Okay, this is *not* a forum to tell other people that they're wrong, or stupid, or anything like that, okay? It would be really horrible if people got on here and started insulting each other for no good reason. I just thought that it would be interesting to start a conversation about religions. I'm sort of a "spiritual seeker" myself and am always interested to hear other people's beliefs and ideas. I myself used to be an atheist, but that didn't last for long. Now I'm not sure what I believe. It seems to me that it's human nature to want to believe in a higher power.... why else would ever single culture have a belief system? What does everyone else think?
I'm supposed to be in this religion (which shall remain nameless since i don't want people to get the wrong idea), but now i just feel like religion itself is really really pointless, and hypocrital, and stuff. I mean, there are so many religions out there, and they all think they're right, but in my religions beliefs, *they're* wrong, and in their religions beliefs, *we're* wrong, so who's to say who's right or wrong? What if we're all wrong, and God never meant for us to have organized religions, just to love and worship him and lead proper lifestyles? Where in the bible does it say "you must go to this church every sunday" or "you must do this ceremony every day on easter" etc etc. Most rituals and ceremonies date back thousands of years ago to roman gods and pagan worship and stuff, but here we're all doing it because apparantly, it's part of our religion (i'm talking about christmas and easter here - celebrations that have been so warped over time that they're an excuse to get presents and spend money and wait for santa claus/the easter bunny who have absolutely nothing to do with God or Jesus.)
Shampoo, I like your ideas, especially the one about how God gave us an conscience and therefore the ability to know what's right and wrong. Personally, I identify as Christian (lapsed Lutheran), but I feel that organized religion has gotten out of hand. It has no place in, say, political elections and civil legislation. There are some branches of Christianity (like the Unitarians, Unity, and UCC) that seem more welcoming, and there are some churches in the mainstream branches that are not out of control, but I think they are the exceptions to the rule. Religion is not a bad thing, but those who control the churches need to step back and take a look at what they are doing.
I was raised in the Baptist church. My uncle is a Southern Baptist minister. I love GOD and worship him! I am a Christian, and went to a christian college for my freshman year. But, I admit to seeking. I went to a unity church, which is where my dad goes, for a while, and I liked it, but I wasn't comfortable with the way that they considered Jesus to be "just another person like us" and not the son of god, or holy like he was. They just consider him a pioneer human.Also, instead of saying that God made everything and is in everything, they say he IS the tree, the flower, etc...it just made me a little uncomfortable. So now I'm looking for a church home. I've been strictly Baptist for a long time, but an going to try a non-denominational christian church. I think I'll like it.
I'm Christian, and I think pretty strongly so. I do go to church every Sunday, I am a leader in my youth group, it is a community where I feel comfortable and where I belong. I believe that Jesus was more than "just another person" and that He is...IMPORTANT. To me and my life...and my after life. I agree that some ceremonies and organizations are out of control, but that kinda can come from the power. Like in the middle ages.
I believe unlike some that the divisions of the church today are great! The diversity allows peoples needs to be met, some people need more repetition whereas some need charisma! Have any of you ever looked into Islam? Islam is very woman empowering! Don't listen to the media propaganda! I am a christan...i definitely am, but i refuse to say that i am of the correct religion...i feel that God did not show himself to everyone in the same way...which may be a good explanation as to the different religions! I would become a muslim if it weren't for my belief in Jesus...but who knows...i may find a way...
Just a quick question. Any Wiccan's out there?
a *what*?
I used to have really strong beliefs in God and Jesus and Christianity basically, but last year a lot of people suddenly started telling me that I was wrong and that there was no God, that the Bible was corrupt and all sorts of stuff and I totally lost the plot. I didn't know what to believe anymore and even now I sometimes think that maybe everything is wrong but then I just stop and think that no one could have written the Bible on their own, just for the crack and so all the things in the Bible did happen and I like believing this. I like the way that I can believe in something that still lets me be kind of *free* and not pressured or anything by a cult or whatever. The truth is I get down sometimes and I just think that Jesus managed to get through all the things he had thrown at him and in the end sacrificed himself for us. I think that is truly amazing and I like knowing that all the time He is watching me. It used to be hard sometimes because none of my close friends were religious in anyway but now I have found people I can talk to and more people are religious that I thought were. Once a friend of mine even said she felt *left out* because we were talking about God and the Bible and she didn't know what we were talking about. Oh well. I am a lot more confident in what I believe now.
Lya, I have been looking into Wicca for a short while now... I don't want to commit to anything without knowing all I can about it, but it looks really, really great so far. What are your thoughts? I'd love to know a lot more about it.
Fiona..
For the past year i have been looking a little into wicca and so far i have been impressed with what i found... i love the idea of earth religions and enjoy that fact that wicca has no strict rules to follow, (except of course the "golden rule" or whatever you want to call it)
I've been a bit interested in Wicca...but then I find it hard to believe that too (I don't really know enough though). I've gotten sick of & lost faith in Christianity (eps catholicism), and have been looking for *something*, albeit not too hard. What I see for wicca is that I can put face on the forces of nature...I believe that the physical laws & nature are our ruling forces...they really have control over us. We all die; nature wins. Its not something to fear though. Wicca makes it easier than the patriarchal god to fit my nature views...but does it really? Is this a good way to fit it in? anyone know? Write me, ok?
I've been using Wicca as a spiritual practise for about six years now, but I've been a spiritual journey-woman since 10 years old. I believe _religion_ simply provides a container, a form, a practise, in which to explore and deepen a person's _spirituality_, the part of theirselves that connects to the deeper/higher power of Deity. The form helps the spirit, but the spirit is not the form. I started out practising charismatic Christianity, then developed a mystic, esoteric Christian practise, then moved into Wicca. There are some who believe you can't be a Christian and a Witch, but I honor the Christ-spirit (his message was love, not hate and intolerance), and I also honor the Spirit as God/dess that I feel within everything... the wind, the trees, the water, animals, each of us humans.
One thing people have to watch for with religious stuff is that NOT everything is going to be explained. That's why it is faith. It is hard to grasp the ideas of heaven and God because it is almost beyond our rational side. Resurrection is another irrational part. That's why Jesus is so neat. Because He was here. He felt things and I think His existance helps us to understand God's. I think religions are fascinating, and I'm glad for the role of mine in my life.
Deborah, you are a huge help. I've been kinda iffy about my religion for a while, and don't know what to do about it, cuz my mom always said "you can never run away from your upbringing". so whenever i do something i'm not supposed to do i feel kinda guilty because what if my religion *is* true and god is looking down on me right now? i can never be comfortable like this!
Hi Shampoo...
I used to go to church but I don't anymore. For awhile I had no spiritual side. Now I believe in God but I don't pray for him to change the world, I just pray for him to help people deal with the world. I wear a WWJD bracelet every day to remind to be nice and help people if I can. But I think some people would be offended by what I believe. See, I'm not sure Jesus was the son of God really. I mean maybe he was just human and not created by a divine being. I think though that he represented what religion should be about, giving love and hope to everyone.
I looked into Wicca, I have a lot of Wiccan friends, and I really think it looks interesting, but has anybody read about Gnostic Christianity and Spiritualism? I really believe that everyone is entitled to their own religious beliefs and no one is "going to hell" because they believe a certain thing. I think it all comes down to one thing:
Okay, I've got a huge problem. Like I said before, I'm supposed to be belonging to this religion (which again is going to remain nameless). But lately I'm having second thoughts, probably a mixture of how unbelieveable the whole thing sounds, and how pathetic the whole thing is, and how I want to do stuff other teenagers do... oh, and I'm lazy and I don't want to do everything they ask of me. Anywayz, point is that I don't want to do it anymore, I'm sick of it, I'm sick of the hypocrisy, and if I hear one more *knowlegable religious person* tell me what is right, what to believe, and what I should be doing to increase my faith blah blah blah, I'm going to scream.
And the plot thickens! I just realized that if I leave the religion, I'd be losing some of my best friends and family members. My best friend of 8 years I wont be able to talk to anymore! Anyone I've ever really known (like parents friends) are in this religion. If I leave, I'll be ALONE!!
Hey Shampoo! I know you don't want to name you're religion but you sound like a Jehova's Witness. Not naming your religion is hard because I'm a Christion and I can't very well tell you to stay in your religion if I don't believe in the one your in. About your dad though, you're a lucky girl to have a father that cares so much but he has no right to use material possesion to lay guilt trips on you. I don't care if he buys you a house. And if you let yourself feel pressured to succeed because of your brother and sister you will grow to resent your whole family and you'll never be happy. Maybe leaving your religion is a way for you to break free from you parents expectations and kind-of rebel. If that's the case, think it over very hard because it may feel like it's what you want to do but really it isn't. I'd sit down with your dad and say: "When you lay guilt trips on me and make me feel that I have to do things your way, you push me away from the things you want me to be close to i.e. our religion. Let me discover for myself and don't make me feel that I'm doing it for you." I won't comment any further on staying in your religion because again I don't know if it is one that I belive in.
Again, I'm not naming religions. Because there are times when I do believe in it, and I don't want the name to get out, cuz I definately respect it, it's what's kept me from going bad for 16 years. So I'm not naming the name!
Shampoo,
Shampoo,
That's exactly how I am. I'm way too scientific to believe in all that stuff, I just can't see it happening.
Shampoo,
Shampoo,
Hm, Shampoo
I know.... but my life is so *boring*!!! Cuz it's not just sex and drugs and stuff that he thinks is wrong, it's *guys* period. No guy friends, no talking to guys, no flirting with guys, no wearing short skirts or anything (the guys might see! *gasp*!). Of course I'll be careful with what I do, I'm not going to be stupid and get addicted to heroin or screw every guy on my block, I just want the choice, so it's like *I* am saying no and not *my parents*, you know what I mean? I want a say in what I do.
Well, Shampoo
Oh, and Shampoo...
God is too big to fit into one religion.
