Grrl Power - the thing the spice girls lack


NrrdGrrl! Discussion Forum: Just Plain Talk: Grrl Power - the thing the spice girls lack
By ANdRomeDA-SkyE on Saturday, June 6, 1998 - 12:07 am:

okay, since the news broke that Geri *a.k.a Slutty Spice* is leavin the Spice Girls, i've been quite happy. I mean, it's about time these Few-hit wunders moved on. their music sucks, and they're just plain annoying. They get on TV, flashing their breasts like no one's business and scream girl power in sappy sterotypical british accents.
Girl power isnt the Spice girls, and anyone who thinks so needs to seek professional help. They *SAY* they're about grrl power, and sing all about sex and men and wannabe's *sigh* they're the idealistical, sterotypical versions of what women *SHOULD* be like according to society and men. they make me sick. *REAL* girl power is about speaking your mind, not backing down or giving up, it's not about dressing sluttily and shaking our breasts *WOW MOM, LOOK THOSE SPICE GIRLS HAVE BREASTS!!! BET THEY'RE THE *ONLY* ONES* *gag* the whole thing urks me. I'm a sk8er and i'm proud. i dont need tight clothes to be me.


By Marie Hioug on Saturday, June 6, 1998 - 12:22 pm:

i'm happy for the spice girl that left. that shows intelligence, something i thought none of them have.


By British Girl on Sunday, June 7, 1998 - 06:01 am:

Erm... What do you mean by sappy stereotypical british accents?


By Anonymous on Sunday, June 7, 1998 - 06:24 am:

Why are you getting so worked up about this? Its music... You know - fun. They must have some sort of "power" to have got this far. OK - this may not be your idea of girl power but a lot of positive things have come out of this. They dont encourage girls to dress like tarts, they encourage girls to dress the way they want to. Are girls nowadays supposed to stay strapped down to a man 'cos Spice girls sing about the plural - you know men. And what is wrong with their clothes? Its FASHION, you know - CREATIVITY. According to men, women should be housewives and clearly this is not the spice girls. You cant insinuate that they back down - they brought fun music to every country in the world. There music does have meaning and if you would take the time to sit and listen then you would realise that. eg. 2 become 1 encourages safe sex and not being a complete slut.

2 words:

GIRL POWER!!!!


By Shampoo on Sunday, June 7, 1998 - 11:25 pm:

Hmm... both of you guys have got good points. Whether or not you like the spice girls depends on you I guess. On one hand, you can say that they promote being yourself and open and carefree about how you dress, and being confident about your body and wearing whatever makes you comfortable. On the other hand you can say that the clothes they wear say that you should show off your body to get what you want and that all a woman is is her boobs, that's all she's worth. It really depends on what you want to believe. I could easily argue both points. I'm not sure what I want to believe, though. I'm not a fan of their music, I prefer a little harder stuff like Our Lady Peace, but I definately think that they must be successful for a reason.

I think anyone who becomes that famous has to be very careful, because the spice girls are influencing many little girls around the world, and they must be extremely careful with what they do and say. This kind of pressure must be tough, and they're not going to please everyone, and they shouldn't feel the need to try, either.

-shampoo
-btw, i think 2 become 1 is an incredibly stupid song, but that's just my oppinion.


By Trista on Monday, June 8, 1998 - 01:54 pm:

i think the guys who write the spice girls' music are okay songwriters, and the pr group that conceived the concept of the girls and girl power almost got it right. but they all got it just wrong enough to irritate some of us.

i get a chuckle, though, that i know so much about them. i don't listen to most radio programming and i don't read teen beat. says something about the power the media has to creep into our minds. kinda scary.

trista


By Aristolena on Monday, June 8, 1998 - 09:24 pm:

yes but then again

how deep is the ocean, yes or no?



all spice girls suck. they're the difference between walking to school and taking your lunch. They're the difference between an orange.


By Lya on Tuesday, June 9, 1998 - 10:27 pm:

Hey Shampoo. I love Our Lady Peace. My fave songs are Superman's Dead, 4 a.m., and Automatic Flowers.

They might not have "girl power" but they rock!

