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(Ted) Ok let's get started. Does anyone have an opening remark? ga (DBC) Yes, I just saw a piece on CNN news about the sightings) in VA over the last several months. Its seems they had some sort of conference with dan gordon complaining about lack of big media coverage. ga (Ted) Anyone else see the CNN coverage also DBC when was it on today? GA (DBC) yes, just about an hour ago.ga (Ted) It seems, that Dan Gordon could supply Drax with fodder for his JFORUM controversy. GA (DRAX) I mentioned the Wytheville thing in the original message on JFORUM. You saw the reaction. "Ho-hum." GA (Ted) Yes, perhaps now you could get some support. ga (DRAX) Care to place a wager? Ha! (MJ-C) Hi,could everyone identify himself/herself, so we can know to whom we are talking. The list of users is not of much help. Thanks. (Dale) hahahaha, I tried that Marge. No you can't (Ted) Ok, one more time... I'm Ted Markley. Others GA (DRAX) Jim Speiser (Joe) Joe Reichardt (DON) Don Ecker (Gerry) There is a directory function where people have left short descriptions of themselves. (Gerry) I'm Gerry Zeitlin (Ted) Ok, I guess thats all that care to reveal. Marge if you would hit a CR after about 60 characters or so you don't go off the screen. GA (DRAX) Yes, but its optional, and sometimes doesnt match with CO handles. GA (Gerry) Can it be searched for user id? (DRAX) Yes (MJ-C) ?Thanks! I appreciate it. How do I get to the directory function? (Ted) Marge, In the main menu there is a member directory entry try that GA. (Ted) There have been some new developments last week one or two DRAX has up loaded also I have heard rumors that Gulf Breezes is falling under question. Any comments? GA (MJ-C) Yes, I remembered ALT-S. Both Bob Boyd and Dr. Willy Smith have some doubts about Gulf Breeze case now Bob Boyd has compiled a 19-pt. letter stating his problems with the case. Dan Wright has a copy. Bruce Maccabee is analyzing film from there and will speak on the photoanalysis at MUFON Symposium in Nebraska. Gulf Breeze witnesses will be at Neb. Am I doing this correctly or should I wait to be recognized to type message? (Ted) Ok, just a reminder to those new to our CO. We operate under formal rules. If you want to ask a question or make a comment type a "?" or a "!" and I will take down you name and put you in queue. (DRAX) OK, Ted. Just wanted to ask if CNN had anything on Gulf Breeze, and also Marge, you might want to quickly identify those names for people who are unfamiliar to the field (but do it in queue so as not to confuse people). GA (DON) Ok, a quick one, is there anyway to get a copy, of the local Fla. broadcast of the Gulf Breeze news tape? ga (Ted) Can any one answer That? GA (DRAX) John Lear was sent a copy FedEx, I can ask him how he got it. GA (Ted) Good. Do that GA (DON) I tried to call Lear, no answer is he out flying? ga (Ted) Drax can you comment? I've gotten busy also. GA (DRAX) He may be. Try later. GA (DON) thanks.. (Ted) Marge perhaps you could fill us in on some of the names you dropped earlier. GA (MJ-C) Dan Wright is MUFON's Dir. of Investigations; Dr. Willy Smith is a physicist in Florida and he runs a computer program called UNICAT with the most credible cases. Bruce Maccabee is an optical physicist whose specialty is photoanalysis. Hope this helps to fill you in on names I mentioned. (Dale) Can anyone supply me with some paperwork on the proper way to handle an F.O.I.A. request?? (DRAX) Dale, do you get the International UFO Reporter from CUFOS? There was an article by Don Schmitt, I believe, which went through the groundrules. I can send it to you if you want. GA (Dale) OH. I must have it around here, but missed the article will let you know. Thanks. GA (MJ-C) I Suggest that you contact Barry Greenwood of CAUS,(MJ-C) at Mass MUFON,. P.O. Box 176, Stoneham, MA 02180 (Ted) Marge, can you tell us a little about UNICAT ?GA (MJ-C) I am not exactly certain of the status of UNICAT at present time. at one time it had 400 cases, and Willy Smith had a form with criteria and information he required for listing a case there./ If you'd