Zooey: I agree with what you said about the Bible being misinterpreted to condemn homosexuality. I think that is stupid. Wasn't Jesus supposed to love everyone?
Laurel,
this is a portion from the book the prophet by kahlil gibran READ THE BOOK!(its about everything in life) its beatiful. im not worrying about capitilization so here i go-
Jane,
"Do not be mislead. Nither fornicators, nor idolators, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men... will inherit Gods kingdom"
"Do not be mislead. Neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men... will inherit Gods kingdom"
The passages used to condemn homosexuals, pagans, and even to maintain women in low status, have been found to be different from the original text. Anyone who has studied the passages in Greek knows that different meanings can be given to sentences. Some of the translations I have come upon are so inaccurate, I wonder how it got printed in the first place. Add that to some forgeries and what do you get...
JaNae,
I have gone to far ends to find out the "argument and logic" behind prejudice. Can you say the same?
Any Satanists out there? No offence to you guys but I think God is a hypocrite who makes innocent people suffer. I have felt this way scince I was 11 and I felt this was the place to get my God SUCKS angst out.
Keridwyn,
Keridwyn,
Marsha,
The Bible says homosexuality is wrong, okay. The Old Testament says that. Christ himself did not say anything about this. And the Old Testament says not to eat pork either. I'm sure lots of people who are against homosexuality because of the Bible still do that!
Anonymous-
Okay, I've noticed a lot of people here looking for information on Wicca, so here you all go... I think that you will like some of these links...
Marsha,
For those who do believe in God, but think him a hypocrite (Marsha) try this... Humans are hypocrites! All of the Religious institutions, and religious books were made by humans!
I don't know if you believe in god, but if you do try this. All those books and stuff are supposedly taken from profets writings. Those prophets are supposed to be perfect and superhuman and telling the world what god wanted. So if what results is hypocritical you can come to a few conclusions. 1 god dosn't exist, 2 god is a hypocrite. I know humans are hypocritical, it is one of our worst traits. God is supposed to be better. From what I have seen he is not.
Marsha hi again :), for the record I would like to raise my hand high for the belief that GOD does exist...as I'm sure you could tell from my poetry you read. I base this on the simple fact that (True) "Love" does exist, and as Bible describes, "GOD is Love!!" [1 John 4:15-16: Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.] As like most people, its hard to understand everything GOD is doing, or to fully see the "BIG PICTURE" of how all the smaller piceces fit. That's where Faith comes in at. Also the Bible decribes why we mortals cann't understand everything, the way GOD does: Isaiah 55:9-10 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the Earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Marsha I'm still not sure why you think the people in general are hypocritical?!? Could you Plz explain...cause I haven't found that to be true (except with my Parents mainly). The world that you seem to see around you, is so Dark & depressing. I'll pray that things change for the better. *HugZ*
Hey sweetie-
Marsha :), you're so Cute!! hehe!! Thanks for your kind reply. I think the main reason why so many people look like they are Hypocritical, is because they trap themselves into promises they can't possibly delivery, or they simply fail to delivery on Time. But there are people out there who are just plain Evil!!!...going out of their way to deceive others (for their own good). Course, one soon discovers from Family 'n' Friends which is "Honest, Unrealistic / Forgetful, or just Evil (Hypocritical)" Tis my thoughts on the subject...I hope it helps some.
Blue eyes-
Marsh, WOW!! Happiness is one of those Key ideas that every person has their own opinion about…but I’d be “Happy” (hehe!!) to share my thoughts with you! Beyond the obvious basic thingys that make us happy: Food, Water, Sleep, & Shelter (Hey, live without these and see how un-happy you become. ;;) )…we all instinctually have a Great Desire to be Accepted by others and an inner Deep Thirst for Accomplishment by Challenging our Abilities (course we must set Realistic Goals), both of which builds upon our feeling of Self-Worth. There are so many thingys that can influence our sense of “Happiness”, but nothing more so than our RelationShips with Family ‘n’ Friends! First off, you must make yourself “Happy,” (don’t wait for someone to make you happy) find some little thingy that makes you smile and then share with someone else. By making others happy…you in turn become a happier person. I, like yourself fall into depressing states all the time, and sometimes its so very hard to pull yourself out of the Dark Pit…tis these times when you must reach out beyond yourself and grab hold of somethingy that returns a smile upon your face. (I hope that last sentence makes sense…I’m not sure how else to say it) As a Father of a 19 year old Daughter and a 11 year old Son, I’m obviously no longer a “Teen”…but believe me, it seems like only yesterday! Its gotta to be the toughest time in a person’s Life. Plz, don’t feel alone, others like myself, and many, many others have stood where you currently stand now…thingys will get better, but only in time. Hang in there. :)) Also I believe “Love” is more Powerful than “Hate”…where as Love builds up, Hate tears down…have you ever notices how we all seek to be “Loved”, who in their right mind would want to be “Hated?” (LOVE) Tis a Treasure worth more than Pure Gold!! Value those who Love others ‘n’ you will find the meaning behind “Happiness!!”
Blue eyes-
Marsha, :)) I forget exactly where on the Web I was at the time I found a link to this forum, but out of pure curiosity I followed it here. Course once I arrived, I began to browse around a little, and soon discovered very quickly what a wonderful place to share Thoughts and Ideas with others! Plus Gals seem to be a lot more open to talk about thingys than Guys. Don’t you think? Tis at this point became "Hooked!" as you put it. hehe!! Here's a poem I wrote nearly a half-year ago that describes it better:
Ah well-
Blue Eyes, you are SO COOL!! Find a guy like you within the 16-20 age group and I'll be happy. I know not all guys are jerks, but it seems like the only ones I meet are jerks, so... well, i'll find a good guy one of these days, right?
Shampoo, Thanks! *blushs a little*..."ya know it takes a Kool person, to know a Kool person!!" (hehe!!) And about knowing any Guys like myself in the 16-20 age range, Sorr-we but I've never found another Guy quite like me at any age so far. Guess I'm a Lone-Wolf. Course, I'm sure there are Tons Sweet Guys out there...maybe they just need more time to grow up a little. Being a "Teen" is not the easiest thingy to work thur. My guess is that you will find that Special Someone one of these days in the Future...and it'll probably happen when you decide to stop looking so hard. :)) Till that develops, why not enjoy the wait doing thingys with a few good Gal Friends!! *HugZ*
Because I'm always doing stuff with girl friends, and I want to do stuff with a guy more-than-friend! But the ones I meet who are interested turn out to be huge jerks! And it's not like they were jerks when I met them, because I'm looking for nice guys, but when I find a nice guy he turns out to be a jerk! I have *such* bad luck with guys!! Cuz I'm too dumb to fall for the jerks but too smart to stay with a jerk, so I'm stuck!
Shampoo-
Don't look at me either shampoo, if I knew what it was that attracted girls to jerks I might do the same thing, because it seems like unless you're a jerk no girl is interested.
How do all you Christians out there who believe in the Christian god as the only god reconcile the fact that there are literally hundreds of religions throughout the world?
Calm down, Kate. Religion is not as simple as a few lines of discussion in a message board. There is more meaning to sacred texts than you can spell out with a few sentences. But don't be angry, so often those texts are misread by the very ones quoting them.
you know what really irritates me? when people out there think every injustice in the world is an injustice to women.
Kate-
Kate,
Evolution just cannot be true. There is practically no evidence for it., but so much against it. As womanist said, we are just too complicated to have just evolved.
if that is so, then why did the pope acknowledge it?
Christians don't argue that evolution doesn't exist, it does. But I believe God got the ball rolling...
ranma: the pope acknowleged it because he wants more people to accept catholism and he wants to appeal to the people with a more scientific mind. i'm not a big fan of the pope (sorry!) and i think that all he cares about is getting supporters, not telling the truth. in my oppinion, he sold out his beliefs to make people happy and get into the modern times, dragging catholicism along with it.
Womanist-
It never said in the bible that people would fly or perform heart operations or that gravity exisits (oh sorry, you may not believe in that either). The bible didnt say a lot of things and as such cannot be taken as literal meaning. Please, look at what you are saying. Basically if the bible is the only book that is right in the whole world then 80% of the worlds populations are damned and will go to hell. Do you really believe this is true?
Kate-
I want to know why you dont believe in evolution.
the reason i don't believe in evolution is because it doesn't make any sense. where did the earth come from? how did it get here? cells and atoms and stuff kept dividing. well where did *they* come from? chemical reaction? where did the chemicals come from? (i know nothing about science this is just an example). evolution is okay for explaining how we changed and what we used to be, but it can't explain anything on how things started in the first place. what got the ball rolling?
Care,
I kinda' like the approach I've come across in Judaism (reform, that is). God is. There are a lot of paths and ways to God. Just because Reform Judaism might be the for some Jews does not mean that it is the way for everyone. Try as we might, we (people on earth) will never fully comprehend God. The best we can do is to think about the good things in life, read the Torah and puzzle it out. How do we relate what was written long ago with the world today? God's wisdom is in there, as it is in other holy works, writtings, knowledge passed on, and it's up to us to figure it out. It's also up to us to do our best at making this a better world.
Womanist-
Care: You don't "feel" like explaining why you don't support evolution? Or are you afraid that your argument won't stand up? You should really support your beliefs with facts when asked, not just say "No, you're wrong, the Bible is right." You'd get a lot more respect. And what *do* you have to say to the argument that human skulls are getting bigger? Did God put things like that and dinosaur bones there to fool us, or what?
Marsha,
oooh.... wominist the way you put things is so right!! i mean, i do believe that it's natural for things to change over time depending on weather and stuff, of course that happens. the world is constantly changing and we are all changing on it to continue to live. but there is no way you can say that this entire world, and all of us was creatd just by chance, by some small event. and no one bothered to respond to my "where did the earth come from?" somebody answer *that*!!
Shampoo,
okay gilmoure: then where did the light/energy come from? where did the ball of dense matter that started the big bang come from? you can't get something out of nothing.