~Lya


By Shampoo on Friday, June 12, 1998 - 08:18 pm:

I don't like the spice girls, I don't listen to their music. But I can't stand it when people start calling them "sluts" and stuff like that. The reason is because of how they dress: but isn't the real "girl power" mean dressing however you want, not worrying about what others think as long as you're comfortable? I wear tanktops that show a little (okay, a lot) of skin. None of you would dare to call me a slut because "slut" is a derogatory term for females, and here at nrrdgrrl, we're against that type of stuff, aren't we? Why is it any different for the spice girls? Why is it okay to call them sluts for what they wear, but we don't call our feminist buddies sluts because as feminist thinking type people we're against that?

You guys are all great, and everything, but I've noticed that in nrrdgrrl, there tends to be a little bit of a double standard on some things. One day someone will say you should be free and independent to dress how you want as long as you're comfortable and not worry about what others think. Then the next minute you'll condemn a group of insanely successful and popular group of girls (just like us) for dressing and acting the way they do!!

Face it, if the spice girls showed up on stage wearing black veils, you would be mad. If they all were naked, you'd be mad. Like I said before, you can't please everyone, and you shouldn't try to conform to other peoples beliefs. Let the spice girls do what they want. They're a *musical* group, it's all about the *music*. What they want to wear while performing that music is their own business. I may not like them, but remember that little thing called "freedom?" the spice girls can make their own choices.

Aristolena, I don't understand a word you said.

Lya, I love 4am! I love our lady peace. I saw them last year at edge fest but *sob*, I missed their concert this year!!


By Keridwyn on Saturday, June 13, 1998 - 12:04 am:

Shampoo,

I think you missed a slight (yet relevant) point. Dressing as they want is sure a sign of freedom. But come on, just between you and me -- do you really think that their ultra-mini-skirts and super-low cleavages are just an expression of freedom, or are they just trying to sell out? Don't be fooled by their freedom talk. None of them have more than 2% body fat, and do you think that this is coincidence, or just another element helping them sell music? Considering they look good, which I sure don't mind saying, why would they not show it off? More money to them. More horny teens and even older men running after them, not particularly because of their music. Add an overweight spice to the group (who can actually sing), and watch their popularity go down the drain.

Bottom line. Their clothes aren't their own expression of freedom. They are probably chosen by the "Spice staff". They wear it short and tight because they have the bod, and it's the only way they sell. That, my friend, isn't freedom the way I know it. They are encouraging anorexia among pre-teen fans, already bombarded by a society neurotic over skin and bones, and they have the guts to call it Girl Power. The minute gravity overcomes the push-up bras (wait a couple of years), you'll get to watch the power and freedom fade away as fast as they arrived.

Humbly... Keri :)


By The Anti-Spice on Saturday, June 13, 1998 - 10:58 am:

MAybe the Spice Girls got this far from male-based promotion, guys buying the dolls, boys getting thier CDs to look at the pics... What I am saying is that there is probably MUCHO amounts of male-support because of how they act and what they wear.

supporters: how do you explain that one S.G. grabbed Prince Henry's ... "personal area" ? is that not tacky and slutty and sickening? he's ROLATY, for pete's sake? are there no standards anymore?


By Shampoo on Monday, June 15, 1998 - 08:54 pm:

Hello! What are you talking about no more then 2% body fat? No offense to the spice girls, but they are *not* that thin! baby spice and the late ginger spice are kinda on the chunky side, incase you couldn't tell! But they wear what they want because they want to! And not all of them dress that way, either. sporty spice dresses, well... sporty!

So you think the spice girls are thin thin thin. I disagree, but even if they are, isn't that a *good* thing? What are you saying the spice girls should be fat? How are they encouraging anorexia? Once, some media thing called baby spice "chunky spice", and she replied back (i can't remember the exact words, but this is pretty close) "that was not a nice thing to say. somewhere out there some little girl is thinking 'well if she's fat, then what am i?' and getting all depressed.'

Hey, if you've got it, then why not flaunt it?


By The ANONYMOUS from the top of the page on Tuesday, June 16, 1998 - 07:18 pm:

I'm with Shampoo on this one... I wouldnt exactly call Baby and Ginger Spice super "skinny". Also, Sporty Spice doesn't wear the tight, figure hugging clothes that you keep referring to.

