot Hangs on 16Mb
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Frank Waldner 72550,1162 (X)

Frank,

Is the registry set up exactly the same

\registry\machine\system\currentcontrolset\services\t128

on both machines?

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]




There is 1 Reply.

#: 12852 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  13:37:45
Sb: #12847-WINNT Boot Hangs on 16Mb
Fm: Frank Waldner 72550,1162
To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X)

Scott,

Thanks for your swift reply.  Yes, both machines have the same registry. You
see, I physically move the hard drive from the 386/25 (8Mb) to my 486/33
(16Mb).  Thus, the software configs are absolutely IDENTICAL. I have made the
hardware environment as consistent as possible by having duplicate SCSI
controllers and other interfaces.

The only differences are: the processor type, the amount of memory, and the
386 has a Sound Blaster.  I used DOS2NT to install from the CD-ROM onto the
hard drive.  This never worked on the 486 but was flawless on the 386.

The SCSI is the Trantor T128 with a NEC CDR-74 CD.  I was able to load the
T128 driver into the registry and successfully accessed the CD when NT booted
on my 386.  The point here is that the 486 NEVER GOT NT to boot past the blue
screen.

I first thought that I'd somehow screwed up during install on the 486 and
tried several different things.  Eventually I took a shot at putting it on my
386.  Surprise!  No problemo!  SO I figured, heck I've got NT built on this
hard drive, why not just stick the hard drive on the 486 and boot it up.  But
no go.  It's not a disk drive problem as far as I can tell since the DOS 5.0
that on the drive boots up just fine.

I was wondering whether the default swap file size is too small for a 16Mb
configuration?

Again, thanks for any assistance.  Please advise.

Frank

#: 12616 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  16:23:49
Sb: #12448-Hive 'Security' not open
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617

David,

I'm glad to hear you got things going, and yes, there is a [much] better DOS
install included with the Beta Release.
   -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 12854 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  13:53:24
Sb: #12616-Hive 'Security' not open
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X)

Terrence,

Thanks for your assistance and input so far, and thanks as well to the other
gentleman from Microsoft who I spoke (typed?) to... Its nice to get some
decent support on this near-beta software.  While I like IBM OS/2 better than
NT so far, getting any support at all for the OS/2 2.01 beta software is like
pulling teeth.  IBM does not respond to questions posted, nor will their tech
support staff talk about the Beta stuff.  I realize that the NT SDK and Beta
releases have a different mission than the OS/2 2.01 Beta release, IBM's
attitude suddenly stinks like the good ol' days when IBM was still more like
Big Brother...

I quess its a good thing I found all this out before I bothered grabbing the
OS/2 Beta, and thus didn't waste my time on it.  Just wanted to complain a
bit....

BTW, it now looks like I won't be needing that DOS install after all; I found
someone to take this Pinnacle Micro CD-ROM off my hands, and I'll be getting a
nice new Panasonic MC-501 CD-ROM and an Adaptec AHA-1540 controller.

Oh, happy day! :-)

Dave

#: 12594 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  12:50:57
Sb: Tseng ET4000 800x600
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: RanDair Porter 70312,120 (X)

this is probably no real help, but my STB Powergraph VGA has similar problems
with the TSENG ET4000 support in NT... the only way I can get it to work is
with the PDII.SYS driver and the TS_1024.DLL driver.  The 800x600 drivers
result in no display at all, and the ET400_70 or ET400_60 result in a display
that flickers like crazy.

Oddly, I can tell by the appearance of the screen that the 1024x768 mode
screen that NT puts up is not at the same refresh rate as the Windows 3.1
driver I have

Dave

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12650 S3/Windows NT Setup
    17-Oct-92  00:51:47
Sb: #12594-Tseng ET4000 800x600
Fm: Denis Fortin 70703,2646
To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617

>>> this is probably no real help, but my STB Powergraph VGA has similar
problems with the TSENG ET4000 support in NT... <<<

My ET4000-based Boca Super VGA card & TTX monitor combination has also been
giving me headaches!  Actually, I could only get it to work in 640x480 mode:
other modes produced a "rolling" screen, which seems to imply that the monitor
didn't like the frequency put out by the card.  (The monitor will not do 60 or
70 Hz, but rather something like 56 or 58!)  It does work fine under DOS at
high resolutions...  *SIGH*  Oh well, I'm hoping the Beta version will support
more monitor frequencies for the ET4000 (X386 in the Unix world is extremely
configurable with respect to the monitor, albeit a bit tough to set up -- I'd
hope to see similar configurability but with a slightly more frienly user
interface)

Let's hope the Beta gives us all 800x600 or 1024x768...

Denis, in low res mode (boy, I guess these SGI workstations have got me
spoiled!).

#: 12856 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  14:07:19
Sb: #12650-Tseng ET4000 800x600
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Denis Fortin 70703,2646

>>>Let's hope the Beta gives us all 800x600 or 1024x768... <<<

Well, mine at least works, just not quite the way one would expect.  Along the
same lines, the service pack for OS/2 will be including Tseng ET-4000 support.
You can bet I'm praying that similar problems won't plague IBM as well.

All this sort of implies that the ET-4000 cards we are using are not
sufficiently generic to work right with NT, yet I use totally generic drivers
under DOS, which work perfectly, including a generic Win 3.1 driver, and the
generic ET-4000 support that DesqView/X includes, and under UNIX with the
generic ET-4000 driver included with X1.  Odd, wouldn't you say?

Dave

#: 12846 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  13:15:18
Sb: #12530-DCE376
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X)

Keith,

Trantor 510-656-5159.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]




There is 1 Reply.

#: 12860 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  14:23:36
Sb: #12846-DCE376
Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624
To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X)

Thanks Scott!

#: 12911 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  20:41:37
Sb: Adaptec 1742 and NT
Fm: Mike Higgins 71121,1522
To: sysop (X)

I have an adaptex 1742 with the floppy disabled running in standard
mode.  During install, the card gets recognized.  However, soon after
the "recognized" messages, I get SCSI protocol error messages and  then the
message that there are no CD-ROMS in my system.  The ROM is an NEC-84 that
works fine under dos.  Any thoughts?  The system is a nondescript 486/50DX
with 16 MB.

#: 12912 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  20:56:57
Sb: Trick for WD1009
Fm: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565
To: all

I can't remember who gave me the trick to get Windows NT to work with a
WD1009-SE2 ESDI controler, the problem was a fatal 0x69 error. I would like to
thanks him for his tips, because it WORKS and it is troubleless.

The trick was the select a user defined type for my hard drive that match the
translation of the hard drive controler BIOS.

Louis

#: 12791 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  06:47:27
Sb: Boot DOS by default?
Fm: Bob Affrunti 70740,2341
To: all

How is BOOT.INI changed so that DOS (not NT) is the default boot
configuration?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12811 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  10:12:12
Sb: #12791-Boot DOS by default?
Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642
To: Bob Affrunti 70740,2341

Bob,

In BOOT.INI under the section [flexboot], change the line "default" to read

  default=c:\

save the file and you're done.

PS. The file is READ only, so make sure to change the attribute before opening
it.

This is only a workaround for now. In the retail release you should be able to
change the default operating system and timeout through the Control Panel.

Regards, Sam Karroum [MS]

#: 12915 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  21:27:39
Sb: #12811-Boot DOS by default?
Fm: Bob Affrunti 70740,2341
To: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 (X)

Sam, Thanks for your prompt reply.

#: 12648 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  21:57:56
Sb: Plus HardCard 105
Fm: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247
To: Microsoft Support

I am have installed Windows NT onto a Plus HardCard using the DOS2NT
procedure defined in the July 1992 Release Notes.  The message:
0x00000069, Phase 1, I/O Initialization Error appears on my screen
after NT begins to boot.  I have an ALR PowerFlex 386/20 with 14MB of RAM, and
two other hard disk drives attached.
Could you please advise how I can solve this problem and get NT up and
running?
Also, will the next release of Windows NT (rumored to be available by the end
of this month) be more tolerant of IRG assignments, and DMA
speeds?
Thanks for your help.

Louis Columbus

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12751 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  21:50:30
Sb: #12648-Plus HardCard 105
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247

Louis,

The plus HardCards use DOS device drivers. So far no drivers are available
for them to work in NT. What you should do at this point is download the
HWFEED.TXT here in LIB 1 and send in a request to have your hardware
supported. You should also contact the manufacturer and express interest in
them supporting NT.

Darren

#: 12897 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  18:55:12
Sb: #12751-Plus HardCard 105
Fm: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247
To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X)

Darren,

Thank you for your prompt reply.  I'll download the HWFEED.TXT file
in addition to 0992HW.TXT and get NT up and running.

Louis Columbus


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12920 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  21:56:02
Sb: #12897-Plus HardCard 105
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247

No problem. Just happy to help.

Darren

#: 12921 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  23:23:55
Sb: 0x69 error on setup
Fm: Tom Jordan 100026,2751
To: all

I am having a problem installing Windows NT on a 486 class maching.  I get
through the step that copies the files onto the hard disk but when it reboots
after that step I get a fatal error 0x00000069 - "Phase 1 I/O initialization
failed".  Any thoughts?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12941 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  06:13:17
Sb: #12921-0x69 error on setup
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Tom Jordan 100026,2751

Tom,

Error  0x00000069

This is a phase one initialization error, which happens when Windows NT tries
to talk with the HD controller.  It can be caused by any number of things.
Things to try:


* If the card allows, slow down the DMA transfer rate.

* Make sure both ends of the SCSI bus are terminated.

* Make sure there are no IRQ, or memory address conflicts.

* Make sure you're aren't using a faulty or un-supported driver i.e. the FD
  1680 SCSI controller is supported, but there is a problem with that
  driver which will be fixed and posted on WinNT, Lib 2.

* Make sure that your card is listed in the hardware compatibiltiy list
  which was provided with your release notes.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12904 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  19:49:19
Sb: WINNT won't run DOS
Fm: Brian Richardson 70720,2211
To: Sysop (X)

WinNT won't run DOS or Windows 3.1 sessions. I have an IBM Model 90 486 33Mhz
with NEC CD-ROM and a IBM-Audio sound card. NT installed OK, 16MB of RAM... I
get this error message when I try to run a Windows App. NTVDM.EXE - The
instruction at 0x010a045a referenced memory at 0xffffffff  The memory could
not be read. OK to terminate Cancel to debug. These options get no results.
Repeatable, unable to run.

I would appreciate any help!  70720,2211 Work Phone Number [phone]

Thanks for your help!

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12946 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  07:35:03
Sb: #12904-WINNT won't run DOS
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Brian Richardson 70720,2211

Brian,

What is in your config.sys and autoexec.bat?

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12873 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  16:29:29
Sb: Error 0x0000069?
Fm: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521
To: Jerry Drain [Microsoft] 72350,2056 (X)

        Someone over on Prodigy who doesn't have a cserve acc. had a problem
with installation, and ask me if I could help him since I'm always talking
about NT. I couldn't as I never had any problems with any of the installations
I've done. He says he is doing dos2nt install, and everything goes fine until
the final part of the boot at which time he gets an error 0x0000069. What is
this?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12947 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  07:35:09
Sb: #12873-Error 0x0000069?
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: KENNETH R SCHROCK 70621,1521

Ken,

Error  0x00000069

This is a phase one initialization error, which happens when Windows NT tries
to talk with the HD controller.  It can be caused by any number of things.
Things to try:


* If the card allows, slow down the DMA transfer rate.

* Make sure both ends of the SCSI bus are terminated.

* Make sure there are no IRQ, or memory address conflicts.

* Make sure you're aren't using a faulty or un-supported
  driver i.e. the FD 1680 SCSI controller is supported, but
  there is a problem with that driver which will be
  fixed and posted on WinNT, Lib 2.

* Make sure that your card is listed in the hardware
  compatibiltiy list which was provided with your release notes.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12949 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  07:35:26
Sb: #12546-NT HANGS
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: claude bachelet 100111,3557

Claude,

What do you mean by "if I take the CD out then back in after boot"? Do you
mean that the install hangs if you remove the CD from the CD player then put
it back in the CD player?

What do you mean by "with no PROM"?

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12952 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  07:51:15
Sb: #12447-WIN/NT &  OS/2 2.0
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: David Lipper 72130,1631

David,

There have been some people successful in getting OS/2 2.0 and Windows NT
working using IBM's "Boot Manager".  However, MS does not support the
configuration or problems that surface as a result of the configuration.

As for Video support in the current release of Windows NT we only support the
following video modes:

Super VGA:
 Headland Technology:
   VRAM VGA
   VRAM II VGA
   VRAM II ERGO

 Tseng Labs ET4000:             Orchid Technology Pro-Designer
                                IIs a variety of cards using
                                the ET4000 chip set.

Others:
 XGA
 DELL DGX frame buffer

All of the above drivers may have problems if full-screen mode is used with
DOS applications; the screen may become unreadable.  Alt-Enter will bring you
back to windows (altough a 10 second delay may be required) at which point you
can terminate the fullscreen session through the Task Manager. This will not
affect the stability of the other applications or of the rest of the system.
On some video cards with non-standard ROM fonts, some of the fullscreen
character modes (text mode) may not be currently supported.  Setup will only
install the standard VGA driver, along with the XGA and the DELL DGX driver.
Any Super VGA driver must be installed manually as described below.

Note: * This is only a temporary measure.  In a future release, installation
of
  Super VGA drivers will be done automatically. * All these drivers only work
if an appropriate monitor is attached to the
  adapter. Some monitors do not support the higher resolution or
  frequencies required by these drivers.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12953 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  07:51:20
Sb: #12332-Error 0x67 on boot
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Jeff Davies 70740,2765

Jeff,

If you have any ROM Shadowing or caching going on disable it. Also run the
IBSTEP program from the library (IBSTEP.ZIP--I think lib 1).

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12956 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  08:05:13
Sb: Page Fault @ install
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Peter Dennett 76470,540

Peter,

What hardware do you have in this system? (disk controller, network card,
BIOS, Video.....)

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12957 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  08:08:15
Sb: #11816-install error
Fm: Bob Churchwell 70743,3000
To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X)

Scott,
        That was my problem! I took the card out for now. Thanks for all your
help!

Michelle

#: 12580 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  12:15:20
Sb: #12525-HELP !!
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X)

Assuming you are running a DOS that can handle the big partitions, and you are
not over the 1024 cylinder limit, you should be able to install both D: and E:
in a single extended partition, without any special drivers. Of course, you'll
have to back up everything on D: before doing this...

If you don't need to see your E: partition from WINNT, you might be able to
put it back with the special drivers.  NT _should_ boot from C: or D:, and
simply not see E:.  What NT _should_ do and what NT DOES do are so far two
entirely seperate things.  Which is why OS/2 2.0 gets a 95% share of up-time
on my system.  Be quiet MS defenders - I know that WINNT is not even Beta yet
while OS/2 2.0 has been shipping for six months and that OS/2 therefore has an
advantage in doing what its supposed to.

Later

Dave

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12599 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  13:48:53
Sb: #12580-HELP !!
Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624
To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 (X)

Dave -
        Over the 1024 limit - Argh!! One would think NT would ignore what it
can't use but when E: drive is installed again NT gets all confused and can't
find its way home.  I do appreciate the suggestions Dave - maybe I'll have to
blow the dust off my stack of OS/2 disks!
        Keith

There are 2 Replies.

#: 12606 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  15:03:22
Sb: #12599-HELP !!
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X)

There's all sorts of things that one would think NT would do... like set up
standard 80x25 DOS mode screens instead of insisting on 80x50... provide
correctly sized fonts for 1024x768 screens... OS/2 looks better on VGA than NT
does on 1024x768...

Perhaps the soon to be released Beta NT will behave better with your extended
partition.

Good Luck,

Dave

#: 12625 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  17:17:58
Sb: #12599-HELP !!
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X)

Keith,

I have one of those > 1024 jobbies.  1224 to be exact.  The translating BIOS
routine had no problem installing (DOS2NT) on E: and booting NT from E: is no
sweat either.  It's using the CD ... now there's the rub <G>!

-a.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12735 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  16:02:29
Sb: #12625-HELP !!
Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237

Alex -
        Thanks for the hope!  Did you do anything special to enable NT to boot
from E: ?

        Keith

#: 12845 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  13:14:28
Sb: #12735-HELP !!
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: Keith Carter 71035,1624 (X)

Keith,

I didn't do anything unusual, except modify the boot.ini file, prior to the
triple-boot routine required to complete the DOS2NT install.  Just changed
that default line.  The reason for E: was simple ... I moved everything from
there to D: and C: and gave NT 106 MB to play around in.  It worked, which is
more than I can say about the "supported CD Technology Porta Drive and FD
TM850 SCSI controller" which still don't read data from NT.  It does play
great Elton John and Eric Clapton CDs so I really shouldn't complain <BG>!

Let me know if I can help in any way.  I'll be happy to give it a shot.

-a.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12861 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  14:30:23
Sb: #12845-HELP !!
Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X)

Alex
        What did you use to partition and format the E: drive?
        Thanks for your input!!
                Keith


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12968 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  09:23:07
Sb: #12861-HELP !!
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: Keith Carter 71035,1624

Keith,

I used DOS 5 FDISK to partition and format.  Currently am using DOS 6 beta,
but didn't require reformat or repartitioning.

-a.

#: 12872 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  16:21:56
Sb: NT Install Problems
Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627
To: sysop (X)

Hi there, this weekend I finally got all of my hardware upgraded so that can
install Windows NT.  As I was loading the software it occured to me that I
should have checked here before loading.  Oh well, live and learn. My question
is; as a new user of NT what notes, threads, files. etc. should I be checking?
My problems are: 1. Even though I selected Logictech serial mouse during
install, I have
   no mouse support. 2. I have no LAN so I did not install LAN support; now I
have no authority
   to update my configuration! 3. When I try to reboot to my previous OS I get
the message that drive C:
   is not bootable!!! Do you have any remedies for the above problems? Thanks
for any help you can give.a

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12948 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  07:35:16
Sb: #12872-NT Install Problems
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627

>>1. Even though I selected Logictech serial mouse during >>   install, I have
no mouse support.

--Support for this mouse isn't in the kit yet.

>>2. I have no LAN so I did not install LAN support; now I >>   have no
authority to update my configuration!

--Log on as username "Administrator" with no password.

>>3. When I try to reboot to my previous OS I get the message that drive C: >>
is not bootable!!!

--What is the previous OS?  If it is DOS or OS2 insure that the boot.ini
  operating systems path is pointing to the previous operating systems
  loader.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12981 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  09:59:34
Sb: #12948-NT Install Problems
Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627
To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X)

Thanks!  Any idea when Logitech support will be available? Any suggestions on
getting my mouse to work? My previous OS was DOS; I will check the BOOT.INI.
Thanks again!

#: 12995 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  11:27:29
Sb: #12548-NT Problems
Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642
To: - Visitor 76137,3311

Michael,

Is this a new problem? In other words, were able to boot DOS previously from
the same installation? If yes, what changes have you made to the system?
Please include a listing if hardware configuration (hard drive controller and
settings -if appropriate, hard drive, other hardware...)

What are the current settings for the SoundBlaster card? I/O address and IRQ
settings? Does these settings conflict with an other hardware in the machine?

Which high resolution drivers are you using? The Diamond SpeesStar card is
only supported in VGA resultion with the July release.

Regards, Sam Karroum [MS]

#: 12869 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  16:08:08
Sb: #12307-NT Bootsector
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Robin Wilson 70703,2221

Robin,

I'm not exactly sure from what you've said what you are looking to do.  I hope
the following will be helpful, though:

The purpose of the bootsect.exe program is to make it easy for you to switch
back and forth between having a Windows NT boot sector and an MS-DOS boot
sector on your system's hard drive.  Usually, you would have no need to do
this.  For more information about how bootsect.exe works, see the description
in the header of the bootsect.c file that comes with it. A successfull
installation of Windows NT, either via DOS2NT.BAT or the graphical install,
will place a Windows NT bootsector on your boot drive AND create a file called
"bootsect.dos". Bootsect.dos is used by the Windows NT bootloader when you
choose to boot into your previous opperating system. You can replace an MS-DOS
boot sector by booting from an MS-DOS floppy and using the "SYS" command to
make your C: drive bootable.  You can also use the debug script found at the
beginning of the DOS2NT.BAT file to convert a dos boot sector to a Windows NT
boot sector. Regards,
   -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 13002 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  12:04:28
Sb: NT Bootsector
Fm: Robin Wilson 70703,2221
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X)

Thank you, I'll look at the bat file. and most likely reinstall
Thanks again

#: 12646 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  21:49:21
Sb: #12560-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Amocams/Modular, Inc. 76260,3666 (X)

Bill,

<<The original point being that both of these drives remap their geometry and
NT works with one and not the other.>>

I suspect that the geometry is different. That has been a sore point with NT
and ESDI drives for a while. I'm suprised about that with an IDE drive though.

Have you tried it with several different customizable BIOS settings? You might
try it in the 600 cyl range just to see what happens. If it works you could
try a closer setting until it fails, and maybe get a handle on the problem.

That's about all I can think of.

Art

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12659 S3/Windows NT Setup
    17-Oct-92  08:03:02
Sb: #12646-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art:

Thought I would make your day. <bg>.  can get the Fujitsu 520 SCSI II for
$865.00.  Scary!!

                                       bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12758 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  03:17:06
Sb: #12659-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob,

<<Thought I would make your day. <bg>.  can get the Fujitsu 520 SCSI II for
$865.00.  Scary!!>>

Oh why didn't you tell me this before I spent $1199 for the IDE version a
couple of months ago? <g>

But I do know someone looking for another IDE drive. Maybe I should have you
talk to him. It's the same guy I tild you about the PC's and driving the 300
miles to pick them up. He stopped by here this weekend. Said he would not mind
driving to pick them up. 300 miles is nothing he said. It's about 700 miles
from his house to mine. He drove home last evening.

He just bought a 50 Mhz EISA beast and is trying to get the right drives. He
already bought a good IDE controller, but wants a 500 Mb drive.

Art

PS: If the price is right maybe I'll want another IDE drive for X-Mas. :)

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12797 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  07:45:11
Sb: #12758-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art:

They pulled in some favors and got one of the XTs fixed.  BUT! the guy told
them that the harddrive was iffy at best.  Don't know the status of the other
box.  Will find out today.

Took the address of the disk place home over the weekend.  It is in El Chino,
Calif.  Will try to get it tomorrow!

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12799 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  08:02:58
Sb: #12797-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

bob,

No big deal on the XT. Whatever happens with it is cool. How'd they like your
bill? <g>

As to the disk company, yes I'm interested. I'll be looking for the name and
address. You can't beat those prices. But if it requires a business license
maybe I should have my friend but it from you. You could turn a small profitt
and he'd be happy too. Besides you are closer to him than I am. :)

TTYL...

Art

#: 12832 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  11:24:33
Sb: #12799-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art:

They never batted an eye on the bill. <bg>.  Don't know about the second
machine.

Will post address tomorrow.

Don't rush into the new ATI card. On a ISA bus, cannot have more than 12 megs
ram installed.  Dumbest thing I have run across in a long time.

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12929 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  03:42:55
Sb: #12832-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob,

<<Don't rush into the new ATI card. On a ISA bus, cannot have more than 12
megs ram installed.  Dumbest thing I have run across in a long time.>>

So that's what you were talking about on the other forum. Crap! I already have
16 Mb and expect to buy more.

I bet ATI maps that 2 Mb frame directly. That would limit it to < 16 Mb
address space on an ISA machine.

Looks like the ATI card is out for me. Maybe when I get an EISA machine I'll
look again.

Thanks for the info...

Art

PS: Does the local bus version have the same problem?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12937 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  05:20:15
Sb: #12929-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art:

ATI is committing suicide.  First great mistake they made was to treat melike
garbage.  I am warmed up from orchid already <bg>.  Ended up settling on the
old graphics ultra. Fast and only program that it cannot work with is
Powerpoint (interesting to see what they say about this one <bg>).

The company with the cheap Fujitsus is Cell Micro [phone].  $869 for
IDE or SCSI 520.  Am considering the monster Fujitsu for 1400.  Out of
curiosity, how do you configure such a critter for NT and Dos.  I assume that
you use a debug routine to the adaptec controller and tell it to fib about
things. is this correct? or am I heading for major trouble here in NT?

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12950 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  07:36:17
Sb: #12937-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246

Bob,

RE: ATI

Driver related problems can be caused by several things. Most times it is
improper handling of parameters to a function call. The question is... is it
powerPoint or the ATI driver that is really the cause. I have found that the
ATI drivers are very timing sensitive. The ATI cards use a command queue of
some type. The 3.1 beta caused a lot of grief there.

Also you might want to check to see if you have the latest drivers. MSL did
have a set which have worked well for me.

RE: Big Drives...

Well if it is SCSI I'm not too sure. IDE drives use logical translation at the
hardware level. The bottom line is that the translation must provide less than
1024 cyls 16 heads and 64 sectors. Anything over that is wasted. SCSI drives
have similar problems.

Some controllers will split a large physical drives to two smaller logical
drives to use all of the disk, but that solution limits you to one single
drive.

As to NT & DOS. Well you know that third party partitioning schemes and device
drivers will not work for NT. You have to get DOS to recognize the extra space
without using a third party driver or utility.

As to the Adaptec controller, well you got me. I'd think the fibbing is done
with the ASPI driver. SCSI drives do not use the system bios for drive
selection so...