That's the point the physicist guy was making. Beyond a certain point, it is impossible for us to know how, or why this event happened. The only thing we can say is that "There was light." Where have we heard that before? Hmmmm. With stuff like this, there comes a point where we cannot 'know' and have to 'accept' that things just happened. What spin or interpritation you put on these events is belief which can become religeon if a bunch of people start writing what they thought you meant by it all, after you died.
Okay, everyone, I have a question. (Haven't been able to post lately 'cause Nrrdgrrl won't let webtv post :P )
Hey Shannon,
Shannon, Gilmoure
Shannon,
womanist-
Wominist-
Shannon,
a brief history of time is college level? i started reading it but never made it through. no time, lack of patience, sick of having to read things over and over to comprehend them. but anywayz, the whole "god is eternal" thing bugs me, too, because if god was always around, then the earth is very, very young compared to him, so what was he doing during all that time without a universe and angels and stuff to create? it makes me think that if god is eternal, then the earth should be eternal, too, because otherwise there would be an eternal time before god created the earth, which doesn't make any sense, it's all just very confusing, i can't understand the whole "no beginning" thing. i can understand something having a beginning and no end, but not no beginning. unless of course time works like a circle, because circles have no beginnings and no ends, but that's an idea that is way over my head.
Hey Shampoo!
Hey Shampoo!
Hey Shampoo!
Hey Shampoo!
I hate my web browser! Arrrgggh! Sorry about all that.
By Shampoo on Tuesday, April 21, 1998 - 04:19 pm:
I've been thinking about my own religions beliefs, and the beliefs of other religions, and in my mind (which is pretty young), i just think that they all sound so far fetched and improbable. Plus, there are so many interpretations of the bible, each one saying totally different things then the other, who are we to believe? You can't say your bible is 100% accurate, because in translation, a lot of things can be missed or added to clear things up - probably in the way you want others to believe.
Anywayz, my conclusion is that it's great to be religious and have faith, but God gave us a conscience (sp?) and we all know what's right or wrong, we don't need a priest to tell it to us.
I do believe in creation, because it makes sense - everything had to come from somewhere, and I do believe in God. Why can't we all love and worship and respect him in our own way, and not how an organized religion tells us to?
By Butch on Tuesday, April 21, 1998 - 08:19 pm:
By Melaniel on Tuesday, April 21, 1998 - 10:08 pm:
By Rain-sky-blue on Wednesday, April 22, 1998 - 04:01 pm:
I also think that I do not need to confess anything to people. God listens to me, and I'm glad I need Him, and that I realize the importance of my beliefs in my life
By Titania on Monday, April 27, 1998 - 05:52 pm:
Some of you may believe that the scarf (hijab) of Islam is horrible for women...maybe even that it is a sign of oppression...but indeed it is not...
women wear it so that they will not be known or gawked at for there bodies, rather they will be know for there piousness and intelligence!
Ahh...i could go on and on...but i will stop for now!
By Lya on Wednesday, May 6, 1998 - 05:57 pm:
~Lya
lyarith@hotmail.com
By Shampoo on Wednesday, May 6, 1998 - 06:42 pm:
By Fiona on Thursday, May 7, 1998 - 01:34 pm:
Bye
By Shannon on Thursday, May 7, 1998 - 01:41 pm:
Terribly excited to meet a Wiccan,
Shannon
By Eliste on Thursday, May 7, 1998 - 04:30 pm:
I went through something similar like that only it was all in my head, the doubts and other thoughts that is... I ran from the traditional christian church I'd been in to the Unitarian church where, as my friends liked to say, you could believe whatever you wanted to believe. However, I found that to be not really the case either. I finally gave up on organised religion and am finding out what I believe on my own. Its been 7 years since I first left that old church and I've gone through many changes since then even in my beliefs. Basically I'm all for organized religion if it satisfies your spiritual needs. I just dont happen to have found one that does for me...
(smile)
good luck to you all on your journeys
Eliste
By Keely on Thursday, May 7, 1998 - 09:40 pm:
:)
Keely
By Unt_ on Friday, May 8, 1998 - 12:09 am:
By Deborah (Crazemink) on Friday, May 8, 1998 - 07:48 pm:
Ultimately, my belief, no matter what outward expression I give it... Christian, Bhuddist or Wiccan... comes down to this: I believe in direct, divine revelation, and no human can tell me what my relationship to God/dess is or should be. I will respectfully listen to the wisdom of my elders, but it's my relationship with Deity that must ultimately guide me. Or anyone else, for that matter. My advice to someone who is re-examining their religion, or looking at exploring a new one is this: Look to your heart, ask Deity to reveal Her/Him/Itself and guide you, and be quiet for just a few minutes... see where it takes you. My two-cents...
By Anonymous on Wednesday, May 13, 1998 - 06:50 pm:
By Shampoo on Wednesday, May 13, 1998 - 07:53 pm:
btw, what's a wicca?
-shampoo
By Deborah (Crazemink) on Thursday, May 14, 1998 - 04:37 pm:
What is Wicca? Check out http://www.mindspring.com/~selenem/beliefs.html . This will give you a good overview on what Wicca is all about, plus answer alot of frequently asked questions (much better than I could!). The question of whether or not yours is a "true" religion... well, I think almost all of them are true, to a certain extent. And I also think all are "tainted", so to speak, because it's so hard to express spiritual truths within our limited language that the message oftentimes gets muddled. Our culture and existing social structures can really color (for good or ill) any divine message! In my experience, connecting to what I understand as Diety on a one-to-one basis (through prayer and meditation) and specifically asking for answers, can bring forth clarity. But it can be a challenge to move from having religion given to you, to working towards experiencing God for yourself. Good luck!
By Anonymous on Thursday, May 14, 1998 - 09:32 pm:
By Lya on Tuesday, June 9, 1998 - 10:43 pm:
FAITH!
If you have faith in your religion, then you are right. There is no such thing as "the one right way". :) Or at least, that is my opinion.
~Lya
By Shampoo on Saturday, June 20, 1998 - 02:22 am:
Okay, so in short, I want out. But there's more.
My parents have always been so good to me, they're the greatest parents a girl could ever have, I've been travelling everywhere, they always give me money for stuff, they're contstantly sacrificing themselves for me and my brother and sister. There's nothing I want that they wouldn't give me (material wise), and they've given me the best of everything. I have a *car*. My dad is paying for my university tuition, and he's always saying stuff like "no man is good enough for my girls" and that i'm "his pride and joy" blah blah blah. My parents are *so* great, and *so* wonderful, and everything I do I always want to please them and show them that everything they've sacrificed wasn't in vain... my brother is autistic and my sister is learning disabled so that about leaves me as the one who's gotta be *big* and do something really *important* with my life, for my parents.
You've probably already guessed that leaving my religion is going to make my dad very very sad. And whenever my dad is disappointed in me for something, it really really *hurts* a lot. Once we got in this huge fight and I said some things I shouldn't have said, and I heard from my mom that my dad was practically crying, and I felt *so* bad. And especially since he's gives me so much and has sacrificed so much to make sure my life turns out better then his (you know parents), I don't want to leave my religion cuz it'll make him so sad. I want my dad to be *proud* of me, cuz you know... I want him to be *so proud* of me, that everything he did paid off.
If I leave my religion, I don't know what he'd do. He gets mad when I say one swear word, what's he gonna do about this? He'll kick me out of the house, that's what he'd do. He's great, but he always leaves these huge guilt trips on me all the time. Like for example, when he can tell that I'm not doing that well in my religion, he'll say everything I told you. "I work so hard and do so much, why can't you do this one thing to make me happy blah blah blah". It makes me feel *so* bad! What am I going to do, you guys? Like seriously? I can't stand this religion, but it looks like to keep favour with my dad I'm going to have to fake it. That's one idea that just makes me feel so aweful, cuz I can't stand this anymore! I want *out*! But if I leave, I'll also be ruining my relationship with my dad... forever. And that'll wreck my relationship with my family. So it's either "be true to myself and do what I think is right" which would mean losing my dad, or living a lie for the rest of my life just to make him happy.
Thing with my dad is that minor crimes are *huge* in his eyes, and if he found out some things that I've done, he'd kill me. I'm not going to say any of them, just in case anyone is listening in (i can't trust anyone. i'll talk about that some other time). So for now I'm just leading this double life and am completely paranoid that someone is going to find out. And I wanna go further in the things that I do, but I'm also afraid of people finding out and telling my dad. Like I said, I can't trust nobody.
So what do I do? I'm 16, so I still have a few years to make a decision, but I can't handle it... also what I'm worried about is my dad's reaction if I *do* leave. It's all a huge mess and either way, I'm stuck! Plus, I might not like my religion, but I'm not sure if it is actually *wrong*. I don't know if it's right or wrong. One day I'll be like "this is totally not true" and then I'll hear something that makes sense, and I'll be all "well this does sound right..."
What am I going to DO?? Anyone?
-shampoo
By Shampoo on Sunday, June 21, 1998 - 01:32 am:
-shampoo
By Anonymous on Sunday, June 21, 1998 - 09:23 pm:
By Shampoo on Monday, June 22, 1998 - 04:49 am:
Ya know, I kind of tried what you said, but it never seemed to work. Usually we end up fighting and stuff. He loves me, I know he does, and he wants the best for me, but I want a chance to find out for myself! I'm sick of things being done for me, people telling me what is right and why. Both my parents got to make the choice, I didn't.
On the other hand, if I did leave, I know what I would get into, and it's not the kind of stuff I should be doing. I can't help but wonder if the reason I'm second guessing the whole thing is because of stuff I wanna do (that could get me in a lot of trouble), is condemned in my religion. If I leave, I'd get into stuff like drugs and sex and everything, which I know isn't right, but I want to do it anywayz, and I don't want the guilt. Those aren't the right reasons.
I just don't know anymore.