This is all a confidence, being happy with your body matter, and the Spice Girls are (in my opinion) encouraging people to dress the way that they want. Be honest with yourself for a minute.... I bet a lot of you guys would love to dress this way. I know I would, and I DO!!

Also, Anti Spice, it was Prince CHARLES ass that Geri grabbed and big deal.... you didn't hear him complaining.

Come on, real "Girl Power" is about NOT dictating how people should be.... so why shouldn't they dress and behave the way that they want??? Personally, I think it's about freedom of expression.

SPICE GIRL QUOTE: GIRL POWER is when you believe in yourself and control your own life.


By Shampoo on Tuesday, June 16, 1998 - 07:59 pm:

Personally, I like wearing my "boob shirts" as my sister calls them (tight and low cut). It's because I like my body, I think it's great, and when I like something, I uh... wanna share it with the rest of the world! Does this mean that I'm a slut? Does "slut" even have a meaning? I'm a virgin, but I show off my assets. Does that mean I'm a slut? If I sleep with a different guy every day for 3 years but go around wearing sweatpants and baggy shirts, am I a slut?

Why is it that people feel they can use the word "slut" on famous people (ie the spice girls), but using it on another girl (ie in nrrdgrrl) is a big no no?


By Keridwyn on Tuesday, June 16, 1998 - 11:03 pm:

Well, I see Shampoo and Anon don't gather my meaning.

Skinny is a rather figurative word I used to refer to those kind of people who do have the "bod", in a country where most females find themselves dieting for 3/4 of their lives; no, I don't think any of them are skin and bones, but they look good and don't mind baring it all. Sadly, you don't realize it has purposes beyond "girl power" or "express yourself". It's called money making.

If you truly think that when you wear your "boob shirt" and other fantastic pieces of clothes you are seen upon with much respect, I am sorry to tell you you are sadly mistaken. On the other hand, there are indeed those who don't care (or so they say). Yet it appears to me that females who do think highly of themselves would like to receive some respect and would not enjoy having the particular fame of "slut" (whatever that means, after all, I don't recall using it. The dictionary should give you something.)

I am sorry also to see those ladies who call themselves feminists and yell hard to the world that they are tired of being seen as sex objects. It "just isn't fair". Well, life isn't fair to begin with; only the strong come along. Secondly, I must say I laugh too hard when I see the same ladies wearing "boob shirts" and Spice-type outfits. After all, there is nothing comfortable in high heels (which are cause to foot deformation), mini skirts (the type you have to walk on your toes so that it won't keep sliding upward; also hard to keep down while you sit and do other common things in everyday life), or cleavages so low you can't bend down to pick up something or your tits will hang out of your shirt. I'm yet to find the women who wear that for themselves, as they often say, and to express themselves. After all, if you like having your toes jammed all day long and having to hold your skirt all day while you try to do anything useful, you may as well be a masochist at her best. The truth is ugly: most of those ladies are doing it to call attention of men (preferably), in the most anti-feminist way I can think of.

Indeed I see you missed the meaning of what I said by far. Had you paid attention, you'd notice that I certainly support freedom of expression, but I also support common sense. You are what you wear. Maybe not for yourself, but in this less-than-perfect world, where reputation is a valid thing, people will see you largely by how you are dressed. Whether you like this or not, or care or not, I am sorry to say you will not manage getting one of those nice, high paid jobs feminists long for, wearing your "boob shirt". Unless of course, you're a Spice Girl.


By The ANONYMOUS at the top of the page on Wednesday, June 17, 1998 - 02:00 pm:

We don't all wear these tight clothes for the attention of guys. I wear these clothes because when I look good, I feel good.

Keri, you are making out that we wear these clothes all day, every day but that is not the case. Is there anything wrong with wearing these clothes to a party when the majority are dressed similarly??? And, sorry, I would not wear these clothes to a job interview.

Basically, my wardrobe consists of many different styles of clothing. Yes, that does mean I have boob tubes, short skirts and high heels (I have the figure for them!!) but I also have basics like jumpers, jeans and trainers. I just wear what I feel like wearing that day and I dont let ANYONE tell me otherwise. As females, I think we should respect that about each other.