Art

#: 12978 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  09:55:38
Sb: #12950-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art:

Well just got done talking to the folks at Adaptec.  they have a new bios that
performs a translation.  believe it or not, it automatically looks at the
harddrive and translates it acoordingly.  I simply give it the ID0 & remove my
D: drive.  It then becomes D.  I use FDisk and set the partitions through the
translated bios.  Should recognize the whole shooting match (I hope).  Just
format it and away we go.  Also think that NT will recognize the translated
bios and the drive will be recognized en toto.  Have my fingers crossed.

Actually will ask Steve Fait about this.

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12989 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  10:41:05
Sb: #12978-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob,

<<Also think that NT will recognize the translated bios and the drive will be
recognized en toto.>>

I would definitly check on this. One of NT's problems now is that a
manufacture implements the translation on the bios or drive itself. Each NT
driver has to implement this translation scheme for NT to work with the drive
as it does not use the BIOS routines. There are people now with SCSI and ESDI
(most notably) as well as IDE that are problems related to the translation.

But if you can get this type of idea to work it sounds like a good way to go.
Since MS and Adaptec are working together maybe the NT driver will keep pace
witht he BIOS upgrades. <g>

Art

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13020 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  15:00:50
Sb: #12989-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art:

I sure hope that Adaptec & Nt are in sync on this one.  Will really tick me
off (happens several times a day actually) <bg>.

                               bob

#: 12944 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  07:08:50
Sb: #12646-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Amocams/Modular, Inc. 76260,3666
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

<<Have you tried it with several different customizable BIOS settings? You
might try it in the 600 cyl range just to see what happens. If it works you
could try a closer setting until it fails, and maybe get a handle on the
problem. >> That's a good idea, but I'll have to work up some energy to tear
up both of my machines again. --Bill Block

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12951 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  07:37:23
Sb: #12944-Seagate 3283A
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Amocams/Modular, Inc. 76260,3666

Bill,

<<That's a good idea, but I'll have to work up some energy to tear up both of
my machines again.>>

I understand. For about 6 weeks I never put the covers back on my machines
because I was hacking away.

Art

#: 12731 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  12:59:30
Sb: #12502-NT ESDI Install
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X)

Terrence,

Nobody has gotten back to me with regard to the material I have uploaded to
the forum/library.  I understand that there may indeed be a hardware conflict,
but had hoped that the Registry.txt report would help the developers to
isolate and identify it.

I have pulled many many cards from the system, including Windows Sound System
and any card which may have a conflicting I/O or Irq setting and as yet
haven't had any success.

If you can, speak to Todd Albertson.  With his help, we did have it working.
Then I got courageous and tried to do the Graphical Install.  When it failed,
I thought that bringing it back from Tape would leave me with NT recognizing
the CD Rom (in FileMan, etc) but that was not the case.

Thank you,
-a.

#: 13023 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  15:35:13
Sb: #12731-NT ESDI Install
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X)

Alex,

I've just spoken to both Todd and Tom.  The consensus right now is that it
might be a good idea to hold off until you have the October release in hand.
 I'm afraid that all I've been able to glean from the information I have is
that you do have a lot of hardware in your machine. <g>  With any luck, the
beta will do a better job of dealing with it (or at least telling us what's
actually wrong.)

Of course, if you need more help when that time comes or if we can be any more
help in the mean time, just let us know.

Regards,
    -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 12589 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  12:35:27
Sb: Security Init. Failure
Fm: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645
To: Bill Tierney 70741,3041 (X)

I am not surprised that you might get errors while setting up with that little
memory for the preliminary release.  The next release will be in your hands
relatively soon.  You may want to hold off on your testing until then....



Devlin

#: 13051 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  20:48:19
Sb: #12589-Security Init. Failure
Fm: Bill Tierney 70741,3041
To: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 (X)

Well, I guess I will have wait on the beta version.  My particular machine
will allow 8Meg on the motherboard, with an additional 8 on a 32bit expansion
card, which I didn't purchase with the memory card originally.

Unfortunately, my reputable manufacturer (Northgate) tells me that they have
not been able to persuade the manufacturer of this board to produce any more.
This is not an *old* machine.  And is on your supported list...

       Northgate Elegance 386-33 with Adaptec 1542b SCSI adapter.

I guess it just goes to show you that if you *may* ever need an optional
component, but it now!!!

#: 13050 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  20:45:40
Sb: Win NT
Fm: pam fowler 72360,3446
To:  71041,2613 (X)

Art Thanks for the response.  I just talked to someone in Washington today
regarding the Win NT release that is due out.  From what he told me it should
be out in the next week and a half.  Can't wait.  Believe me the product was
worth the wait.  Plan to load on a 486, 50 with 510 IDE drive. Any problems
that I should know about?

Also want to comment on this way of communication.  Like it very much.
Responses are fast, and information is great.  Keep up the great work, as a
user/developer/beta site, it has made life much easier.

Pam Fowler JHU/APL

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13072 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  03:33:34
Sb: #13050-Win NT
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: pam fowler 72360,3446

Pam,

<<I just talked to someone in Washington today regarding the Win NT release
that is due out.>>

Just incase you think I work for MS I should tell you that "I do not.". I just
help out where I can.

<< Keep up the great work, as a user/developer/beta site, it has made life
much easier.>>

See that's why I help out. I'm also a user/developer/beta site. <g> I also
feel that CIS has been a great way of providing support.

Art

PS: I forgot to mention this before, but I noticed that your message was
posted to yourself. The best way to get a response from MS is to post your
message directly to a section tech support person or to SYSOP or ALL. MS is
using a batch process to retrieve and upload their responses.

#: 13036 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  18:44:59
Sb: NT won't go
Fm: Beverly Pride 70302,2641
To: all

Here's a question for all you wise guys and gals.  I installed NT about 5
times the other day, and finally had to take th Adaptec controller out and put
in an IDE HD.  The DOS2NT was done over a network and seemed to work fine.  I
re-booted, loaded NT, got to the security boot, logged in, and that was all
she wrote.  I can hit <CTRL><ALT>+<DEL> to get the log-out/ task manager/etc
pop-up, but I can't go farther.  I call that AAA222+++ security since you
can't use the system.  I would appreciate any help. THANX! Roger W. Norman,
70302,2641

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13079 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  04:03:28
Sb: #13036-NT won't go
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Beverly Pride 70302,2641 (X)

Roger,

<<I would appreciate any help.>>

How about a complete machine description. Starting with the computer type,
memeory, any card installed in the machine, type of hard drive, etc.

It's very hard to determine a possible problem with so little to work from.

Art

#: 13099 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  07:18:56
Sb: Let Me In -- Wee ou
Fm: Beverly Pride 70302,2641
To: Arthur Knowles, 71041,2613 (X)

Re: giving you more info on the system, it's a no-name (Logical Choice AKA
TLC) 486DX2 without accelerator.  16MB RAM, Pure Data 9025 16 Token-Ring (boy
will it be fun making that work), 125MB IDE drive with enough room for minimum
configuration.  1MB SVGA.  Pretty much plain vanilla wrapper.  WFW installed
DOS installed, and now NT.  It seems to like it, but like I said, there's no
better security than not being able to get into the system.  BIOS is AMI 1991
No other pertinent info as far as I can tell.  I'm going to change the drive
to a 323MB SCSI with a 1542 from Adaptec, so I'll let you know if that helps,
but hardware does not look like the problem. Thanks again for your help here
and elsewhere. THANX!

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13101 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  07:29:29
Sb: #13099-Let Me In -- Wee ou
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Beverly Pride 70302,2641

Beverly,

Pull out the Token Ring card and see if that solves your problem. Some people
with Token Ring cards have reported a few weird problems. Maybe your Token
Ring card is causing the problem too.

Art

#: 13061 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  22:22:05
Sb: problems
Fm: stephen popik 71201,417
To: all

I had a problem installing NT and since installing I have had a strange
occurrance. I needed to use the DOS2NT.BAT installation process since I have a
non-SCSI CD-ROM(Sony 7205). When I got to Step 7, Create Registry, and did the
reboot I got error F002, which the troubleshooting guide said was a HW
problem, probably memory. I went back to DOS and ran diagnostics which said
all was well. I then rebboted into NT and the install continued as if nothing
had gone wrong. When I finished the install none of the development tools,
such as the C/C++ compiler, had been installed. After investigating a bit, I
ran \mstools\manual.bat on my CD-ROM and the tools were installed. Of course
there is not a GROUP for these tools in my PROGMAN window. Nor is there a
STARTUP group there. My next problem is that this evening I was unable to
shutdown or restart NT. I would try and logoff, restart or shutdown and NT
would just continue to run. I had hit the RESET button to get out. To NTs
credit when I returned to NT nothing appeared corrupted and I was then able to
run normally.

I also would like to see a way to IMPORT my DOS/WINDOWS 3.1 groups into NT. Is
there a way to do this and I'm just not seeing it? Or do I have to manually do
it for all my apps(DOS and WINDOWS). Regards Steve

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13081 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  04:13:37
Sb: #13061-problems
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: stephen popik 71201,417 (X)

Steve,

FWIW: When you perform an NT reinstall, make sure you delete all of your prior
WINNT and MSTOOLS directories. Some weird things may occur otherwise.

It's also known that if you crash teh DOS/WOW subsystem that you can
experiance a logoff problem.

I'd also be thinking about that F002 error. It generally indicates a memory
related problem. DOS does not stress the system as much as a protected mode
OS. During the IBM OS/2 2.0 beta, enough people had parity problems relating
to mismatched simms (speed) and other timing related problems.

I think that the next release will cure most of your problems. Assuming you
and I can wait another couple of weeks.<g>

Art

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13103 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  08:20:39
Sb: #13081-problems
Fm: stephen popik 71201,417
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

I'll try a reinstall tonight. If mismatched SIMM speeds can cause a problem I
may have a problem. I'm using both 70ns and 80ns SIMMs(each bank is matched
though). Since my machine needs 80ns I don't see why having some banks(BANK0)
with faster memory would be a problem. What would have crashed DOS/WOW? I
tried running Norton Desktop for Windows early in my session and it didn't
work. Could that have crashed DOS/WOW and I didn't realize it? Thanks for the
info. Regards, Steve

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13106 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  08:48:09
Sb: #13103-problems
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: stephen popik 71201,417

Steve,

<<Since my machine needs 80ns I don't see why having some banks(BANK0) with
faster memory would be a problem.>>

To be honest I do not know the specific reasons either. I do know that not
_all_ memory is the same. I have a caching disk controller that will not work
with 3 chip simms for instance. Maybe some hardware guru will show up and give
us the technical details.

<<What would have crashed DOS/WOW? I tried running Norton Desktop for Windows
early in my session and it didn't work. Could that have crashed DOS/WOW and I
didn't realize it?>>

Quite possibly. I do not use Norton's Desktop though. NT's DOS/WOW layer is
not a 100% emulation. The DOS compatability only supports the DOS int21
interface. So if an app makes unsupported DOS or Windows calls it should fail.
The DOS/WOW layer still has a few bugs in it. This one at least has been fixed
in the next release from what I've seen here.

You might want to post a message here or in the norton forum to ask if an NT
version will be made available.

Art

#: 13014 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  13:40:34
Sb: UK Keyboards
Fm: Keith MacDonald 100041,235
To: SYSOP (X)

When I run a DOS program, such as CIM, the layout of my UK keyboard
is not recognised.  It is handled at the CMD command prompt correctly.
Is there anything I can do to fix this?

Thanks in advance,
Keith

#: 13113 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  09:07:59
Sb: #13014-UK Keyboards
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Keith MacDonald 100041,235 (X)

Keith,

The problem has been reported as of message 6637.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12910 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  20:36:16
Sb: TMC850M/Denon Problem
Fm: REX DIETERLE 72261,3470
To:  71075,3225 (X)

Scott:

I am still unable to load NT in the graphics mode from my Denon DRD-253 using
a TMC-850M SCSI interface. You suggested changing the address jumpers however
non make a difference. Once again I am able to read from the drive under DOS
with either the Denon or Future Domaine Drivers. It would appear to me to be
more of a driver problem. Is there anyone able to install under the graphical
system with a Denon 253 using a FD TMC-850M. I get a ARC Status 8 and Srb
Status 0084 unable to read Error with NT.

Thanks  Rex D.

#: 13114 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  09:08:04
Sb: #12910-TMC850M/Denon Problem
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: REX DIETERLE 72261,3470

Rex,

The FD 850M must be on IRQ 5 to install Windows NT. The FD850M has a jumper
(w5) that sets the card to zero wait state.  This jumper must be OPEN for the
driver to operate reliably with this adapter.

Have you also tried turning all caching/Shadowing etc.. off.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12905 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  19:51:50
Sb: UltraStor 15C/Adap 1542B
Fm: Patrick J. Maloney 73407,3676
To: C Straghalis [UltraStor] 71005,1655 (X)

Hello! I have a question to which you may know the answer:  I am considering
buying a system with an UltraStor 15C (2MB) and an Adaptec 1542B (CD-ROM to be
bought later - one on the HW list).  Is the 15C 100% WD compatible? Any known
conflicts?
                                Thanks, Patrick

#: 13115 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  09:08:10
Sb: #12905-UltraStor 15C/Adap 1542B
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Patrick J. Maloney 73407,3676

Patrick,

I am not sure about the WD1003 compat. issue--you will still need to get with
Ultrastore on this one.

However, I do know that it is an IDE caching controller, and people have
installed NT on a disk controlled by the Ultrastor 15C.

However, I do caution you about about using caching controllers with Windows NT
because disk security has to know low level details which would be masked by
the caching.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12755 S3/Windows NT Setup
    18-Oct-92  22:54:00
Sb: HD
Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624
To: MS Tech

I have NT setup using a Mylex dce376 EISA card but it won't allow
me to use anything beyond 1024 cyl in either dos or NT.  Is there
anyway to get the rest of my valuable HD space back???
        Please help [MS]
                        Keith

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12818 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  10:29:34
Sb: #12755-HD
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Keith Carter 71035,1624

Keith,

I understand that the dce376 is a SCSI drive, however I do not know if it can
emulate ESDI or not.  It is not on the supported list so it has not been
tested.  How are you using it?

There is a problem with large ESDI drives (ie. > 1024 cyl).  If the card does
not do hardware translation and the driver for the card also does not do the
translation then there is this problem.

However, SCSI is different.

ESDI uses CHS (cylinder, sector, head) address.  SCSI uses RBA (relative block
address) adressing.  Normally, you do not worry about a 1024 cylinder limit
with SCSI, until the SCSI drive becomes very large (> 1 GB).  Then there is a
problem. Some SCSI cards have a jumper for > 1GB support.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12827 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  10:54:14
Sb: #12818-HD
Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624
To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X)

Scott
        The DCE376 I have is a SCSI EISA version with a 660 meg. drive.
It's installed on an Intel EISA motherboard. The first 500 meg was partitioned
with FDISK into 2 drives.  The rest normally needs UTIL.EXE from Mylex to
partition.  NT's disk manager can see it if partitioned this way but can't
seem to do anything with it?
        Although currently NT is on the dos D: drive, I tried installing it on
the E: drive by Mylex and it got as far as the blue screen and gave an error
message "Fatal System Error: 0x00000069" Phase 1 I/O initialization failed"
        I appreciate your help
                Keith

#: 13116 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  09:08:15
Sb: #12827-HD
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Keith Carter 71035,1624

Keith,

Have you tried using Windows NT to format the entire drive?

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12822 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  10:46:44
Sb: #12545-TEAC FD-505 Install P
Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642
To: Billy Newport 100030,342

Billy,

Have you tried using the Chinon 3.5" drive with Windows NT? How does that
configuration work? What other hardware/controllers/etc in the machine?

Sam Karroum [MS]

#: 13120 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  10:15:12
Sb: #12822-TEAC FD-505 Install P
Fm: Billy Newport 100030,342
To: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 (X)

I have a:

486DX50 256K Cache 32MB RAM PWB ISA Motherboard
Adaptec 1542B SCSI controller
Toshiba 3301 CDROM
Wangtek DAT 1300XL DAT SCSI drive.
Fujistu 2624 SCSI 500MB disk.
Teac FD505 twin floppy, 3.5" configured as A 5.25" as B.
ATI Ultra card
SMC Etherlink II combo network card.

OS/2 2.0 runs fine on the machine but its installation disks have the same
problem as yours, they just hang. But DOS bootable disks do boot.

Any ideas.

#: 13123 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  10:21:05
Sb: BallPoint Mouse and NT
Fm: Ken Blackler 100112,1040
To: Microsoft

I have a Microsoft Ball Point mouse, and am left handed. NT doeasn't seem to
have any way of configuring the mouse, is there any equivalent to MOUSE.INI
under Windows3.1????

KEnB

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13128 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  10:52:48
Sb: #13123-BallPoint Mouse and NT
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Ken Blackler 100112,1040

ken,

<<I have a Microsoft Ball Point mouse, and am left handed. NT doeasn't seem to
have any way of configuring the mouse, is there any equivalent to MOUSE.INI
under Windows3.1????>>

I don't have NT up right at the moment, but I think the Control Panel Mouse
applet will allow you to switch buttons and set tracking speed etc.

Art

#: 12576 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  10:57:26
Sb: Creating a boot disk
Fm: Cris Sagastume 76660,753
To: ALL

I have a copy of build 323 and in preparation for the October beta disk I want
to start compiling for STDCALL stuff.

My question is, how do I create a boot disk from the disk images that are on
the CD?

Thanks,

Cris

#: 12871 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  16:11:44
Sb: #12576-Creating a boot disk
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Cris Sagastume 76660,753

Cris,

What disk images are you refering to (ie. filenames) ?

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 13003 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  12:17:54
Sb: #12871-Creating a boot disk
Fm: Cris Sagastume 76660,753
To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X)

The disk image is in the DISKS directory and is called DISK1.35, I was told
that I could create a boot disk from the CD, is this true?

Thanks, Cris Sagastume

#: 13138 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  12:03:50
Sb: #13003-Creating a boot disk
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Cris Sagastume 76660,753 (X)

Cris,

I believe these images are the disks that get created if you use Install Method
2 (WINNT).  When doing this setup method it asks you to insert a blank,
formatted, high-density floppy disk into the boot drive.  As far as I can tell
it is internal to WINNT.exe

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 13147 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  13:11:22
Sb: Which CDROM drv for NT?
Fm: Mark Gibbons 76216,1032
To: ALL

       Now that I have a couple of CD-ROMs, it's time to choose a CDROM drive.
I have been told that WINNT will support SCSI-2 drives only; so I am asking
which is the best for the money.  I also need to buy a SCSI/SCSI-2 controller
that will support a HP 1Gig drive, as well as the CD-ROM drive. I am running a
486/33 with AMI BIOS, and run mostly windows applications. Having bought the
486 motherboard, a 15" SVGA monitor, and traded for the HP drive in the last 3
months, I am not overloaded with cash.  But I don't want to be penny wise and
compatability foolish. (I also can't do much with the MS Developer Net CD or
the WIN32 preliminary CD until I get a drive.)
       Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.
                                               Mark

#: 13149 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  13:35:18
Sb: ERROR 0x0000006B
Fm: VAUGHAN REID 100113,2750
To: SYSOP (X)

It seems that I'm not the first to get this but all but 2 of the messages have
been erased from the forum.
I have an IBM Model 95 with 2 400Mb SCSI drives plus IBM internal CD-ROM,
XGA, 3 1/2inch and 5 1/4 inch floppies plus 3 serial and 2 parallel ports.  I
installed DOS 5.0 and tried all 3 methods of installing NT.
Each method seemed fine until the re-boot after stage 1.
The screen said :

MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT - Preliminary Release for Developers
MmInit : 16064 Kb Available Memory
*** Fatal System Error : 0x0000006B
*** Phase 1 process initialisation failed

Help!!! or do I have to wait for the next release?

#: 12591 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  12:36:11
Sb: WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X)

Alex,

        I just read part of your thread on the WD1009 ESDI controller.  I have
the same setup, and initially had some problems, and was able to resolve them.
Your original problem description has scrolled off the board, so I will give
you the solution to my problem... you tell me if it applies:

The WD1009 controller sets up translation using the BIOS on the controller. It
sets up the CMOS setup to drive type 1, and patches in the correct translation
parameters at boot time.  On my system, this confuses both WINNT and MS-DOS
5.0; neither can read the partition table correctly.  On my system, the
solution was to enter the translation parameters directly into the CMOS setup.
For example, if the WD1009 setup shows the translate mode as 654 cylinders, 16
heads, 63 sectors per track, go into CMOS setup and program one of the
user-defined drive types to match, and use it rather than type 1.  If you
don't have user defined drive types, you might be able to find a standard type
that is close enough - my BIOS has several designed for translation
controllers (none were correct however).  You might want to have a DOS disk
with DEBUG on it handy in case of mishap - you can have the WD BIOS take
control again if need be.

I hope this helps... If not, give me some more input...

Dave

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12620 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  17:04:31
Sb: #12591-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617

Dave,

Thank you for the assist.  I do have CMOS user definable drive types, and will
give it a try.  I only am concerned (and will do a full tape backup) that I
don't lose stuff.

The difference is that this is a WD1007V-SE2, not 1009.  And DOS 5 (and
6/beta) have no problems with it at all.  Nor does Win 3.1.  And the CD player
(which is where the problems all happen) is available to DOS 5/6 and Win 3.1
for data and audio.  NT only plays audio.  No data at all.  The Graphical
Install fails miserably.  And DOS2NT installs, but NT's FileMan, even tho it
shows "F:" as a CD icon, won't read data. Even more strange, is that it tells
me the "media is not formatted" and asks if I want to format it.  The Event
Log tells me a device has "timed out" ...

Does this sound like what you went through?  I will wait for your response
before trying ANYthing <G>!

Again, thank you.

-a.

#: 12855 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  13:58:00
Sb: #12620-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X)

No, I guess your problem is not the same as the one I had with the 1009. If NT
installs and recognizes your hard drive and boots okay, you're beyond the
troubles I was having.

Out of curiousity, what CD-ROM and SCSI controller are you using?

Dave

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12967 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  09:22:10
Sb: #12855-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617

Dave,

The CD ROM and SCSI Controller?  The CD Technology CD Porta Drive and Future
Domain TM850, right off the NT coupon.  Exactly as supported by NT.

The problem I have/had is that I cannot do a Graphical Install.  DOS2NT works,
but then I cannot access the CD for data under NT.  It _does_ play audio!
According to MS' tech people, that's backwards from most problems.  Most
people who have CD Rom problems _can_ read data but _cannot_ play audio.

Go figger <G>!

BTW, setting up for Drive Typ3 47, at 618/16/63, was no sweat and the 'puter
booted up as if nothing had changed.  Now, I have to make more room on this
monster and try (again) to install NT.  I should know immediately ... well,
pretty early into the install ... if it's working.  It always craps out when
the Graphical Install gets to the screen dialog box showing the files it's
copying (starting with Canyon.mid) and the percentage bar.  That's where it
always dies.

-a.

#: 13034 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  17:31:59
Sb: #12967-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X)

This is obvious, but one would think that the CD-ROM offered with NT would
work _perfectly_.  Then again, one might have a brain tumor. :-)

Perhaps the graphical install fails becuase it has trouble with the controller
BIOS setting up the translation, which would be resolved by using the custom
drive type.  Of course, you'll know that before you read this, so that last
observation is a bit pointless.

Just a bit punchy this afternoon... :-(

Dave

p.s.   I will pray to the great God of NT Graphical Install on your behalf
       tonight.

#: 13117 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  09:13:11
Sb: #13034-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617 (X)

Dave,

I appreciate your prayers to TGGONT.  I've had too much else to do and very
little inclination to fight with NT, so it hasn't been tried yet.  Maybe
tonight <g> when I'm really punchy <G> ....

-a.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13143 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  12:36:32
Sb: #13117-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X)

Then I will pray again tonight.  May the Force be with you, young Jedi.

Dave

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13154 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  14:48:22
Sb: #13143-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617

Thank you, Obi Wan ...

#: 12593 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  12:43:06
Sb: #12286-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565

Louis,

Sounds like you have a 330 MB ESDI hard drive? If so, then your system is
seeing the whole drive.  If you are having a problem getting your setup to
work with WINNT, read the message I just sent to Alex (the other guy with the
WD1009 problem)... I have a 1009 myself, with a >1024 cyl. 330 Mb drive, and
my system works fine after I did what I describe in that message.

Dave

#: 12863 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  15:17:32
Sb: #12593-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565
To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617

Thanks, I will read that message and I will let you know if the trick(s)
work...

Yes, I have two ESDI 330 MB hard disks (Micropolis 1664-7)

#: 13033 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  17:23:51
Sb: #12863-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565 (X)

Describe your problem to me... I never saw the description earlier.

Dave

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13108 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  08:53:59
Sb: #13033-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565
To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617

My problem was a Fatal Error 0x69 when I was booting with Windows NT. Win NT
was not able to access my hard drives, due to a communication problem between
the Win NT driver and my WD1009 Controler. Sector translation was enabled on
the controler because my hard drives have more than 1024 cyl. To fix the
problem I had to create a "user defined" t(in the computer BIOS) for my hard
drives that fit with the tra of the WD1009 controler.