(not naming anything! so please don't guess)
By Anonymous on Tuesday, June 23, 1998 - 05:43 pm:
Do you really believe that you can just *leave* your religion? Can you wake up one day and just decide it's not going to be a part of you anymore. I don't think you can. Why do you have to get into sex and drugs just because you "give up" your religion. Is that the only thing holding you back?! I mean there are a lot of un-religious people who aren't into sex and drugs. Maybe you should re-examine your basic moral values before anything else! You might find that "dangerous living" i.e. sex and drugs is less fulfilling than you think. I don't believe you have to go out and experience *everything* just to know what's right and what's wrong. You get tired of being a bad ass just like you get tired of being a good girl. Find the person in you that goes beyond all that.
By Olivia on Tuesday, June 23, 1998 - 07:41 pm:
Hi! I have been studying different types of religions for my own purposes. My main problem is that I'm very logical and for me, it is hard to believe SO MANY thing on faith and ignore what has been evidenced by logic and science. I think it is important for everyone to know themselves and fully believe in what they are doing. If this is religion for you, that's cool...Right now it seems like you should explore a lot of options, different religions and scientific and anthropologic findings. I think if you sit down with your dad and tell him you want to explore because your spirituality is important to you and you want to fully understand the options. Tell him you are not rejecting your present religion, just enhancing your knowledge. I'm sure he went through the same thing once. I know how you feel about disappointing your dad--I'm a daddy's girl myself!
One last thing, and here comes my independent logical side...I think you should really question something that places so much pressure on you to conform. You seem to be all about grrl power, but you should be about shampoo power too. If this religion is so narrow that they would prefer you be an "unfaithful" believer than question or leave the church, it probably isn't worth it. Ideally, you could explore the options and come back to your church refreshed in faith, but if it doesn't happen, that's okay too. Always question--that's how you learn. And always question those who don't want you to question. Good luck!
By Shampoo on Friday, June 26, 1998 - 12:57 am:
Anon: that's exactly it. "you can never run away from your upbringing". No matter what I do or where I go from here I'll always feel guilty cuz I'm going against the moral values I was brought up in, but that I lost a while ago. Prolly the people I hang around with, but I am so much happier now then I was before. I never got to try stuff and see for myself what it's like, and that's what I want to do! I know it's wrong, but that's why I want to do it.
Thing is, if my dad had so much faith in the religion in the first place, why wouldn't he let me check the other ones out but have faith in that I'd see this is the true one and stick with it? Hmm...
Olivia: I tried that sit down with my dad thing. It didn't work. We ended up fighting and he flipped out on me. I wouldn't care if he was like a bad dad or anything, but he's a good dad, and doesn't deserve that.
By Olivia on Friday, June 26, 1998 - 06:01 pm:
I can understand how sitting down sometimes doesn't work, but it's a shame not to try...good for you for the attempt! Even though your dad is a good dad (which I don't doubt), I am unsure of what it is you think he doesn't deserve. The stress of a daughter like yourself who is strong and intelligent enough to know that she needs to question in order to grow? This isn't sarcasm, but hopefully someday your dad will be proud of the person he taught you to be. Don't change a thing!!
By Anonymous on Sunday, June 28, 1998 - 04:12 pm:
I can't condone rebellion for rebellion's sake. If you need to explore your faith that's cool but if you wan't to leave just so you can be a bad ass without feeling guilty I think you need to grow up. When you say stuff like 'I know it's wrong but that's why I want to do it!' What do you expect people to say? "That's great Shampoo! Go out and have lots of sex, hey make it unprotected if you really want to be a bad ass, then get hammered and stoned out of your tree! Ya you go grrl!" I don't think that's good advice. When you get over what ever it is your going through, ask yourself who's going to be there for you: Your 'friends' or your family and the people who care about your health (spiritual, mental and physical).
By Keridwyn on Monday, June 29, 1998 - 12:46 am:
That's interesting.. the desire for the type of quest you'd like to pursue - to live on the dangerous side of life a bit. Well, sounds like you need a good dose of reality injected in your veins.
Listen carefully, girl. If you know that what you would like is wrong, yet would like to "experience" it for yourself, then I honestly don't think you fully realize what "wrong" means in this context. You have problems. Talk to adults who may be able to help. You want to see for yourself what it's like? Visit some hospitals with terminal AIDS patients. Ask a gynocologist to show you some pictures of Herpes, Gonorrhea, Syphilis, Chlamydia cases. Talk to recovering drug-addicts about the beauty and reality of drugs. Check out the lung-cancer patients who are hospitalized as a result of smoking, or mouth-cancer patients who wanted to have a try at tobacco chewing. Look up in health encyclopedias (and other sources) the irreversible effects of drugs on the brain, the effects of STD's on your genitals, or the effects of smoking in your respiratory system.
Maybe you know some of those things, but if you still have an impulse to try them, you'd better ask yourself if you really know what you're asking for. I seriously question if you understand the consequences of your desires.
I am really not kidding or trying to offend you. But it truly seems that you need some good advice and perhaps some insight from people who have been where you would like to go.
Keri
By Shampoo on Monday, June 29, 1998 - 02:49 pm:
And I never said "I want out of my religion so I can be a bad-ass", I said that maybe staying would be best because it's keeping me away from all that stuff.
By Keridwyn on Monday, June 29, 1998 - 07:29 pm:
Try talking to a responsible adult other than your parents, someone whom you can trust.
I understand your need to feel independent... happens to most teenagers. However, part of being independent is being mature, and being mature means making conscious choices.
I am pretty serious when I suggest you talk to a doctor about some of the above things. It might have a deep effect on you, and hopefully give you some insight.
Keri
By Keridwyn on Monday, June 29, 1998 - 07:40 pm:
Sometimes all it takes to have your parents trust you and let you make your own choices, is showing that you are mature and responsible enough for the task. It is hard! Besides, you are only 16... there is time ahead. You have to understand that, at that age, there are many things you don't realize yet, and so your parents may be a little too tight. Remember, time flies! And know that they are doing it because they really care about you.
By Zooey on Tuesday, June 30, 1998 - 04:16 am:
Frankly, I'm extremely agnostic, although not necessarily atheist because I believe in spirituality and I'm beginning to study the Wicca religion. It's very appealing and intriguing but I'm keeping my mind open to other religions like Buddhism. Hindism, or Baha'i Unity. I just never liked following a set of strict rules that were especially conservative and Puritan-like and especially when they belittled women or exempted them from leadership roles.
I'm not such a bright student when it comes to theology except criticizing the Bible of Christianity when it is abused or misused by Catholics [specifically on abortion and homosexuality, etc, etc.]
Shampoo. You sound like you are trapped in an ugly and messy dilemma. No matter what choice you will select, consequences will not come in luscious cherry lollipops. You are lucky to be a daughter of such idealistic parents. Of course, there is always a generation gap between the parents and the kids. That's definitely NOT new, believe me. Perhaps you could try a subtle approach. Write your father a letter, trying to map out your feelings towards religion and freedom and whatever you need to discuss. Changes happen within time. Your father may eventually come to try to see your point of view and perhaps learn to respect you.
But you're 16 and that's a young age. Hey I was 16 once! Oh. that was last year. Nevermind. I hated being 16 because my parents blew up at me for questioning Christianity in a rebellious way and practicing my own set of... rituals and beliefs that didn't appeal to them apparently. But they realize that they have to give me space to grow and let me go eventually at some point in this century because I'm not a little girl anymore. I'm my own self.
No matter what happens and no matter what will your desicion come out in this dilemma, you can always find support here! [which I hope you already knew that]
By Laurel on Wednesday, July 1, 1998 - 12:18 pm:
By Jane on Thursday, July 2, 1998 - 01:57 am:
You can't "Mis-interperet" what the Bible says about homosexuality. It says it's wrong, period. Jesus did and does love everyone (including homosexuals), He even dined with a prostitute. But that doesn't mean the practice is right. I could love a gay friend and still believe what they are doing is wrong.
By JaNae on Thursday, July 2, 1998 - 04:42 am:
and an old priest said, speak to us of religion. and he said: have i spoken this day of aught else? is not religion all deeds and all reflection, and that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul, even while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom? who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations? who can spread his hours before him, saying "this for God and this for myself; this for my soul, and this other for my body?" all your hours are wings that beat through space from self to self. he who wears morality but as his best garment were better naked. the wind and the sun will tear no holes in his skin. and he who defines his conduct by ethics imprisons his song-bird in a cage. the freest song comes not through bars and wires. and he to whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut , has yet visted the house of his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn. your daily life is your temple and your religion. whenever you enter into it take with you your all. take the plough and the forge and the mallet and the lute, the things you have fashioned in necesity or for delight. for in revery you cannot rise above your acheivements nor fall lower than your failures. and take with you all men: for in adoration you cannot fly higher than their hopes nor humble youself lower than their despair. And if you would know God be not therefore a solver of riddles. rather look about you and you shall see Him with your children. and look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lighting and descending in rain. you shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees.
By Keridwyn on Thursday, July 2, 1998 - 08:37 pm:
To misinterpret the Bible is the easiest thing to do. In fact, it is what all who read do, in one point or another. The Bible nowhere directly condemns homosexuality. There is no use even quoting anything, do remember there are some hundreds of translations of the Bible, each translation interpreting things a bit different. The original texts of the book, unfortunately, are no longer available. We will never really know everything the Bible is really meant to say.
The "practice" of homosexualism is not something you are entitled to speak about, as I see you are not homosexual. What heterosexual can speak for gays and what they feel?
By Shampoo on Friday, July 3, 1998 - 03:16 am:
1 Cor 6:9
"Fornicators, men who lie with males, kidnappers, liars, false swearers, and whatever other thing is in opposition to the healthful teaching according to the glorious good news of the happy God, with which I was entrusted."
1 Tim 1:10, 11
Just had to say it, there ya go.