P.S. I dont think Shampoo said that she gains respect when wearing her "boob shirt". If you were paying attention, she said she looked good. Therefore, she felt good, and that is the most important thing.


By Keridwyn on Wednesday, June 17, 1998 - 07:19 pm:

You wear tight clothes because when you look good you feel good? Then put it on, stare at yourself a few hours in the mirror, and then change and go out. I bet it won't work as well though.

Looking good is different than looking promiscuous, if I recall. I can look good wearing clothes that would not have me looking like a whore.

I am not a conservative extremist, anon, I don't wear baggy pants to the beach (in fact, I hate beggy pants). Sure I have a variety of clothes in my closet. Sure there are times when we all dress more sensual, because there are times when it is perfectly appropriate. Sure I have heels, some tight wear. It is absolutely possible to wear them without looking promiscuous.

Chill out, anon. I am not judging you or Shampoo and haven't called anyone a "slut". I don't assume things about people I don't know. If you scroll back up and read carefully, you'll see that I said nothing about you or Shampoo behaving in the manner I described. This conversation started because of the Spice Girls wear, not yours or hers.

What I did try to point out is that I see to many teenagers (I believe you both are? Correct me if I am wrong.) wearing ridiculously trashy outfits in the name of freedom. They are hurting themselves and don't have a clue. Feel free to wear anything you want, anon. But exercise good judgement and common sense. It is only a friendly advice, and many teen girls (along with some shameful adults) are missing the point.

Keri


By Keridwyn on Wednesday, June 17, 1998 - 07:25 pm:

A PS to add, annon.

I would think that most females who participate in the message board of NrrdGrrl would like respect. It is an assumption, I could be wrong.

Men will look at you with different eyes if you are wearing trashy clothes. Maybe some females respect you, but men are biologically programmed to feel something else.

Unless you are selective in source of respect, that is, you only care if women respect you but not men, and society in general, you should take that advice. If you are already doing so, than only better for you. Spread the word.


By Shampoo on Wednesday, June 17, 1998 - 09:32 pm:

Boy do I ever have a lot to say: First of all, I don't dress the way I do to get respect. I don't care who respects me and who doesn't, I prefer to get respect by my good grades and nice personality. I know that a lot of people out there judge you on what you wear, but you know what? If they don't like it, they can go lick a telephone pole. I'm not the only one who dresses this way, and the way I dress isn't nearly as showey as some other girls I know. I don't judge them for wearing short mini skirts and heels, if they like it, got the body to wear it and feel sexy in it, then good for them! I don't wear miniskirts or heels to school, I wear jeans and little *boob shirt* tanktops cuz that's what makes me feel good about myself. Putting it on and looking in the mirror misses the point: when I feel good about myself in my clothes around other people, I'm more open and chatty and friendly and flirty and not thinking *god i hate this shirt it makes me look fat* and sitting off in the corner. When I wear what I like I'm less likely to be intimidated by the pretty girls around me, and more likely to be outgoing and have fun! I know this.

You say that what the spice girls wear is all about money making. So? They're making millions, so obviously it's working. Anybody remembering that the Spice Girls are a *musical group*? Why isn't anyone up here criticing Marilyin Manson? Or "The Artist" (or the artist formarly known as prince or prince or whatever the heck his name is)? It's about the music they produce, which I don't happen to like, that they're about. Let them dress how they want to!

I'd also like to say that I have never once complained about "all I am is a sex object blah blah blah". Sometimes I do complain about "it isn't fair", but it's not about what I wear. *I* wear what I wear, and I'm responsible for what happens.

"they look good and don't mind baring it at all"
Good for them! They look good! SO? Would you be happy if they were overweight and wore sheets? They wouldn't be as popular, would they? Obviouly what they wear is for the money, and it's working.

Maybe I do wear what I wear to get attention from men. So what? It's working, isn't it? And everytime I meet a guy or flirt with a guy or something, I'm like "hey... i'm attractive to men!" and then i feel all happy and stuff. Isn't that a *good* thing?

What anon said was true: we don't wear these things to job interviews and stuff. Obviously there is a limit, and we see that. I wouldn't wear this to religious stuff, either. But I do wear it to school and I do wear it out, and I feel GREAT!!