Louis

#: 13142 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  12:34:22
Sb: #13108-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565

Setting the user defined-type is what I did as well, which fixed my problems.
Are you still having other troubles, or is your system working as it should?

#: 12602 S3/Windows NT Setup
    16-Oct-92  14:14:36
Sb: #12286-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645
To: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565

I have been monitoring this thread and I wanted to ask if you were using the
PDK release of Windows NT or are you just collecting info before getting it?
 If the former, are you still geting the 0x00000069 error or something else at
this point.  If you are it sounds like the current release may have a problem
with the way your controller is doing its translation.  The next release
should be in your hands soon, so you may want to sit tight until then.....


Devlin

#: 12865 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  15:24:06
Sb: #12602-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: Louis Bouchard 72301,3565
To: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 (X)

using" or trying to use the PDK release of Windows NT (july 1992 release). I
an not just collexting info before getting it! I begin to be really tired of
the 0x69 error, and I'm beginning to think that I will wait for the release
version before porting my apps to windows NT. Any help will be greatly
appreciated.

Also I have a question: When the Next release of Win Nt is due ?

Best Regards

Louis

#: 12805 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  08:22:04
Sb: WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: David R. Johnson 72717,3617

David,

I can not see your message because it is labeled as 'PRIVATE'. If you would
like our support resend it and do not make it 'PRIVATE'.

Thanks, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 12858 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  14:11:02
Sb: #12805-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X)

re: private message

I noticed when I posted that message, it responded 'Posted Private', yet I've
got no idea why it did that, or even how to do that if I wanted to.  I'll try
to find the message and re-post it.

#: 12859 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  14:22:36
Sb: #12805-WD1009 ESDI Controller
Fm: David R. Johnson 72717,3617
To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X)

The message that inadvertantly got marked private simply asked:

Is the Beta CD shipping 'as we type'?  If not, how soon?

If I responded to a message that was private to me, would my reply be
automatically marked private?  I was responding to one of your other support
guys, who was responding to me...

Thanks,

Dave

#: 13194 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  20:39:19
Sb: fatal 0x00000069
Fm: Daniel Norton 76050,2204
To: All

I'm getting this error during boot.  Anybody recognize it?

Thanks!
--
Daniel

#: 12770 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  03:57:33
Sb: #12378-NT install Locks
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344

Issie,

<<(I still only have 4 Meg of memory)>>

PMJI: but if you mean that the PC only has 4 Mb of physicall RAM I'm not
surprised NT will not boot. The PDK requires 12 Mb with 16 preferred. The
final retail OS will require 8 Mb.

The PDK also requires a 20 Mb paging file with room to grow.

Art

#: 12857 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  14:09:25
Sb: #12770-NT install Locks
Fm: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art, I know that NT requires 8-16 Meg, but I thought that I could at least
install it now, with only 4 Meg, and then get another 4-12 Meg afterwards.
This obviously doesn't work, since The bootloader doesn't even install
properly.

Issie

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12931 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  03:52:59
Sb: #12857-NT install Locks
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344

Issie,

<<This obviously doesn't work, since The bootloader doesn't even install
properly.>>

I see what you want to do. I'm not too sure if it will work with a graphical
install since much of NT loads at boot time. It still might need more than the
4 Mb you have available. I *do* know you could install NT with the DOS2NT
method, but probably not get it to boot either.

As I understand it, Flexboot loads NTLDR which queries the system for specific
info then loads the OS. As the OS loads it demand loads system services in
waves. Error recovery is almost nonexistant in early portions of the load
process.

Art

#: 13049 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  20:41:09
Sb: #12931-NT install Locks
Fm: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art, that makes sense.  When I tried the NT2DOS install, everything seemed to
go OK, until I tried to boot NT.  Then I just got DOS booting up.

Thanks for the help

Issie

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13071 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  03:28:18
Sb: #13049-NT install Locks
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344

Issie,

<<When I tried the NT2DOS install, everything seemed to go OK, until I tried
to boot NT.  Then I just got DOS booting up.>>

Well when you get your extra memory and you can perform a graphical install I
recommend you go that route. The DOS2NT install actually copies more than is
needed. It's a generic install, while the graphical install is more machine
specific.

I'm a bit curious though. If only DOS would boot, I'd suspect that the
boot.ini file was not edited properly, or flexboot was not installed by the
DOS2NT batch file. There have been a very few people who seem to have had a
problem with the debug script modifying their hard disk's boot sector. I'd
have expected a very terse message or hex error code from the NT loader if
there was not enough memory to boot.

Art

#: 13141 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  12:31:26
Sb: #13071-NT install Locks
Fm: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art, Nope. There was not error message at all.  I edited the *.INI files
exactly as was mentioned in the docs.

Issie.

(Actually I was expecting a "not enough memory" type error.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13214 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  03:13:37
Sb: #13141-NT install Locks
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Issie Chaimovitch 70621,3344 (X)

Issie,

<<(Actually I was expecting a "not enough memory" type error.>>

So would I. Well let me know how it goed when you get the extra memory in.

Art

#: 13207 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  01:47:36
Sb: NT on SONY CDU535
Fm: Francois A. JOLLES 100063,775
To: ALL$

I have a DELL 486P/33 equiped with a SONY CDU535 CDROM connected through a SONY
CDB-240 Host Adapter Card. When I tried to install NT from the CDROM, the
system says that there is no CDROM attached. Is there anybody tried to use the
same combination with success ? Do I need to have special settings on the CDROM
or Adapter ? Thank you. Francois Jolles

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13218 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  03:34:28
Sb: #13207-NT on SONY CDU535
Fm: Steve Liberty 71450,2341
To: Francois A. JOLLES 100063,775

That CD-ROM is non-SCSI, and is therefore currently not supported by NT. There
is an alternate install program called DOS2NT (I think that is the name) which
may work for you, but once installed, NT will still not recognize your CD-ROM.
Sorry for giving you the bad news... Steve

#: 12768 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  03:38:02
Sb: Unable to run NT Setup
Fm: PC Actual 100041,1677
To: SYSOP (X)

We are a computer magazine from Spain. Microsoft send us the beta version of
SDK. No problems in the instalation but yes in the setup. We failed to start
up the NT Setup, a insuficient memory error appears in the screen and then,
the systems reboot. I'm sure that it's our (and silly) error.

Any suggestion?

TIA,

Jesus Diaz, PC Actual





There is 1 Reply.

#: 12802 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  08:08:34
Sb: #12768-Unable to run NT Setup
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: PC Actual 100041,1677

Jesus,

Do you have at least 12 Meg in your system?  If not, you need to upgrade.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 13225 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  04:18:42
Sb: #12802-Unable to run NT Setup
Fm: PC Actual 100041,1677
To: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225 (X)

Only 8! Arghhh! <g>

Lots of thanks, Jesus Diaz/PC Actual

#: 13226 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  04:37:27
Sb: auto logon
Fm: Hung Do 72040,2070
To: microsoft

Can anyone tell me how to make NT automatically logon ? I want to be able to
remote boot an NT machine.

Thanks.

#: 13160 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  15:32:00
Sb: DOS,OS2, & Windows NT
Fm: Chet Kloss 72311,743
To: sysop (X)

Is it possible to have DOS(with windows 3.1), OS2, and Windows NT
on the same computer ?

If so, is there a right and a wrong way to set it up

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13186 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  19:59:49
Sb: #13160-DOS,OS2, & Windows NT
Fm: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246
To: Chet Kloss 72311,743 (X)

See my reply to message 13085 from Howard Dunlavy.
Bob


There is 1 Reply.

#: 13231 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  05:25:51
Sb: #13186-DOS,OS2, & Windows NT
Fm: Chet Kloss 72311,743
To: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246

Howard, there doesn't seem to be a reply to #13085.
Is this the proper message number ? Or was it marked private ?
.....Chet

#: 13240 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  07:39:58
Sb: #12223-Windows NT Installation
Fm: David Ada-Winter 70541,263
To: Steve Hull [ECTI] 75030,1352

I had the same problem. Try to check if DOS was installed correctly.
If not reinstall DOS and then NT. This may work. Also, recheck the hw
configuration.

#: 13095 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  07:07:55
Sb: Installing NT for NEC 74
Fm: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615
To: Wayne Robinson 73060,702 (X)

Wayne,

What are the exact steps you followed?  When I try to install it says that it
cannot find a CD Rom and from then on I have to install with the dos command
(from dos).  Do you have a NEC 74?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

There are 2 Replies.

#: 13105 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  08:40:44
Sb: #13095-Installing NT for NEC 74
Fm: Wayne Robinson 73060,702
To: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615

No steps really - connected the NEC CDR-74 to the external SCSI port on the
95,  terminated the CD player, configured the device as SCSI device (0,5),
threw in the 3.5" boot diskette, booted and off I went.

Wayne

#: 13109 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  08:55:44
Sb: #13095-Installing NT for NEC 74
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615

Marc,

<<When I try to install it says that it cannot find a CD Rom and from then on
I have to install with the dos command (from dos).>>

It's not the CD-ROM drive that is the problem. It's your SCSI card the CD-ROM
drive is connected to. You need a supported SCSI card and drive (listed in the
hardware compatability list) to get the graphical install to work.

If your SCSI card is made by Trantor they have beta drivers available. You can
get the driver from their BBS. The driver has to be installed after NT is
installed via DOS2NT. It will only support data commands on your drive, audio
will not work. The NEC drives are a SCSI-1 interface while NT only supports
SCSI-2 audio commands.

Art

#: 13241 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  07:45:33
Sb: #12300-Installing NT for NEC 74
Fm: David Ada-Winter 70541,263
To: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615

I did but I did not experience difficulties, at least not with that part. I
followed the Alternate Ways To Install (or something like that), the one with
dos2nt and it worked. The CD drive was connected via LPT1 using a SCSI to
PARALLEL adapter.
--Dave

#: 12922 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  23:42:30
Sb: #12446-UltraStor 12F Controller
Fm: Brad Hines 76520,3314
To: Michael Klosson 70334,1064

 I had a problem with my Ultrastor 12F controller that went away when I got
the most recent ROM upgrade for it.  I was getting error 0x00000069 until I
got the upgrade.

Curiously, I got the ROM upgrade because I was trying to use the Ultrastor
32-bit FastDisk driver for Windows 3.1 (you need this in order to have 32-bit
disk access if you have >1024 cylinders).  If you need a ROM upgrade, the
Ultrastor FastDisk driver prints out a message telling you this and Win 3.1
boots without 32-bit disk access (so this is a good way to find out if you
need the upgrade).

A nice side-effect of all this was that, once I installed the updated ROM's,
Windows NT installed and ran just fine.

Ultrastor sells the ROM upgrade for about $20.  Or, if you have access to a
PROM programmer, they have the hex files on their BBS (this is also where the
FastDisk driver is avaiable) at 510-623-9091.  This hex files worked just
great for me.

Hope this helps,

Brad

#: 13242 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  07:52:16
Sb: #12446-UltraStor 12F Controller
Fm: David Ada-Winter 70541,263
To: Michael Klosson 70334,1064

I had the exact same problem with an UltraStor 12F card. After backing it up I
redid the low level format with the 63 SECTORS/TRACK mapping mode and then
reinstalled DOS and NT. It is time consuming but may just work for you.
--Dave

#: 13084 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  04:44:17
Sb: TMC-1680
Fm: George  Wilk 100113,2621
To: Steve Fait 75300,3143 (X)

Steve,
I added FD1800.SYS from today's FD1800.ZIP into my drivers directory
during a fresh install. This did not cure the boot problem but
delayed the ***FATAL System Error 0x00000069 and
***Phase 1 I/O initialisation failure message for about 25 secs.
Previous it was almost instantaneous.

Any further suggestions. My configuration is:

55Mhz 486 with 32 MB memory
Create Labs Inc CD and soundblaster pro board
  (provided by Microsoft UK as part of Network Developer program)
2 serial , 1 parallel port
AMIBIOS 12/12/91
NE2000 Ethernet card at IRQ 5
ET4000 based VGA card
86-89 Future Domain Corp
SCSI ROM BIOS 1800 AT V2.0 on the TMC 1680 board
SCSI 7 LUN 0 CONNER CP3500 -540MB -3.5 firmware Rev2525
512 Bytes per sector (S)

Thanks
George.

#: 13247 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  08:18:22
Sb: #13084-TMC-1680
Fm: Carl Byington 74040,1156
To: George  Wilk 100113,2621

If that conner drive on scsi 7 is a hard disk, try moving it to scsi 0. I
thought that 7 was reserved for tape drives by the future domain bios.

#: 12825 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  10:50:09
Sb: #12531-0x69 error
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541

Robert,

This is a phase one initialization error, which happens when Windows NT tries
to talk with the HD controller. It can be caused by any number of things.
Things to try:

* If the card allows, slow down the DMA transfer rate.

* Make sure both ends of the SCSI bus are terminated.

* Make sure there are no IRQ, or memory address conflicts.

* Make sure you're aren't using a faulty or un-supported driver i.e. the FD
1680 SCSI controller is supported, but there is a problem with that driver
which will be fixed and posted on WinNT, Lib 2.

* Make sure that your card is listed in the hardware compatibiltiy list which
was provided with your release notes.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 13245 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  07:55:25
Sb: #12531-0x69 error
Fm: David Ada-Winter 70541,263
To: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541 (X)

I had it, too. It may be your SCSI adapter card.
--Dave

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13248 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  08:22:39
Sb: #13245-0x69 error
Fm: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541
To: David Ada-Winter 70541,263

Thanks for your reply. All is well since I switched to a BusTek card. I was
even able to do the graphical install!

#: 12836 S3/Windows NT Setup
    19-Oct-92  11:41:57
Sb: #12424-0x0000069 InitI/O Error
Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642
To: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541

Robert,

>>I since changed from IDE to SCSi and now I have that error

What SCSI controller do you have? I'm curious whether you have an unsupported
card and it's causing the initialization problem.

Regards, Sam Karroum [MS]

#: 13249 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  08:23:32
Sb: #12836-0x0000069 InitI/O Error
Fm: Robert Reinstein 76270,1541
To: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 (X)

Hi Sam,

I had the 0x69 when I was using an Always card. Once I switched to a BusTek all
was well.

#: 13257 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  09:21:30
Sb: CDPlayer
Fm: Howard Myers 76711,462
To: Microsoft

I recently received the October release.  Unfortunately, I can no longer get
the CDPlayer to work.  It detects the drive (and in fact will eject the disk),
but constantly gets read errors when trying to read it.

The install program obviously read from it okay.

The install brochure that came with the disk says that CDAUDIO.SYS must be
installed, but isn't by default.  Unfortunately, it doesn't tell you how to
install it (I'm assuming this is my problem).

How do I get CDAUDIO.SYS to load on statup?

Thanks!

#: 13270 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  11:04:34
Sb: Install problems
Fm: Meinhard Schmidt 100020,2762
To: all

i tried and tried ... but there was no chance to finish the install procedure.
NT refused to copy the files from the cd-rom (toshiba), subdirectory 'I386' to
the HD (100 MB, formatted by NT). My machine is a 386-33 with 16 MB RAM. Who
has an idea to help me? rgds   Meinhard

#: 13272 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  11:18:11
Sb: CONFIG.???
Fm: Kevin Kieller 73047,1110
To: ALL

Can someone explain exactly what versions of config.??? and autoexec.??? are
used and when.  I installed NT on drive D: and drive C: is my boot drive.  I
see config.###, config.nt and config.sys on c:\.

In order to try to increase the number of file handles available to DOS
applications I modified some of these files; now I can not run WIN 3.1 or some
DOS applications.

Any ideas would be apprecaited.

#: 13289 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  13:52:39
Sb: Installation Question
Fm: Jimmy Truong 75430,345
To: ALL

Hello, I am installing Windows NT using the alternative method, i.e. DOS2NT.
After rebooting the system, Windows NT stopped with an error message "Windows
NT has found only 580K of low memory.  600k of low memory is required to run
Windows NT". Question: I have 16MB of memory in the system.  Why did NT not
boot up?  What can I do to boot NT Portable Bootloader? Thanks, Jimmy

#: 13297 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  14:34:54
Sb: Can't install beta sdk
Fm: Dave Kolb 72410,407
To: Dave Kolb


I can't install the new WNT Beta from the network.

I'm running IBM DOS 5.0 on a PS/2 90 w/ 16M and 400M SCSI.

I boot a dos floppy and access a Netware drive w/ the cdrom image and change
to the i386 dir:

  w:
  cd sdk_nt\i386
  winnt

I enter w:\sdk_nt\i386 as the nt source.

I enter c:\winnt as the nt destination.

It looks like everything goes fine - files are copied to my blank diskette
which is later booted.

The diskette boots OK, detects my IBM scsi adapter checks the disk and then
says:

----------------------------------------------------------------------Setup is
unable to locate the hard drive partition prepared by the MS-DOS portion of
setup.

When you run the MS-DOS Windows NT setup program, you must specify a
destination directory on a drive that is supported by Windows NT.
----------------------------------------------------------------------Problem is I did I think.

There was a dir on C: called $WIN_NT$.~LS that had a lot of files in it.

What the problem?

Thanks,

#: 13102 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  07:47:54
Sb: SDK INSTALL
Fm: JOE REICHMAN 70641,1503
To: Sysop (X)

I have not as yet gotten a CD ROM player to install the SDK N.T.,  however I
do have a tape backup system (COLORDADO 250) is it possible to copy the SDK
N.T. AND OPERATING SYSTEM onto a TAPE and intall from there
thankx much, joe

#: 13308 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  16:10:01
Sb: #13102-SDK INSTALL
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: JOE REICHMAN 70641,1503

Joe,

Take a look at the "DOS2NT.BAT" file on the CD.  All it does is execute a
debug script and then xcopy a default Windows NT tree.  You could accomplish
the same thing manually via tape.  It would *not* be possible to run the
graphical installation from tape, though.

Regards,
   -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 13309 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  16:17:54
Sb: INSTALL ON "D" DRIVE
Fm: JOE REICHMAN 70641,1503
To: Sysop (X)

I just purchased the WINDOWS NT OS I was told it needs 100 Megs. Is it
possible to install just the WINDOW NT OS on the "C" Drive and the C Compiler,
Masm the Runtime Libraries for the compiler and WINDOWS On the "D" drive
thankx                           Joe Reichman

#: 13325 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  21:30:48
Sb: Installation Requirement
Fm: Adam Krantz 71461,757
To: ALL

Having just got a CD-ROM drive, I was anxious to install the July release of
NT, but I wanted to be sure I could still use my machine fairly reliably with
it installed since I don't have another to use.  I have
8M of Ram and a 120M hard drive.  Is this enough?

#: 13085 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  05:27:06
Sb: OS/2 & WinNT & DOS Setup
Fm: Howard Dunlavy 76337,1151
To: All

I want to install both OS/2 2.0 and the pre-beta version of Windows NT on my
computer.  Microsoft recommends NOT trying to configure a computer so that you
can switch between both DOS and OS/2.

I am wondering if anyone has done this.  If you have, is it better to use the
Dual Boot or Boot Manager setup for OS/2?

-Howard

#: 13185 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  19:59:45
Sb: #13085-OS/2 & WinNT & DOS Setup
Fm: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246
To: Howard Dunlavy 76337,1151

Hello Howard,
I successfully installed both NT and OS/2 2.0 and can go between them and DOS
at will.  This is what I did.

1. First I installed WINNT from the CD/ROM using the graphical installer.
Although this may not be relevant, I partitioned my disk into two partitions.
NT I directed to the D drive, although the boot stuff ends up in the root of C.
NT has its own scheme for the user to select NT or "previous operating system"
(DOS).  As installed, it defaults to NT in 30 seconds unless you arrow down to
the Previous Operating Sstem line and hit enter.  I found a text file in the
root directory called BOOT.INI and changed the default for which OS to boot and
also lowered the wait time to 5 seconds, so that I get DOS as the default
unless I do something in 5 seconds.  I also ran the program, ?.EXE, in NT to
change the path that NT uses for its Paging file from the root of C to the root
of D.  I also changed my DOS Autoexec.bat to erase the NT paging file, so it
doesn't take up 23MB except when NT is running.

2. Next I installed OS/2, and chose the dual boot.  The OS/2 user I talked to
whose opinion I trust advised away from the Boot Manager. for reasons
completely independent of NT.  After OS/2 installation, OS/2 boots up on power
on.  There is an OS/2 app called DUAL BOOT that will switch over to DOS booting
so that next boot up DOS is loaded.  There is a DOS application invokd with
\os2\boot /os2 which gets me back to OS/2.  Actually, it's not DOS that is
booted, but rather the NT startup loader, which gives me the choice of NT or
the previous (DOS) described above.

3. To get to OS/2 you have to first boot into DOS.  Once in DOS you can run
\os2\boot /os2.  I can't go directly from NT to OS/2 without passing DOS.  But
I can still go directly to Jail without passing GO, so I have my link with the
past.

Bob

#: 13327 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  21:49:42
Sb: #13185-OS/2 & WinNT & DOS Setup
Fm: Howard Dunlavy 76337,1151
To: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246

Robert,

Thanks for the response.  In the OS/2 forum someone pointed me to an article
in the October issue of Windows magazine that describes how to install DOS,
NT, OS/2 1.3 and OS/2 2.0.

Unfortunately my computer died yesterday and I am waiting for some replacement
parts.

-Howard

#: 13048 S3/Windows NT Setup
    20-Oct-92  20:26:51
Sb: NT Loader Problem
Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627
To: anyone

After installing NT I boot up under NT just fine but is I try to switch back
to DOS I get Non-system disk or disk error, replace and press any key when
ready If I boot from a diskette and do a SYS C: I have no problems booting
DOS. Any ideas?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13080 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  04:07:50
Sb: #13048-NT Loader Problem
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627

ken,

<<After installing NT I boot up under NT just fine but is I try to switch back
to DOS I get Non-system disk or disk error, replace and press any key when
ready If I boot from a diskette and do a SYS C: I have no problems booting
DOS. Any ideas?>>

It sounds to me like the boot.ini file might not have been edited properly.
Take a look at the entry for the DOS entry. It should look something like
.. c:\ = "MS-DOS" ... The thing to make sure of is that the drive letter is
correct. Perhaps you changed it when you editied the file from a DOS2NT
install. You should also look and make sure that the file bootsect.dos is
located on your C:\ directory.

Art

#: 13175 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  18:47:28
Sb: #13080-NT Loader Problem
Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

BOOT.INI is correct and BOOTSECT.DOS is in the root directory.  The program
BOOTSECT that I downloaded "Can't read the partition information"!! I'm going
to check the BOOTSECT program out.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13215 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  03:15:04
Sb: #13175-NT Loader Problem
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627

Ken,

<<The program BOOTSECT that I downloaded "Can't read the partition
information"!! I'm going to check the BOOTSECT program out.>>

That sounds ominous. What type of disk controller and hard disk do you have?

Art

#: 13291 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  13:57:28
Sb: #13215-NT Loader Problem
Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

I have an IDE controller and a MAXSTOR 340mb drive (brand new). I have traced
through the BOOTSECT program and I think I have a BIOS problem (Chips &
Technology).  When the program issues int 13 to read the boot sector there is
NOT an error indicated (carry flag is not set) but the number of sectors read
(in AL) is x'50' which the program takes as an error (it only requested 1
sector).  Same thing happens on a write. I am going to do a littlemore
research and then I think I will need to check with C&T; are they on
CompuServe?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13335 S3/Windows NT Setup
    23-Oct-92  03:14:42
Sb: #13291-NT Loader Problem
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627

Ken,

<<Same thing happens on a write. I am going to do a littlemore research and
then I think I will need to check with C&T; are they on CompuServe?>>

Well, I'm glad to hear that you have at least identified the problem, and it's
cause. I don't think C&T has a forum here. They might visit the IBMHW forums
and you could ask the sysop there.

If you can identify the paticular bios and motherboard you might want to
upload a bug report to MS. They have a form in lib 1. That way maybe they can
fix it on their end in future releases.

Art

#: 13122 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  10:20:27
Sb: #13048-NT Loader Problem
Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642
To: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627 (X)

Which method did you use, CD-based or DOS2NT?

Sam Karroum [MS]



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13176 S3/Windows NT Setup
    21-Oct-92  18:48:57
Sb: #13122-NT Loader Problem
Fm: Kenneth Gladden 72301,2627
To: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 (X)

I used the CD-based method.

#: 13213 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  02:41:39
Sb: Emergency Disk
Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546
To: Sysop (X)

I find myself needing the expected functionality of the emergency disk.  I
installed a device driver that did not take to NT.  My machine boots with an
uncaught kernel mode exception 1e.  So, I want to recover my previous state.
How can I do this with the emergency disk (as created by the October release).
It doesn't boot, so what good is it?

Marc Singer -- Straylight Software




There is 1 Reply.

#: 13220 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  03:49:18
Sb: #13213-Emergency Disk
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Marc Singer 72130,2546

Marc,

<<I find myself needing the expected functionality of the emergency disk.  I
installed a device driver that did not take to NT.  My machine boots with an
uncaught kernel mode exception 1e.  So, I want to recover my previous state.
How can I do this with the emergency disk (as created by the October release).
It doesn't boot, so what good is it?>>

All you need to do is boot DOS and rename the device driver to a different
name. NT will not find it to load, so... At least I was able to do this with
the Trantor SCSI driver, and NT then booted allowing me to use regedit.

