actual thoughts Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 04:16:09 193.158.173.179 writes: 1. I don't believe at END at the end 2. Gonna check (once again) FA CI LI TY 3. Gonna check (once again) PE NG UI N? and ?R IU KA N? The Seeker ************************** combined frequency tally : Version 3 Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 04:21:07 193.158.173.89 writes: combined frequency tally : Version 3 (this should be bug-free) L Q L N K .. A .. R R I L R R F .. B .. K C F F G B I I .. C .. F Y L L L O S E .. D .. W L F S O R T T .. E .. D W V T W U B T B N S D C L .. F .. B T Z Y X Y Z U B T .. G .. U .. H .. S R U L A .. I .. C C L M B X .. K .. A W A V Y O O S Y O D .. L .. U F Z Y D A O D U K D I A .. M .. K U W .. N .. V P A F D L T .. O .. L D L L R Y N .. P .. .. Q .. A A H A A .. R .. V E B U P V U D H .. S .. Y D L F E F .. T .. E E O W G F F H L R M L .. U .. H S F E N R .. V .. Y L S E T E D .. W .. N L F .. X .. K C F Z F L S V .. Y .. L P L F F L .. Z .. Y The Seeker ****************************+ thoughts, part two Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 06:42:09 193.158.164.178 writes: forget to mention : 4. probably it will look like : ...... BEWARE STOP ........ ICE STOP ...... WEASELS STOP ...... (could be 'red penguin frenzy' instead 'weasel'. Why : we know (believe), that the 3 words are not following each other. So they have to be splitted through the message. BUT : with this, you could evenually get some false meaning of the message, so I (if I were an agent) would put the words just before the STOPs. Gonna give this theory a try ! Gotta run The Seeker **************************** more .. Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 09:17:26 62.156.30.138 writes: forgot to mention : either FA CI LI TY or ?F AC IL IT Y* Oh no, gotta run again The Seeker *************************** Re: more .. Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 12:58:17 216.224.156.121 writes: I recieved an interesting mail from Shade last night; many things he said we have already hashed until death do us part...(which does not mean in our tired frustration we haven't overlooked something already done) I leave it to him to post; or give me Okay to post his mail thoughts/work ...but one interesting thing he wrote that has not been written here is the concept of the word stop; this word in his text would surely (if in message; not only end a sentence but BEGIN a sentence as the last word of a preceeding sentence: thus: stopbewareiceweasels(x)stop or stopbewareiceweaselsstop I was flipping thru channels on tv 2 days ago and heard the word CODE I went back immediately...it was the Nova Enigma program! I had missed 20 minutes of it...they never mentioned Playfair in the remainder of this 2 hour show... Some things I learned from the show however was that...they looked for consistancies from certain german operators...they looked for certain phrases used by many as they built profiles on these operator-transmitters; i.e. Hiel Hitler; ect were often used by specific operators ect... It just seems idiotic to me that the words STOP and especially END would be consistanly used in messages...this would always give the enemy 7 letters to work with on a daily code breaking basis; the word End would always give them at least 3 letters...this is why I figured that at least 3 of those XXXX at the end (besides filling a block as explained from others) must signify the word "end" which would never give away those three letters...but would signal the end of message... I am not saying these words are not there in this Contest scenario... but in REAL LIFE I bet they were not... I also saw something similiar to princesses above post; I think I posted something like it down below somewhere...since i am haveing troubel getting my brain to wrap around how to REVERSE build a matrix from the frequency chart as it is...I also thought...they said....easiest to hardest...Princess is probably correct since Nothing 'linear' seems to be working...but...but EASY??? anyway....just some more thoughts; don't let them throw u from your path/s jeff *************************** Re: Re: more .. Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 13:11:09 216.224.156.121 writes: The seeker I was also wondering if we could write up a little social engineering mail to Nova and ask them, even though it officaly ends on 19th, NOT to post the answers on the 19th or 20th as it sounds like they may do...perhaps if they saw an effort by a group was diligently working on this then they would hold off posting answers... jeff ************************** slow train coming Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 13:50:56 193.159.101.199 writes: Yeah Jeff, though I see me climbing slowly in this train you call 'tired frustration' --- IMO the worst thing is, that they post all THREE solutions and we will miss a big chance to learn something new. the seeke ************************** Re: slow train coming Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 14:28:41 194.78.233.94 writes: hi everybody, I have been working all day long (beside 'official' work) on those letter frequencies ... and ... nothing came up :( so you may guess i am really frustated ... Each time you think you got the right thought, it doesn't take very long before you figure out that wasn't the right one :( My last thought, which I'm still wondering how i could try it is that we have lots of 'consecutive frequent digrams'. For example we have (starting from the beginning) AR DL, FB SD EW, LY AR ...and at the end : LA BF FZ. As those 'frequent digram' in our cipher should correspond to frequent digram in the plaintext, I'm trying to figure out how to exploit that. Most frequent digram in english are : EN, RE, ER, NT, TH, ON, IN, TE, AN, OR, ST (yes, ST, like in STOP), ... So those consecutive digram should be meaningfull with put side by side. For example, if YL->TH and OL->ER, we -could- have : TH ER E for YL OL and TH RE E for YL LO. Unfortunately, I still can't figure out a way to try this in a 'logical' way. Something I thought about too, is that we probably have some numbers written in our text (to give a schedule time or whatever else). And numbers have to be written literaly like ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR.... Once again, I don't know how to try this in a logical way. If I resume what I learned about breaking playfair, I think I can say that to break it, we need to know a plain-cipher text pair. not only the text, but also the position. From there we can build (or try to:) a matrix. The only thing i am sure (even if seeker don't seems to agree:) is that END is F BG. And most probably we have ES SE ND as FU UF BG. But that's only 3 rectangle (or lines) without any letter in common with them. That's really too few. We also have those 'weasels' and 'penguin' ... But all we could discover is that they -most probably- don't appear as a long sentence in the plain text. I have also come to the result that there is about 15 000 possible combinaison for the 3 words put apart from each others. So I tried to use the frequencies. But are the probabilities usable on a text of only 170 characters ? I'm not sure of this. Anyway, all i am -almost- sure, thanks to the frequencies is that the 'L' stand on the same line as the 'E'. So, to conclude this (to ?) long post, I won't say I'm begging nova to publish the solution, but I would really like to know what we missed. Btw, I'm scared that when I'll read the solution, I'll hit my head on every wall around yelling 'oh laurent, how could you have been so stupid ! how could you not see that ', LOL ... And I'm convinced my wife will be -very- happy they publish the solution ... She start to get rid of me saying 'STOP' or 'END' everytime she talk to me :) Well, I'm going to lay down with all my papers and my pen and try to figure out something else again ... one day left :) oh, and yes i agree with you seeker, it would be very bad to know all the three solution at once (even if we can't change it). I already learned a lot even without finding the solution to this 1st contest. Sorry for this long, boring post, Regards, Laurent. ***************************** Re: Re: slow train coming Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 14:50:50 