Oh, and Keri, I'm really listening to what you're saying I respect your oppinion, but I found the "promiscious... looking like a whore" thing kinda not nice.

And so what if us teenagers are dressing the way we're dressing? We're not doing it in the name of freedom. We're doing it cuz we like how we look and we feel good in it and are comfortable in it (by comfortable i don't mean physically... i'm comfie in my pajama's, but i feel like i belong in my tank tops). What I wear isn't trashy!

Oh, and about how men are biologically programmed to feel something else by what we wear? Well in some situations that can be a plus ^_^. I like guys, and I like it when guys like my body! Is there anything wrong with that? No I don't sleep with them, I just feel flattered that I may be attractive to men.

Okay I've talked enough, in short:
I'M YOUNG! I HAVE A NICE BODY!! (not to be conceited... i'm not the slimmest girl, but i'm happy) I won't be young forever, these are my carefree years, and if I wanna spend them going wild and crazy and doing what I want, then let me! We're only young once. Everyone, LOOSEN UP A LITTLE!!! Not everything is an injustice to women!


By ANON at the top of the page on Thursday, June 18, 1998 - 04:42 pm:

First of all, YOU GO SHAMPOO!!!!!

Keri, I don't think that when I wear "trashy" clothes I am hurting myself. Actually, as I said before, I feel better about myself. It's like I feel more confident when I wear them. Men may stare at me but "so what???" I am not interested in people like this. Actually, guys peep their horns at me at the bus stop in the morning when I not wearing these clothes so what is the difference?

You may not have said that Shampoo and I were sluts.... yet, still, you assume that we look like whores when wearing them. Am I correct?

I feel like I do have common sense. I do not condemn people for what they wear or how they behave.... I am a pretty open minded person. I do respect your opinion, but I also have my own opinion.

Basically, yes I am a teenager and I feel that you've got to enjoy life while you can. YOU ARE ONLY YOUNG ONCE!!

P.S. I spell differently from you 'cos I am from the UNITED KINGDOM. Maybe we dress differently aswell.


By Keri on Friday, June 19, 1998 - 12:05 am:

Do note, shampoo and anon, that how I feel about clothing is but my opinion. This message board is here so we can exchange those opinions and rather try to explain why we believe a certain point of view. My point of view comes from seeing things I didn't see when I was 16 or 17. My concern about the dressing code and behavior of US teen girls in general is a genuine one.

Some messages don't get across until we live in the adult world. No, it's not as simple as "I don't care". That's rather unfortunate, I know. A girl who has excellent grades and great personality and dresses like a Spice Girl is going to be misjudged. It's wrong, but it's real. Maybe in High School it doesn't matter, but it's a different story later on.

You are more than entitled to your opinion, girls. Don't think I don't respect that. If that's the idea I passed on, then pardon the misunderstanding, as it was not the intention.

"You may not have said that Shampoo and I were sluts.... yet, still, you assume that we look like whores when wearing them. Am I correct?"
No, anon, you are very incorrect. I am truly sorry to see you and shampoo mistaking my posts as a personal attack -- they are not, and I thought I left that clear the last time I wrote. My exact words were that I do not assume things about people I don't know. Kindly read my post again.

I apologize, Shampoo, if the word whore (for it is strong expression), has offended you. I also see that discussing this subject further is useless, since you feel so attacked. So I'll leave you here with this point of view.

Keri :-)


By LauraW on Friday, June 19, 1998 - 02:08 pm:

Hey, I don't mean to be jumping in on this...but I will.
The fact is, our mothers fought for equal rights so that we could speak our minds, support ourselves, and dress however we bloody well please. If you don't want to dress like a Spice Girl, Keri, then don't. Pretty simple.
As for your comment that women who dress like Spice Girls will be harshly judged in the so called "real world", let me just add this for your consideration. I work in an industry where NOT dressing like a Spice Girl will cause you pain. (No, I'm not a sex worker.) Not that I totally disagree with your opinion. In most businesses, "appropriate attire" does not consist of short skirts and tube tops.
However, your statement that "some messages don't come across until we enter the adult world" is incorrect in so much that you have obviously not entered into every single realm of what you call "the adult world". If you had, you would realize that your experience with sexy clothing is not going to be the same as everyone else's.
And, as for the Spice Girls, I say bravo! In a world where women still earn 85 cents to a man's dollar, they manage to be sucessful, and make loads of money. God bless 'em.