Now in the July release the emergency boot disk functionality is not fully
usable. Are you sure you have the October release? As far as I know it will not
be shipping untill the end of the month. Your CD should have the date of the
release on it.

Art

#: 13301 S3/Windows NT Setup
    22-Oct-92  15:04:15
Sb: #13220-Emergency Disk
Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

I have more information on this.  First, I am using the October release. The
emergency disk support appears to be complete except for the fact that it
requires that the CD-ROM be accessible to Windows NT.  I dicovered that the
setup diskette created by Windows NT when you use the DOS-based setup has an
option to do recovery.  Press R at the first prompt and it should recover, but
it returns an error because the trantor device is not supported.  Argh.

The second problem was that I (foolishly) put the NT system in a partition
inaccessible to DOS.  This makes it impossible to make modifications to the
system without NT.  Perhaps on the sixth installation, I will be able to work.

By the way, I would still like to know how I am supposed to use the Emergency
Repair disk without one of the supported SCSI adaptors.  Anyone have an idea?

Marc Singer -- Straylight Software



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13337 S3/Windows NT Setup
    23-Oct-92  03:22:20
Sb: #13301-Emergency Disk
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Marc Singer 72130,2546

Marc,

<<First, I am using the October release.>>

Well I don't know if I should offer you my condolences or adulation since you
have the Oct release before I do. <g>

<<By the way, I would still like to know how I am supposed to us the Emergency
Repair disk without one of the supported SCSI adaptors.  Anyone have an
idea?>>

Well, since I don't have the release i can only offer possibilities. But if
the emergency disk has a editable list of drivers to load (maybe with a
regedit utility, or if it is an ascii file) you could add the current Trantor
driver. I have a Trantor driver working with the July release. Or if the boot
disk has an editable file to select the NT partition like the July boot disk
(for install) had you could maybe change the partition and drive to use you
local (hard drive) version of NT (so no CD is needed). You could xperiment
with these type of solutions...

Art

#: 13360 S3/Windows NT Setup
    23-Oct-92  08:41:10
Sb: NT NOT
Fm: Pete Fisher 76506,3134
To: Sysop


Hi, as will be obvious from my questions, I'm quite an amateur to Windows
development, but am interested and have bought a lot of software and a CD-ROM
(NEC CDR-74) unit.

I currently have 2 CD's purchased from Microsoft:

1) Developer Network, Preliminary Release - which works fine in my Windows
   3.1 environment.

2) MS WIN 32 SDK for Windows NT, Preliminary Version July 1992 -
   which I'm confused about how to install. Does it have NT on it,
   or do I need a separate disk?

I'm running DOS 5, QEM 6.+, & Stacker 2.0, and my non-stacked actual physical
hard disk space is very limited, so I'll want to keep as much on the CD as
possible. Any tips?

Thanks for the help!

                       Pete Fisher




#: 12605 S4/MS-DOS/Win3.x Apps
    16-Oct-92  14:30:24
Sb: #11948-Word 4 Win install
Fm: Oscar M. Herrera 71174,1204
To: Scott LaFond 71370,533 (X)

Steve,
I rely had no problem loading it at all.
if you have flex boot running you might want to try installing under win31 and
the new icon it from nt.  I just tried it again an had no problem.

Oscar


#: 13047 S4/MS-DOS/Win3.x Apps
    20-Oct-92  20:15:06
Sb: Bug running DOS Epsilon
Fm: Eric V. Smith 70621,3367
To: sysop (X)

I assume this has already been reported, but I'll submit it anyway.

I am running the DOS version of Epsilon 6.0.  If I exit Epsilon (Ctrl-C
Ctrl-X), anything I type ahead until cmd.exe regains control is lost.  This is
the same behaviour as under DOS.  When I re-execute Epsilon, all of the
characters that I had typed ahead when I was exiting the PREVIOUS run of
Epsilon get typed into the buffer, as if I had just typed them.

Hope this isn't too confusing.

#: 13005 S4/MS-DOS/Win3.x Apps
    20-Oct-92  12:42:45
Sb: Epsilon
Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546
To: Sysop (X)

The October release runs my DOS & OS/2 applications much better than before.
Still, it cannot run the background process for Epsilon 6.0 for DOS, nor
Epsilon 5.0 for OS/2.  Do you want to know about all of the applications I
have that do not run properly?

#: 13159 S4/MS-DOS/Win3.x Apps
    21-Oct-92  15:29:42
Sb: #13005-Epsilon
Fm: Cohagan 74375,313
To: Marc Singer 72130,2546 (X)

Marc-
  Is the "October" release available yet - or do you have a pre-pre-release
copy?

Bill

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13211 S4/MS-DOS/Win3.x Apps
    22-Oct-92  02:41:30
Sb: #13159-Epsilon
Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546
To: Cohagan 74375,313 (X)

I got the October release on Monday, but I do not know the status of the
release mailing.




#: 12658 S5/32-bit Windows Apps
    17-Oct-92  07:44:45
Sb: #12291-winnt better w/EISA?
Fm: John Richardson 70541,672
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

Actually, the card does not. The device driver has the capability to
copy the data when an address is above 16meg. There are only 24 address
lines on the ISA bus, so only the first 16 meg of memory is directly
available via master mode. On the other hand, EISA has available a full
32 bits of address and can address 4G.

If you have a non-mastering controller that uses the motherboard
DMA, then newer EISA machines such as the INTEL allow addresses above
16 Meg by defining additional address bits for the DMA page registers.
By using the EISA "fly-by-mode" with updated software drivers, decent
performance can be had from an ISA SCSI controller if it can support the DMA
slave cycles properly.

                                                        JR


#: 12681 S5/32-bit Windows Apps
    17-Oct-92  12:05:03
Sb: How do you get LIB list?
Fm: Bob Byron 70107,1734
To: All

I was wondering how to get a listing via LIB.  I was trying to list the
libraries in my \mstools\lib directory.  When I tried the command:

    LIB -VERBOSE MPR.LIB
            and
    LIB -LIST MPR.LIB

all I got back was the "MPR.DEF" listed a couple of dozen times.  Now detail
what-so-ever.  So, how do you do a simple library listing?

Thanks,

Bob

#: 13096 S5/32-bit Windows Apps
    21-Oct-92  07:13:59
Sb: Linking DLL _main reques
Fm: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615
To: Microsoft Support

I have a msdos dll which I recompiled using CL386 for windows NT.   The
compile works perfectly (no errors nor warnings).  When I try to link using
the example link commands from the samples (DEB sample), I get a link error
stating that _main is not found and requested from CTROS.  I do not have a
_main or main, I have a LibMain and have declared that as the entry point.
Can you help me with this.  What is _main requested?  Do I need to change the
link statement?  Thanks for your assistance.

#: 13098 S5/32-bit Windows Apps
    21-Oct-92  07:17:31
Sb: RAND_MAX
Fm: Marc Goetschalckx 74160,1615
To: Microsoft Support

I am porting to windows NT and I have found that the RAND_MAX constant in the
new header files is still set to a 16 bit value,  i.e. the largest random
number that can be generated is 32767.  Is this correct?  Under a 32 bit
compiler much larger random numbers should be generated which would make the
random number generator of a much higher quality.  So my question is, is
RAND_MAX wrongly defined in the header file and are larger random numbers
generated, or is RAND_MAX currently correct and are only small random numbers
generated?  In the latter case, that is a bug in the compiler, which should be
corrected before going to beta.  I hope this helps you and I appreciate your
help too.

#: 13004 S5/32-bit Windows Apps
    20-Oct-92  12:22:54
Sb: NT EXE structure
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Harald Pitro 100024,2662

>Who can helps me to find the new structure of 32-bit-EXE/DLL files for
>Windows >NT?

A message posted in the Tools section of the MSWIN32 forum will help you find
the new structure.

>Thanks

>Harald

BTW, the docs for the Beta version of NT will also have that information.

Goodluck,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 13144 S5/32-bit Windows Apps
    21-Oct-92  12:50:48
Sb: #13004-NT EXE structure
Fm: Harald Pitro 100024,2662
To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 (X)

Krishnan,

Thanks for your help. But I cannot find the proper message. Can you help me
again?

Thanks and Greats

Harald




#: 12940 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps
    20-Oct-92  06:08:35
Sb: Where to find POSIX.FAQ
Fm: Alain Lapierre 71055,1150
To:  71075,3222 (X)

Thank you for your reply Krishnan, I tried to find the POSIX.FAQ file in the
OS/2, POSIX Apps. section and couldn't find it ! Can you verify if it's there
and if so, tell me how to find it. It's probably because I'm new to
CompuServe.
        Thank You !

There is 1 Reply.


#: 12965 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps
    20-Oct-92  09:21:23
Sb: #12940-Where to find POSIX.FAQ
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Alain Lapierre 71055,1150

>Thank you for your reply Krishnan, I tried to find the POSIX.FAQ file in the
>OS/2, POSIX Apps. section and couldn't find it ! Can you verify if it's there
>and if so, tell me how to find it. It's probably because I'm new to
>CompuServe. >        Thank You !

Message# 11502 and 11503 in the POSIX section is what you are looking for. The
subject of the message is POSIX.FAQ.

Goodluck,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 13161 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps
    21-Oct-92  15:45:25
Sb: #12965-Where to find POSIX.FAQ
Fm: Louis Kahn 70473,1012
To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 (X)

Those messages are no longer available in the active message base, what archive
file has this info.?
Thanks,
Louis

#: 13111 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps
    21-Oct-92  08:57:44
Sb: #12323-Running OS2 app
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Dan Sullivan 76327,1534

Please follow #11890.

Thanks,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 13230 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps
    22-Oct-92  05:16:59
Sb: #13111-Running OS2 app
Fm: Dan Sullivan 76327,1534
To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 (X)

11890 has scrolled off, please repeat it.

Thanks in advance Dan

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13253 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps
    22-Oct-92  08:58:52
Sb: #13230-Running OS2 app
Fm: Robin Wilson 70703,2221
To: Dan Sullivan 76327,1534

Would it be in the zip files under winnt archives?
Thanks for your help.

#: 13112 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps
    21-Oct-92  08:57:49
Sb: #12520-Running OS2 app
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Robin Wilson 70703,2221

>I also have a problem in this area, when I try to run a win16 or os2 app i am
>dumped back into NT... >Any help would be helpfull >thanks

Please follow message # 11890.

Thanks,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 13252 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps
    22-Oct-92  08:53:12
Sb: Running OS2 app
Fm: Robin Wilson 70703,2221
To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222

thanks

#: 13359 S6/OS/2, POSIX Apps
    23-Oct-92  08:16:00
Sb: SQL 4.2 Install on WinNT
Fm: James McDaniel 71075,415
To: all

I posted the file SQLOS2.TXT in section 1 of the Library.  This text file is a
section from the SQL Server SDK for Windows NT release notes.  It states that
installing SQL Server for OS/2 version 4.2 on the OS/2 subsystem of the July
pre-release of Windows NT often fails, and it contains a "manual install"
procedure for completing the install by hand.

Sincerely,
James McDaniel
Microsoft SQL Server Support




#: 13017 S7/Utilities/Applets
    20-Oct-92  14:12:35
Sb: #12076-utilities/applets
Fm: Sanjeev Katariya [MS] 71075,637
To: matt maberino 70162,1772

Matt,

There is no file PIFEDIT.EXE or PIFEDIT.HLP in the July prerelease of Windows
NT, but the October beta includes these.  They are located in the
<NTPATH>\SYSTEM directory.


#: 13022 S7/Utilities/Applets
    20-Oct-92  15:30:27
Sb: Music CD Bug
Fm: Sanjeev Katariya [MS] 71075,637
To: Daniel Dunkel 76550,716

Daniel,

   There is currently no problem report about this specific problem you are
seeing. There is one issue, however, regarding the hard drive light flickering
while the CD is playing, due to the fact that when the CD is scanned for
position (every 5 seconds or so) the hard drive receives the command as well.
Are you experiencing this behavior as well as the halting music?
   Also, please check the CD-ROM and hard drive for a possible interrupt
conflict. If the hard drive were attempting to use the same IRQ as the CD-ROM,
the resulting conflict could cause bad behavior on one of the devices.

#: 12896 S7/Utilities/Applets
    19-Oct-92  18:53:46
Sb: NT Utilities
Fm: Rick Brant 70322,2160
To: all

  I am helping to develop a reports system based in C to run against very
large (Maybe up to a Gig).  We are currently using VMS and Windows on DOS.
The reports are currently running on VMS returning the results to the PC.  We
are utilizing the VMS sort/merge facility to do some of our record selection.
I would rather use strait C but due to time constaints we went with the
utility.  My question is... are their going to be any such utilities delivered
with NT?  Also does anyone have source for a great sort\ merge facility???
Thanks

#: 13133 S7/Utilities/Applets
    21-Oct-92  11:39:54
Sb: #12896-NT Utilities
Fm: Thomas Curran 72210,2424
To: Rick Brant 70322,2160 (X)

Rick,
I think you should be speaking to the Software AG people (ADABAS).  I am not
sure how "official" this is, but maybe they can give you more info. If youre
interested we can do a private excvhange with the developers out there. (I am
working on something too!)

#: 13168 S7/Utilities/Applets
    21-Oct-92  17:29:36
Sb: Postscrpt viewer in Lib4
Fm: Jeff Lundblad 73537,1203
To: all

I have uploaded a beta version of a postscript viewer. The postscript
"interpreter" has been appended to my shareware ASCII file viewer. The program
as a whole features a File-Manager type file open interface, as well as
printing, file find (grep subset), and text find.

The "interpreter" processes text, text positioning, and page ejects for the
July NT pre-release files. The "interpreted" file can be printed on a
non-postscript printer with adequate results (there is no attempt to match
fonts). In fact, I get more information out of at least one of the .C00 files
this way than I do sending the postscript file itself to my HPIIIp with a
postscript cart.

This is a Windows 3.1 program! I have not actually tried this version under NT
because my disk that had NT on it died and hasn't been fixed yet. It should
work under Windows 3.0 if you have SHELL.DLL - but I haven't tried that lately
either (same story).

Look for LI13T5.ZIP in Lib 4.

This is a beta. I'm open to feedback.

Jeff.

#: 13179 S7/Utilities/Applets
    21-Oct-92  19:21:43
Sb: Tape Backup
Fm: Rick Brant 70322,2160
To: all

  I have recently aquired a TTI CTS-8510 8mm Tape unit.  It emulates either an
Exabyte EXB-8200/EXB-8500, a DEC TK50Z, an IBM 2.3 GB or the native TTI 8510.
In each mode there are several additional options Even byte disconnect, parity
check, short file marks etc...  Are any of these drives supported under NT?
What settings are appropraite?  I set it up as an EXB-8500 and attempted to use
the Backup in the Disk Admin applet. It would backup 4 file (the first 4 of any
selection) and then report a fatal error.  No help in the logs....  Any help
out here ?? Thanks.

#: 13304 S7/Utilities/Applets
    22-Oct-92  15:38:14
Sb: #12141-mep tabbing
Fm: Ray Mann [Microsoft] 71075,637
To: Bob Bogardus 76470,3066

Bob,

  I am not positive exactly what behavior you are seeing.  Do you mean that
when you attempt to insert a tab into a line of text, the cursor merely jumps
ahead without inserting the tab?

#: 12901 S7/Utilities/Applets
    19-Oct-92  19:38:09
Sb: Capturing Screens
Fm: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247
To: Microsoft Support

I'm completing an article on Windows NT, and would like to capture
a series of screens.  Is HIJAAK compatible with Windows NT, or are
there any undocumented utilities I can use to create a .PCX file of
a screen?  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Louis Columbus

#: 13305 S7/Utilities/Applets
    22-Oct-92  15:38:18
Sb: #12901-Capturing Screens
Fm: Ray Mann [Microsoft] 71075,637
To: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247 (X)

Louis,

  I am aware of no screen capture utility currntly shipping with Windows NT,
nor of any testing done with third-party screen capture utilities such as
HIJAAK.

                                          Ray Mann, Windows NT Beta Support

#: 13306 S7/Utilities/Applets
    22-Oct-92  15:38:24
Sb: cd player
Fm: Ray Mann [Microsoft] 71075,637
To: Dan Barrett 75070,2231

Dan,

  I have been looking into your problem here, and I have found a CD with an ID
that starts with a letter.  Unfortunately, I was unable to reproduce your
problem; the CD is playing right now.  Perhaps that entry in CDPLAYER.INI is
invalid, or maybe the player is actually being confused by a physical problem
on the disk.  Also, there have been some code changes in the October build of
the Windows NT Beta, perhaps they will make the difference - that is what I am
running.

                                  Ray Mann, Windows NT Beta Support

#: 12923 S7/Utilities/Applets
    19-Oct-92  23:42:35
Sb: #12368-Emacs for WinNT
Fm: Brad Hines 76520,3314
To: Alex Bronstein 75070,2452

There is a port of Gnu Emacs to OS/2 that is available on the Internet on
ftp-os2.nmsu.edu. I have downloaded it but haven't tried running it under NT
yet, because I only have FAT partitions at the moment, and this port has a
number of filenames that are longer than 8.3 (they tell you to install it on
an HPFS partition, and that you have to use the OS/2-
 specific version of pkunzip to unzip it).

In theory, though, it should work.  I have one of my OS/2-fanatic friends
looking into whether it is possible to coerce it into working from a FAT
partition.

Also, the source is available on ftp-os2, so if there are any truly bold souls
out there...

--Brad Also at >INTERNET:[e-mail] (I read this every day as
opposed to CIS, which I check every few days).

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12938 S7/Utilities/Applets
    20-Oct-92  05:26:19
Sb: #12923-Emacs for WinNT
Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725
To: Brad Hines 76520,3314

Would that, perhaps, be the same version which is ported to OS/2 2.0? (The
same code file, perhaps?)

The OS2DF1 forum has the code for downloading. That's if you want to spend
about 1 1/2 hours at 2400 BPS . . . .

Someone else has done a port for the MicroEmacs to NT. Atleast it works with a
FAT file system.

Have you tried NTFS (on a second partition/drive) rather than HPFS? I'm just
curious . . . This is not a suggestion but a question.

#: 13329 S7/Utilities/Applets
    23-Oct-92  00:13:12
Sb: #12938-Emacs for WinNT
Fm: Brad Hines 76520,3314
To: Al Longyear 70165,725 (X)

Yes, this is the OS/2 2.0 version of Emacs.

I haven't tried it on NTFS yet.  I think when the October release comes
(hopefully sometime in the next week), I'll reformat my NT volume to NTFS and
then try it out.

--Brad

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13342 S7/Utilities/Applets
    23-Oct-92  05:30:19
Sb: #13329-Emacs for WinNT
Fm: Al Longyear 70165,725
To: Brad Hines 76520,3314

I have finally met a brave soul <g>.

#: 12939 S7/Utilities/Applets
    20-Oct-92  05:43:31
Sb: #12368-Emacs for WinNT
Fm: Glenn Ford 70414,321
To: Alex Bronstein 75070,2452

Alex,
       I grabbed EmacsNT from WINNT library area.  Forget which library.
       Use IBMFF (go ibmff) and keyword on EMACS and {WIN}NT

       glenn




#: 12636 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  19:14:13
Sb: #12536-NEC CD & which ISA card
Fm: Mitchell C. Sharp 76376,332
To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X)

Thanks. I will check into the 1540.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 12642 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  20:48:18
Sb: #12636-NEC CD & which ISA card
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: Mitchell C. Sharp 76376,332 (X)

no problem. happy i could help.

Darren

#: 12663 S8/H/W Compatibility
    17-Oct-92  09:09:54
Sb: #12352-Soundblaster CD-ROM
Fm: John A. Gallagher 74216,270
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X)

Terence, Thanks for your reply. I -do- understand your position and hope that
I will be greeted with some good news in the not too distant future. I am more
frustrated with Creative Labs than with Microsoft. I have been trying to get
information from them with calls since their BBS does not seem to provide a
means for leaving messages<!> I have had difficulty reaching them, have left
messages without getting a response, etc. I know many people trying to make
informed decisions on purchases, especially considering the rapid advances in
CD-ROM technology. Many feel -forced- to purchase a non state of the art drive
such as the Toshiba 3301 since it is at least supported by both you and IBM
with its OS/2 2.0. They feel that they will likely wind up purchasing a new
drive within a year once support becomes clear. I already have the Creative
Labs drive, which I would like to use until things "shake out" but am becoming
more and more frustrated. I fear that soon I will not even be able install
products with it. Again, thanks for your concern. I hope that -everone- will
become more forthcoming once the beta appears.

#: 12649 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  22:31:09
Sb: Current List?
Fm: Mark E. Snyder 71670,2724
To: Anyone

This may be a dumb question, but where is the current list of supported
hardware?

Has it been, and/or when will it be updated to include the supported hardware
for the October release?

FYI, I can understand all the non-disclosure stuff.  Anyone who has ever dealt
with major hardware/software firms understands.  But can you at least tell us
when you'll be able to tell us?  Come on, don't keep all the good information
to yourselves!  Sharing is good! :)

Mark E. Snyder
71670,2724


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12679 S8/H/W Compatibility
    17-Oct-92  11:11:58
Sb: #12649-Current List?
Fm: Lawrence E. Oliver 71450,2235
To: Mark E. Snyder 71670,2724 (X)

Mark -

Lib # 1, file: 0992hw.txt.

This may be updated sometime within the next 2-3 weeks, if the information on
the shipping of the 2nd release/beta is correct, i.e. the end of this month.

                                        LARRY

#: 12705 S8/H/W Compatibility
    17-Oct-92  22:37:25
Sb: Best network card (?)
Fm: Waldemar Kowalski 70544,52
To: All

A reliable source has told me that the 3Com Etherlink III cards are what the
MS NT developers are/will be using.  This NIC apparently combines great
performance, easy installation, and a great price (I've been quoted sub-$150
on small quantities - dealer prices even less).

Makes sense that the card which will be connecting all the MS guys working on
NT would be a good choice - I would imagine that it might be one of the more
thoroughly debugged drivers!

Just for your information. . .

#: 12747 S8/H/W Compatibility
    18-Oct-92  19:39:17
Sb: MPII and WINNT
Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325
To: All

I have been trying to determine the usuability of a WIN 3.1 (maybe 3.0, but
worked real well in 3.1) application Microphone II, a terminal program. I got
it all installed (from within NT) and opened it up and went to the
Communications settings panel and switched it to COM 2 and 2400 baud. All
other settings were left untouched; Hayes Modem, etc. Upon save and exit MPII
locked up hard. I cannot quit MPII nor logoff WINNT from the task list and
cannot end the NT session without doing a Reset. Use of this particular App is
not critical but I spent the weekend giving NT a thorough going over and this
is the only hang I have to date. I am concerned I may have a hardware
interrupt conflict, although that is curious as I am sending this to you via
TAPCIS using the same COM port. Had any quirkiness with terminal programs
reported in to date that may shed some light on my minor problem? On a more
positive note I have gotten TAPCIS (obviously), Excel, and WINWORD running
famously, albeit slower than in WIN3.1

BOX is a Clone running AMI 1991 BIOS, 486-50DX Isa board, 20 megs RAM,
NON-SCSI II Sony CD-ROM, 242 MB IDE HD, 1 par. and 2 serial ports. I have both
the Sony Controller and a Microtek Scanner controller installed for info.
Below are the error messages from the Event.LOG. I emptied it (the log) out
just prior to today's session for this purpose. There were yesterday, other
Elnkii reports in the log, so I did the IRQ change in the Release notes, from
IRQ3 to IRQ5. This APP only, did not function prior to the IRQ change, nor
after. [What's an Elnkii, anyway?]

10/18/92 06:26:01 PM machinename Error None 2019 *** Elnkii The description
for Event ID ( 2019 ) in Source ( machinename ) could not be found. It
contains the following insertion string(s): Elnkii.

#: 12633 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  18:25:21
Sb: Controlers
Fm: David England 73700,1367
To: All

Hi, I'm desperate. My SCSI controler died today and I need to buy one. How
about a sneak peek at the new HW compatibility list so I can get something
that works first time. If not how about some advice on controlers. I have a
33mhz 486 with an ISA bus and I need my 450 meg of HD. Thanks   David


There are 2 Replies.

#: 12722 S8/H/W Compatibility
    18-Oct-92  10:54:34
Sb: #12633-Controlers
Fm: C Straghalis [UltraStor] 71005,1655
To: David England 73700,1367 (X)

David,

       One preview...the UltraStor SCSI controllers will be supported on the
next release.  This includes the 14F (our ISA SCSI-2FAST controller).  Le tme
know if you would like sdome literature...or just e-mail me your address.

Regards,

 Chris Straghalis
 UltraStor Corp.

#: 12806 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  08:26:18
Sb: #12633-Controlers
Fm: Billy Newport 100030,342
To: David England 73700,1367

Adaptec controllers are supported now and are pretty cheap. I got one in mine
with a CD-ROM, DAT and disk with no problems.

#: 12655 S8/H/W Compatibility
    17-Oct-92  05:54:58
Sb: #12516-SCSI support/IRQ issues
Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X)

Will DOS2NT still be available in the Oct release? I do not have a SCSI
CD-ROM.

