Re: Re: My opinion(worth what you payfor)... continued
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 14:15:43
194.78.233.242 writes:
Now, about my idea.
What I actually meant is the in double playfair it's not the 'relative' letter position which count, but well the 'absolute' position of
the letter. Indeed, as we have a know (almost know) right square, the left square cannot 'roll' alone. Both have to 'roll' together ...
but the right one is fixed, so the left one can't roll. (By roll i mean swapping lines or column).
So, once we found a left square which with a given right square (right square is one out of 10 'possible' orientation) return a valid
2 last doublets, we know that the letters involved in the process CAN'T move. As for 1 doublet, there are 4 letters involved in
both square, with 2 found doublets we know the 'absolute' position of a max of 8 letters in our left square (max 8 cause there
can be 'double' letters, ie, the same letters involved twice).
At this time we work on those left and right square to find the 3th doublets. We swap letters from the left square randomly, BUT
only letters that still can be moved.
When we found a left square which give the 3th doublet we start the same to find the 4th doublet, but this time we know max 12
letters which CAN'T be moved.
Is this clearer ? I hope so, cause it's very hard to explain, especially in this tiny box.
If you like, I can try to write something more detailled about this, but you'll have to wait a bit :(
Btw, I would really like to find some information on that shotgun hill climing algo because I feel it should be close to what I (am
trying to) explain.
Respects,
Laurent.
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What I got so far
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 15:08:49
207.230.57.194 writes:
Here's what I've come up with:
size of block remainder even odd
(last block)
1 1 + +
2 2 + +
3 2 + +
4 4 + -
5 5 + +
6 2 - ++
7 1 ++ -
8 4 + -
11 7 + +
15 5 + +
16 4 + -
17 5 + +
23 7 + +
+ = could fit
++ = does fit(ie SS)
- = can not fit
Any other possibilities anyone can weed out?
I hope I understand correctly, but this is starting to kill brain cells, or is it the bourbon and coke?
Right now I'm trying to whittle down the brute part of the problem.
Any input appreciated.
Dan
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Re: What I got so far
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 15:20:48
194.78.233.242 writes:
Hi Dan,
Your list seems perfect to me (I did 2 mistake in my list, thanks:).
what do you mean ?
>Right now I'm trying to whittle down the brute >part of the problem.
you mean brute force ?
Laurent
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Yep
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 15:32:22
207.230.57.194 writes:
I got to do this by hand, and I'm a lazy bastard, so any I can eliminate the easy way I will. Also it's a lot harder for me to make
mistakes if the process is short and sweet.
Dan
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Re: Yep
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 15:53:26
194.78.233.242 writes:
I cannot help you very much dan. All (I think) I know is that once you find a working pair, all the letters involved can't move
anymore (as long as you keep your right square fixed of course).
I'm currently trying to figure out all the position orientation of the right square with BLUEDIAMOND knowing that the keyword
doesn't start in upper left corner and that words aren't backward (but can they be upward or downword ??). and also taking into
account the following trick :
No need to try 'horizontal reflected' square, they are similar.
I'll try to explain :
If you try this square :
B L U E D
I A M O N
? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ?
no need to try this one :
? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ?
I A M O N
B L U E D
you will just find a left square reflected in the same way (at least I think so).
Good luck,
Laurent.
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I was afraid of that
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 16:48:15
207.230.57.195 writes:
Oh, well where'd that tablet go?
Dan
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Could this be a joke ??
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 11:12:46
195.238.20.154 writes:
Sorry to have to ask for this but could this new cipher could be a joke ??
Why I ask ?? Well, cause there are 26 different letters in the cipher ... not 25 :(
Any explanation ?
Regards,
Laurent
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Re: Could this be a joke ??
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 11:22:02
195.238.20.154 writes:
Ok, I do well see some explanations, but I'd like someone else to confirm my thought.... our anonymous cipher-master maybe ?
:)
Laurent
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Re: Re: Could this be a joke ??
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 12:02:09
195.238.20.154 writes:
Hi again,
I think we should just wait and see the answer of our cipher-master. After all he said somewhere 'Be assured, the cipher is not a
joke'.
I know this sound a bit naive in this weird becoming world (maybe I'm still too young to know life), but I like thrusting people at
first sight.
So, let's just wait and see what he will reply. After all, there is an explanation for that 26 letters. I just wonder if cipher-master
know it.
And if it's really a joke, then he is problably trying right now to figure out what this explanation can be (is there REALLY an
explanation ?? hehehe :) to drive us a bit more foolish.
Whatever happen, Yes, Seeker, we learned, and that's the most important thing (with having fun, of course:).
Respects to all who deserve it,
Laurent.
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Re: 26th letter
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 13:21:22
216.224.155.90 writes:
I assume by this u mean the "j"
since its always written as I/J
I just assumed it was either OR simply an "I"
jail jerk jackass
I assume that sooner or later a word with a 'j' in it would or could be a keyword or inside the message and we would simply
convert the I to the proper 'j'...or seeing a j in the message convert it to the I/J placement as the placement is always located at
same spot together...
??????????????????
jeff
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1 poem 2 many 4 me
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 13:27:30
203.57.68.13 writes:
Hi
I am sorry i didn't post this earlier now but bieng new I wanted to
re-check before I made suggestions/allegations then I had to go sleep some.
I only post this now because it was already written and there are a
couple of extras which confirm (as if it is needed).