By Shampoo on Friday, June 19, 1998 - 11:37 pm:

Hey Keri, I'm not feeling attacked or anything, I love arguing it's what I do best! (btw, tho, I'm Canadian and I think anon is from the UK). I'm not offended, trust me. I just like wearing what I wear, it's what I like. The spice girls wear what they like, too, so let em! That's what I think, and you're entitled to your oppinion as well, no prob.

-shampoo
-ps: laura, exactly what is your industry? you got me all curious now.


By LauraW on Saturday, June 20, 1998 - 10:32 am:

Hey Shampoo-
Thought I'd get you curious.
I'm a model/actor! In my business, if you don't strut your stuff, the consequences can be no work, and waiting tables is NOT FUN. Lots of people might cry sexism at that...but the business is about looks. The male talent gets treated just as badly, belive me. But the perks, pay and travel are well worth any pain and suffering. And, I make plenty of money modeling to pay my bills while doing theatre or some other project that I actually believe in. I hope to just focus on acting in the near future, but for now, I do both and love it.


By LauraW on Saturday, June 20, 1998 - 10:38 am:

P.S.--Here's a sad but true fact--Modeling and prostitution are STILL the only industries in which women make more then men. If anyone can name some more respectable business where this is also true, I'd love to hear about it. It would raise my spirits to know that we've made some social progress!
Laura


By Shampoo on Sunday, June 21, 1998 - 01:27 am:

Laura - about that information, men making more money then women except in modeling and prostitution, is it a true fact? If so, where can I get the numbers? I'm in an argument with this guy over stuff like that, and he has all these stats and I have nothing.


By Kitten on Sunday, June 21, 1998 - 06:30 pm:

Here I am, thinking about stuff. My boyfriend bought me some clothes (I know...shock horror, a boy shopping for girl's stuff!) and brought home this really cute knee-length skirt with side splits, and a mesh layer top. Sure, it looks sexy, but not slutty. It covers what it needs to cover, but still lets enough up to imagination. Boys like that! Boys actually feel preessure by a girl in a tiny-weenie skirt and little singlet (in winter). Boys want to imagine what a girl would look like in barely anything. I'm not saying anyone here is trampy, I just thought I'd tell you about the cute outfit he bought me!
But just quickly, although it's wrong, girls ARE judged (usually by other girls) for what they wear. I was clubbing once in a below the knee leopard-pattern skirt, boob top and slides and a girl threw her drink on me, saying I was a "dirty slut, only going out to pick up". Mind you, I was with my boyfriend (whom I've been with for 2 years). I think what aggrevated her was how good I looked! Styled but cool. Anyway, wear what you want, but make sure it's the right season and that you don't make your nipples noticable (another horror story...)


By LauraW on Monday, June 22, 1998 - 06:24 pm:

Shampoo--I'm not sure about numbers exactly..could be an old feminist's tale. I'm still hoping that someone has info that says that prostitutes and models aren't alone! However, I do know that it is absolutely true that women overall make less money than men in the same professions. All the stats I've seen on the subject have come from the National Organization of Women. They have a very cool website that you can check.
--Laura
Of course, this has nothing to do with the Spice Girls...sorry!


By Olivia on Tuesday, June 23, 1998 - 08:29 pm:

The plain facts about the Spice Girls are that they:
a) all answered a casting call
b) are completely manufactured
c) don't give a damn what little girls think as long as they buy their records, see their movies, and buy into their endorsements

okay, so a COULD be a rumor--but b and c are definitely true. I say go girls for making some money, but they are not role models. why say "Girl Power--be what you want to be!" and then turn around and be what your (male) creators, producers, and directors want you to be?


By Anonymous on Wednesday, June 24, 1998 - 02:03 pm:

My only issue is
THEY ARE COMPARING THE SPICE GIRLS WITH THE BEATLES!!!!!!!!!!!!


By Anonymous on Sunday, July 26, 1998 - 12:10 pm:

Shampoo, I'm not sure about the exact numbers, but the stat (about modeling and prostitution etc.) is used on the Gorilla Grrls page, you could check to numbers with them


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