216.224.156.121 writes: ...as laurent says...I have a specific door I am looking at that has my head-print in it when this solution comes out... ...also as he says: we do not know the keyword we do not know the configuration of the matrix because of not knowing the keyword does it go left to right? Up to down? across and rebuild it into a second matrix...? are their other forms of tis matrix we have not read about? so as Sherlock Holmes or somebody said; when all else has been done and nothing is right; what is left is the truth... and the truth right now is that all we really have is the FREQENCIES to work with there has to be a way to build the matrix using the FREQUENcies ONLY...since all else seems to fail...this is why I have asked a few times how would i take certain letters and build a matrix from such and such letters...becaue right now its the only 'truth' I see left to us... just some more thoughts...and Seeker; are u going to write to Nova? If Not i am going to...I don't want my head in my door; and if we come up with the solution (we; because we deserve it!) it will be one of the most satisfying cracks I can imagine... jeff **************************** Doors and letters Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 14:58:08 62.156.30.97 writes: Hi Jeff, agree with you in most of your post. - Writing to NOVA ? Hmm, don't know. Do you think we can convince them ? The Seeker ***************************** more than one day ! Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 14:54:09 62.156.30.97 writes: Hi Laurent, good news or bad news, take it as it is : IMO friday, 19th is the last day to send the solution. So the solutions won't get published before saturday. - And I hope, that they don't just publish the correct answer, but even more how to reach this solution. I know it sounds silly, but I won't check the solutions of nr 2 and nr. 3 Hope your wife provides you with some helmet to read the solution :) the seeker ******************************* Re: Sample letter Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 15:12:40 216.224.156.121 writes: To Nova Nazi CodeBreakers Contest Host Present group working frantically to de-cipher the beware ice weasels Cipher#1 at our home office http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb850700 stop We understand that cipher must be broken by November 19th stop We are working night and day world-wide to bust this cipher stop We ask if at all possible that you not post your final solutions until November 23 stop Imperative that these secrets not be revealed so that our future sanity and efforts thus far are not spoiled stop The training of beginner cipher breakers could well be at stake stop Thank you for your consideration and co-operation in this nobel cause end jeff ***************************** Let it roll Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 15:17:52 193.158.173.23 writes: Hi Jeff, brilliant letter ! Why not give it a try. Though I agree with Laurent, that there is a little man inside my head who is rather lucky when the solution is posted (not to mention my family), I think some additional time could be a good chance. regards + respects the seeker **************************** Re: transmission sent stop Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 15:45:59 216.224.156.121 writes: ...letter sent... ...another thing laurent brought up all the posts I saw from examples of WWII did also include a DATE...with numbers I also found a page which provided the ..-- for morse code...in case the sender or reciever screwed up the initial transmission...but I really could not tell by studying the morse code if sender or reciever could have misprinted a letter...just another puzzel ... jeff ****************************** layed down for 2 hours and ... Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 16:34:59 194.78.235.41 writes: Hi, just layed down for 2 hours and ... nothing :( LOL anyway, it's always a pleasure to come here and see that i'm not the only one working on this. Just a few comments about your previous post : - First jeff, you said you enjoyED watching our mind working ... I hope you will keep enjoying them in the future ... And your own brain was not the last one to work :) - About that email you plan to send to nova ... I don't want to play the little devil but here could be their answer : "Don't click on the answer link stop end" But it could be worth to try anyway. Now also, there are a few thing i was just thinking about while reading your previous post. First, the goal of that contest was to catch "adience" for their tv show ... now that it's done ... do you think they will ever publish anything ? Second, still in the same way, do you think a 'smart' guy like our Jim (who should probably be very busy) will spend his time reading whatever people send him and comment it ? If yes, then I may assume he made his contest hard enough to not have to many 'essay' to comment about. Pushing this to the limit ... they can always say : 'due to the fact that no 'correct' solution have been submitted this contest will stay open forever and solution won't be published (this also due to request of some groups working on it ... hehe jeff). Of course our Jim will have made the cipher in a way that there is NO solutions. Well, I'm rambling now ... this is maybe too much 'reversing' :) You're surely right seeker, solution won't be online before saturday at least. And I probably won't read solution 2 and 3 neither ... but who know ? :) As for the helmet, wife just said she got a whole box of them ... want some ? LOL For the letter frequencies. As much as I think about it, as much I get convinced that we can't get anything 'valuable' out of those digram frequencies due to the fact that the 'sample' is really too short (don't know english word for it, but in french we call this 'ecart-type' I think). On the other hand, the monogram (letters) frequencies clearly show that L is the most frequent letter with F, so i assume both of them are on the same line as E. That, with END still keep me to my 'famous' grid : ? U S ? ? B ? ? N ? D E F G L ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? with the first 6 ? beeing H I K A C (in unknow order of course). An option could be L above E which would give a word like 'BLINK' and US could be USA. Well, that's were I am stuck for now. Maybe it should be a good idea for us to put our 'favorite' matrix on here and to compare them ? Back on the couch now for a few more brain twisting :) Respects, Laurent. ************************* Tomorrow never knows Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 16:55:18 193.158.173.183 writes: 1. Shame on me for breaking the law saying 'open new threads please' :) 2. Nevertheless : correct, Jeff - I hope you will stay tuned ! 3. Well, NOVA is probably money-orientated, so they will do what THEY want ! 4. A suggestion : should they really post the THREE solutions at the end of the week, is there any interest - after a short break please ! - to continue with cipher two and (later) cipher three ? (of course WITHOUT reading the 'how-to-essay' they hopefully will post at NOVAs ?) - I think, another teamwork would give us new knowledge ! 5. Yeah, that IS a fine project group. We are not finished, so the famous final words have to stay behind, but to follow Jeff's words : thanks. 6. Helmets : got one already, thanks Laurent :) 7. Laurent, your matrix : gonna think about. Good idea with posting our maybe-things. regards the seeker ************************ Re: layed down for 2 hours and ... Wednesday, 17-Nov-1999 17:06:14 208.128.132.37 writes: I think of this while I lay down also...I think that there may be many couch-cipher-s around with bruises on their heads.:) Sure their TV show... I watch all these type programs...nova; history channels; discovery; science; forensic investigations; especially Universe and space; I love Universe and space; ect...but I disagree that the motive ONLY was for ratings... yes to gather more info on this puzzel I would sit for 2 hours and watch...but there was nothing about Playfair on that show...I don't think the show parrelled the contest because the contest was not Enigma prone... look to ourselves...we like to spread our learning teachings knowledge...I think this Jim is this