By Shampoo on Friday, July 3, 1998 - 03:17 am:
1 Cor 6:9
"Fornicators, men who lie with males, kidnappers, liars, false swearers, and whatever other thing is in opposition to the healthful teaching according to the glorious good news of the happy God, with which I was entrusted."
1 Tim 1:10, 11
Just had to say it, there ya go.
By Keridwyn on Friday, July 3, 1998 - 10:24 am:
I friendly and honestly suggest people to not buy into any of the prejudice of the new translations. Each one reads what the translator wants it to. You ain't getting me convinced. ;-)
By Jane on Friday, July 3, 1998 - 03:41 pm:
beautiful passage I think I'll pick up the prophet.
Shampoo, thanks for the quotes.
Keridwyn,
I'm not going to try to convince you of anything. There comes a point when people block out a message simply because they don't want to hear it, and no argument or logic will convince them. What you know to be true is in your heart. I believe I am "entitled" to speak of anything I choose. I wansn't speaking of how gay people feel but if I felt like speculating on that, I would. Just as an author or a songwriter talks about people and situations they have not experienced. Do I have the right to say Martin Luther King was a good man even though I'm white and don't know first hand the struggle of black pepole? Yes I do.
By Keridwyn on Saturday, July 4, 1998 - 12:12 pm:
I noticed that I have read more work about the original scripts than a few christians who want to argue. I also noticed that, there comes a point when those same christians, out of sustaining some kind of prejudice or sexism, will simply block out a message (such as the original scripts that we still have today!) simply because they don't want to hear it. Let's not even talk of logic, in that case.
I hold no grudge against any religion. I do hold grudge against people who use their faith to perpetuate prejudice of any kind.
Keri
By Marsha on Saturday, July 4, 1998 - 02:17 pm:
PS I know I will get lots of crap for this but I'm not trying to insult you!!!
By Jane on Saturday, July 4, 1998 - 06:12 pm:
You're right about this Christian not being up on her "original scripts" So in my ignorance I can't help to clarify them or support them. But I do have a bible and I don't need to go back to the Dead Sea Scrolls to defend what I believe in.
There's a difference between race, sex and homosexuality. I believe that homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle (unlike race or sex) I know there's a debate as to whether your born a homosexual, I don't believe that.
Anyway, that certainly doesn't constitute predjudice against homosexuals. If you know Christians who are predjudice they are struggling with their faith, we're human too. I'm certainly not predjudice but I still disagree with homosexuality. For example, if I was an employer and the best person for the job was gay I'd hire him/her. If we got to be good friends I would still have no problem looking into their eyes and saying "As a Christion, I don't agree with homosexuality." I don't know why anyone gay or not would have a problem with that.
By Jane on Saturday, July 4, 1998 - 06:13 pm:
You're right about this Christian not being up on her "original scripts" So in my ignorance I can't help to clarify them or support them. But I do have a bible and I don't need to go back to the Dead Sea Scrolls to defend what I believe in.
There's a difference between race, sex and homosexuality. I believe that homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle (unlike race or sex) I know there's a debate as to whether your born a homosexual, I don't believe that.
Anyway, that certainly doesn't constitute predjudice against homosexuals. If you know Christians who are predjudice they are struggling with their faith, we're human too. I'm certainly not predjudice but I still disagree with homosexuality. For example, if I was an employer and the best person for the job was gay I'd hire him/her. If we got to be good friends I would still have no problem looking into their eyes and saying "As a Christion, I don't agree with homosexuality." I don't know why anyone gay or not would have a problem with that.
By Anonymous on Saturday, July 4, 1998 - 06:16 pm:
If you think God is a hypocrite that makes innocent pepole suffer, why are you looking for Satanists. Who do you think Satan is-A true blue demon who makes everyone innocent or not suffer?
Why are you so angry with God?
By Laurel on Monday, July 6, 1998 - 10:28 am:
By Marsha on Monday, July 6, 1998 - 03:07 pm:
I know that Satan is supposed to be the master of all pain and evil. I dont know how you look at the world but I see far mor misery than good. If god were really protecting us that wouldn't be the case. But I do believe in higher powers. The satanists I was a part of were not so interested about making everyone else miserable, we are interested in making ourselves content. It is about doing what you want and indulging yourself.
I am mad at god for a number of pitiful reasons I would rather not describe, but I'll tell you this as easy as my life has been I have barly made it. My pain is still as real as the pain of my freinds who had it much worse than me. I don't understand that inocent thing though, I never said I was innocent.
By Star on Monday, July 6, 1998 - 08:08 pm:
The Witches VoiceA wonderful site with tons of information... This site also has editorials and the such and a giagantic contact list so that you can find witches around America, and I think it's global too.. There is a section for teenagers, too...
Celtic Crow Teen ForumThis site is a forum where you can find me posting almost every day... It is mostly for teens, but at the main site, you can follow the links and post on the parent, military or gay/lesbian/bisexual forums... Also, the main site offers alot of information for the beginning witch.
Star's Witchy Page This is my page!!! I don't have alot of information up here yet, and for some reason the graphics don't work well with Netscape, but I have alot more links on my "links page" whch can be found here.
Hope these help you all out! If you need any additional information, or want more links, or just want to ask me a question, feel free to E-Mail me here!
Blessed be!
*Star*
By Dreaming on Monday, July 6, 1998 - 09:32 pm:
you sound so sad! (i mean that genuinely) I hope you will eventually feel comfortable with opening up more.
If satanists are pure pleasure seekers, can you imagine an entire world made up of them? Ouch! I don't think Hedonism is the way to go. And I don't think BlueEyes would have written you that sweet poem if all he cared about was pleasing himself.
you obviously weren't happy purely indulging yourself so that can't be the answer. I hope you find some emotional bandaids!
hoping you feel better,
"D"
By Anonymous on Thursday, July 16, 1998 - 12:48 pm:
Humans make people suffer, not God!
By Marsha on Thursday, July 16, 1998 - 05:36 pm:
By BlueEyes on Friday, July 17, 1998 - 03:31 pm:
XXXX
David
P.S. Maybe I'm meant to be your Guardian Angel. May "Love" be with you always!!
By Marsha on Friday, July 17, 1998 - 04:38 pm:
Hmm I didnt always think most people were hypocrites, but I always hated hypocricy because of my dad (telling me he'd do things then saying he didn't remember that. Telling me how imature I was for doing this then doing that same exact thing). Then there were the guys (I'll always love you)=<. The more I looked around the more I saw people lying and being hypocritical. But the biggest shock was when I saw those same things inside myself. I hate it but we have to accept that it's a human traight. I think things can get better for me and for the rest of humanity, if we work at it. I do think there is a higher power (god) but I'll have to see a few miracles to believe in his help. Faith can be a wonderful thing at the right time but for now I think I'll have to adopt Mulders (x-files) saying (trust no one).
XOXO
MARSHA
By BlueEyes on Friday, July 17, 1998 - 06:17 pm:
As far as seeing some Miracles...Marsha look all around you!! This Universe, the Planet "Earth", and the very Life that breathes on this tiny island in Space are just a few miracles in themselves. Plus GOD uses mortals like me and you to expand "Love!" Therefore, we are the key to making the changes for a better world upon this small Blue Globe...inwhich we all share.
XOXOX
David
P.S. We all must constantly wrest with our personal Demons, learning how-to bind them within strong secured cages (its an never-ending tasks)...you see thingys clearer than you realize! You seem pretty mature to me!
By Marsha on Sunday, July 19, 1998 - 01:27 pm:
How do you stay so happy? How do you survive in the real world? Why is it that even when I should be happy (when my boyfreind says he loves me) that it just makes me more sad. How old are you? Is this just a teen angst thing? (I'm 13) Do you believe hate is equally powerful to love? :>(
By BlueEyes on Tuesday, July 21, 1998 - 11:40 am:
XOXOX
David
P.S. Thanks again for letting me share my thoughts with you. May "Love" be with you always!!
By Marsha on Wednesday, July 22, 1998 - 09:14 pm:
How did a guy like you get hooked up with a pro girl mostly teen web site? ;) Exactly how much time do things usually take to get better? Cause people say that all the time but I know people of all ages who are miserable. Oh well... today is better than yesterday and stuff.
XOXO
Marsha
By BlueEyes on Thursday, July 23, 1998 - 11:15 am:
============================================
** Seekers of a Rare Treasure **
by David L. Davis - Winter '97
My thoughts are like waves upon this Great Sea of Consciousness -
Pushed along their way by the winds of Electronic Transmission -
Love a Living Force, free of Boundaries, Ageless…always moving -
Who can contain it or store it away without Expression -
You are a Rare Treasure hidden from my sight -
Until your footsteps brought you to where I stood -
Our long journey has begun with the very First Step -
Seeking Love & Truth, as we become the person, we both were meant to be.
===============================================
Marsha to answer your 2nd question…it's my *Humble* opinion that once one clears out of the Haze of the "Teen Years" (the stage of moving from being a child 'n' growing into adulthood) which is very difficult Physically and Mentally, that it’s easier for a person to decide who there are or who they would like to be. Which leading them into their “Twenties,” where they should focus mainly on developing their Education (College) / Career, then between the mid to late twenties many decide to marry. Within the “Thirties” people continue to build their Career, Family, Education, & etc. As you can see Life is full of Stages, but again I do believe the “Teen Years” to be the worst one to deal with. Therefore thingys do become better!! :)) Thanks again for listening.
*HugZ*
David (a Bible name, which in Hebrew means “Beloved One”)
By Care on Sunday, July 26, 1998 - 12:41 pm:
I don't really know where to start. No matter what- people will argue about their religions. This ones better, or that religions wrong , or blah, blah, blah..
If YOU think your in the right church, then just be happy.
I found out that teens who belong to SOME kind or religion are usually more happier then others. Well at least content to some sort. It gives them something to belive and everyone needs something to belive. I may not belive everything that some churches teach are true, but as long as noone forces their beliefs on me,
I'm happy for them. That they found something in life.