#: 12882 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  17:35:56
Sb: #12655-SCSI support/IRQ issues
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Denis Day 75236,3325 (X)

Denis,

DOS2NT.BAT is not in the October release.  Instead we have an alternative (and
much superior) interactive option invoked by "winnt.exe" at a DOS prompt.  The
prefered meathod is still to use a boot floppy and install from the CD-ROM,
though, but "winnt.exe" can be used if your CD-ROM is not supported.

Regards,
   -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 12881 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  17:35:51
Sb: #12544-SCSI support/IRQ issues
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Steve Liberty 71450,2341 (X)

Steve,

I expect you won't have any trouble with the drive or controller themselves.
 (It is always possible to have conflicts with other hardware, of course.) I
also expect audio to work for you as that situation has improved somewhat as
well.  (If it doesn't, you know where to find us!) Regards,
   -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 12883 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  17:36:04
Sb: Hardware compatibility
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Don Apperson 72700,1042 (X)

Don,

Unfortunately, I cannot say with 100% certainty either way.  The question
boils down to whether your video is 100% compatible with the VGA standard. If
so, then you should be able to run Windows NT in VGA mode.  For higher modes,
you would need Windows NT drivers written for the video board. Since I have
not heard of too many video related problems (at VGA mode), I expect you will
be able to run in VGA mode but the possibility does exist that exotic hardware
might pose a problem. Sorry I can't be more definite than that,
   -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 12884 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  17:36:13
Sb: #11793-Driver Stuff
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: H.T. GRIFFIN, II 72340,127

Hi,

I don't show either board on my list for the October release as far as tested
SCSI controllers.

As for the wave files, it is not clear from your note which files do not
work--the long or the short?  Have you tried the suggestions in the ntfaq.txt
file in library 1?  The following is taken from there:

________ The SoundBlaster/AudioPro cards are known to have compatibility
problems with some fast 486 systems and some system chip sets.  You may be
unable to run such a device on such a system.

Before surrendering this as solely a hardware problem, you may in fact have an
IRQ or DMA channel conflict with another device.  Either move these setting on
the other device or on the sound card.  The recommended settings for the sound
card is DMA 1, IRQ 7 and port 220h (note however that LPT1 also often uses
this IRQ). If you are unable to resolve the conflict you can disable one of
the devices in the Registry.

The utility REGEDIT can be used to alter the Registry Database.  Note: in many
cases you must be logged on as 'Administrator' to alter some of the Registry
settings.  Hardware configuration settings can be altered under the Registry
branch 'HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE->SYSTEM>ControlSet001->Services'.  The SoundBlaster
can be disabled/enables by changing the entry for the sub-branch
Sndblst->Start to 0x4/0x1.

Warning: REGEDIT is a very powerful utility which will allow you to directly
change your Registry: USE THIS TOOL AT YOUR OWN RISK.  The preferred work
around to this problem is to reinstall with the correct configuration.  Using
REGEDIT incorrectly can put your machine in a state in which you will have to
reinstall to correct.  We do not support REGEDIT, nor the changes you make
with it.  We simply offer it as a faster, but unsupported, fix to this
problem. ______

Regards,
  -- Terence Hosken [MS]



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12942 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  06:38:37
Sb: #12884-Driver Stuff
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X)

Terrence,

The SoundBlaster Pro supports interrupt 10d (or 0Ah if you prefer). It is a
great way to get it out of the way, as it were. Works well under DOS/Win as
well. The 0-7 interrupt range is crowded enuf as it is.

John

#: 12570 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  10:03:28
Sb: #12529-16mb limit ?
Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

John:

Thanks for your clear reply.  I wish that DMA capabilities of EISA systems had
been pushed more by the press.  I think that this would have influenced the
purchases that I have made over the last year.

Carlen

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12582 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  12:21:27
Sb: #12570-16mb limit ?
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 (X)

Carlen,

I don't think anyone really foresaw the need for DMA over 16MB would be on us
so quickly. Even on our intial UNIX Sys V/386 relases we didn't think it would
be an issue. It took a cusotmer with a custom X-Windows app that required
about 32-36MB of RAM to makes us understand the issue.

John

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12737 S8/H/W Compatibility
    18-Oct-92  17:46:19
Sb: #12582-16mb limit ?
Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

John,

What happened to the spped of the system when you added 36mb of
ram to the computer?  How great of a speed hit did you take ?

Carlen

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12787 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  06:10:23
Sb: #12737-16mb limit ?
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514

Carlen,

Once you got the system pass the memory overcommit stage the overall system
performance only took a slight hit. But when it was overcommitted, sigh..

John

#: 12595 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  12:51:34
Sb: #12556-16mb limit ?
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: John Oellrich 72611,1452 (X)

John:

gets better.  Just got the new ATI graphics Ultra Pro 2 meg (was already for
speed and everthing).  problem one: memory has to be installed for the board &
guess where (in the lower 16 so to speak).  Guess what they told me: take some
of the memory out, the ISA bus cannot support over 16 megs.  So, the old DMA
story continues at ATI.  They have new drivers coming out (sort of like your
check is in the mail) soon.  Moral here: card is going back.  I said to them,
I beta test for a lot of hardware & software vendors, can I test the drivers
for you (their reply -- we have had bad luck with beta testers so most is done
in house! what a pile of crap).

First Orchid & now ATI, geting scary!

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12807 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  09:55:06
Sb: #12595-16mb limit ?
Fm: joe parness 70363,1137
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246

Is it really true that the ISA bus cannot support over 16 megs ? Or is this
just a vendor specific problem ?

#: 12835 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  11:41:33
Sb: #12807-16mb limit ?
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: joe parness 70363,1137 (X)

RE: ISA and 16 megs of ram.

   This is a difficult question to answer since it is setup specific.  DMA
access on the ISA bus is limited to 16 meg.  This in no way implies that only
16 megs can be addressed.  many newer boards allow such addresses to occur
through a double paging system. In doing so, there can be a slowdown but it
does work.  I am currently using 20 megs and NT recognizes it all as does win
3.1 and dos.  This problem is only encountered in DMA addresses.

Hope this helps.                      bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12838 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  12:19:41
Sb: #12835-16mb limit ?
Fm: joe parness 70363,1137
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Will the DMA limitation exist on local bus boxes ? How can I avoid this
limitation ?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12943 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  06:38:41
Sb: #12838-16mb limit ?
Fm: John Oellrich 72611,1452
To: joe parness 70363,1137

Joe,

It depends on the LB implementation. But all your DMA devices would have to be
on the LB. One shouldn't make too big of an issue out of this. Where it was
real problematic is in the early OS/2 release. OS/2 refused to recognize RAM
over 16MB in this case. By buffering DMA thru the 0-16MB region it can be
worked around, with some level of perf hit. If the system is memory
overcommitted and paging to beat the band, the perf hit is painful. Simple
solution, add more RAM.

If you think you are going to be running an environment that requires more
than 16MB of RAM on a consistent basis, look at EISA or MCA (or a UNIX
workstation and be done with it ;->)

John

#: 12781 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  04:19:27
Sb: #12477-16mb limit ?
Fm: Andy Champ 100064,2267
To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514

Carlen, something else you should be aware of - IDE interfaced disk drives -
and any based on the old AT controller - don't do DMA at all - the transfer of
data from disk controller to memory is through the processor.  This means that
these systems do not have any problem with memory above 16Mb, even if they're
ISA systems.

BTW EISA's memory addressing limit is "only" 4Gb and we've already had one guy
on this forum wanting a 5Gb app....

Andy Champ ICL.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12782 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  04:47:37
Sb: #12781-16mb limit ?
Fm: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634
To: Andy Champ 100064,2267

PMJI

...Which raises the question of which architecture do you look at if you want
to address >4 gig ??
                                                Tony.

#: 12973 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  09:32:04
Sb: #12782-16mb limit ?
Fm: Carl Byington 74040,1156
To: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634

DEC Alpha?

#: 12640 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  20:48:03
Sb: #12421-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X)

If he's not interested in the porta drive I might be. That is if you throw
in the computer too.<g>

Darren

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12672 S8/H/W Compatibility
    17-Oct-92  10:08:06
Sb: #12640-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X)

I have a palmtop you might be interested in.  It doesn't have a connection to
the CD, but it does have a cute Citicard pasted to the back, and runs on solar
energy.  That's what I'd throw in <G>!

Seems he's not interested in the Porta (Potty) Drive.  Nobody is.

-a.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12701 S8/H/W Compatibility
    17-Oct-92  22:13:55
Sb: #12672-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X)

I'll trade you for just the logo.<g> I might even take the drive off of your
hands, for a price.<g>

Darren

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12730 S8/H/W Compatibility
    18-Oct-92  12:58:27
Sb: #12701-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X)

Darren,

If you're serious, the offer is this:  The CD Porta Drive and FD TM850 SCSI-II
card for the same price I paid.  I won't charge you shipping, just whatever
the COD charges are.  It's that easy.  It's an external drive.  Interested?

-a.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12753 S8/H/W Compatibility
    18-Oct-92  21:50:39
Sb: #12730-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237

Only if I can get the computer too.

Darren

#: 12849 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  13:19:30
Sb: #12753-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403 (X)

The computer with the Citicard attached?  I can swing that one.  If you're
serious ... really serious, let's move this to email?

-a.

#: 12643 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  21:17:26
Sb: #12522-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art
we just recived three of the cd roms from the MS deal.
They come defalt with the FD card now. at leased thats the way they came to
us!


By the way how the heck are ya?
dan


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12647 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  21:53:17
Sb: #12643-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 (X)

Dan,

<<They come defalt with the FD card now. at leased thats the way they came to
us!>>

Thanks for letting me know they have changed their default card. You have
saved me some typing in future messages.

<<By the way how the heck are ya?>>

Busy! But I was in a slight car accident on Wednesday. Some guy rear ended the
car I was in. (passanger) I suffered a minor  back sprain.

Art

There are 2 Replies.

#: 12674 S8/H/W Compatibility
    17-Oct-92  10:08:43
Sb: #12647-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

SUE!


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12752 S8/H/W Compatibility
    18-Oct-92  21:50:35
Sb: #12674-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Darren K. Pearson 71127,2403
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237

>>SUE!<<

Yeah, she's done it before.<g>

Darren

#: 12738 S8/H/W Compatibility
    18-Oct-92  17:48:52
Sb: #12647-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Busy! But I was in a slight car accident on Wednesday. Some guy rear ended the
car I was in. (passanger) I suffered a minor  back sprain.


Busy is good! the car stuff you can do with out! I hope every thing is ok and
nothing more that a sprain.

How does the JOB in Ca sound sofar?

Dan

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12760 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  03:21:38
Sb: #12738-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 (X)

Dan,

<<How does the JOB in Ca sound sofar?>>

haven't heard anything yet. But I suspect that they will hire the other guy
with more multi-media experiance. I probably would.

I'm more of an applications developer than a driver developer. I've done some
driver work in the past as I needed, but it's never been full time work. Some
people develop drivers for a living. <g>

<<I hope every thing is ok and nothing more that a sprain.>>

Still stiff and sore, but I'm mobile again. :)

Art

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12793 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  07:17:28
Sb: #12760-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Still stiff and sore, but I'm mobile again. :)

Dont do TO MUCH TO SOON. I did and 7 years later i'm still paying the price.

good luck. hop we all get the NT beta soon!


Dan

#: 12848 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  13:18:31
Sb: #12760-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art,

I used to be a driver type ... cab driver in NYC for 5 years <BG>!  Seriously,
I hope that job does come thru for you.  I know if I were making the decision,
you'd already be on your way to CA (or Redmond).  An Apps developer can always
develope drivers.  (I'm not so pretty sure it works in reverse <B>).  I did
drivers in '78 to '80 and didn't find them too much different than apps ...
but I was working in Macro-11 (DEC's assembly for the 11/70) and it was a
short jump to drivers.

I also hope you're feeling better.  Take it easy, relax, and do the exercises
they give you.

Be well,
-a.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12930 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  03:46:12
Sb: #12848-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X)

Alex,

<<I also hope you're feeling better.  Take it easy, relax, and do the
exercises they give you.>>

Thanks. I am feeling a little better. It's just slow going.

So when we get the new release, what do you think your chances are of getting
the CD and NT to cooperate? Hear anything new there?

Art

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12972 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  09:29:29
Sb: #12930-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613

Art,

Glad to hear you're feeling better.  Take it easy, tho.

<<So when we get the new release, what do you think your chances are of
getting the CD and NT to cooperate? Hear anything new there?>>

I haven't heard anything substantial from MS.  I did get a good suggestion
from another person here, who said that even though the WD1007 is doing it's
translation number on the 1224 cylinder ESDI drive, I should take those
translated numbers and put them into the CMOS as drive type 47.  So I did
that.  Now, I have to move stuff around all over again, to make room on the E:
partition for NT and try it again.  It's pretty simple, if it gets to
Canyon.mid and starts to fail again, then that wasn't the answer.

Parenthetically, I don't believe it has anything to do with the ESDI HD and
controller.  But what do I know <G>?

-a.

#: 12976 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  09:53:12
Sb: #12972-$199 DAK CD-ROM???
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X)

Alex,

Well good luck with the install then. Somehow I think you'll need it. :)

Art

#: 12629 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  17:57:09
Sb: EISA Ethernet Adapters
Fm: Cliff Palmer 76517,3324
To: All

Has anyone used an EISA busmastering 32-bit Ethernet adapter (thin-net, not
TP) that you would recommend.  I've looked at Eagle/Anthem, SMC and Intel (and
almost fainted at the cost...)
If you are using one of these and it's working well for you, please let me
know which one it is.  Thanks !


There is 1 Reply.

#: 12741 S8/H/W Compatibility
    18-Oct-92  18:01:45
Sb: #12629-EISA Ethernet Adapters
Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514
To: Cliff Palmer 76517,3324

Cliff:

Most of the EISA ethernet cards out there are based on the
Eagle NE3200.  Intel, Compaq, and several other vendors OEM this design
from Eagle.  The OEM versions are driver compatable so you could use them with
NT today.

I have two NE3200's in my Novell 3.11 file server and they help keep the
processor utilization down to a minimum.  I think that it only takes 15% of a
486/25's time to keep a NE3200 sending at full speed.
Full speed would be about 800-900k per second.

The best k byte per second deal are the new 3-com "parallel tasking" adapters.
You would see 400-500k per second.  Of course it might take 50% of the
processors time, but they only cost ~$150.  All you need to do is wait for NT
drivers.  There will be an EISA version of this card in the spring.

Carlen

#: 12954 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  07:57:41
Sb: #12741-EISA Ethernet Adapters
Fm: Cliff Palmer 76517,3324
To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514

Carlen, thanks for the info in the NE3200s.  The 3COMs sound like a good deal,
but spring is a long time.....  Have you heard of any problems with the
NE3200s and bus-mastering SCSI adapters like the Adaptec 1742 ?  I keep
hearing rumors of packet sequence errors but no one will "fess up" and tell me
what's going on.

#: 12986 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  10:31:03
Sb: #12954-EISA Ethernet Adapters
Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514
To: Cliff Palmer 76517,3324 (X)

Cliff:

My file server has an Adaptec 1742 and 2 Novell NE3200's and I have had no
problems.  Compaq has just announced a new 32bit Ethernet/Token Ring card of
their design.  It will list at $300, the token ring module will list at $150,
see this weeks PC Week.  You would probably have to wait a while for NT
support.

Carlen

#: 12993 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  11:09:49
Sb: HP Vectra
Fm: Raimund Zopp 100064,3666
To: sysop (X)

Following problem: Machine is a new HP Vectra 486/66ST, adaptec SCSI 1740
controller, 16MB RAM Installation by dos2nt fails after the first reboot with
error code 0x00000069  and  Phase 1 I/O Initialization failed. The same
software version worked fine with HP Vectra RS25/c and COREL SCSI interface.
Does it mean the new Vectra is not compatible?

#: 12688 S8/H/W Compatibility
    17-Oct-92  17:52:01
Sb: NT Loader: isa NE eisa
Fm: Michael Ramsden 74206,1501
To: all

When I boot my ALR BVeisa (17MB) I get a message from the NT loader saying
that there is a conflict between the Eisa and Isa memory configuration
information, and therefore, the ISA memory config will be used. I'm not sure
what effect this is having since everything seems to run ok (altho it slows
down the boot by 15 seconds).
The eisa configuration disk says everything is ok, altho the documentation
isn't great.
ALR had no explanation for the message.
Anyone here have any idea?

There are 2 Replies.

#: 12710 S8/H/W Compatibility
    18-Oct-92  07:50:39
Sb: #12688-NT Loader: isa NE eisa
Fm: neil colvin 71650,3517
To: Michael Ramsden 74206,1501

I have 2 ALR eisa machines (powerpro), and had the same problem.  The solution
for me was to edit the eisa configuration files for the system motherboard to
explicitely include all of the memory on the motherboard. For some reason,
only 16MB was declared in the file, and I had 49MB.  By putting explicit
MEMORY commands in the configuration file, the problem went away.

#: 12914 S8/H/W Compatibility
    19-Oct-92  21:08:27
Sb: #12710-NT Loader: isa NE eisa
Fm: Michael Ramsden 74206,1501
To: neil colvin 71650,3517

I hate to play dumb, but how do you explicitely put MEMORY commands in the
eisa config. file? I tried bringing up the memory parts of the eisa config
program, and part says 17. something megs, and the next line down says 16 megs
(available versus usable, something like that!) Doesn't seem to be any way to
edit these lines. Where did you edit the memory available?
..Mike

#: 12994 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  11:18:52
Sb: #12914-NT Loader: isa NE eisa
Fm: neil colvin 71650,3517
To: Michael Ramsden 74206,1501

The EISA configuration program reads !xxxxxxx.cfg files to configure the
system.  These files are ASCII files, and can be edited by any editor. Many
times, the type of problem you are having is due to missing statements in
these base .cfg files.  Find the one for your system, and look for MEMORY=
statements.  Make sure that these reflect the memory in your system. Ask your
vendor for the EISA .cfg specification.  It is a useful document to have.

#: 12742 S8/H/W Compatibility
    18-Oct-92  18:04:10
Sb: #12688-NT Loader: isa NE eisa
Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514
To: Michael Ramsden 74206,1501

Mike:

I get this same message on my AST Power Premium machine.  It showed up after I
pulled out my only EISA adapter.  Go figure.

Carlen

#: 12997 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  11:29:01
Sb: SCSI II Host Adaptors???
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Karl Mitschke 73650,150 (X)

Karl,

Here is a listing of SCSI Host Adapters taken from the October Hardware
Compatibility List.  Be sure to take note of any footnotes. I hope this helps,
   -- Terence Hosken [MS]

The following SCSI adapters have been tested with CD-ROM and disk drives. [11]

Adaptec AHA-1540b/1542b Adaptec AHA-1740 [2] DPT PM2012B Future Domain MCS-600
Future Domain MCS-700 Future Domain TMC-845 Future Domain TMC-850 Future
Domain TMC-850M(ER) Future Domain TMC-885 Future Domain TMC-1660 Future Domain
TMC-1680 Future Domain TMC-7000EX IBM SCSI Host Adapter [3] Maynard 16-Bit
SCSI Controller [4] NCR 53C700 SCSI Controller [5] NCR 53C710 SCSI Controller
[6] NCR 53C90 SCSI Controller [5] Olivetti ESC-1 UltraStor 14F [6] UltraStor
24F [12]

[2]  Adaptec AHA-1740A must be configured for 5mb/sec., asynchronous to
     work with listed CD-ROM drives from Chinon, Hitachi and NEC.

[3]  Earlier versions of this controller, including the PS/2 Model P75
     have proven to have problems with various CD-ROM drives.  The Chinon
     CDX-431 and NEC Intersect CDR-73 are known to work with this
     controller.

[4]  The Maynard SCSI Controller can be used as a general purpose SCSI
     controller for all tasks except setup.

[5]  Machines with this SCSI adapter must use the WINNT.EXE setup
     method.

[6]  See the Beta Release Notes for more information on this adapter.

[11] Tape functionality has been successfully tested on a limited set
     of SCSI adapters:  Adaptec AHA-1540b and AHA-1740, Future Domain
     TMC-845, TMC-7000EX, IBM SCSI Host Adapter in PS/2 model 95, Maynard
     16-Bit SCSI Controller, Olivetti ESC-1 and native SCSI adapters on
     MIPS ARC/R4000 systems from ACER, MIPS and Olivetti.

[12] UltraStor24F The UltraStor24F might not work properly when used as a
secondary controller in a computer with an IDE disk or a PC-AT disk primary
drive.

#: 12998 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  11:29:07
Sb: UltraStor 24F
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Charles Hoffman 71477,3612

Charles,

There is support in the October Beta for the UltraStor24F, however there are
still some minor problems.  The UltraStor24F might not work properly when used
as a secondary controller in a computer with an IDE disk or a PC-AT disk
primary drive.

Regards,
  -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 12926 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  00:35:30
Sb: CD-ROM free advice??
Fm: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547
To: All

Hi,

For anybody that doesn't mind typing a few words to help a stranger make the
correct choice:

I need to buy a CD-ROM, right now for use under win 3.1 but with use under NT
in mind for the near future. Obviously value for money is a factor but I don't
mind paying extra for reliability, useability etc. Audio CD playing is as
important as data cd's!!

Thanks to the extreme for any help/advice/horror stories,
Pete.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12962 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  08:16:16
Sb: #12926-CD-ROM free advice??
Fm: Shannon Hill 75430,446
To: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547

Peter,
        I have a NEC CDR-74 and love it!!  NEC makes one of the best CD-ROMs
on the market.  I highly recommend it.  It also supports the new Multi Media
standards and plays great audio CD's.  The only downfall is that it comes
wiwith a Trantor T128 card which is an 8-bit SCSI card.  I would suggest
buying a different SCSI card.  NEC is a very popular brand and is supported by
most SCSI card manufacturers.

Happy computing!!   :-)

** Mr. Shannon Hill **

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12964 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  08:55:28
Sb: #12962-CD-ROM free advice??
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Shannon Hill 75430,446

Shannon,

FWIW: The only problem I have with the NEC CD-ROM drives is that they are not
SCSI-2 compliant. Which means no audio for NT. At least not until someone
writes a filter for audio commands. <g>

Art

#: 13058 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  21:33:25
Sb: #12964-CD-ROM free advice??
Fm: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

So...get writing <g>! Thanks for the input, that is an important
consideration.

Pete.

#: 13057 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  21:32:20
Sb: #12962-CD-ROM free advice??
Fm: Peter A Winskill 70323,2547
To: Shannon Hill 75430,446

Thanks a lot for your reply

#: 13062 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  22:23:40
Sb: PAS16 scsi pinouts
Fm: Waldemar Kowalski 70544,52
To: All

In hopes of having the MV PAS16 supported by the next release of NT, I'm
trying to find out what is necessary to convert the 50pin on-the-card scsi
connector to a DB25-type scsi connector for an external CD ROM.  I'm using the
Adaptec 1542 right now (which, if this works out, I might want to sell), but
would prefer to consolidate things onto the PAS16 card.  I got the card used,
and it came to me with the CD ROM drivers, but not the requisite 50-25 pin
conversion plate.  Anyone out there know what the 50-pin pinouts are, and how
they should be manipulated to convert to 25?

Thanks in advance for your help - wally

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13082 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  04:16:04
Sb: #13062-PAS16 scsi pinouts
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Waldemar Kowalski 70544,52

Wally,

I'd ask ken Nicholson for this info. Or better yet you can order an adapter
for the Pro-16 with an internal SCSI connection to the Pro-16 and a bracketted
external SCSI connection along wiht a load of DOS drivers.

Art

#: 12585 S8/H/W Compatibility
    16-Oct-92  12:32:36
Sb: COM PORTS AND WINNT
Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642
To: Don Perry 76676,1127

Don,

Here's something to test. Try switching the mouse and the modem, i.e., the
mouse on COM1 and the modem on COM2. You know that the mouse and COM2 are
functioning correctly. The new configuration should test the modem and COM2.

As for question 2. This error message is misleading (to say the least :), and
will be changed for the beta release. What the message meant to say is that
the hardware configuration for COM1 thru COM4 are known and industry standard
(give or take a little). Thus, no modifications will be allowed.

Hope this helps.

Sam Karroum [MS]

#: 12927 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  00:42:30
Sb: #12585-COM PORTS AND WINNT
Fm: Don Perry 76676,1127
To: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642 (X)

Sam:

Thanks for the tip!!

Seems like the UART was good enough for the mouse but not the comm port.  I
have since replaced the whole io card (with a new NS16550AFN) and she seems to
be working beautifully.  (I'm sending you this message from TAPCIS running in
an NT DOS box.)


I do think however that modifiations of the ports and IRQ's should be allowed
somehow as I know that some io cards allow for choosing several different IO
ports and between any IRQ (including 8-15).  This would allow me for instance
to install a FAX modem as another comm port while retaining a modem and mouse
on standard COM1 and COM2.

Don

#: 13210 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  02:22:39
Sb: #12927-COM PORTS AND WINNT
Fm: Denis Day 75236,3325
To: Don Perry 76676,1127

I used to run a BBS some years back and an issue I endured many beers over was
the need for a 16550 UART. Although I was not really sure why, I sprung for the
chip and the installation. I have long since abanodoned the BBS and the Modem
that was improved by the 16550 (as well as the box it was installed in.) and
now I see much conversation on various fora re: the 16550. What, please, does
it do? Does it do better with everything using the COM ports? Are there some
known glitches or Apps that will be ADVERSELY affected by the addition of a
16550? Why doesn't every motherboard maker install one right out of the gate;
the cost difference cannot be that great? What's the real deal?