type...he would probably die for the chance to interact with people on his level of thought; and he would probably THRIVE on finding students who craved his knowledgeable tuteledge,,,I think that he will most diffinately answer to anyone with solutions; and possibly he himself craves the interaction with minds of his own logic and future interactions and friendships....therefore I believe there HAS TO BE solutions...otherwise its just ratings-hype as u say...and I don't think his motivation lies there; his is ...knowledge about history and puzzels, and finding and showing logic on the web; ...I don't think my mail will stop anything from proceeding...but if we don't try...we remain the same as when we woke up...:) the frequencies I meant; was NOt the letters L and f and d I meant taking each pair of frequencys; starting with those of l and f and d; and juggeling them with all the others somehow to produce the working matrix; I need to ask one thing laurent: I se your matrix has indeed bg= nd and here is where i am lost in rebuilding I think: does not FB= en ? if NOT....this is where I am re-building incorrectly if so your matrix does not = this respects fellow couch potatoe thinker jeff ********************************* *************************** lone wolf rule Tuesday, 16-Nov-1999 15:44:17 216.224.153.93 writes: another rule of enigma is no letter can = itself... I don't know if that follows here; but if so...then only one line works...so that no matching letter lines up under one another... bewar eicew easel sxxxx bewar eicew easel sxxxx bewar eicew easel sxxxx xx??? probably NO VYTES YEDLU TERVL FNVUH <<..LL No DWARD LCFFB SDEWN PXKIC bewar eicew easel sxxxx bewar eicew easel sxxxx <<--aa; NO FTREO LKALZ YLSLT OBKEV <<..ss No LYARM KRBOD NALDY PLAET bewar eicew easel sxxxx<<--aa No bewar eicew easel sxxxx <<--ww; No OLQAD FHSFZ WNAID SMURU OLHRY LLOTW FYLDI CVLUS bewar eicew easel sxxxx bewar eicew easel sxxxx <<--BB; No VSSFZ YLUNF FXLKT GBCDO < bewar eicew easel sxxxx TFLAB FFZCY FUUFB GXXXX <<--aa; No if so; maybe also assume that BCDO = STOP jeff ************************ Re: I hate trying to make these things look right..arrrr; try again Tuesday, 16-Nov-1999 15:52:03 216.224.153.93 writes: bewar eicew easel sxxxx bewar eicew easel sxxxx bewar eicew easel sxxxx xx??? probably NO VYTES YEDLU TERVL FNVUH <<..LL No DWARD LCFFB SDEWN PXKIC bewar eicew easel sxxxx bewar eicew easel sxxxx <<--aa; NO FTREO LKALZ YLSLT OBKEV <<..ss No LYARM KRBOD NALDY PLAET bewar eicew easel sxxxx<<--aa No bewar eicew easel sxxxx <<--ww; No OLQAD FHSFZ WNAID SMURU OLHRY LLOTW FYLDI CVLUS bewar eicew easel sxxxx bewar eicew easel sxxxx <<--BB; No VSSFZ YLUNF FXLKT GBCDO<<--NO MATCH BFALE WRPFY WLHUL DARLI bewar eicew easel sxxxx TFLAB FFZCY FUUFB GXXXX <<--aa; No so perhaps this line= bewar eicew easel sxxxx VSSFZ YLUNF FXLKT GBCDO <<--NO MATCH if so; maybe also assume that BCDO = STOP ??? jeff ************************** Re: very frustrating Tuesday, 16-Nov-1999 16:30:32 216.224.153.93 writes: I began wondering today if the four x's at the end don't just fill the five letter block... what if end= BGX...and the last three x's fill the block? doesn't matter...as hard as I have tried I simply can not figure out HOW TO rebuild a matrix...so I can't ever complete any of my ideas FB G en d fb= en . . f . n . . e . b . . n . f . . b . e . . e . b . . f . n . . b . e . . n . f bg=nd . f . n g . e . b d g . n . f d . b . e a e i o u y . e . b d . f . n g d . b . e g . n . f f . n g . e . b d . e . b d . f . n g . ...............b e d . . e n f g . . n g .............................................................. bewar eicew easel sxxxx VSSFZ YLUNF FXLKT GBCDO<<--NO MATCH BG X EN D bg= en . . b . n . . e . g . . n . g . . b . e . . e . g . . b . n . . b . e . . n . g gx=nd . b . n x . e . g d x . n . b d . g . e a e i o u y . e . g d . b . n x d . g . e x . n . b f . n g . e . b d . e . b d . f . n g . a b . n x d . g . e a i o u I post this to show How confused and tired I am...don't know how to reconstruct a box... therefore....Im going for beer and a rest I thought I had something this morning with the Keyword 