I have a problem here which I am struggling to explain.
If a letter is in the top row of our cipher text then it must be in
the second square.
It must by the definition of the rules also form either a diagonal of
a rectangle with its partner (the letter below it)
U
Y
. . . . . . . . . .
. . ? . . . . U . .
. . . . . . . . . .
. . Y . . . . ? . .
. . . . . . . . . .
or it must be in the same row as the letter below it.
. . . . . . . . . .
. Y ? . . . . U ? .
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .
This gives a maximum of 10 combinations. 5 for the diagonal and 5 for
the row.
This would mean that the letter U in our example could only be paired
with 10 different characters.
In our cipher text if we take the letter 'W' in the top row only we
see it is paired with the following:
BCDFGKMOTVWXYZ Giving 15 characters.
Now I know I must have fallen from the tracks here but how does this
become possible?
Furthermore if in a matrix I/J occupy the same space we should never
see both of them in the ciphertext especially in the same square
(row). Yet here we do
While this second dilema is not as problematic due to the fact that I
assume it is left to the users discression to choose between I/J I
still cannot answer the first problem.
A couple more things bothering me here. [..]
ShADδ
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Re: question
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 14:03:24
216.224.155.90 writes:
well I can't stop and wait because learning goes on
I have another question:
can a keyword be spelled (used) backwards?
Blue Diamonds:
d e u l b
i
a
or
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
deulb
or the third corner...ect
or must it be forward only
xxxxb
l
u
e
d
jeff
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Guess our cipher-master answered this, Jeff :) (n/t) (Laurent) (07-Dec-1999 14:24:45)
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Head Hung Low
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 15:21:40
203.57.68.13 writes:
I must have spent two hours last night trying to prove to myself that I was wrong about the 'W' only being matched woth 10
letters and I could not do it for love nor money.
As soon as I had posted my last and logged of and I glanced over at my notes I saw the error of my ways.
The 'W' can of course form the diagonal of a rectangle with any character in the first square that is not in the same row. So my
thoery from the last post is utter rubbish I can't believe I couldn't see it. Mayby I should have spent three hours?
I couldn't see the wood for the trees I guess and I hang my head low in shame.
If i could delete my last post I would mayby some body could do this for me? please.
ShADe
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Pick your head up
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 15:29:33
207.230.57.194 writes:
You can see by my posts you are not alone in wishing you could retract a post. If a person is not excited by this kind of
stimulation, they wouldn't be here very long. When I am excited sometimes I type before I reflect. You only fail when you quit
trying!! An error is excusable, as long as no one gets hurt by it. Pick up your pen and get moving, soldier.
Sorry for the rant, hope it helps.
Respectfully
Dan
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Re: maybe
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 15:35:53
216.224.155.90 writes:
our mystery master clues
first i think I now will concentrate at least at FIRST on a period length of 8;
with various Right hand Blue diamonds 5x5's; no left upper corner for B
why?
the avatar above has 8 letters in it
our author says we will see his avatar...would he break it UP...or would he have used 8 as his period length because of his
name length...?
not sure but thats my beginning right now....
hummm i wonder if the left hand keyword 5x5 is his avatar...as i think i know his name now after studying the proxy board I will
try various left hand 5x5's using his name as keyword also with blue diamonds....
just a thought
jeff
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Re: Blue diamond possibles
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 16:02:35
216.224.155.90 writes:
*****************
Spiral: perhaps a flop also
f g h k b d i a m o
c x y p l e r t v n
s w z q u u q z w s
n v t r e l p y x c
o m a i d b k h g f
horizontal is out since clue that Blue Diamonds is not backwards?
But can there be two vertical possibilities then ? actually 4
wait...... it said upper left corner...a horizontal lower left corner would work
horizontal:
XXXXX
X
X
i a m o n
B l u e d
Vertical or
v k s i b d i s k v
w p c a l e a c p w
x q f m u u m f q x
y r g o e l o g r y
z t h n d b n h t z
hummmm; does a matrix even HAVE to start in a corner???
XXXeX
X
b
l
u
possibilities are rather endless if this last is allowed
jeff
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Re: Re: Blue diamond possibles
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 16:09:44
194.78.233.242 writes:
Hi Jeff,
For your first spiral, DIAMOND is written backward ... do you think it is 'allowed' ?
I fear to miss the right square if I suppress it, but it seems to be backward written :(
Laurent
********************
Re: this can 't be
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 16:18:26
216.224.155.90 writes:
this can't be because u could not rightly fill in the X X after the E
XXXeX
X
b
l
u
hiya laurent! Shade dan everyone...
laurent I just do not know about whats considered backwards....I assume try the ones that are not questionable first and leave
that one for last...
are there any other possibilities that I left out?
what do u think of the 8 period theory?
jeff
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8 period theory
Tuesday, 07-Dec-1999 16:31:09
194.78.233.242 writes:
Hi Jeff,
Your idea about the 8 period theory is not worse than any other at the point where I am now, my friend. But I won't jump in it
right now, cause that would close too many door at a time.
That's my actual problem right now, I don't know where to go without closing too many doors at once :(
I'm going to check a bit that other theory you had (his nick beeing the keyword). Who know ?
After that, I think I'm going to let my computer work alone till tomorrow morning and I'll see the results tomorrow morning.
Have a good day :)
Laurent.
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