like I can furnish his address., but would prefer to mail it to you rather than to put it on computer. (MJ-C) Ted, I got your EMail. thanks! I put a notice in this month's MUFON Newsletter asking for persons with modems to join in this ISSUES forum on Sundays. (Dale) Thanks Marge.ga (Ted) Great, I think there would be a lot of mutual benefit to ISSUES and MUFON to cooperate. OkGA (MJ-C) Are you aware of the recent letter sent by Richard Doty to Barry Greenwood of CAUS in which he reverses his stand on the Kirtland AFB sightings from OSI document, 1980? ga (Ted) No, Tell us more. GA (MJ-C) Doty authored the documents which detail 5 overflights of UFOs (disc-shaped in one case) over Manzano Weapons Storage Area at Kirtland AFB in summer of 1980/ He also met with Peter Gersten (NY attorney of CAUS) and Linda Howe at that time and told them more about the sightings. He now is denying that he said the things they claim that he said, and cites official AF policy, and asks that no one contact him again. The letter will be published in the next issue of JUST CAUS (CAUS= citizens against UFO Secrecy). (DON) Ok Drax, two questions for you. First is there any more information on the Texarkana case, and the most recent msgs that you sent to our board in Boise concerned Gulf Breeze and two agents of some kind bearing a warrant to seize info. Ok, do you or anyone know who they were, and what kind of warrant was it, and issued by whom? Fed, local etc. and were they genuine? ga (DRAX) OK, On Texarkana, no new information that I've gotten, except a possible correlation with another case just being reported by Washington State MUFON (Don Johnson), a pilot reported seeing a "box- shaped" UFO near Edwards AFB. Some of the Tex witnesses reported a similar sounding craft. As to the warrants, I only mentioned that the main witness reported having two guys in civvies come to his door and wave a "Material Seizure Warrant" at him to confiscate the photos and camera. He did not turn them over. I know nothing beyond that. Don;t know if it or they were genuine or not. GA (DON) Ok, in some corners this has the appearance of a classic beginning of possible "MIB" interference. do you know if there were any other attempts to gather info, or breakins, etc, and was the witness threatened? Did he report to the local law enforcement? ga (DRAX) Alas, Don, you're asking for details I'm just not privy to. This whole schmear is unfolding as we speak, and its hard to get a handle on just what is happening or has happened, especially since most of what we have heard on this side of the country is second or third hand. The details are going to spill out, they will just take some time. GA (Dale) I'd like to switch topics a second. Marge, has MUFFON, in Texas, had any problems over the JMP letter stating that people would write to Andrus? And, received any letters? on this hoax document. ga (MJ-C) Gulf Breeze newspaper reports two uniformed AF investigators visited one of the anonymous photographers and demanded the photographs. He did not have them to turn over. No, M<UFON in Texas has not had any problems that I know of over the JMP letter, but Walt Andrus is putting a notice in the Journal stating that MUFON is not in any way involved with that group, nor will we accept any mail for them. Speaking of MIBs, MIchigan MUFON is reporting several incidents involving some sort of surveillance, including black unmarked helicopters over homes of witnesses; investigators' mail being sloppily opened and resealed with scotch tape and telephones being tapped. Dan Wright has put a note of warning to all State Directors in his latest newslett er to indicate if they have sealed and reopened letters. Is Big Brother Watching, or are we just getting paranoid? ga (DBC) Marge, what part of MI are these things happening? I'm in MI and have heard nothing. I have, however, waking in the night a few times by what sounded like a helicopter. (Prob. no connection>) ga (MJ-C) They are mostly in the Lansing area and in Flushing.) ga (Dale) I was just wondering if everyone knew that if you make a phone call and it is done through the