Was anyone ever ashamed to be a girl because of the way some girls are and the way girls are sometimes thought of? Did anyone ever wish they were a boy? Did anyone skip doing stuff just 'cuz "girls don't..." and then regret it?
Oh jeez yeah. Being a girl never seemed like any
Yeah - I'm 15 and I've gotten my wake-up call (auto shop, here I come!) But it's not easy getting into any "guy" things once you've gotten into the habit of doing "Girl" things.
Try doing what really interests you, independent of what stereotypes you think exist. Doing "guy" things because they are considered "guy" things by others is the wrong reason; just as wrong as doing "girl" things because they are expected of you.
Hey, take auto shop all you want!! we have the right to do ANYTHING, regardless if it is rendered a girl or guy thing. Whatever. I think I was fortune that my brother was kind enough to include me in his activites (most of the time) but I never got to do daring tricks like jump over boxes on rollerblades or stand up on a riding bicycle!! Now I'm skateboarding, something I had always a strange yearning for, and I don't give a crap what people think! (I mean, people gasp when I tell them I skate! What the hell!) Anyway, don't feel compelled you HAVE to do guy things to challenge stereotypes and prove yourself to everybody, but DO IT FOR YOURSELF!!!
I really hate now that every single girl you meet, they're like " Yeah! I'm a feminist! I go for girl power!" But the thing is...some of these girls don't even know what feminism is all about! It just ticks me off because they're such posers! especially the younger ones like 13 and 14 year olds! And these are the same girls you'll see caught with a boy in the bathroom with his penis up her cat! What I say is that to be a feminist and have respect for all the women out there... you don't need to post it on your forehead and you don't need to scream it to the world! Your actions will show that you respect yourself! That's what I do! And I'm not a hypocrite like a lot of girls out there!
Slant: yeah I kinda feel that way too, but I'm trying to just be grateful that they would even consider calling themselves feminist. I just had my first meeting of a feminist club I started at my school and I was so glad that only one of our flyers got defaced. Of course there's plenty of people that still think we're some sort of lesbian man-hater support group, but people that I wouldn't think would be supportive have been showing some interest and over-all it's been very heartening so far.
I definitely think feminism has gotten a bad rap. I can't even begin to tell you how many e-mails I've gotten in response to this site (NrrdGrrl!) asking me why I'm such a man hater.
i think that the Spice Girls have really trashed the name of the feminist movement. if they want to be all "girl power" and "women rule" then why are they hopping around the stage in 2' high platforms with their boobs falling out of their crop-tops?!? this totaly undermines everything that us girls have been trying to get people to understand for ages! gggggrrrrrrr....
the spice girls whine and complain about guys and love. THOSE ARE SHALLOW TOPICS! what about anarchy in rwanda, the khmer rouge, saddam and his insane mass production of biological and chemical weapons, children of heroin addicts, world politics, and ALL THOSE!!!! god, don't you hate those paradoxically anti-feminist women who are making feminism more painstakingly difficult for us to maintain and advance!? it is up to us and our loud mouths to smack people out of their blindness and educate them something decent! oh yeah, by the way, the way the spice girls dress may be "slutty' (i hate that word!) but more power to them if they want to expose themselves like that, but it's just their damn way of representing our repressed gender! (like songs)
thank you!!!!! finally a site that doesn't only
I just wonder sometimes why life has to be about "guys" and "girls"... I think its about people theres a lot more overlap there than people are willing to admit.. yes.. differences are important especially when we deal with each other.. BUT by focusing on differences arent we really underscoring them ? We need common ground to work from coz we do need each other !!!
Feminism works to eliminate unfair differences between the sexes so that people can be treated as individuals and valued for their true self. There can be no doubt that women are not respected as much as men are in this society, and this must stop before we can sincerely say that humans are humans period.
when i was little i was so glad i was a girl because girls can wear dresses or pants if they want. so if you girls want to wear pants, then wear them! i love video games so much and when ever i go into the stores i am the only girl. and i am proud, dammit!