Thanks for what you can do

#: 13184 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  19:57:11
Sb: Driver Compatibility
Fm: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247
To: Microsoft Tech. Support

Will a Windows device driver developed an an Intel-based PC be compatible with
a MIPS or DEC system by virtue of the operaitng system?  Or will the device
driver need to be re-compiled for each platform supported?

Louis Columbus


There is 1 Reply.

#: 13223 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  04:02:31
Sb: #13184-Driver Compatibility
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Louis E Columbus 71212,3247

Louis,

<<Or will the device driver need to be re-compiled for each platform
supported?>>

That's the ticket. Device drivers will only be source code compatible. A new
binary will be need for each hardware platform.

Art

#: 13227 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  04:37:31
Sb: #12552-CD-ROM Suggestions?
Fm: Fred Kemmerer 72147,2763
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob,

Sorry to but in but you mentioned a good windows CD player by Enis Moran. I was
wondering if you could tell me what it is called and where (if) its available
on CIS?


Thanks in advance for the help,

- Fred Kemmerer

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13232 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  06:05:46
Sb: #13227-CD-ROM Suggestions?
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Fred Kemmerer 72147,2763

Fred:

Think you can find it on winadv.  If you have trouble, just shout and I will
post you his CIS number.  It truly is a nice little app.  Title I think is
CDplayer.zip.

                                       bob

#: 13255 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  09:07:07
Sb: DTC 3290 EISA SCSI
Fm: Eduardo Hoo 71332,417
To: all

Hi everyone, I'm having trouble installing WinNT (alternate inst. - DOS2NT)
with a DTC 3290 EISA SCSI Adapter. I get a "Fatal System Error: 0x69". I looked
at the NTFAQ.TXT and turn off the turbo mode, it worked. Well that's not
exactly a clean solution! Does anyone have more info on that? -Ed.

#: 13024 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  16:03:32
Sb: > than a gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Art Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art:

Got smart here, talked the SCSI gurus themselves.  Seems that all is well. NT
and Dos will look at the world the same way.  So now all I have to figure out
is how to move stuff from 3 harddrives over to one and keep all active at the
same time <bg>.  When I told my scheme to the driver specialist at adaptec, he
nearly threw up <bg>.  he thought it was worth the experiment. time will tell
<VBG>.  let you know soon.

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13070 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  03:19:02
Sb: #13024-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob,

<<NT and Dos will look at the world the same way.>>

That's good to hear. but it means MS must have made changes to NT then. I say
that because the first time you installed the drive and had no primary
partition on the second drive that NT swapped your drive letters around.

<<let you know soon.>>

Yes. Please!

BTW: I can understand how the Adaptec spec feels. It sounds bizarre to me too!
<g> If I ever add a 1 Gb drive it will an optical drive. If I need that much
space I'll pay the little extra to buy large removable media. I figure another
510 Mb IDE drive for 1 Gb local storage and another 5 - 10 Gb  on optical
storage should do it. :)

Besides if I get another 510 Mb drive I can try out NT's data striping feature
and see what it'll do for me.

TTYL...

Art

PS: The only question I have now is... Where am I going to get the money? <G>

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13092 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  07:05:39
Sb: #13070-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art:

RE: the drive designation swap!

Well NT was reading primary partitions first than logical & extended ones.
When I ran Fdisk the first time on the D drive, I made it an extended
partition.  When I reformatted it as a primary partition, NT had no problems
at all.  So the fault was mine, NT just found it and made me look silly
(actually fairly easy <bg>).

RE: translation scheme

This is what I was told by Adaptec.  they developed a translation scheme in
conjunction with MS.  the 1542 system driver has been redone and my lost
drives should no longer occur.  I might have to wait for the beta release but
since this is due out next week, no big deal.

RE: cost of drive

Actually boils down to as follows: just got a seagate 245 ($649.00).  have 2
quantum 245 ide's.  Figure that I can get 350-400 for each of them.  The
fujitsu harddrive drive costs $1400.  This will get me away from the mixed bus
and also make it easy to EISA.  Ah, the ole "to Eisa or not to eisa, that is
the question <bg>.
                              bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13100 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  07:19:14
Sb: #13092-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246

Bob,

<<Well NT was reading primary partitions first than logical & extended ones.
When I ran Fdisk the first time on the D drive, I made it an extended
partition. When I reformatted it as a primary partition, NT had no problems at
all.  So the fault was mine, NT just found it and made me look silly (actually
fairly easy <bg>)>>

Ah, but I thought DOS did correctly see the drives in the right order even
though drive D: was an extended (logical) partion on the second physical hard
disk. While NT did something like (C: primary disk 0, D: logical disk 0 and E:
logical disk 1), and DOS was (C: primary disk 0, D: logical disk 1, E: logical
disk 0).

<<This will get me away from the mixed bus and also make it easy to EISA.>>

Go for it! <g>

Art

#: 13119 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  09:43:45
Sb: #13100-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art:

RE: dos vs NT in reading drives

You have to realize that (& I am sure you do <bg>) that dos reads only two
drives as primary drives.  The remaining ones are considered controlled by
drivers.  Hence, dos would consider drive 1 as c, drive 2 as D & then the
remaining drives would be taken in order.  SCSI 0 would be E etc.  NT looks at
everything and lumps primary & extended partitions together & then assigns them
letters.  It saw c as a primary, d as a logical and e as a primary.  Hence, it
called E D and vice versa.  Once I realized what was happening, I simply
reformatted D and all was well.   Fascinating thing here is that the two are
reading things so differently; IMHO it is a problem in Dos & not in NT.  If I
were a betting man, I would wager that future releases of DOS (not 6 but 7 on)
will support more than 2 drives and there will not be a cylinder limit as there
is now.  Furthermore, dos will get many of the nuances in NT when in 32bit
release.

Drive just arrived.  I did not realize what full height means.  Had to panic
order a case & 65 watt power supply for the critter.  Just think, Compaq uses a
power supply for their cheapies that is the same size as the power supply for 1
of my harddrives.  Now there is food for thought <bg>. Just need the bios
upgrade from Adaptec & I am in business. Will know soon, I hope, what the deal
is with these SCSI boat anchors <vbg>.

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13127 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  10:45:45
Sb: #13119-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob,

FWIW: DOS supports a primary and a secondary disk controller. 4 Drives in all.
Depending on the controller of course. But you did see the point I was making.
DOS & NT do see things differently. So if what you were told is true, NT has
had it's disk recognition method changed.

As to full height... Yep. There big critters. <g> My tower case has room for 2
1/2 height 3.5 (or 4 low profile 3.5) and 2 1/2 height (1 full height) drives
internally, plus 4 5.25 external (open) devices. I still have room for 1 3.5
internal and the 5.25 full height drive, so if you want to send it to me for
testing... <Grin>

You *really* should look around at the new tower cases. Some support 11 1/2
height devices. I found that it was cheaper to upgrade my case than it was to
buy an external case/power supply. So I did! It only cost me $99.

Art



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13201 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  20:49:08
Sb: #13127-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

I have been kicking myself for some time about a tower case.  To be honest,
SCSI works better with all internal cables.  Will get a monster one of these
days.  the big drive is probably better off out of the case.  It uses a 65 watt
power supply & gets a tad hot <bg>.

Will wait to next week for putting NT back on the system.  By the way, EMM386
nolonger works. Just locks up.  Real bummer.

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13216 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  03:18:21
Sb: #13201-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob,

<<Will get a monster one of these days.>>

JDR has a *real* nice tower case with a 450 watt power supply, 11 1/2 height
drive bays, a door to cover the open bays, and only cost $495.

that cost is still the reason I haven't bought it yet. If I could only find it
somewhere else and cheaper too. <g>

<<By the way, EMM386 nolonger works. Just locks up.  Real bummer.>>

That doesn't sound good. Is this with the new Adaptec BIOS?

Art

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13235 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  06:06:16
Sb: #13216-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

RE:

Tower -- there are actually cheaper ones than the $450. You keep on using those
retail prices <bg>.  Funny thing, the case I am getting for the drive has a 65
watt power supply.  So do the new super-compaq computers.  makes you wonder a
bit does it not?

Yes -- emm386 is failing with the new bios but so is qemm.  Funny thing, if I
run one IDE drive, all is well.  If i totally insert the bios, then no memory
manager.  Folks at adaptec are probably going to love this one <bg>. No real
biggee however.  reasonably sure that all will work out <fingers crossed all
the way>.

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13254 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  08:59:42
Sb: #13235-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246

Bob,

<<Funny thing, if I run one IDE drive, all is well.>>

Now that makes sense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Adaptec bios only
used for a boot drive? With the IDE drive installed it'll be the primary boot
device.

<<So do the new super-compaq computers.  makes you wonder a bit does it not?>>

Not really. The new Compaqs are all surface mount technology. That initself
cuts down the power requirements (heat too). I have a Deskpro 486/33 M, but I
thought it had a larger (200 watt) power supply. Are you latking about the
prolina (????) line? They are the cheapie Compaqs, not the super-compaps. <g>
The M series I have is even EISA. :)

Art

#: 13278 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  11:34:49
Sb: #13254-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art:

I was facetiously referring to the cheapies <bg>!  a 65 watt power supply on a
computer is like a full sized car running a 50 horsepower engine!

                               bob



There are 2 Replies.

#: 13280 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  11:50:02
Sb: #13278-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob,

<<a 65 watt power supply on a computer is like a full sized car running a 50
horsepower engine!>>

Oh! :)

Art

#: 13290 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  13:54:34
Sb: #13278-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

 >a 65 watt power supply on a computer is like a full sized car running a 50
 >horsepower engine!

Now that you mention it, I have found that my power supply requirements have
gone way down over the years.  Modern motherboards, option boards and
harddisks have all become more efficient thus requiring less in the way of a
power supply.  But I sill don't think I would want a 65W power supply <g>.

-MarkV

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13318 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  18:35:59
Sb: #13290-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X)

mark:

My 1.1 gig Fujitsu harddrive needs plenty of juice.  Toss in 20 megs of ram
and a 486/33 chip -- 300 watts in a flash.  Everybody is going smaller, I am
going bigger (all should be internal) with two cooling fans, a 350-450 watt
power supply with built in UPS & a beer chiller all in one case <bg>.  Now we
are talking.

                               bob



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13321 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  21:08:00
Sb: #13318-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Let's see, 486 (what, no overdrive? <g>) with 20 megs RAM and a gig of
harddisk space...., in a few years I bet we see something comparable in a
laptop running on batteries <g>.  And in a few more years a palmtop...., (and
in a few more years a watch.....)

Seriously, I recently bought one of those small 550 MB Conner IDE drives, and
it looks identical to the rest of the small 3.5 harddisks, and it probably
consumes about the same power.  I don't have the specifics handy, but I'll bet
it is much less than the old 20-30 MB MFM drives like Seagate. Some of my
older, high end graphics boards are full length boards that are monstrosities,
while newer boards are usually half boards employing VLSI technology.  In
fact, I can't remember the last full length board I bought, everything seems
to be half length at the most.  I do like this trend because the machines tend
to run cooler despite the huge increases in performance, and cooler = 'longer
life', usually.

-MarkV

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13326 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  21:32:02
Sb: #13321-> than a gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Mark Vodhanel 72456,463 (X)

Mark:

Things are getting smaller & cooler.  Still the 1 & 2 gig scsi harddrives
command respect <bg>.  My old MFMs were larger than many of the newer IDE
harddrives. In fact, I just removed two Quantum 240 IDEs.  damn they are
little <bg>.

                               bob

#: 13288 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  13:40:05
Sb: are my hard drives ok?
Fm: carl rehbein 76317,275
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

I am looking at buying a new hard drive. Are these supported in the current
release of NT (beta).

Maxtor ext 4380 ESDI drive soft sector with omti sms 8641 controller? or
Western digital 4200 with ide controller. or I have seen a lot of notes on the
trantor t128. Can it be used as a boot device for a scsi hard drive or is it
just cdrom. If it can be a drive, could you direct me to the note that sums up
all the steps needed to get to work in ONE note??? thanks carl p.s. I take rll
drives are out?

There are 2 Replies.

#: 13333 S8/H/W Compatibility
    23-Oct-92  03:08:15
Sb: #13288-are my hard drives ok?
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: carl rehbein 76317,275

Carl,

Here's an excerpt from the Oct hardware list. Individual drives are not
listed. Compatability is generally a disk controller related issue.

*****************************

Disk Controllers ---------------Any controller 100% register compatible with
the following.

Western Digital(R) 1003 (ESDI, IDE) Compaq Intelligent Drive Array



SCSI(R) Host Adapters --------------------The following SCSI adapters have
been tested with CD-ROM and disk drives. [11]

Adaptec AHA-1540b/1542b Adaptec AHA-1740 [2] DPT PM2012B Future Domain MCS-600
Future Domain MCS-700 Future Domain TMC-845 Future Domain TMC-850 Future
Domain TMC-850M(ER) Future Domain TMC-885 Future Domain TMC-1660 Future Domain
TMC-1680 Future Domain TMC-7000EX IBM SCSI Host Adapter [3] Maynard 16-Bit
SCSI Controller [4] NCR 53C700 SCSI Controller [5] NCR 53C710 SCSI Controller
[6] NCR 53C90 SCSI Controller [5] Olivetti ESC-1 UltraStor 14F [6] UltraStor
24F [6]

Native SCSI adapter on MIPS ARC/R4000 systems from ACER, MIPS and Olivetti

****************************

Art

#: 13334 S8/H/W Compatibility
    23-Oct-92  03:10:28
Sb: #13288-are my hard drives ok?
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: carl rehbein 76317,275

Carl,

<<I have seen a lot of notes on the trantor t128. Can it be used as a boot
device for a scsi hard drive or is it just cdrom.>>

Currently the Trantor driver only supports secondary SCSI devices. It does not
support a bootable drive. It also has to be manually installed after NT has
been installed and is working.

RE: RLL

RLL & MFM drives are fine. Slow, but fine. <g>

Art

#: 12999 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  11:29:15
Sb: #12505-Support for SB Pro CD
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Warren Bare 76620,613

Warren,

Below is the list of tested CD ROM drives from the October Hardware
Compatibility List.  I do not beleive the SB-Pro drive is included.

The following CD-ROM drives have been tested. [1]

CD Technology CD Porta-Drive T-3301 Chinon CDX-431 DEC RRD 42-DA Denon DRD 253
Hitachi CDR-1750S Hitachi CDR-3750 IBM 3510 NEC Intersect CDR-73(M) NEC
Intersect CDR-74 NEC Intersect CDR-84 Pioneer DRM-600 Sony CDU-541 Sony
CDU-6211 Sony CDU-7211 Texel DM-5021 Toshiba TXM-3201 Toshiba TXM-3301

[1]  Not all SCSI adapter/CD-ROM drive combinations are compatible due
     to limitations in firmware.  Consult your manufacturer or reseller
     prior to purchase.


Regards,
  -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 13153 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  14:36:26
Sb: #12999-Support for SB Pro CD
Fm: Wade Mintz 72110,520
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X)

>>Below is the list of tested CD ROM drives from the October Hardware
>>Compatibility List.  I do not beleive the SB-Pro drive is included.
...
>> CD Technology CD Porta-Drive T-3301 Chinon CDX-431 DEC RRD 42-DA >>Denon DRD
253 Hitachi CDR-1750S Hitachi CDR-3750 IBM 3510 NEC         >>Intersect
CDR-73(M) NEC Intersect CDR-74 NEC Intersect CDR-84         >>Pioneer DRM-600
Sony CDU-541 Sony CDU-6211 Sony CDU-7211 Texel        >>DM-5021 Toshiba
TXM-3201 Toshiba TXM-3301

Hi Terence.
After about 3 weeks of scrambling I secured 16Meg of memory, another 180 Meg
harddrive and a "CHINON CDX-431" CDROM. Today I was ready to install my NT and
the "FLOPPY PAGE FAULT ERROR" occurred on my 3.5". OK so CSERVE says that will
be fixed on the late '92 release, so I reconfig my 3.5 & 1.2 floppys to boot
from the 1.2... It gets into the boot routines and won't recognize my Chinon
CDX-431 CDROM. So I go to DOS2NT. It works, but WIN-NT still won't recognize my
CDROM. Got any suggestions?

Wade

#: 13287 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  13:22:58
Sb: #13153-Support for SB Pro CD
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Wade Mintz 72110,520 (X)

Wade,

What type of controller are you using.  That, too, must be recognized by
Windows NT.  Assuming that is not the problem, check the SCSI ID for the
CD-ROM.  You should not be using 0 or 1.

I hope this helps,
  -- Terence Hosken [MS]



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13338 S8/H/W Compatibility
    23-Oct-92  04:37:08
Sb: #13287-Support for SB Pro CD
Fm: Wade Mintz 72110,520
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643

............
What type of controller are you using.  That, too, must be recognized by
Windows NT.  Assuming that is not the problem, check the SCSI ID for the
CD-ROM.  You should not be using 0 or 1.
............

Heh. I called Chinon and they told me that MS recommends their CDROM, but that
their controller is incompatible. (sheeesh! I'm down $1000 and still can't
install NT!) So... Is the Trantor a supported controller, or do I need to drop
another $200+ for a controller?

#: 12979 S8/H/W Compatibility
    20-Oct-92  09:55:47
Sb: >1 gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Terence Hoskins [MS] 71075,643 (X)

I am in the process of changing to a Fujitsu harddrive that is greater than a
gigabyte.  This is on the 1542b adapter. Adaptec is sending me the new bios
that does a control card change of cylinders etc.  In dos, I just use fdisk &
format & the drive is formatted to its complete size.  Question: will NT read
this altered bios on the 1542b and will I be able to use this system with NT.
Thanks.

                               bob

#: 13148 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  13:16:29
Sb: #12979->1 gigabyte
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

Bob,

The 1542b is, of course, on the Hardware Compatibility List.  I can't say for
sure about the altered BIOS, though.  Adaptec should have the answer, I would
think.  In a later note you mention having contacted them.  Is this still an
open question?

  -- Terence Hosken [MS]



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13199 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  20:48:54
Sb: #13148->1 gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X)

Terence:

RE: adaptec & > than a gigabyte

Well just converted all over to the big sucker.  The bios update allows the
1542 to see greater than a gig.  have it as my C drive.  Created a partition
with Fdisk & formatted the critter.  No afdisk etc.  have not bothered to load
NT.  Figured I would wait until the beta release.  What with dos changing etc.,
rather only change once in awhile.

According to the Adaptec folks, the translation done in NT is the same as the
translation that the bios does.

                               bob

#: 13178 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  19:04:54
Sb: #12979->1 gigabyte
Fm: Rick Brant 70322,2160
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

  I also have an Adaptec 1542B.  I have a Quantum 230Meg drive, a 1.2 Gig
Micropilis drive, a Sony CDU-541 CD-Rom drive and just installed a TTI tape
backup unit.  All of the drives work well upder NT except the Tape unit. (I
have to post a couple of messages to determine the correct config). My 1.2 Gig
drive formated as a 1 Gig Drive.  I checked the Adaptec Board and they had the
Bios upgrade and all of the tools to install it. (Its on EProm) I also read, at
the very bottom of there message, If I installed the new Bios, it would void
the warrenty!  I thought that 200meg(out of 1000) was not worth the effort!  I
have the drive formated as a 700 Fat volume and a 300meg NTFS volume.  So far
so Good!

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13200 S8/H/W Compatibility
    21-Oct-92  20:49:01
Sb: #13178->1 gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Rick Brant 70322,2160

Well, void the warranty <bg>.  they sent me the bios and the spec sheets etc.
Stuck the bios in and away I went.  The fujitsu is listed as a 1075. It
formatted as 1020.  Only fatalities in the whole thing is that emm386 no longer
will work & I cannot use fastdisk in win 3.1 (not sure why actually).

                               bob



There are 2 Replies.

#: 13222 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  04:01:06
Sb: #13200->1 gigabyte
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246 (X)

bob,

<<Only fatalities in the whole thing is that emm386 no longer will work & I
cannot use fastdisk in win 3.1 (not sure why actually).>>

FastDisk makes a few queries of your system bios settings as well as the
settings returned from DOS. If they do not match, then no FastDisk and you will
get a phase 6 01 error. <g> FastDisk also has similar limitations with
translation. If the translation is done in the bios (instead of the drive
hardware) then you cannot use FastDisk and must instead use the BIOS.

If you are really brave I do know of a switch to force FastDisk on. But you
risk the lose of all your data trying it. It does work for my caching IDE disk
controller which is 99.99 WD1003 compatible. <g>

Art

PS: There is a whole slew of error messages from FastDisk. If you tell me what
yours was I can see if I can find more info on it. I have the DDK and FastDisk
source around somewhere.

There are 2 Replies.

#: 13233 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  06:06:00
Sb: #13222->1 gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

If I am brave??

Art:

You are looking at a person who yesterday had 2 IDE drives, 3 scsi drives, a
bernoulli, a CD-rom, a tapebackup all functional at once.  This is not only
brave it verges on lunacy.  OK! I'll bite.  How do I force fastdisk? better
yet, with the bios resident I cannot use any memory managers in the UMB range.
Not sure how serious this is but reminds me of the old 286 days <bg>.  By the
way, since this is my pick-on Art day, know any disk optimizers that can handle
a gig harddrive?  Thought about partitioning the drive but that puts me back
into the NT vs dos problem in reading drives. Still might do it but need to
"think this one through".  Let's see, if I make the d drive a logical drive on
an extended partition & then make partitions on c, then both dos & NT should
see the world the same way.  By golly I'll do it <bg>.  After all, I only have
500 meg of files to worry about <bg>.  I do the partitioning.  Install sytos +,
this then will copy over necessary files & boom back in business.  then move
files around. open win.ini and edit which belongs where <groan>.  Will take me
at least an hour or so <bg>.

                               bob

#: 13234 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  06:06:07
Sb: #13222->1 gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art:

error message was basically that the computer would not support fastdisk (think
something about interrupt conflict -- the old 13 problem I'll bet).

                               bob

#: 13237 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  06:19:19
Sb: #13200->1 gigabyte
Fm: Ernest J. Anderson 76067,432
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246

PMJI, but the problem with EMM386 comes from the 1542b being a busmastering
controller that doesn't support the Virtual DMA spec in its BIOS (I think). You
can fix this by loading software which double buffers the controller, or which
provides VDS services before you load EMM386.  If you load ASPI4DOS.SYS before
you load EMM386, everything should work fine, except you will be out the memory
for the driver.  Adaptec has a double buffering manager, or if you load
smartdrive double buffering BEFORE emm386 this will work as well, but it will
be slower.

Ernie Anderson

#: 13277 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  11:34:42
Sb: #13237->1 gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Ernest J. Anderson 76067,432 (X)

Ernie:

Good point. In fact, I even knew that. will try & see if that is the problem.
Of course I am using aspi4dos, works great!  Will let you know. you might have
saved the day <fingers crossed one more time <bg>>!


                       bob

#: 13281 S8/H/W Compatibility
    22-Oct-92  12:31:34
Sb: #13237->1 gigabyte
Fm: Bob Chronister 70363,246
To: Ernest J. Anderson 76067,432 (X)

Ernie:

Thank you very much!  Works like a champ.  Sometimes my stupidity is only
exceeded by my enthusiasm to trash things <bg>.  Funny thing, Mike Berhan who
wrote the latest aspi4dos told me about loading the adaptec controller early.
Looks like he was right.

                               bob

#: 13350 S8/H/W Compatibility
    23-Oct-92  05:57:49
Sb: #13200->1 gigabyte
Fm: John Oellrich [AT&T] 72611,1452
To: Bob Chronister 70363,246

Bob,

FastDisk can only support a 504MB drive. It is essentially hardwired to
support 1024 cylinders by 16 heads by 63 sectors by 512 bytes per sector.
These numbers conform to a max drive size contrained by DOS/BIOS/WD1003
limitations.

John




#: 12734 S9/File System
    18-Oct-92  14:51:39
Sb: NTFS access to half?
Fm: Joe G Greer 76470,722
To: anyone

I am unable to modify priveledges on a NTFS volume.


I have installed the Windows NT operating system using the dos2nt process(on
drive d:\).  I have an 8 meg. partition on disk 2 called drive e:\.  I have
logged on as the administrator and run "takeown e:\" from the MS-DOS window.
In the file manager I select drive E:\ and try to allow access to all files,
everyone having access and all previous info changed to the new settings. Then
I get the message "insufficient privelege."

Can anyone help?

Thanks
Joe G Greer II

There is 1 Reply.


#: 12812 S9/File System
    19-Oct-92  10:13:30
Sb: #12734-NTFS access to half?
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Joe G Greer 76470,722

Joe,

In the pre-release, you cannot change access rights for the "system" files
that make up NTFS.  When you attempt to modify all files in the root directory
you will get the message you indicate.  You should, however, be able to
individually modify the non-system files in the root directory, as well as all
the files in any subdirectory tree. I hope this helps,
   -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 12824 S9/File System
    19-Oct-92  10:48:15
Sb: #12431-C low level IO
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Mark Stevens 100020,2561

Mark,

This sounds like a development issue.  Please repost it in a section of
MSWIN32.