satellite, that the NSA makes transcripts and then goes through it for buzz words.ga (DRAX) They must be having a field day with THIS conversation, then! (DON) does ma bell know? (Ted) Yes. I have heard that also. So you better watch out, you better not try. GA (Gerry) Also have some thoughts about this buzzword monitoring. I'm sure they do it, but I also know the technology for speech recognition is still pretty primitive except perhaps at NSA but actually it is difficult for machines to recognize words unless they are trained to recognize them when spoken by specific speakers.ga (DRAX) Its my understanding that the NSA is about five years ahead of the rest of the world in computer technology also, my gosh, the Sharper Image offers telephones with speech recognition capabilities, that don't require training! GA (MJ-C) I have been told about the NSA monitoring phone calls by satellite. Someone from A T & T told me that. Also, all overseas calls are recorded by NSA. I also have reports of strange happenings on calls to Indiana from Michigan. ga (Ted) What kind of happenings? GA (MJ-C) Michigan investigators called Indiana from a home of a friend and got the same phone interference he got when calling that investigator at his Michigan home from the caller's Michigan home. ga (Gerry) Have to agree with the replies to my comment. I guess I should have thought it through more carefully.ga (DON) Ok, this phone interference phenomena is an old story in ufology, it go's back over 30 years, and Keel addressed it in several of his books rather well. So it would appear that whoever is doing it has had the tech. for quite a while. ga (Dale) I was just going to say that I don't think that there is anyone here who hasn't had to send something 2 to 3 times in the mail for it to get where it was suppose to go and has anybody that you know of ever filed with NSA for FOIA request on whether they had a file with your name on it, or are they exempt, since we don't even know what their charter says. ga (Dale) NSA = National Security Agency (Ted) I don't think you apply to the NSA for FOIA information. (DRAX) Just wanted to know if anyone had any thoughts on APRO finally calling it quits. Did you know about that, Marge? GA (Ted) I think it is a shame. Someone should pick up the ball (torch) and carry it on. I nominate DRAX!!!! GA (DRAX) I will not seek, nor will I accept........GA (Dale) Jim, When did this happen? Can I keep my ID card (New Director of APRO) and it is scarry to think that there is only 1 real civilian organization left.ga (DRAX) According to Tom Mickus of ParaNet Pi in Toronto a letter was sent out by an APRO underling whose name escapes me saying that Coral is just in such poor shape that she cannot continue publishing, and the membership is dwindling steadily. The letter ended "Goodbye for APRO." Sad, after 36 years. GA (Dale) By civilian, I meant that MUFON, I believe is the only organ that allows a low life like me to bee a State Section Director I don't believe CUFO's does this.ga (MJ-C) NSA is not exempt under the FOIA. We have NSA documents. I didn't know about APRO. Sad! Jim, should we go to ask Coral to donate the files to the U of A? I doubt if she would let MUFON have them, but there must be a wealth of case info. there. (Ted) Perhaps Phil Klass would like the files eh? GA (MJ-C) Also, DRAX, did you know that John Timmerman is going to be in Phoenix on May 14 with the CUFOS photo exhibit? ga (DRAX) Yes, Dale called and told me GA (DRAX) I didn't know the photo exhibit would be there too, though I think we would have to pry the files from Coral's cold fingers. But t'would be nice to give them to U of A (or maybe Barry? Ha!) GA (Ted) I was only joking about Phil Kl Ass. GA (Dale) I like your spelling Ted (DRAX) I HOPE so! Ha! (MJ-C) I am going to have to leave you guys to go to an MJ-? meeting. Is ther3e anything else I can answer for you? Sorry to have to call it quits. Duty calls. ga (Dale) I can't believe I spent $18.95 for Kl ass's new book of which most is old stuff...who profits from UFO's? the Pro's or the anti's? I measured the book its less than an inch thick.ga (Ted) Marge, I hope you will Log on soon and pick up you email. I wish you a Good Evening. Nite MArge! GA (DRAX) APRO underling = Robert G. Marsland. Night Marge (MJ-C) I will, and in June, we are going to have several prominent UFOlogists here, incl. Mike Swords, Barry Greenwood, Walt Webb, Budd Hopkins, and so we will arrange to log on that Sunday and have a great conference. Nite all! ga (DRAX) <Ahem> (Ted) Nite marge. <GO DRAX> (DBC) nite marge (Dale) Geraldo Drax Rivera? (DRAX) No, just kidding. (DRAX) I gotta go too. Bowling time. See y'all! (Ted) Hookem good Drax! GA (DRAX) /OUTTAHERE (Ted) <drax has a chic waiting I'll Bet> GA (Dale) Bowling, not Balling. (DBC) This is probably totally coincidental but I noticed on the last couple of COs there have been 2 to 3 users (SIG, monitoring? or handles) showing a node DCE which is Arlington VA...Isn't that CIA headquarters and where is NSA?ga (Ted) AH HA. The SOURCE is located in Arlington VA, Those Thieves!!!! <ga don> (DON) Ok, I've read from dl last year on one co. that Phil Kl ass had his "people monitor this ch. so if various reports are correct that our govt. takes this subj. seriously, do you really think that they would not have a vested interest in monitoring this forum. no, I didn't think so. I guess it really is past 1984, eh?? ga (Gerry) NSA is at Ft. Meade, MD. You have to assume that this conference is in the open. But why get paranoid about it?. Anyway, NSA is very large and I would expect there to be interested folks there just as anywhere else.ga (Ted) Ok. You know anyone of us might be associated with NSA. Perhaps... But no! GA (Dale) If you want to know about the NSA, read "The Puzzle Palace" by John Bamford...Also, Klass does have spies in the wings they send all my local stuff to Klass from Free-Net in Cleveland lastly, my sister in law worked for NSA, and they have orders after they are out to report anyone that tries to talk to them about their activities up to 5 years after separation.ga (Ted) Ok. Mike welcome. Just a reminder to those new to our CO. We operate under formal rules. If you want to ask a question or make a comment type a "?" or a "!" and I will take down you name and put you in queue. (DBC) speaking of sensitive issues, anyone know anything new about the ontario triangle? Did Neil P get scared off by someone loading last week's CO in DL10? Ted did you speak to him by phone? also has anyone found the map????!!!!ga (Ted) Ok. Yes I spoke to Neil Yesterday. HE said he. could not be with us tonight but would be back nest week. I asked Neil to prepare a White Paper similar to the one prepared by John Lear. I asked that he be sure to include VERIFIABLE facts such that we may investigate and be prepared to ask more meanful questions.GA (DON) Earlier we were talking about paranoia in the connection with the govet or NSA. it is not a case of paranoia, but everyone should be aware that the govt takes these cases much more seriously than they let on. ga (Randy P) Yes...I reviewed Publications of the U. S. Geological Survey, 1971-1981, and cannot locate any citations which would relate to Neil Palumbo's case. I have not done a full DIALOG search but did establish that an Aerogmagnetic Map of Westernmost New York is contained in the USG (open file) OF 75-0028, and an in depth seismic survey consisting of high-resolution seismic reflection profiles and sediment samples from Western Lake Ontario is contained in OF 80-0550. I cannot find any evidence which would corroborate Neil's claims, however. I will mention that the classic book in this area is Ivan Sanderson's Invisible Residents, which mentions sightings like Neil's in the same area. ga... (Ted) Thanks Randy. That was a nice piece of investigative work. I hope you can return next week when (if) Neil returns. (Randy P) I have an upload which goes into further depth which I will put up later...ga (Ted) Mike did you want to make a comment? GA (MIKE) Not aware of all you're talking about (Ted) Mike - ok, just sit back and listen (read) we're talking about UFOs and related issues. <ga> (Gerry) Ok. I spoke to a friend at Ames who suggested