'england' or english...well Im done for today....this is seriously frustrating: hummm; jeff ************************ look here jeff Tuesday, 16-Nov-1999 16:48:31 195.238.20.78 writes: Hi Jeff, just back from a 2 day trip in foreign country. have a look at here http://www.und.nodak.edu/org/crypto/crypto/army.field.manual/separate.chaps/ ... especially chapter 7. I think there is a good example on how to build matrix. Respects, Laurent. PS : 3 days left :( Laurent *************************** Re: okay I have finally FLIPPed out Tuesday, 16-Nov-1999 22:05:23 216.224.153.93 writes: Thanks laurent...I will go read that; I dl-ed it a little while ago; I just get it.....NOTHING lines up... #1 b ew ar ei ce we as el sx b ew ar ei ce we as el sx b ew ar ei ce we as el sx V YT ES YE DL UT ER VL FN V UH DW AR DL CF FB SD EW b ew ar ei ce we as el sx b ew ar ei ce we as el sx N PX KI CF TR EO LK AL ZY L SL TO BK EV LY AR MK RB b ew ar ei ce we as el sx b ew ar ei ce we as el sx O DN AL DY PL AE TO LQ AD F HS FZ WN AI DS MU RU OL b ew ar ei ce we as el sx b ew ar ei ce we as el sx H RY LL OT WF YL DI CV LU S VS SF ZY LU NF FX LK TG b ew ar ei ce we as el sx b ew ar ei ce we as el sx B CD OB FA LE WR PF YW LH U LD AR LI TF LA BF FZ CY F UU FB GX XX X #2 already hashed this one to death #3 bew are ice wea sel sxx bew are ice wea sel sxx bew are ice wea sel sxx VYT ESY EDL UTE RVL FNV UHD WAR DLC FFB SDE WNP bew are ice wea sel sxx bew are ice wea sel sxx XKI CFT REO LKA LZY LSL TOB KEV LYA RMK RBO DNA bew are ice wea sel sxx bew are ice wea sel sxx LDY PLA ETO LQA DFH SFZ WNA IDS MUR UOL HRY LLO bew are ice wea sel sxx bew are ice wea sel sxx TWF YLD ICV LUS VSS FZY LUN FFX LKT GBC DOB FAL bew are ice wea sel sxx bew are ice wea sel sxx EWR PFY WLH ULD ARL ITF LAB FFZ CYF UUF BGX XXX #4 bewa reic ewea sels bewa reic ewea sels bewa reic ewea sels VYTE SYED LUTE RVLF NVUH DWAR DLCF FBSD bewa reic ewea sels bewa reic ewea sels EWNP XKIC FTRE OLKA LZYL SLTO BKEV LYAR bewa reic ewea sels bewa reic ewea sels MKRB ODNA LDYP LAET OLQA DFHS FZWN AIDS bewa reic ewea sels bewa reic ewea sels MURU OLHR YLLO TWFY LDIC VLUS VSSF ZYLU bewa reic ewea sels bewa reic ewea sels NFFX LKTG BCDO BFAL EWRP FYWL HULD ARLI bewa reic ewea sels TFLA BFFZ CYFU UFBG XXXX bewar eicew easel sxxxx #5 hashed this one to death also beware icewea selsxx #6 beware icewea selsxx beware icewea selsxx VYTESY EDLUTE RVLFNV UHDWAR DLCFFB SDEWNP beware icewea selsxx beware icewea selsxx XKICFT REOLKA LZYLSL TOBKEV LYARMK RBODNA beware icewea selsxx beware icewea selsxx LDYPLA ETOLQA DFHSFZ WNAIDS MURUOL HRYLLO beware icewea selsxx beware icewea selsxx TWFYLD ICVLUS VSSFZY LUNFFX LKTGBC DOBFAL beware icewea selsxx beware icewea selsxx EWRPFY WLHULD ARLITF LABFFZ CYFUUF BGXXXX #8 bewareic eweasels bewareic eweasels bewareic eweasels VYTESYED LUTERVLF NVUHDWAR DLCFFBSD bewareic eweasels bewareic eweasels EWNPXKIC FTREOLKA LZYLSLTO BKEVLYAR bewareic eweasels bewareic eweasels MKRBODNA LDYPLAET OLQADFHS FZWNAIDS bewareic eweasels bewareic eweasels MURUOLHR YLLOTWFY LDICVLUS VSSFZYLU bewareic eweasels bewareic eweasels NFFXLKTG BCDOBFAL EWRPFYWL HULDARLI bewareic eweasels TFLABFFZ CYFUUFBG XXXX #9 it better not be #9 cause I'm done with this tact... #16 bewareiceweasels VYTESYEDLUTERVLF Okay......I have gone and done it...I have completely flipped out... what if hes a spy? babelfish: beware ice weasels= in german pa ss en si eE is we as el sa uf pa ss en si eE is we as el sa uf pa ss en si eE is we as el sa uf VY TE SY ED LU TE RV LF NV UH DW AR DL CF FB SD EW NP XK IC FT RE pa ss en si eE is we as el sa uf pa ss en si eE is we as el sa uf FT RE OL KA LZ YL SL TO BK EV LY AR MK RB OD NA LD YP LA ET OL QA pa ss en si eE is we as el sa uf pa ss en si eE is we as el sa uf DF HS FZ WN AI DS MU RU OL HR YL LO TW FY LD IC VL US VS SF ZY LU pa ss en si eE is we as el sa uf pa ss en si eE is we as el sa uf NF FX LK TG BC DO BF AL EW RP FY WL HU LD AR LI TF LA BF FZ CY FU UFB GXXXX VYTES YEDLU TERVL FNVUH DWARD LCFFB SDEWN PXKIC FTREO LKALZ YLSLT OBKEV LYARM KRBOD NALDY PLAET OLQAD FHSFZ WNAID SMURU OLHRY LLOTW FYLDI CVLUS VSSFZ YLUNF FXLKT GBCDO BFALE WRPFY WLHUL DARLI