WINNT is dedicated to end-user issues about Windows NT (for example
installing/setting up the Windows NT operating system itself), MSWIN32 is
dedicated to developer issues about Windows NT (for example installing/setting
up the SDK for Windows NT)

The more we can all stick to the organization for the forums/sections that the
release notes mention, the easier it ill be for all forum readers to
efficiently get to the info they need.  Thanks!

#: 12969 S9/File System
    20-Oct-92  09:23:26
Sb: #12233-De-Frag for NT
Fm: Carl Byington 74040,1156
To: Tom Hazel [Microsoft] 72360,1176

By my definition, the file system is comprised of the data on the media.  This
data _includes_ the directory structures, indexing pointers, overhead, and
_all_ the other bits that are written to the media.

I also made no recommendation as to the advantages or disadvantages of any
particular algorithm to reduce/eliminate fragmentation.  I simply pointed out
that for each of the three file systems of interest (and more generally for
_any_ file system) there are many possible algorithms that reduce/elminate
fragmentation.  I was responding to a previous comment that implied a
connection between the file system structure and the existence of algorithms
to reduce fragmentation.

#: 12996 S9/File System
    20-Oct-92  11:28:49
Sb: #12969-De-Frag for NT
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Carl Byington 74040,1156

Carl,

I can certainly accept your definition.  One reason for Tom's statements is
that specific fragmentation avoidance techniques happen to have been a part of
the formal HPFS design specification.  The same cannot be said about the NTFS
design specification.

The good news is that the three major file system implementations under
Windows NT (FAT, HPFS, and NTFS) *all* take steps to cut down on file
fragmentation in that all will attempt to create a file as contiguous as
possible given any information available about the allocation size of the
file.

I hope this helps,
  -- Terence Hosken [MS]

#: 13246 S9/File System
    22-Oct-92  08:10:46
Sb: #12996-De-Frag for NT
Fm: Carl Byington 74040,1156
To: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643 (X)

Great.  Now if NT would just come up on my machine.  Sigh...  maybe the next
release.  By the way, how about another plug for TIGA support in the next
release?  If NT is targeted at the high end (requires fairly recent SCSI
adapters, etc), then it seems reasonable that it should support the high end
coprocessed video boards.

To change the subject, is there (or will there be) a mechanism in NT to
migrate a FAT file system to NTFS without a full save/restore to another media.
What I want is an in-place conversion.  I realize that if anything goes wrong,
then we are back to the full save/restore, but if there are no disk errors it
should work.

#: 13286 S9/File System
    22-Oct-92  13:22:53
Sb: #13246-De-Frag for NT
Fm: Terence Hosken [MS] 71075,643
To: Carl Byington 74040,1156 (X)

Carl,

About the TIGA, the best thing to do is to let hardware manufacturers know
that you want drivers for their hardware.

About in place file system conversion, there is actually such a utility in the
October release.

Regards,
  -- Terence Hosken [MS]




#: 12746 S10/Device Drivers
    18-Oct-92  18:52:13
Sb: Trantor SCSI & NT
Fm: Mark Denchy 74000,1651
To: ALL

Has anyone been able to patch the NT Install Disk to handle a Trantor T128/228
SCSI Rom controller?  I have the latest NT Trantor SYS file, but I would like
to be able to run the Graphical Install.  I'm using a NEC CDR-37 ROM.

Mark


#: 12626 S10/Device Drivers
    16-Oct-92  17:28:41
Sb: #12239-Hardware programming
Fm: Robert Keck 74040,3521
To: GMS 100063,2012

Actually it is not overkill at all. One of the kinds of things we do a lot of
is image acquisition and processing. Doing this without a flat address space
is a pain. In addition, most of what we do requires network services. We are
also under pressure to be as POSIX compliant as possible. In addition, it is
frequently desireable to be able to multitask and multithread. We have in the
past used PDP-11's running RSX, but this is no longer an option. More
recently, we have used VMS/VAXstations, but when equipped with a bus, they are
very expensive. In addition, VMS has of late become not Politically Correct.
Furthermore, people are more and more expecting fancy GUI's. While Windows/DOS
provides this, the no preemptive nature of Windows multitasking is not
acceptable.

#: 12960 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  08:13:22
Sb: #12226-Hardware programming
Fm: Daniel Norton 76050,2204
To: Robert Keck 74040,3521

Robert,

The NT DDK Conference is next week and I'll know more by then.  Ask me again
the following week and I'll have an answer. (If Microsoft let's me in).

In the meantime, NT does have the concept of virtual device drivers and
Intel CPUs do have the concept of per-process I/O port access, so it is
conceivable that what you ask might be available.  I believe that I understand
your reasoning and think it's a good idea.
--
Daniel Norton
Author of "Writing Windows Device Drivers"

#: 13029 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  17:11:40
Sb: DTC3290AS SCSI Adaptor
Fm: Alan Back [Microsoft] 71075,647
To: Mike Snowden 100021,3015

Sorry, there is currently no support for the DTC3290AS.

#: 12601 S10/Device Drivers
    16-Oct-92  13:55:10
Sb: T128/CDR83
Fm: Keith Carter 71035,1624
To: whoever

I have a T128 SCSI card with a NEC CDR83 CD-ROM.  Where can I get drivers for
this config?
        Would appreciate any help!
                Keith

#: 13042 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  20:00:51
Sb: #12601-T128/CDR83
Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174
To: Keith Carter 71035,1624

The Trantor T128 is not a supported SCSI adapter. Please refer to the Hardware
Compatability List for your release of Windows NT.

If you require a certain driver for hardware that is not on the list, please
fill out HWFEED.TXT from WINNT Lib 1 and send it to:

   >internet:[e-mail].

That will let Microsoft know you want your specific hardware supported for
Windows NT.

Also contact the hardware manufacture and let them know you want it supported
too. This is like voting...

Thanks!

Gregg Acheson [Microsoft]

#: 12579 S10/Device Drivers
    16-Oct-92  12:13:21
Sb: DAK CDROM Driver??
Fm: - Visitor 75030,2023
To: all

   To ALL,
  Does Microsoft have a device driver for Windows/NT that supports the BSR CD
ROM drive that is currently being marketed by DAK Industries for $199 and
CompuAdd for $169.
  It would certainly make it "Cost Effective" to be able to use the drive with
Windows/NT.
  IBM is currently testing the drive and is trying to ready a driver for
release in their Professional Developers Program.
  I would welcome an invitation to participate in the development of the
driver

   Roger W. Faulds, ISO, Chemical Bank
        Faulds Network Technologies (Independent Consulting)

#: 13043 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  20:00:57
Sb: #12579-DAK CDROM Driver??
Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174
To: - Visitor 75030,2023

Please refer to the Hardware Compatability List for your release of Windows
NT.

If you require a certain driver for hardware that is not on the list, please
fill out HWFEED.TXT from WINNT Lib 1 and send it to:

   >internet:[e-mail].

That will let Microsoft know you want your specific hardware supported for
Windows NT.

Also contact the hardware manufacture and let them know you want it supported
too. This is like voting...

Thanks!

Gregg Acheson [Microsoft]

#: 13044 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  20:01:06
Sb: #12432-additional drivers
Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174
To: mike burroughs 71062,1241

Please refer to the Hardware Compatability List for your release of Windows
NT.

If you require a certain driver for hardware that is not on the list, please
fill out HWFEED.TXT from WINNT Lib 1 and send it to:

   >internet:[e-mail].

That will let Microsoft know you want your specific hardware supported for
Windows NT.

Also contact the hardware manufacture and let them know you want it supported
too. This is like voting...

Thanks!

Gregg Acheson [Microsoft]

#: 13045 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  20:01:10
Sb: #12139-Video in Oct release?
Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174
To: David J. Plunkett 71163,2122

David,

There will be a new Hardware Compatibility List posted for the new release
posted shortly.

Gregg Acheson [MS]

#: 12706 S10/Device Drivers
    18-Oct-92  03:46:21
Sb: Stacker
Fm: - Visitor 71162,2411
To: all

Id the final version of WIN NT going to support stacker or visa-versa?

#: 13026 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  16:41:32
Sb: #12706-Stacker
Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174
To: - Visitor 71162,2411 (X)

Please contact stacker.  They may be working on a Windows NT driver.



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13064 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  22:30:53
Sb: #13026-Stacker
Fm: - Visitor 71162,2411
To: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174 (X)

Thanks. It seems like microsoft should really just build stacker into NT. I'll
call them. I'll call them.

#: 13006 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  12:42:52
Sb: Trantor adaptor
Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546
To: Sysop (X)

I know you must have received hundreds of comments about missing drivers.
Still, I am surprised that the Trantor adaptor (that comes with the NEC CD-ROM
drive) is not supported.  Sure, I can copy to my hard disk, but what the heck.
I know that the Trantor support persons was (nearly) begging the NT team to
support his adaptor.  Are we going to receive a driver update before next
year?

Marc Singer -- Straylight Software




There are 2 Replies.

#: 13041 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  20:00:45
Sb: #13006-Trantor adaptor
Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174
To: Marc Singer 72130,2546

Marc,

Please fill out HWFEED.TXT from WINNT Lib 1 and send it to:

   >internet:[e-mail].

That will let Microsoft know you want your specific hardware supported for
Windows NT. You should *also* contact your hardware manufacture and let them
know you want it supported too. This is like voting...

Gregg Acheson [MS]

#: 13083 S10/Device Drivers
    21-Oct-92  04:18:24
Sb: #13006-Trantor adaptor
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Marc Singer 72130,2546

Marc,

trantor has already released a beta driver for NT to support their cards. You
can get it from their BBS. 510-656-5159

Art

#: 13110 S10/Device Drivers
    21-Oct-92  08:57:40
Sb: Adaptec on DDK?
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Mike Snowden 100021,3015

>2)      If this card is really like a generic adaptec, will there be >
an adaptec driver on the DDK disk, that we can SIMPLY modify, so >        that
our cards are recognized?


You should talk to DTC, they will have the right information for you. They
have been working with MS in developing drivers for their cards.

>This might sway our decision on whether to attend the DDK conference, >so we
need a reply before the close-out date of oct 23rd.

If you want to get a head start on writing NT drivers you should attend the
Conference.

Thanks,

-Krishnan Parameswharan [MS]

#: 13028 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  17:11:34
Sb: OLICOM Drivers
Fm: Alan Back [Microsoft] 71075,647
To: Hans Kamutzki 100015,3007

Sorry, there is no NDIS 3.0 driver available for the Olicom TR card.

#: 13208 S10/Device Drivers
    22-Oct-92  01:48:47
Sb: #13028-OLICOM Drivers
Fm: Hans Kamutzki 100015,3007
To: Alan Back [Microsoft] 71075,647 (X)

Alan,
some folks at IBM told me that they have NDIS Drivers for the TR Board. I
haven't seen them  yet, but if I manage to get them, I'll let you know.
BTW: How could I get the NDSI specifications (probably I end up writing the
driver myself) ?
thanks for your effort, best regards,  hka

#: 13228 S10/Device Drivers
    22-Oct-92  04:41:36
Sb: New HW List
Fm: Anthony Murfet 70602,1634
To: Steve FAit 75300,3143 (X)

Steve,
        Speaking on behalf of a zillion ATI video card users, I see no mention
of 8514 support in the new list, was this a mistake, or is 8514 support a given
for the Beta release?
                                        best...Tony

#: 13030 S10/Device Drivers
    20-Oct-92  17:11:45
Sb: NE2000 Network cards
Fm: Alan Back [Microsoft] 71075,647
To: HowieFomby 76645,754

The NE2000 driver has been tested for the October release.

#: 13299 S10/Device Drivers
    22-Oct-92  14:54:11
Sb: #13030-NE2000 Network cards
Fm: HowieFomby 76645,754
To: Alan Back [Microsoft] 71075,647 (X)

Great news, Alan! (Both about the NE2000, and about the 'October'.) <g>

- Howard Fomby [Prolifix]

#: 13212 S10/Device Drivers
    22-Oct-92  02:41:35
Sb: NT Drivers
Fm: Marc Singer 72130,2546
To: Trantor Systems Ltd.

I installed the nt-tsl drivers on the October release as described in the
winnt.doc file.  My board is the t128 from NEC.  As far as I can tell, there
are no jumpers (switches) on the board for changing the IRQ level.  Also, I
added the registry entries as described and put a second key within the t128
entry called device.  The documentation was vague about the structure of the
keys, but I looked at the other SCSI adaptors and found this to make sense.
Well, the point of all this is that I cannot boot NT anymore.  I receive a
kernel exception 1e.

One more thing, I checked the jumpers and I am using all of the defaults.

Can you help me figure out what is wrong?

Marc Singer -- Straylight Software




There are 2 Replies.

#: 13224 S10/Device Drivers
    22-Oct-92  04:06:09
Sb: #13212-NT Drivers
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Marc Singer 72130,2546

Marc,

<<As far as I can tell, there are no jumpers (switches) on the board for
changing the IRQ level.>>

There is an 8 or 10 pin jumper block on the T128. The lower row of pins are the
ones you will need to jumper. You will need your own jumper cap as the T128
does not have a spare and as you noticed no documentaion in the manual on how
to set them.

However capping pins 1&2 will set IRQ5. Pins 2&3 will set IRQ7.

Art

#: 13295 S10/Device Drivers
    22-Oct-92  14:11:26
Sb: #13224-NT Drivers
Fm: Alex Howard 73310,2237
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

Art,

Is the real beta out?

-a.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13336 S10/Device Drivers
    23-Oct-92  03:15:45
Sb: #13295-NT Drivers
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Alex Howard 73310,2237 (X)

Alex,

<<Is the real beta out?>>

It appears so, but I haven't received a copy yet. <SOB>

Art :(

#: 13238 S10/Device Drivers
    22-Oct-92  06:47:14
Sb: #13212-NT Drivers
Fm: Don Apperson 72700,1042
To: Marc Singer 72130,2546

We are also trying to get the trantor device driver to work. We have not been
able to find any instructions on the use of regedit in the doc files on the
cdrom. Could you please explain, briefly the procedure for adding the t128.sys
driver

#: 13266 S10/Device Drivers
    22-Oct-92  10:53:35
Sb: #13238-NT Drivers
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Don Apperson 72700,1042 (X)

Don,

<<We have not been able to find any instructions on the use of regedit in the
doc files on the cdrom. Could you please explain, briefly the procedure for
adding the t128.sys driver>>

That's because regedit is undocumented. <g> What you will need to do is first
logon as the system administrator (UID = ADMINISTRATOR, UPW = blank) and then
run regedit.

You will need to select the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE->SYSTEM->ControlSet001 subkey.
Once there move to the services subkey and do an ADD KEY (menu item) the key
value is T128. Then do an ADD VALUE (menu selection) for each item in T128 (or
whichever driver). The select T128 and do an ADD KEY for the device line and
then ADD VALUE the sub items.

Also the ini file has one missing item. the SCSC miniport selection should be
a REG_SZ (regular null terminated string).

I'm doing this from memory so I hope I got it all right. One other item. The
jumper setting must be enabled before you boot NT. The T128 requires that IRQ5
be set first, then you can change the IRQ with regedit and then the board
itself and reboot. If no IRQ is set you will get an unhandled kernel
exception. If this happens to you rename the *.sys driver to *.hld (just the
one driver please) and NT will then boot as it did before you instyalled the
driver.

There is a 8 or 10 pin jumper block on the T128. The lower pins need to be
used to set the IRQ. Pins 1 & 2 select IRQ5, pins 2 & 3 select IRQ7.

Art

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13344 S10/Device Drivers
    23-Oct-92  05:43:50
Sb: #13266-NT Drivers
Fm: Michael Williams 75016,1777
To: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613 (X)

I used regini.exe ("regini t348.ini" from commandline) to install my Trantor
MiniSCSI-Plus adapter (rather than use regedit).  It works great, but if a
line is missing - should I add it by hand using regedit.exe?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 13352 S10/Device Drivers
    23-Oct-92  06:03:30
Sb: #13344-NT Drivers
Fm: Arthur Knowles 71041,2613
To: Michael Williams 75016,1777

Michael,

<<I used regini.exe ("regini t348.ini" from commandline) to install my Trantor
MiniSCSI-Plus adapter (rather than use regedit).  It works great, but if a
line is missing - should I add it by hand using regedit.exe?>>

I didn't even think about regini (mostly because I didn't know it was there.
<g>) But if the entry in the ini file is wrong, then so might the entries in
the registry be wrong. I'd look at it with regedit. If it is wrong you can
correct it manually.

You could also edit the ini file and try again. It's just that the ini file is
missing a feild, maybe the program will supply the default, maybe not. Best
check it to be sure.

Art




#: 12617 S11/Network services
    16-Oct-92  16:29:04
Sb: #11940-starting workstation
Fm: Spencer Frink 71461,1001
To: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 (X)

Azfar, thanks for the reply.  I don't believe I have any interrupt conflicts.
MSD.EXE under DOS doesn't show any.  I am running on an HP Vectra 486/33T with
20MB, the Ultra VGA vidio in VGA mode, the Adaptec 1542 SCSI controller with
both the Hard disc and Toshiba 3301-B CD ROM on it.  I have a 3COM503 ethernet
board on interrupt level 5.

I installed using the graphical install, but had to make repairs due to data
corruption apparently caused by the CD ROM and harddisc sharring the same SCSI
bus.  About 1 in 20 files was damaged.

There do not seem to be any other errors in the eventlog related to the
failure to start the workstation service.  There are a large number of errors
logged by STREAMS, but these seemed to be corrolated with SNMP requests from
an HP OpenView station polling my WinNT node.

Thanks, Spencer Frink


#: 12653 S11/Network services
    17-Oct-92  02:45:16
Sb: NT panic - no reply
Fm: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721
To: Azfar Moazzam [MS] 71075,641 (X)

Dear Azfar,

I get sort of kernel panic in connection with telnet interrupt:

invoce telnet through shell -> fine
hit CTRL-C -> telnet leaves properly, shell seems to behave properly
invoce telnet again ->
*** Fatal System Error 0x0...0A ***
*** IRQL expected less or equal

Ethernetcard is SMC8013EPC at I10 /IO280 / MEM CC000
ping + telnet + rpc work.

By the way: From UNIX I'm used to some documentation like
<system administrator's guide & reference>

Where do I find this for Windows NT ?

It's somewhat hard just to scan to all locations within NT FS to
search for possible suggestions on how to set up different system files

f.i. where do I find doc on tcpip.ini etc.

Regards,  Hans-Peter






There is 1 Reply.

#: 12761 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  03:29:35
Sb: #12653-NT panic - no reply
Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453
To: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721

>Dear Azfar, > >I get sort of kernel panic in connection with telnet
interrupt: > >invoce telnet through shell -> fine >hit CTRL-C -> telnet leaves
properly, shell seems to behave properly > >invoce telnet again -> >*** Fatal
System Error 0x0...0A *** >*** IRQL expected less or equal > >Ethernetcard is
SMC8013EPC at I10 /IO280 / MEM CC000 >ping + telnet + rpc work. > >By the way:
From UNIX I'm used to some documentation like ><system administrator's guide &
reference> > >Where do I find this for Windows NT ? > >It's somewhat hard just
to scan to all locations within NT FS to >search for possible suggestions on
how to set up different system files > >f.i. where do I find doc on tcpip.ini
etc. > >Regards,  Hans-Peter >

Hello Hans-Peter, We have seen somewhat similar problems with the July
Preliminary Release of Windows NT and the telnet service. The Telnet service
is being improved for the next update of the Windows NT.

As far as the documentation is concerned, you will find the installation notes
and release notes with your Windows NT distribution CD. More complete
documentation will accompany the final product.

Best Regards,

Azfar Moazzam [MS]

#: 12764 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  03:29:56
Sb: #12558-WinNT Client Connect
Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453
To: rory mcclure 76244,734

>I have WindowsNT server up and running. How can I access/connect to the
server >from a client machine? What software if any do I need to install on
the client >side? >

Hello Rory,

For a client to connect to a workstation running Windows NT, you need either a
LAN Manager Workstation (or a similar SMB based variant NOS) or a machine
running Windows for Workgroups. You can also use another machine running
Windows NT as a client to the server.

Best Regards,

Azfar [MS]

#: 12765 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  03:30:04
Sb: #12547-WINNT Server startup
Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453
To: rory mcclure 76244,734

>Does anyone know why I would get the error message "The service is not
>responding to the control function" when trying to start the server from the
>Control panel of Windows NT. What can I do to fix the problem? >

Hello Rory, This error message indicates that your Windows NT system was not
configured properly. How did you install Windows NT? Did you use the Graphical
Install method or Dos2nt? Also please check for any interrupt conflicts, etc.
on your machine. Also please provide detailed information on the configuration
of the machine in question. This will help in further diagnosing the problem.

Thanks.

Azfar [MS]

#: 12767 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  03:30:26
Sb: #11926-Win NT TCP/IP setup
Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453
To: George Halpert 72370,1151

>No we cannot seem to figure out how to start the LanManagerWorkstation and
>LanManagerServer services.  I think we might be missing some documentation or
>we have overlooked something.  Can you help? > >Regards, > >George Halpert >

Hello George,

Please check and confirm that there are no interrupt conflicts and the IOBASE,
etc. settings for the card are set correctly. What error message and error
code do you see when you type in "Net Start workstation" on the command
prompt. If this command completes successfully then type "Net Start Server"
and see what error you get. Most probably you have an interrupt or memory
conflict issue.

Once we can get the workstation and server started, then we can go ahead and
install the tcpip protocol stack and get it to work.

Best Regards,

Azfar Moazzam [MS]

#: 12814 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  10:18:31
Sb: #11712-network setup
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Bob Bogardus 76470,3066

>Any ideas?  (Why does ioctl(248 use 127.0.0.1???) I am not familiar with
>Gateway, TCP Domain name from UNIX-are these values relevant?

I will need more information to answer your first question. All I can say at
this point is that it is using the loop back driver.

Gateway: Is an IP number in the local IP subnet which can take you to hosts on
a different ip network.

Example:

MachineA: IP#=134.100.1.1 NetMask=255.255.255.0 MachineB: IP#=134.100.2.1
NetMask=255.255.255.0 GatewayA: IP#=134.100.1.2 NetMask=255.255.255.0
GatewayB: IP#=134.100.2.2 NetMask=255.255.255.0

MachineA and MachineB are in two different IP networks (134.100.1 &
134..100.2) GatewayA and GatewayB should ideally be ONE router box with two
different interfaces, one interface on network A and the other on network B.
If machineA were an NT machine, then you would use GatewayA as the gateway
address for that machine.

TCP Domain name: This is used by the Domain Name Service. If you have a DNS
server in your IP network. It usually has a Domain Name associated with it.
This comes up in the TCP configuration because in Lan Manager there is another
domain concept which is different from this domain.

Example: nt.microsoft.com  what I use.

Please send me more information on your first question if you need a much more
complete answer.

Thanks,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 12842 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  13:04:36
Sb: #12229-NT & wfw
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: John Tarbox 71201,2467 (X)


>    I think you missed the point. NetDDE is at a differnt level from SMBs.


John, you are absolutely right. I was thinking of something else.

Klaus to answer your question properly..

NetDDE is not in the current builds of Windows NT. It may be another 2 months
before it will be in the builds.

You could also look at message # 15155 in the section 12 API-RPC/WinNet of the
MSWIN32 forum.

Thanks,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 12815 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  10:18:41
Sb: #12140-TCPIP networking
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Bob Bogardus 76470,3066

Bob:

>I am trying to get assistance on setting up NT to network on TCPIP My first
>message (#11445) was answered by P. Krishan (#11641).  I reviewed his
>comments, but did not get a solution.  I followed with message #11712 with
>more info on my problem.

I have posted a response for 11712. Please review it and if you need more
info, just attach a message. I will follow that thread.

>Will someone respond?  Is there more documentation on how NT networks work
>with TCPIP?  This may be a very simple configuration problem... thanks

I have sent an email within MS to find out the response to the above question.
I will send you a response as soon as I get one.

Thanks for your patience,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 12870 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  16:09:40
Sb: #12140-TCPIP networking
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Bob Bogardus 76470,3066

Bob:

>Will someone respond?  Is there more documentation on how NT networks work
>with TCPIP?  This may be a very simple configuration problem... thanks

There will be tcpip documentation inside the beta kit. Specifically in the
release notes book (the cover will say "Includes TCP/IP"). There is around 60+
pp of tcpip background doc, command reference for the utilites,  and
installation instructions. This might not be part of the final product
documentation, it will go into the "resource kit".

As far as your current problem is concerned, lets follow the other thread

#: 12798 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  07:45:34
Sb: WinNT using NFS server?
Fm: Alain Lapierre 71055,1150
To: microsoft

Windows NT with an NFS server... I want to know if it will be possible to
connect a PC having Windows NT to an NFS server and using all the NFS
capabilities (disk sharing,

peripherals sharing, NIS, Mail, etc...)

If not possible, will it be possible to use a product like PC-NFS from SUN
over Windows NT.

I would appreciate to have any information available on this topic because we
have to choose a product as soon as possible for networking our PC's and we
also want to use Windows NT when available.
                                Alain Lapierre 1-418-666-7691

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12816 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  10:18:53
Sb: #12798-WinNT using NFS server?
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Alain Lapierre 71055,1150

>Windows NT with an NFS server... I want to know if it will be possible to
>connect a PC having Windows NT to an NFS server and using all the NFS
>capabilities (disk sharing,

There are third party vendor's who are working on an NFS implementation for
Windows NT.