I'm probably not making any sense but that's OK.
If anyone here needs someone to talk to about their religion, you can talk to me. I'm not predjudice about any one religion, so I won't say your wrong about this and that. Care :)
By Shampoo on Wednesday, July 29, 1998 - 02:42 am:
By BlueEyes on Wednesday, July 29, 1998 - 02:28 pm:
By Shampoo on Thursday, July 30, 1998 - 08:57 pm:
I guess I have to wait till the guys in my age group grow up a little, or maybe go after an older guy, but older guys come with their own problems. So I dunno.
Hey, anyone out there, what is it about a person that makes them attractive to jerks? Because it can't just be coincidence, it's gotta be something I'm doing, right? The last 4 guys who have been interested in me were either bad boys, annoying creeps, or just plain selfish assholes. Is it too much to ask to find someone who's not full of himself, has a good set of values, and likes me for my personality not because he's horny?
By Marsha on Sunday, August 2, 1998 - 08:06 pm:
I have no clue, but I am exactly the same way. Don't dis bad boys though, I think they're funny!
By Puck on Monday, August 3, 1998 - 05:32 pm:
By Kate on Tuesday, August 4, 1998 - 10:14 am:
Most of these religions have as their figurehead a male god of some description. Surely this should tell you something, like it is a basic HUMAN need to explain away bad things like famine and bad weather as an "act of god" or a punishment for evil.
Gods have been created by humans in the distant past. To start with there were spirits along the lines of Japanese Shinto'ism and Shamanism. Then there were the shepherd and pastoral gods for the herding tribes of the middle east. All of this kind of belief is a Human creation. Humans feel the need to have their actions taken out of thier hands. "God told me to do it" or "It's written in the bible" is a common way that people like David Koresh (of Waco fame) get their own way.
For example, futher up in this discussion Jane condemned homosexuals as evil in the eyes of god. Shampoo then quoted lines of the bible. Well in the same book that Sodm and Gomorrah is in is a decree for ALL men to wear beards and long hair. I dont see any of the popular preachers doing this. Nor do I see them abstaining from pork and shellfish as they are "unclean"
People have a VERY selective memory when it comes to using text from holy books. They use what serves their purpose in a cynical way and ignore the rest.
Face it, religions were created by men to oppress women and other members of society who didn't act in a tradtional way.
Sorry about the length of this post, but this is something that REALLY irritates me, where people get all pious and start quoting religious texts at each other to justify their bigotry and hatred.
By Keri on Tuesday, August 4, 1998 - 11:32 am:
Don't be pissed at Christians, or anyone, for that matter. Religion is more than a handful of prejudicial traditions. So many of the people who hold prejudice don't even know what is behind their own practices.
So... smile at ignorance... :-)
By Cookie monster on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 02:49 am:
kate, what you said made a lot of sense except for the last part. religion wasn't created to opress women, not everything opresses women!! hello, can't anyone out there see how good we have it? if anything, it's the *men* out there who are opressed, everyone is afraid of being "sexist" so they treat the women better!
for example, if a man and a woman were going for the same job, and the man got it, the woman would scream sexism. it doesn't matter if he was more qualified, if the woman didn't get the job, it must be because the employer was sexist. so what would happen in a situation like this? the woman would get the job.
I hate it so much when people use discrimination and prejudice, blah blah blah as excuses for everything. "well i got an f in science... it's because i'm black! oh my god!" or "they gave that award to that boy over there... female opression!! sexism!! oh my god!!"
PEOPLE, please!! I totally understand you and I know how frustrating it can be sometimes, but just because everything doesn't come easy to you doesn't mean it's because we're women, it's because we're people, and people have to work hard and overcome obstacles to get what they want.
now I know that sometimes complaints like this can be totally valid, and you'll know when it is. sexual harassment is a big issue, and obviously, if you were more qualified for a job then the bum you were against, and he got it and say the employer said something really sexist, then ya, you have a valid complaint.
everyone is repressed somehow, out of fear. It's not just women, it's not just certain races, it's everybody. learn to accept it!!
By Care on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 08:06 pm:
I agree with Keri. No one will ever agree on anything about religion. Did you know that religion is one of the most argued subjects? That's because everyone is set in their ways and thinks every one ELSE's religion is wrong, and they like to argue. Sometimes 2 people will look at a part of the bible and see two totally different meanings. That's because the bible has a lot of symbolism in it. People can read them in a lot of different ways. They will never agree. Gotta go!
Care =-Ţ
By Wominist on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 10:14 pm:
I agree that to many people picture God as a man. Actually God has no form and often I think of my own spirituality as feminine.
I don't think people should focus seriously on insignificant details from the Bible (like keeping a long beard) as on significant ones (like sexuality). Even if you don't believe in God, look at the Law of Nature. Is homosexuality natural? If we all decided to be homosexuals this very minute (and we weren't as technologically advanced as we are) the world would cease to be populated. Think about that.
Also, think about how complicated the world is. Our atmosphere, our bodies. Think of how we develop so perfectly, our sex, our minds. Do you think this is from a "Big Bang" I think an intelligent creator is behind it.
By Care on Friday, August 7, 1998 - 01:46 pm:
Care
By Ranma on Wednesday, August 12, 1998 - 07:51 pm:
By Wominist on Wednesday, August 12, 1998 - 08:37 pm:
By Shampoo on Thursday, August 13, 1998 - 03:21 am:
it never says in the bible that evolution happened. i don't know why the pope would say that if it's on his beliefs only. i thought catholism worshipped *God* and not *Pope*.
no offense to any catholics out there, i'm not insulting you or your religion, i'm just mad about how a lot of organised religions behave these days. i'm sorry if it came across like i was insulting the entire religion, it wasn't meant to be that way.
By Care on Thursday, August 13, 1998 - 12:23 pm:
Prove that it does.
By Kate on Monday, August 17, 1998 - 08:03 am:
And as for evolution. It does exist. I could quote reams of papers which discuss evolution and explain how it happens. Its a case of reading up on it. Evolution is a non-concious process which takes place over periods of time. It is a case of environmental selection of organisms which fit the current state of the environment. For instance, in an area of savannah like the African plains, it is likely that animals with markings that enable them to be disguised by the surrounding vegetation will survive longer than animals which dont have these markings. These animals are likely to produce more offspring (because they live longer) which have similar markings (in the way in which you or I have the same nose or eyes or haircolour as our parents) and will therefore be protected in the same way their parents are.
This seems to be common sense. Organisms change throughout generations to fit their environment. This is evolution. What is so difficult to believe about this?
And as for humans being "too complicated to evolve" why is this? Do you think that we were placed on earth in 4,004 BC (as some bishop once claimed) fully formed?. Im sure that even you can see that in the past 100 years humans have made technological progress which cant be explained by the bible. THIS is a form of evolution too. An evolution of intelligence rather than form. Im sure your computer is far superior to the one that you had 15 years ago. That is technological evolution. You can see it happening before your eyes.
I'll stop ranting for a while.
PS prove to me in a well argued rational way that evolution does not exist.....and I dont mean just saying "the bible says so". Its not a good enough argument.
By Care on Monday, August 17, 1998 - 03:58 pm:
I'm sorry I asked you to prove it in the first place. I don't want to get into a huge argument or anything. If I wanted to, i could sit here all day and write about why evolution isn't true, but I don't feel like it. I'm not going to change your mind about what you think about evolution and your not going to change mine. So let's just leave it at that........
By Kate on Tuesday, August 18, 1998 - 12:33 pm:
Can you explain why life is like it is in another way? I am actually interested in other people's ideas about the formation of the earth and nature upon it.
This is because I am studying for a PhD in ecology. Intellectual ideas about evolution are actually what ecology is based upon. Ecology is the study of adaptation of organisms to their environment and vice-versa. Ecology would not happen if evolution does not happen. I see it happening, I study it, and then I am told there is no such thing.
Can you understand why your point blank denial of this fundamental scientific fact frustrates me
You were the one who laid the challenge down in the first place so you obviously have something to say about it. I would like to listen if only to understand how other people see the world.
Kate
By Shampoo on Wednesday, August 19, 1998 - 02:46 am:
By Wominist on Thursday, August 20, 1998 - 08:06 pm:
Like Kate pointed out, it is quite easy to see that evolution does exist. If you take a highschool social studies class they talk of how the human skull was slightly larger thousands and thousands of years ago. Development is evolution and we have developed mentally and physically over the years.
However, I am a Christian and I believe God created the world and that He created humans in the human form. But I believe humans and the world are evolving. See, we can work together!
Kate, when I said "we're to complex to have just evolved" I meant that the human being is soooo wonderful-mind, body and *spirit* that there has to be an intelligent Creator. If I started off as a little protoplasm (i don't care how many millions of years went by) I can't believe I'd be the unique creature that I am today. How does pure evolution explain a conscience, a soul? What course of evolution made me human, why didn't I turn into a bird or a fish?
Remember that play "Inherit the Wind" It's all about evolution vs Christianity. There's this one quote in it I love: "Science would have us measure the distance between stars and forget He that holds them in His hands."
My point is that I think God created our world and evolution takes place on it.
By Gilmoure on Saturday, August 22, 1998 - 09:29 pm:
One of the cooler things I've done was to take some classes in Biblical Hebrew and then read the Torah. So much is lost in translation. My ˘2.
Gilmoure
By Marsha on Saturday, August 22, 1998 - 11:00 pm:
remember that posting way back on the 5th. I have to say I thought it was a load of crap. Is homosexuality natural, well to some people it is. Do we develop so "perfectly", I think not. I believe there is a creator behind this world but whether it is intelligent is yet to be discussed.
MARSHA
By Anonymous on Tuesday, August 25, 1998 - 01:47 pm:
By Wominist on Tuesday, August 25, 1998 - 10:38 pm:
Ouch, I sense a bit of hostility.
There is a saying that goes something like this: "It is easy for people who don't believe in anything to tolerate everything."