that the area would be better covered by LANDSAT, not SEASAT and that NASA was forced to divest of the distribution of these photos but that if I would tell her the coordinates and times needed, she would tell me which photos to get and how to get them. I sent email to Neil about this but he did not reply.ga (Ted) Neil doesn't get on too often. BTW did you all know that you can see who has been in the ISSUES forum (or any other for that matter) by typing "u" at most "!" prompts? <GA> (Randy P) Thanks...anyone can obtain the satellite images...I have an upload which goes into some depth on how to get these, including the reference numbers for all the LANDSAT catalogs for use in any university library which is a Congressionally designated Government Depository Library. From Neil's description, I believe he has a LANDSAT image (originally ERTS). In order to validate the in water image he believes he is seeing, it would be necessary to look at several loops from the bird...each locale in the U. S. is imaged once every 18 hours in four spectral bands. ga... (Ted) Please upload you're file into the DL10 Database. GA (Gerry) I'm not surprised to hear how available these images are. Actually I was wondering exactly what I had volunteered to do. Decided it was just to open a dialog with an interested person at Ames. And I did get a suggestion as to a non-paranormal explanation. Mind you I'm not by nature a "debunker" in the worst sense of the term. But I was told that zooplancton could be responsible for what Neil saw. They form quite large formations and local currents can make them be repeatable over long periods of time. ga (Randy P) I don't doubt that Neil has seen strange things entering and leaving the lake...as this is well documented and has been going on up there for several years. However, I doubt that he is seeing a structure in the satellite image. Normally, perfectly clear water would appear black in the false colored composite image made from the four spectral images. One needs to view the black-and- white individual shots from each spectral band. ga... (Ted) When I spoke to Neil I asked him if perhaps he was seeing planes disappearing in the horizon at night. He said he didn't believe that was so. Then I ask how BIG were these things (expecting to get points of light) he said "about the size of a quarter at arms length." FOr what its worth that is it. he also claims top be using "color" IR Kodak film. Now I don't know too much about IR film but IR is just another wavelenght as are colors. (Unless there is some Pseudo colorization technique. ANy comments? GA (Randy P) He may be using color film with an IR filter...but the size he describes for the lights he is seeing doesn't agree with some of the sightings over the Great Lakes which Sanderson, et. al. have documented over the years. I am fairly familar with photoimagery, and have never heard of a color IR film. ga (Ted) Neil claims that the film he is using is KODAK IR 35 mm film. (Not color film with an IR filter.) We use IR film in some of the products that are manufactured at my company. (We use an IR laser diode) I have asked our chemist/film people to contact Kodak for more info.... (Ted) By the way, I hope all of you have, or get, the opportunity to read. my message board on "QUESTIONNAIRE" it is suggesting a "brain trust" if you will of ISSUES members. GA (DON) Ivan Sanderson, and the book he wrote "Invisible Residents?" I am not familar with it, could you discuss what the subject covers? ga (Randy P) The book Invisible Residents is by a fairly legitimate scientific type (Ivan Sanderson), so should be available in many libraries. It is probably the classic work on sightings of unusual "vehicles" entering and leaving bodies of water. The book also covers many other types of sightings of "balls of light", dissappearance of crews of ships, and other odd happenings over water. I believe it was the first place where I saw any theories of "vortices", and its chapters 10 and 11 are a classic reference on this subject as well. I recommend it to anyone interested in getting some background on what Neil Palumbo is