>peripherals sharing, NIS, Mail, etc...)

I have not heard of any NIS support within Windows NT. But what we provide is
Domain Name Service, which a lot of Unix machines on the internet use DNS. We
do not provide a DNS server, but a DNS client.

MSMAIL will be bundled as part of the product.

>If not possible, will it be possible to use a product like PC-NFS from SUN
>over Windows NT.

Sun should answer this question.

>I would appreciate to have any information available on this topic because
>we >have to choose a product as soon as possible for networking our PC's and
we >also want to use Windows NT when available.

TCPIP is very strategic for MS. We are providing UNIX connectivity over tcpip.
There are also third party vendors who are working on X Server
implementations.

I would strongly recommend you to read the POSIX.FAQ which was posted in the
WINNT Forum->OS/2, POSIX Apps section. It answers most of the UNIX style
questions for Windows NT.

>                                Alain Lapierre 1-418-666-7691


Thanks,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 12888 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  18:15:56
Sb: #12798-WinNT using NFS server?
Fm: Todd Needham [Microsoft] 73650,240
To: Alain Lapierre 71055,1150 (X)

Alain,

Microsoft is not planning on including NFS support in Windows NT first
release.  We _are_ working with a number of third parties on NFS client and
server support for Windows NT though.  Unfortunately, we cannot release those
names as we are bound by non-disclosure agreements (obviously, no one wants us
pre-announcing their products here).  As soon as companies go public with
their product announcements, the information will be made available here.

In the meantime, you can always contact your favorite PC-NFS or TCP-NFS or
whatever vendor (you mentioned SUN) and ask them what they're doing.  They may
be willing to disclose their plans one-on-one.

Todd Needham Developer Relations Group

#: 12925 S11/Network services
    20-Oct-92  00:06:11
Sb: Networking
Fm: - Visitor 71461,543
To: [e-mail]

To:Microsoft Corp.

Dear Sirs,

  We are unable to configure our system as workstation with old driver
  for WD8003 network card.
  Sytem configuration:
    CPU:I386 with 16MB RAM and 300MB Hard Disk.
    WD8003 config:
       Interrupt No = 2
       I/O address = 0x300
       Memory address = 0xD000
  WindowsNT was installed using graphical method, using CDROM distributed in
  july92.

  We are unable to download new driver wdlan.zip from WINNT forum in
  compuserve.
  Kindly let us know, if it is possible to use old driver for WD80003E
  network card and what are it's limitations?
  Also please let us know what are the modifications to be made in
  registry.
  Thanks
  NISHA DATE
  RAMCO Industies Ltd.
  INDIA

#: 12844 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  13:04:49
Sb: #12485-TCP Streams ?
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514 (X)

>There has been alot of talk about how Windows NT will support Berkley
sockets. >Will there be any official support for a TCP/IP streams layer?

I could interpret your abouve question in two ways:

Q1. Can streams be accessed for the purpose of developing a new streams based
protocol ?

Q2. Can tcpip be accessed via streams ioctls ?

The answer to both questions is Yes. The streams environment is one of the
topics which will be discussed at the upcoming DDK conference in southern
California.

>Or will this have to added on by a third party software package ?  I noticed
>there was a streams layer in the TCP protocol stack, can  I access this ?


You will be able to access the tcpip stack via streams ioctls using the
winstrm.dll. The tcpip stack supports TPI (Transport Provider Interface).

>Carlen

Goodluck,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]




There is 1 Reply.

#: 12880 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  17:23:04
Sb: #12844-TCP Streams ?
Fm: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514
To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 (X)

I think this was the answer that I was looking for.  Should I buy the DDK if I
am intending to write TCP streams based applications ?  I would think that the
SDK should cover this topic.

Carlen



There is 1 Reply.

#: 12945 S11/Network services
    20-Oct-92  07:25:24
Sb: #12880-TCP Streams ?
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Carlen Hoppe 72110,2514

>I think this was the answer that I was looking for.  Should I buy the DDK >if
I

Glad to be of help.

>am intending to write TCP streams based applications ?  I would think that
>the >SDK should cover this topic.

You should get the DDK if you want to write an NDIS transport stack.

>Carlen

Thanks,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 12966 S11/Network services
    20-Oct-92  09:21:31
Sb: #12474-NetBIOS and NT
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Sven Schaetzl 100010,2346

>Hello!

>How can I activate the NETBIOS emulation in Win/NT??? (I've seen the entry
>in >the registry, but what should I do to install it ?)

If you are asking how is NETBIOS implemented ? It is implemented as a mapping
layer on top of transport stacks. NBFP which is the Netbios Frames Protocol
implementes a mapping layer on top of it. TCPIP also does a similar thing.
Infact nbt.sys is the netbios mapping layer for tcpip. This was not shipped
with the July release of NT, but the future releases will have it. The mapping
layer provides a consistent view of the transpor stacks for netbios
applications.

>How is the emulation implemented? Is it possible to open two
>commandline-tasks >and send a message from one to an other or is only one
netbios-task at a >time >possible... (Would be nice for netbios-testing
without a network)

This is a good question. But if you can clarify exactly what you propose to
do, I can try to test it out here and let you know.

>Greetings, Sven.

Goodluck,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 12975 S11/Network services
    20-Oct-92  09:45:44
Sb: #12207-NT telnet crash
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721

>Dear Azfar,

>I get sort of kernel panic in connection with telnet interrupt:

>invoce telnet through shell -> fine >hit CTRL-C -> telnet leaves properly,
shell seems to behave properly >invoce telnet again -> >*** Fatal System Error
0x0...0A *** >*** IRQL expected less or equal

I logged in as administrator and tried:

c:\users\default>telnet

CTRL-C

c:\users\default>dir

c:\users\default>telnet

I tried the above around 8 times and it did not give me a kernel panic. If you
are able to consistently do the above with a specific configuration, I can try
to get our repro-testers to test it out for you. I have a DEC201 card on a
Dell 433DE.

>Ethernetcard is SMC8013EPC at I10 /IO280 / MEM CC000 >ping + telnet + rpc
work.

>By the way: From UNIX I'm used to some documentation like ><system
administrator's guide & reference>

>Where do I find this for Windows NT ?

The documentation that you have is the release kit. You will get specific
admin guides and user guides when the product ships. But the interesting thing
is that with the Beta you might get things which are part of a resource kit.

BTW in the beta you will get a good amount of information on tcpip and its
utilities installation etc.

>It's somewhat hard just to scan to all locations within NT FS to >search for
possible suggestions on how to set up different system files

>f.i. where do I find doc on tcpip.ini etc.

>Regards,  Hans-Peter


Goodluck,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 13000 S11/Network services
    20-Oct-92  11:34:43
Sb: NT crash through telnet
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: H-P Kaelberlah [ML] 100041,1721

Sir,

I get sort of kernel panic in connection with telnet interrupt:

invoce telnet through shell -> fine hit CTRL-C -> telnet leaves properly,
shell seems to behave properly invoce telnet again -> *** Fatal System Error
0x0...0A *** Please see the response to your message number #12207 and follow
that thread.

Thanks,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 12698 S11/Network services
    17-Oct-92  19:04:53
Sb: Network DDE & NT
Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267
To: all

Can anybody tell me what the situation is with network DDE and Windows NT. I
have been looking at using netDDE with windows for workgroups, and would like
to run some of the client/server apps on NT.

When will NT support be available to do this?

#: 12841 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  13:04:30
Sb: #12698-Network DDE & NT
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X)

>Can anybody tell me what the situation is with network DDE and Windows NT. I
>have been looking at using netDDE with windows for workgroups, and would like
>to run some of the client/server apps on NT.

NetDDE is not in the current builds of Windows NT.

>When will NT support be available to do this?

It may be another two months before it will be in the builds.

You can also look at message #15007 in Section 12 API-RPC/WinNet of the
MSWIN32 forum.

Thanks,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]




There is 1 Reply.

#: 12885 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  18:00:35
Sb: #12841-Network DDE & NT
Fm: Graham Welland 70023,1267
To: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222 (X)

Thanks for the feedback.

Does this mean that NetDDE will be in the final build? Or will it be an extra
facility available with LanMan for NT?

Thanks in advance

Graham

#: 13018 S11/Network services
    20-Oct-92  14:56:06
Sb: #12885-Network DDE & NT
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X)

>Does this mean that NetDDE will be in the final build? Or will it be an
>extra

Yes it should be in the final build.

#: 12843 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  13:04:43
Sb: #12698-Network DDE & NT
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Graham Welland 70023,1267 (X)

The message number in my previous message should be..

Message# 15155 in Section 12 API-RPC/WinNet section of the MSWIN32 system.

Thanks,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 13055 S11/Network services
    20-Oct-92  21:26:11
Sb: FTP and Passwords
Fm: Barry M. Tannenbaum 71212,3133
To: all

I'm in the process of porting an application to NT.  Our source library is on
a VMS node on our network.  I have created a .BAT file to copy the sources
over to our NT system using FTP.  Unfortunately, FTP insists on having me type
in the password from the console.

On our Unix systems you can specify password information in a .netrc file in
your login directory.  VMS lets me specify proxy information.  Is there any
equivalent in the NT implementation of FTP?

Thanks for the help.

        - Barry

P.S.  I'm new to Compuserve, so please go easy if this is the wrong forum to
post this in.

#: 12837 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  12:05:15
Sb: RPC
Fm: Jacob  Avital 71172,2722
To: sysop (X)


We are porting a distributed realtime system to WinNT and plan to use the
built-in RPC (current version 1.0a) as the main communucation tool.

1.  Apparently there is a mismatch between the on-line documentation and the
implementation of RpcMgmtIsServerListening() function.  When the server does
not listen, the function returns RPC_S_SERVER_NOT_LISTENING (code 1738( rather
then RPC_S_NOT_LISTENING  (code 1715).

2.  I wrote a prototype with two processes and bi-directional RPC connection
(the reversed connection is to avoid the use of the callback mechanism). Let
A, B denote the to processes and A.foo and B.bar two remote function exported
by A and B respectively.  I tried recursive call sequence in which A.foo calls
B.bar which calls A.foo ...
The sequence seems to hang up after a single call in each direction.

Thanks Koby

#: 12982 S11/Network services
    20-Oct-92  10:01:15
Sb: #12837-RPC
Fm: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742
To: Jacob  Avital 71172,2722 (X)

Hi Koby - as Pete mentioned in his reply to the identical message in
  MSWIN32/6/15374, please post questions on RPC development in
  MSWIN32 section 12.  I'll begin looking into this for you, if you
  could just please repost it in MSWIN32/12 so there will be a thread there
  for this, that would be great

thanks, Bruce



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13107 S11/Network services
    21-Oct-92  08:49:51
Sb: #12982-RPC
Fm: Jacob  Avital 71172,2722
To: Bruce Ramsey/Microsoft 70324,2742

Hi Bruce
Thanks for your direction I'll post RPC messages to MSWIN32 secstion 12
Koby

#: 13137 S11/Network services
    21-Oct-92  12:03:44
Sb: NT & win workgroup
Fm: Scott B. Suhy[MS] 71075,3225
To: Ken Granderson 76307,3571

Ken,

Are both machines in the same Workgroup?  If so change one of them and see if
the problem still persists.

Regards, Scott B. Suhy[MS]

#: 13001 S11/Network services
    20-Oct-92  11:34:53
Sb: RCP problem
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Scott Wheeler 100022,2005

Scott:

Our repro-testing labs need some more information on this problem. Can you
fill in the bug report form and send it to us ? In particular we need also
information about other applications you are running at the time.

The feedback I got from the repro folks { It sounds a bit like a 'random'
overwrite or that fileman is not reading the files correctly. Are you able to
pen the files or are the files corrupted in any way if  you use them. }

We really appreciate your working with us on this Scott.

Thanks,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 13155 S11/Network services
    21-Oct-92  14:52:33
Sb: RCP problem
Fm: Krishnan P [Microsoft] 71075,3222
To: Scott Wheeler 100022,2005

Scott,

Just to clarify, you can fill out the bugrep.txt (bug report) and submit it on
the Library 3 in the WINNT forum.

We are ready to proceed with the repro-testers but we are lacking the bug
report.

Thanks again,

-Krishnan Parameshwaran [MS]

#: 12614 S11/Network services
    16-Oct-92  16:02:12
Sb: WFW & NT
Fm: Howard Alpert 71561,3315
To: sysop (X)

We have a pre-release of Windows NT and we also have a beta copy of WFW. Is it
possible to get the Workgroup applications to work with NT? or do we have to
wait for LAN Manager for NT?

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12763 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  03:29:49
Sb: #12614-WFW & NT
Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453
To: Howard Alpert 71561,3315

>We have a pre-release of Windows NT and we also have a beta copy of WFW. Is
it >possible to get the Workgroup applications to work with NT? or do we have
to >wait for LAN Manager for NT? >

Hello Howard, Windows NT and Windows for Workgroups can communicate with each
other as long as they are using the same protocol stack. You can use NetBEUI
on both machines and then you will be able to share resources between the two
workstations. LAN Manager for Windows NT provides high-end enterprise wide
network and domain management capabilities. To simply communicate between
Windows NT and Windows for Workgroups, you do not need LAN Manager for Windows
NT.

Best Regards.

Azfar Moazzam [MS]




There is 1 Reply.

#: 12810 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  10:08:58
Sb: #12763-WFW & NT
Fm: Stephen Mattin 71054,611
To: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 (X)

My company, Focus Software, is interested in trying out WFW with the current
NT version, which we have.  We do not have the Beta WFW, however.  At NetWorld
Dallas, the people demoing WFW suggested I ask on CompuServe to see if it is
possible to get a copy before it hits the streets.  WFW seems to be in the
"no-mans land" between Beta and commercial release and I am interested in
getting started on interoperability testing for our commercial clients as soon
as possible.  If anyone at MS could suggest an appropriate contact to obtain
WFW quickly, please send Internet mail to [e-mail].

Thanks,

SAM

#: 13157 S11/Network services
    21-Oct-92  14:56:09
Sb: WFW & NT
Fm: rory mcclure 76244,734
To: all

I have WFW running on two workstations and NT running on a server.  My pr
problem is that I cannot access the server from the workstations. I am able to
access the workstations from each other and set up shared directories.  The
server does appear in the "Connect Network Drive" dialog, but when I click on
it in order to see Shared Directories, I get a STOP message, "Access has been
denied.".

Is there something obvious that I'm missing in setting up the server?

#: 12766 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  03:30:16
Sb: #12061-NT & WINWRK Network
Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453
To: Ronald E Johnson 72570,2150

>Thany you for your response to my questions on the CONTROL
>PANEL-SERVER-SERVICES functions.  I was able to get XACTSRV to start at
>start-up. >  RE being able to see the WINWRK machine from the NT machine.  I
had both >machines with the same WORKGROUP name and was not able to see the
WINWRK >machine from the NT machine. (Was able to share drives etc. just not
able to >see them from the menus-list boxes that set up such things.)  It
isn't clear >to me what DOMAIN means in the WINWRK context. >  I changed the
WINWRK - WORKGROUP name to the same name as the DOMAIN name of >the NT
machine.  If NT is started prior to WINWRK,  WINWRK hangs during >startup with
the full screen Windows 3.1 logo displayed.  If WINWRK is started >prior to
NT, NT reports that the server cannot be started even though WINWRK >can share
the NT machine drives.  However, the NT machine cannot share the >WINWRK
machine drives.  Intend to study the WINWRK documentation more fully!? >Would
appreciate any insights you might offer. >     Ron Johnson >

Hello Ron, In order to be able to see the the machines running Windows For
Workgroups from the workstation running Windows NT, the workgroup name on both
machines should be the same. From your message it appears that you have named
the workgroup name on Windows for Workgroups to be the same as the DOMAIN on
Windows NT. Instead make the workgroup name on Windows NT be the same as the
workgroup name on Windows for Workgroups.

The scenario that you described with Windows NT starting first or Windows for
workgroups starting first and then either a hang or LanManagerServer not
starting is quite intriguing. When Windows for Workgroups is started first, do
you see the server service started when you type in "Net Start"? What error
message and error code do you get when you try to start the server service? Is
the workstation service running? Also, what errors (if any) are you getting in
the eventlog?

Azfar [MS]

#: 13172 S11/Network services
    21-Oct-92  18:29:04
Sb: #12766-NT & WINWRK Network
Fm: Eric Swenson [Borland] 76376,2617
To: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 (X)

Azfar,

You say that the workgroup name of the Windows/NT machine must be the same as
the workgroup name of the Windows for Workgroups machine.  This seems strange
to me, since a machine in workgroup XXX cn see machines in workgroup YYY under
Windows for Workgroups.  In other words, it is not necessary for the machines
to be in the same workgroup to be seen under Windows for Workgroups.

In fact, my Windows/NT machine (running Build 340) *does* use the same
workgroup as my three Windows for Workgroup machines, but it can see machines
in all workgroups (not just the workgroup that the NT machine is in).

Did you by any chance mean to say that the Windows/NT workgroup must match
*one* of the Windows for Workgroup workgroups?  Even this seems strange.

-- Eric

#: 13307 S11/Network services
    22-Oct-92  15:44:57
Sb: Novell and NT
Fm: Kevin Kieller 73047,1110
To: ALL

Can anyone provide any information regarding connecting a Windows NT
workstation to a Novell 3.11 network via IPX?  Has Microsoft or Novell
developed a alpha or beta redirector?  Is it available anywhere?

#: 13087 S11/Network services
    21-Oct-92  05:51:54
Sb: Network Server & 3C507TP
Fm: Ron Anderson 72241,113
To: Sysop (X)

Anyone,

I'm trying to get NT going as a server on a small 10Base-T test network.
Hardware includes Cabletron hub and 3Com 3C507TP NICs.  NT boots ok and the
bindings appear to be ok, but neither the workstation or the server service
will start.  Any ideas?

Thanks,

Ron

#: 13313 S11/Network services
    22-Oct-92  17:34:32
Sb: #13087-Network Server & 3C507TP
Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174
To: Ron Anderson 72241,113

Hi Ron,

Please start the event viewer and double click on the oldest event. scroll
through until you find an error releated to the workstation and let me know
what the error is.  Also, you can chose File->SaveAs and save the event log to
a text file

#: 12644 S11/Network services
    16-Oct-92  21:22:33
Sb: Ne2000
Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541
To: sysop (X)

I assume that sombody has turned in a reqest for a driver for a NE2000 network
card.
If they havent could you let me know?
so I can turn in a HDreport
thanks
dan

There are 2 Replies.

#: 12707 S11/Network services
    18-Oct-92  04:06:49
Sb: #12644-Ne2000
Fm: Neil Robinson 100016,2775
To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 (X)

Send one anyway. As far as I can tell, it is sort of like voting. The more
noise they hear about support for a give device the more likely they are to
write a driver for it...

Ciao, Neil

There is 1 Reply.

#: 12740 S11/Network services
    18-Oct-92  17:51:08
Sb: #12707-Ne2000
Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541
To: Neil Robinson 100016,2775

Send one anyway. As far as I can tell, it is sort of like voting. The more
noise they hear about support for a give device the more likely they are to
write a driver for it...


Ok I see your point!
and I will Vote as well! I just wish the Gov would have BETA programs to test
there ideas out! :)

Dan

#: 12879 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  17:17:28
Sb: #12740-Ne2000
Fm: Neil Robinson 100016,2775
To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541

> I just wish the Gov would have BETA programs to test > there ideas out!

Not a bad idea, but who are they going to get to handle the bug reports ;-)

Ciao, Neil

#: 12762 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  03:29:41
Sb: #12644-Ne2000
Fm: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453
To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541 (X)

>I assume that sombody has turned in a reqest for a driver for a NE2000
network >card. >If they havent could you let me know? >so I can turn in a
HDreport >thanks >dan

Hello Dan, Please go ahead and send in the hardware request form (HWFEED.TXT).
The [e-mail] alias is a one way alias. Although a few people may
have already sent in the request, it wouldn't hurt to send it in again. This
will also indicate that there a lot of people interested in the support for
this network interface card.

Thanks.

Azfar [MS]





There is 1 Reply.

#: 12794 S11/Network services
    19-Oct-92  07:20:16
Sb: #12762-Ne2000
Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541
To: Azfar Moazzam - Microsof 72370,453 (X)

will do !
I always feel empty when sending in the report on HW.
Off it goes and Im never sure if I filled out the form right - or - if it
realy go to where it was to go. :)


Dan

#: 12955 S11/Network services
    20-Oct-92  08:05:05
Sb: #12644-Ne2000
Fm: Don Perry 76676,1127
To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541

I could use NE2000 support in a bad way myself.  If it doesn't make it to NT
I'll have to buy a bunch of new network cards.  What is the best way to
"vote"?

Don

#: 13322 S11/Network services
    22-Oct-92  21:08:40
Sb: #12955-Ne2000
Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541
To: Don Perry 76676,1127

The only way to Vote that I Know to VOTE is to send in a hard ware text report
to an internet address

#: 12961 S11/Network services
    20-Oct-92  08:13:26
Sb: #12644-Ne2000
Fm: Daniel Norton 76050,2204
To: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541

What!?  No support for NE 2000!?  Aiieeee!  Vote early, vote often!

M'softies viewing, please count my vote! -Daniel

#: 13312 S11/Network services
    22-Oct-92  17:34:27
Sb: #12961-Ne2000
Fm: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174
To: Daniel Norton 76050,2204

Yes, your vote was counted and the NE2000 will be included in the October
release!

Gregg Acheson [MS]



There is 1 Reply.

#: 13323 S11/Network services
    22-Oct-92  21:09:22
Sb: #13312-Ne2000
Fm: Daniel Peterson 70363,2541
To: Gregg Acheson [Microsoft 72360,1174

:) !




#: 12632 S12/Printing
    16-Oct-92  18:16:24
Sb: #12319-Printing CD Documention
Fm: Robert H. Bernard 71210,246
To: Devlin Spearman(MS) 71075,645 (X)

Hello Devlin,
I moved the files to my Macintosh (remembering of course to change the EOLs)
and used both Aldus's SendPS and Word to get PS to the printers.  Neither one
worked, and I tried two different LaserWriters, on older and one new.
I can also connect the LW to a serial port on the PC but I haven't had it that
way since 1987.
Bob
Anyway, why should it have anything to do with printing problems in NT?


#: 12868 S12/Printing
    19-Oct-92  16:06:51
Sb: #12539-Printing problem..
Fm: Sam Karroum [MS] 71075,642
To: Hien Nguyen 71204,254

Hien,

Which IRQ is your SoundBlaster card using? By defualt, the SB uses IRQ 7. If
that's your current settings you are sharing the interrupt with LPT1 and
that's not allowed. Change the IRQ settings of the SB to a free IRQ, and try
printing.

Regards, Sam Karroum [MS]

#: 13134 S12/Printing
    21-Oct-92  11:41:35
Sb: Canon LBP-8 prn. driver
Fm: Thomas Nielsen 100065,2167
To: ALL

When trying to print something from NT (July preliminary release) on my
Canon LBP-8III laser, NT treats the Canon printer as a PostScript device
resulting in outputting a raw PostScript file on the printer instead of
the correct image.
It seems like the printer driver has been configured using the PostScript
engine rather than the raster driver.

Is this corrected in the next release (october) or is there a way to
work around the problem ?

Regards

    Thomas




#: 12773 S13/Security
    19-Oct-92  03:58:08
Sb: C2 certif. in progress?
Fm: David A. Solomon 71561,3603
To: sysop sysop (X)

I've heard conflicting info from MS on the status of the C2 security
evaluation -- I heard once that NT would be "C2-certifiable" but that due to
the cost/effort/etc., MS would not actually go for the certification. Another
time I heard that NT is definitely in the C2 certification process now.

Can anyone from MS clarify this?

Thanks!


#: 12830 S13/Security
    19-Oct-92  11:05:51
Sb: #12773-C2 certif. in progress?
Fm: Tom Hazel [Microsoft] 72360,1176
To: David A. Solomon 71561,3603 (X)

David,
    The Windows NT system is being designed so that it can be C2 Certified.
When Windows NT is released, a customer can have his system C2 certified by
the process that is in place to do that. Please understand that it is my
understanding that you do not certify an operating system but you certify the
individual installation of the operating system/hardware/enviroment.
    We are currently in process of having Windows NT evaluated at the C2 level
so that individual installations can be certified at that level.

Tom Hazel [MS]




There is 1 Reply.

#: 12958 S13/Security
    20-Oct-92  08:11:54
Sb: #12830-C2 certif. in progress?
Fm: Scott Alexander 76556,557
To: Tom Hazel [Microsoft] 72360,1176 (X)


the process that is in place to do that. Please understand that it is my
understanding that you do not certify an operating system but you certify the
individual installation of the operating system/hardware/enviroment.




#: 12840 S14/Documentation
    19-Oct-92  12:52:35
Sb: PageMarq 20 Prob.
Fm: David W Beekman 76366,3222
To: sysop (X)

I'm trying to print the Win NT Documentation a Compaq PageMarq 20 and I get an
error from the printer telling me that it needs the GEM Preamble to be
downloaded first. Any suggestions? Do you know how I can get my hands on a GEM
preamble.

  Thanks in advance,
     David Beekman