We live in a society that allows us to think everything is o.k. Homosexuality, casual sex, e.t.c. If you happen to say something like "I don't think homosexuality is right" People jump on you and accuse you of being a bigot, a religious fanatic or a prude. It is o.k. for you to say to me: "I think your opinion about homosexuality being wrong is crap" Because society loves your "People should just do what makes them happy" attitude. But if I say:"Marsha, if you think homosexuality is o.k., that's crap" I'll get my head chewed off. "Things that make you go hmmmmmm"
As for developing "perfectly" I think the fact that any man can make love with any woman is perfect. I think the way woman are designed to be able to bear children is perfect. I think that someone having the courage and love to risk their life for another is perfect. The list goes on...
Go outside, breathe, look at a tree, hug a friend, hold your boyfriends hand, look at the ocean, listen to music. Marsha, the spirit that created this world, is not stupid.
By Shampoo on Wednesday, August 26, 1998 - 03:52 am:
By Gilmoure on Wednesday, August 26, 1998 - 12:34 pm:
Where did the Earth come from? There is a book called a A Brief History of Time by Stephan Hawking. In it, he uses mathematics and cosmology and philosophy to show how it's possible to extrapolate back to a fraction of a second after the big bang (out of which everything evolved). The neat thing about this is that, before this split second, it is mathematically and logically impossible to find out what happened. As he says, there was a big flash of energy (light) and everything else came forth. For me, that clinches it.'God' isn't really an old man in a flowing beard for me. I'm more into the idea of a Force of life that manages to look back at itself (us and others) and talks to itself. Sorta' like the Hindu idea of a god that splits off parts of itself (we have a little in us) that come back after a while. Oh well, lunch time.
G
By Shampoo on Thursday, August 27, 1998 - 03:02 am:
By Gilmoure on Thursday, August 27, 1998 - 08:40 am:
In another vein, you can suddenly get a moment of understanding and clarity where everything does make sense. Just about all religeons have records of this happening to people and I can attest to the fact as well. Unfortuainately, such events can be interpreted by an number of means so it's a little hard to say "This religeon is right." If you have an open mind when such clarity happens, you have to make up your own mind about it.
Making up your own mind about how the world is, as opposed to getting an answer from some source is a major step in maturing. In effect, you are saying "This is how the world is because I say so." Kind of god like if you think about it. Many people on this board have already started along this path by questioning the way society is now. Saying that things, sa they stand are wrong is the first step. Deciding how they should be is another. A toast to defining your own world! After all, you have to live in it. Why accept someone elses definition.
I know, a lot of weird rambelings. It's early and I haven't even grabbed a shower yet. Got to skuttle of to work now.
Take it easy,
G
By Shannon on Thursday, August 27, 1998 - 03:56 pm:
I was in Philosophy last semester, and a lot of people in there also believed that God made the universe, the world, etc. The question that came next, though, was, Where did God come from? And if you say that God is eternal, that's the same thing as saying that the Universe is eternal... there are a lot of people that think that God is the sum of the universe, anyway. God cannot have always been, there has to have been a point of creation.
I think that early man didn't know where he came from, just like today's man doesn't know, so he said God was were he came from, which worked for hundreds of years. But that just continues the question... kinda like "Where do babies come from?" "Mommy". Well, that's partially true, but there's a whole lotta science missing there. Then science started poking holes in the Christian creation story... things like have already been said, dinosaurs and cro-magnon man and other fossils, that just aren't included in the creation story. So, "God" is'nt a good answer anymore... our society has developed to the point where we have to ask "Where did God come from?" I can't explain this nearly as well as my Philosophy prof did, but if you take Phil., it will be a lot more clear. (Not that all you do in there is criticize religion... :) )
And, not to criticize Christianity, because I have no problem with most Chrisitianity (as long as you don't bomb abortion clinics, etc. :) ), but if you read Genisis 1:25, it says that God made animals, then man and woman. Then, later, in 2:18, it says that God first made man, then animals, then, to keep Adam company, women. If that's the word of God, then he needs a much better proofreading system. And I personally don't believe that God makes mistakes. So I have to believe that just some guy wrote Genisis, which means that there's not really any reason to believe it.
There's also no allowance in most creationsist theory for the tiny lil' critters (amoebas, bacteria, etc) that have been found, preserved, all over the world, nor is there an explanation for the bacteria we found on Mars. I'm not trying to knock Christianity, or any of the other major religions with similiar myths...I'm just saying that maybe it's not a good idea to literally interpret a book written 2,000 years ago.... the Genisis creation myth parallels a lot of other ancient creation myths... it was a way for mankind to deal with the mysteries of life. And to say that isn't to deny God, or even Christianity... the ancient myth that was taken out of Jewish holy books has nothing to do with Jesus coming years and years later... and before you say that's wrong, the Bible is a collectoin of documents put together by the Catholic church hundreds of years after Jesus's death. They held a council to decide what to put in and leave out.
I personally believe that when the Big Bang occured (which doesn't seem as improbable as it sounds when you read a college-level text about it, like a Brief History of Time), and the universe was created, one of two things happened: either it was God at work (not the way everyone thinks), which leaves the problem is his origin, or at that instant, when the universe formed, it became conscious, and God was created.
Just my 2 cents... I'll probably get a lot of flack for this, but, like I said, I can't respond 'cause Nrrdgrrl won't let webtv users post. (I'm at a friend's house). I only ask that instead of telling me I'm wrong, you refute my arguments logically... then tell me I'm wrong. :)
By Gilmoure on Thursday, August 27, 1998 - 05:18 pm:
No flack here. This is what NrrdGrrl is all about. Shwoing who you are, posting questions and coming up with answers. The point you bring up is a very good one. It's implications are pretty broad when you consider that this need for origans and how did this come to be and why are things like this are heavily ingrained in teh western mindset. In Hinduism (as I understand it) life is a cycle and there is no beginning. There is some evidence for this dealing with the big bang theory. If there is enough mass in the universe, eventually everything will slow and then start contracting. You get what's called the big crunch which sets off another big bang.Cyclic! Of course, if there isn't enough mass, everything keeps spreading out, slowly getting colder and deader until you have a huge, cold universe of dust, basiclly. Kinda' depressing in a way.
The west, as far back as our stories go (the flood, creation, etc.), has been seeking causes and reasons why. Greek philosophy (which is the basis for our modern science outlook on life) really set things going. If you think about it, this is a rather male point of view. Men tend to be linear in their thinking. Hinduism seems to be more feminine in it's ideas of cycles and rebirth. Wonder why . . .
The creation stories mentioned in Genesis have actually been seperated into different creation myths and I think that experts can tell which parts of the middle east the differing tales come from (man and woman were created at once, woman was created from man's rib, etc.). They all started out as oral history as to how and why we are here. They weren't even written down until around a 1000 bce (before common era). Jews as well as Christans have gone through these stories and histories at various times to decide which are holy stories and included in various bibles and which are histories. To really understand this stuff, it helps to take Biblical Hebrew and ancient Greek. Oh well, rambeling again,
G
By Kate on Friday, August 28, 1998 - 06:30 am:
Wow at last, some intelligent discussion instead of just saying that "it is cos the bible says..." which isn't an answer at all.
Religions are definately a means of the human brain trying to explain why things happen. Just because we don't understand something doesnt automatically mean that "God" is behind it. It just means we havent developed enough to have the science to explain it. When people dont understand something, they proscribe intent behind it (ie bad weather, floods, volcanoes, earthquakes) ie society is being "punished" by "God" for being evil.
If society is so evil at the moment as people posting here seem to believe, then we are due a big disaster......Oh hang on, we're having El Nino at the moment so therefore god is punishing us. But because we know the causes behind it, we're not saying that god causes it.
I object to being labelled as part of a "lax" society which allows evil things to happen just because I dont believe in a god. Atheists have as much moral concience as "god fearing" people, if not more. At least we dont go round killing people because they dont believe what we believe(ie fundamentalist christians blowing up abortion clinics, Islamic terrorists blowing up innocent people, David Koresh taking out his followers in Waco)
So spare us your moralizing about homosexuals. Are they doing YOU any harm? As long as one person doesn't hurt another, the world can turn as it likes. Too many wars are carried out in the name of religion. To much hatred is stirred up by religion (ie White Aryan Christian groups hating black people and Black sons of Allah hating white people)
Surely it is better to be a peaceful atheist than a violent member of a religion.
Human nature seems to need an outlet to explain its differences. Religions serve this need.
If there is a god, it certainly doesnt tell people what to do. A god would be outside the universe, encompassing it not interfering and driving individual people's lives.
A good book which explains the nature of atheism and the role of a god outside the universe is
"The knowledge of angels" by Jill Paton Walsh. It is worth reading.
Ok, so standby for flaming to a crispy critter....Im wearing my fireproof jacket.
Kate
By Wominist on Saturday, August 29, 1998 - 05:00 pm:
The Bible says that God is the "Alpha and the Omega" (Rev 1:8)or the beginning and the end. He always has been and always will be.
The Bible isn't a "a collection of documents put together by the Catholic church." It was written by men and women, Jewish and Christian, and it was inspired by God.
Kate,
You say people need religion to explain the world's existence, isn't that why people need science? Faith involves a lot more than that. If people asked me 'why are you a Christion' I wouldn't say 'Because I like to think I know how the world was created' Which brings me to your "A god would be outside the universe, encomposing it,not interfering and driving individual people's lives" Nothing, I repeat NOTHING, could be farther from the teachings I've received about my faith. God is a very personal part of my life. The Spirit of God lives inside of me! Pretty personal. Jesus referred to His disciples as "friends." I can't imagine a God who stood outside of my heart.
I also strongly object to those people who use God as a reason for the misery in the world. God does not cause or enjoy seeing suffering. But I am strongly offended by you saying "at least we don't go around killing people...." Don't stereotype Christions. Wasn't Charles Manson an atheist? You guys must all support serial killers. See how ridiculous that sounds? So don't imply that all Christians support cults and abortion clinic bombings.