talking about. I'm going to have to check out in a while, but will do the upload later. thanks....ga... (DON) Ok, and thank you randy. (Ted) Randy, thanks for coming by tonight. we all enjoyed the data and interpretations of same that you have provided see you next week and (I hope) on the message board. Nit Randy! GA (Randy P) nite... (Joe) bye, Randy (Dale) Bye Randy. As a side note, if anyone is looking for books, etc. and I know it is difficult. I have over 1000 books and about 6000 newsletters and magazines. If you have a request for a book or copies of material leave me mail.ga (Ted) Thanks dale that is mighty generous of you. We will all be wanting library cards to the Wedge Foundation. GA (Gerry) I know it's getting late but I did wonder if anyone had read the file on "1st Earth Battalion" which is in the veterans' forum and if anyone has any thoughts about it.ga (Ted) Gerry. Which dl is it in and what is th eactual name of the forum? ga (DON) Vetsig (Gerry) standby and I'll ... right, vetsig ... but standby... it's vetsig/dl7/earth.1st and it refers to a unit of "warrior monks" of the US Army which was trained in psychic warfare and which has just been disbanded.ga (DON) Where is John Lear when we need him? (Ted) We'll) look it up. (MIKE) Speaking of Lear. Has anybody heard of video release to press yet ALA Lear.txt? (Ted) No. Mike do you have reason to believe there is one? GA (MIKE) I thought he mentioned a tape to be released in March?! (Ted) Ok, he mentioned a tape that he had which was just a collection of previously released stuff.) Also he claimed that there would be a "Big Announcement" soon but didn't get specific. GA (Joe) Where can I get a list of BBS's that cover UFO material? GA (Ted) Ok, I can't give you a list but a good bet is to get a list of PARANET BBS. Jim SPeiser (DRAX) is the chief honcho of ParaNet. ANd it is based in Pheonix. Send me EMAIL and I'll give you some info on it. GA (Joe) Thank, will do. ga (Dale) I forgot...oh yees... I think Lear was talking about the Moore release...by the way on WBZ 1030 AM, right now, they are talking about the Whytheville incident. they are trying to get the people on the line. ga (Ted) Let'm call us!!! <DON you're next GA> (DON) Ok, I was going to refer Joe to Jim's Paranet bbs, but you beat me to it however I do have a list here, called the Pagan bbs. ga (Ted) Ok, Don give it to us!!! GA (Ted) WAIT!!! Better yet why don't you send it to me EMAIL and I'll get it into the DL10. GA (DON) Sure, my pleasure!! (Joe) Thanks Don. ga (Ted) Ok.. (Ted) I was going to say earlier that sometime in May there will be new forum software and when that occurs we will have our own Conference room for use during non-Sunday times. Just for us Guys (and Gals). To try out the new software type GO PRACTICE at any "!" prompt. (Dale) Hope your listening to 1030 they are calling. No answer (Ted) 1030 doesn't make it to NJ sorry GA (DON) Idaho either! (Dale) Crip...It's Boston....and I'm in Cleveland. (Ted) Dale, who is calling? GA (Dale) Don't know his name...have to listen but the number is 617-254-5678 (Ted) My phone is busy right now! GA (Dale) Call him later Ted, he'll be on a couple hours. (DON) Well since I can't get that station. I've been wondering for months. DBC in ANN, what does DBC stand for, and where is ANN? grin ga (Ted) DBC stands for Don't Be Curious! GA (DBC) Don, it stands for DB Closet-UFO-enthusiast.ga (DBC) will let you know by Email.ga (DON) Ah, now we know. who Phil's contact is!!!! GRIN (Ted) Folks. It is getting late and I'm am going to have to check out <need to prepare my NSA report to Phil Kl ass> GA (Dale) Ted, call that number 617-254-5678 and go over the sighting will record and send it to you. ga (Ted) Sorry dale I missed that? GA (Dale) I said...call 617-254-56788. I'll tape it and send it to you.ga (Ted) What will I hear? Or will I be on a Boston talk show? GA (Dale) Yes...You'll be on WBZ-radio 1030 AM and be on a Boston talk show. he just mentioned Don Gordon, but the station must not be answering after hours.ga (Ted) Ok I'll give it a try. (but only for a couple of minutes.) Nite all ....