And I don't moralize, nor should any Christion. As I've said before: Because God says homosexuality is wrong I think it is wrong. But I'd swallow my tongue before I ever looked at anyone and said: "God loves me more than you" or "I sin less than you."
One last note: "For my thoughts are not your "thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" declares the Lord. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts." Isaiah 55 8-9
We cannot understand God and we hate that. But that's the way it is.We can't even fathom how great He is. And we can't understand why He doesn't owe us an explanation for everything but He doesn't. That's the whole point of faith: believing in something you haven't seen, something that's un-explainable. But some people wouldn't believe even if they did see. Like Joan Osborne sang: "If God had a face would you want to see?" I laugh when people say: "You believe in God because it's the easy thing to do" I'm convinced that not believing in God is much easier.
By Marsha on Saturday, August 29, 1998 - 08:26 pm:
sorry if I sounded hostile. Its just that I have quite a few freinds who are the nicest most tenderharted people who are bi or gay. A book you might want to read is the drowning of Steven Jones. About the intelligent creater thing, I think we're going to have to disagree.
By Shannon on Tuesday, September 8, 1998 - 06:34 pm:
Okay, first of all, you said that the Bible wasn't a collection of documents assembeled by the Catholic church. Are you saying that the historical fact of the Council of Wyrms is a lie? Because it's down on paper, that it occured. Maybe the documents were inspiried by God, it's entirely possible, but you can't just say that they spontaneously appeared, they *were* assmebled. You're right that the Bible says that Jesus is the alpha and the omega. But if the Bible "proves" Christianity, then the Quran "proves" Islam, the writings of Baha'lluh "prove" Ba'hai, and the Torah (sp?) "proves" Judiasm. What is it about the Bible that makes it unquestionable? If it was indeed inspired by God, are all those other books just lying? Surely youy're not going to say that every Muslim, Jew, etc., in the world is following fairy tales, are you? I'm not trying to tear down your beliefs, I just want to know why you say what you do about them.
Second, I'm not quite sure where you got that I said all Christians bomb abortion clincs, because I know they don't. There's a whole lotta Christians, and only a few clinic bombings.... do the math. :) Also, I don't know who told you that Charles Manson was an atheist, because the whole point of his cult was that he thought he was a god. (Which is just crazy, not atheist :) ) But that's not the point, people from every religion commit crimes, everyone knows that. I'll rephrase what I said, I like Christians as long as they're open minded enough to befriend me, or at least treat me like a person, without trying to convert me. I don't like Christians, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Bahai, Shintoists, secular humanists, or atheists who use their faith to belittle or discriminate againist others.
Third, if God doesn't cause suffering, who does? Why is there cancer, that kills little children or cripples their parents? Why did 3,000 people die from the heat in India this summer? Does Satan do that? And, if he does, why can't God overpower him? If God "has" to make us suffer here, so we'll appreciate Heaven, that doesn't make sense either, because if God is all powerful, he doesn't "have" to do anything, including making humans suffer. He could just cause us to appreciate the differences between our realm and the heavenly one. So, if he does make us suffer, even if it is to appreciate the rewardswaiting for us after we die, he does it by choice. Either that, or God isn't all powerful. (My personal view, if anyone cares, if that God causes both suffering and joy.... life wouldn't really mean anything if there wasn't anything to overcome.)
By Wominist on Tuesday, September 8, 1998 - 09:05 pm:
There's a good website concerning the timeline of the New Testement: Http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ45.HTM
The Council of Wyrms isn't mentioned. According to this timeline the New Testement was finally assembled in 397AD by the Council of Carthage. But your right about the Catholic church's involvement of this assembly. I realize the Bible was assembled, I misunderstood the context of your statement.
Nothing can "prove" faith, that's why it's faith. Many people have a difficult time with this concept and yet we put our faith in people everyday. When my doctor gives me a perscription I have no way of knowing what it really is and yet I get it filled and I take the medicine. Faith-beliving without proof. However once you have faith, God reveals Her presence to you.
I realize there are other religions in the world. The Bible speaks of the different religions that existed back then (paganism e.t.c.) All humankind will never accept the idea of God. I belive God chooses individuals be them from Muslim, Jewish, Christion or atheist backgrounds. That's why a *personal* relationship with Christ is so important. Someone can dispute my religion and I can dispute their religion (or lack of) but one cannot dispute the *personal* relationship I have with God.
I didn't do my research on serial killers but like you said that wasn't the point. The comment on Christions and crime was directed to Kate who said:"At least we (atheists) don't go round killing people because they don't believe what we believe (i.e.fundamental Christions blowing up abortion clinics)" I'm not a fundamentalist but I still took offence.
Who causes suffering? (or let's it happen)
Satan.
Human Beings.
God, if She chooses to do so for Her reasons. Which I don't have to defend. The book of Job is about a good Christion man who experiences a lot of suffering. He ask God 'why' and Job never gets an answer because God chose to do it and She doesn't owe Job an explanation. Like you said: "God doesn't *have* to do anything." Including make everything wonderful.
Why can't God overpoewr Satan?
God can. And essentially did when Jesus died on the cross because that sealed the promise of forgiveness for sinners and the return of God. But for now the Bible says Satan is the prince of power on the Earth. When God chooses to defeat Satan for good and bring an end to the world, She will.
I've tried to do my best to be accurate and clear. You guys encourage me to know my stuff! Thanks.
By Shampoo on Wednesday, September 16, 1998 - 01:37 am:
it's like the universe. there's the earth and the planets and galaxies and stars and stuff, and then empty space of absolutely nothing, but it's hard to understand absolutely nothing, because that's part of the universe too, right? but where does it end? it DOESN'T!! IT GOES ON FOREVER!! HOW!?!?! gah!! it's SO confusing!! doesn't empty space need to be created, too? it's too confusing to even put into words!! what was there before the empty space!? it's *nothing*, right? but doesn't nothingness need to be created as well, in order for there to be *something*, because without nothing there is no something, right?
i'm gonna stop talking now before i give myself a headache or something. i think i'm going to give a brief history of time another chance, see if i can make it this time.
By Gilmoure on Wednesday, September 16, 1998 - 10:58 am:
They also did a movie of 'Brief History". I haven't rented it yet but have seen it at some 'Blockbuster'Stores. Is Canada afflicted with this chain of video pap?
Your question/statement about space being created is right on. As to what was 'there' before space expanded, is nothing. This nothing is really hard for people to comprehend. We always want something (even if it's empty space) to be there.
As for the universe going on and on, I think Einstein came up with the idea that space is curved and if you go far enough, you'll end up back where you started. The problem is that the universe is expanding so the distance gets farther and farther. It's kinda' like being an ant on the inside of a balloon as it's being blown up. You are too small to see that the surface you are on is curved (we can't tell the Earth is curved from where we stand).
As for how hard this book is, it is trying to carry across some of the most difficult concepts in the world. It was also written by one of the smartest persons in the world. It might take some slogging to get through. I just kept it in the bathroom as reader for a while.
G
By Gilmoure on Wednesday, September 16, 1998 - 10:59 am:
They also did a movie of 'Brief History". I haven't rented it yet but have seen it at some 'Blockbuster'Stores. Is Canada afflicted with this chain of video pap?
Your question/statement about space being created is right on. As to what was 'there' before space expanded, is nothing. This nothing is really hard for people to comprehend. We always want something (even if it's empty space) to be there.
As for the universe going on and on, I think Einstein came up with the idea that space is curved and if you go far enough, you'll end up back where you started. The problem is that the universe is expanding so the distance gets farther and farther. It's kinda' like being an ant on the inside of a balloon as it's being blown up. You are too small to see that the surface you are on is curved (we can't tell the Earth is curved from where we stand).
As for how hard this book is, it is trying to carry across some of the most difficult concepts in the world. It was also written by one of the smartest persons in the world. It might take some slogging to get through. I just kept it in the bathroom as reader for a while.
G
By Gilmoure on Wednesday, September 16, 1998 - 10:59 am:
They also did a movie of 'Brief History". I haven't rented it yet but have seen it at some 'Blockbuster'Stores. Is Canada afflicted with this chain of video pap?
Your question/statement about space being created is right on. As to what was 'there' before space expanded, is nothing. This nothing is really hard for people to comprehend. We always want something (even if it's empty space) to be there.
As for the universe going on and on, I think Einstein came up with the idea that space is curved and if you go far enough, you'll end up back where you started. The problem is that the universe is expanding so the distance gets farther and farther. It's kinda' like being an ant on the inside of a balloon as it's being blown up. You are too small to see that the surface you are on is curved (we can't tell the Earth is curved from where we stand).
As for how hard this book is, it is trying to carry across some of the most difficult concepts in the world. It was also written by one of the smartest persons in the world. It might take some slogging to get through. I just kept it in the bathroom as reader for a while.
G
By Gilmoure on Wednesday, September 16, 1998 - 11:00 am:
They also did a movie of 'Brief History". I haven't rented it yet but have seen it at some 'Blockbuster'Stores. Is Canada afflicted with this chain of video pap?
Your question/statement about space being created is right on. As to what was 'there' before space expanded, is nothing. This nothing is really hard for people to comprehend. We always want something (even if it's empty space) to be there.
As for the universe going on and on, I think Einstein came up with the idea that space is curved and if you go far enough, you'll end up back where you started. The problem is that the universe is expanding so the distance gets farther and farther. It's kinda' like being an ant on the inside of a balloon as it's being blown up. You are too small to see that the surface you are on is curved (we can't tell the Earth is curved from where we stand).
As for how hard this book is, it is trying to carry across some of the most difficult concepts in the world. It was also written by one of the smartest persons in the world. It might take some slogging to get through. I just kept it in the bathroom as reader for a while.
G
By Gilmoure on Wednesday, September 16, 1998 - 11:06 am:
G