I have the same thing with comics. I used to work in the store, and you get quite a lot of attention as a girl in a comic store!
*ugh* it's too frustrating, i go through kinda the same thing with guitar shops! i come in, and i'm buying this sixteen stone tab book, and the guy is like, is this for you? gee, uh ya think? and then when i say yes he says , "well, we don't have many girl guitar players around here. especially ones that play hard rock." and he flashed this cheesy grin......dork.
Well I know what you mean... I too like some things that people in general consider "male", but I try not to care too much about it. I'll do wathever I want to!
I found something disturbing recently. In the Newsweek magaine, there was a brief feature article on teenage magazines for pubescent girls like me. I quote, "Like, totally required reading for Feb. 1998" and then there were six magazines listed fighting for media popularity: "Teen People" (how low can media stink?), "Teen", "YM", "Jump", "Seventeen", and "Twist". Somebody blow my brains out. Even fashion magazines are an excellent way to reach out the majority of American girls, DOES THE WORLD HONESTLY THINK WE GIRLS PSYCHED ABOUT NOTHING BESIDES BOYS, CELEBS, AND ZITS!? They mean nothing, just mere shallow areas, but ISN'T THERE A GODDAMN MAGAZINE out there that covers REAL material? I want politics, real poetry, teary short stories, jaw-dropping real-life anecdotes, EVERYTHING like the NrrdGrrl web site! I don't care if something is considered "girl things" but what matters is what we truly enjoy and appreciate.
I feel the exact same way!! I used to have a subscription for seventeen, but after a while, it was the same thing "how to meet guys" "have flawless skin!" "wear a lot of makeup" and other crap like that. That is NOT what normal teens like me think about day in day out. I want something serious about what's going on in the world, and stuff. These teen magazine editors need to stop filling their work with ditz words that no one can understand, and get a clue that the majority of my day isn't spent in front of a mirror, drooling over guys, or screaming over teeny bopper idiots like hanson. I am 16 years old - old enough to be concerned about what's going on in the world, not sitting back and crying over a spot on my chin. And you know what really ticks me off?? They way these magazines say that you don't have to look like a model to be loved, write a whole article on the topic, and then stick a big 'ol picture of some beautiful skinny little girl with a cute little concerned expression on her face right smack dab in the middle of the page. That is SO hypocritical!!! And so, I just read the newspaper, and chop up my magazines for collages.
Shampoo and Zo0ey, thank you so so so much for saying something that has been on my mind fo sosososososo long. I am sixteen too and during chemistry people always pass around YM. That is the WORST magazine ever! Like I could give a shit about the latest HUNKS on tv or the Co0o0o0olest new makeup. It is all such an insult to our intelligence. We should band together and stay far far away from this trash!
Let me suggest that some of y'all get involved in local politics. I've been involved since I was a teen in the early 70's so I've seen a lot of the really historic stuff go down. Better than that, though, I've watched the world of politics change from the "old boys' network" with its back room manuevering to open territory for everyone who knows her/his stuff.
It is a wonderful thing that now...as a somewhat united group, girls are speaking out for what they want and how they feel about their position in society. Many things have changed in the past years and a lot of man hating has occurred. But in the magazines and attitudes that I see now, feminism isn't about man hating, it is about relieving women of the oppresion which they receive from the media and society in general. Girls are flocking to magazines like Nrrd Grrl because they are so happy to find a refuge...a place where things and people are real! As another teenage girl reading this magazine, I personally challenge each girl who reads this to spread the values of this magazine to another girl. Be real, feel real, spread what is real.
I agree with you, Meredith, but I think the entire "man hating" thing has been completely blown out of proportion by the media and it's one of the biggest obstacles to our "liberation". Along with stereotyping all feminists as lesbians and feeding on some women's homophobia, it is one of the most effective tools used against women.
YEAH!!! Finally someone else who thinks that the Spice Girls trash Girl Power. They hop aroud wearing underwear, or less, and are like, "Yeh girls rock! I just say this because no guy will respect me in my spandex. :( Pout. Pout." It's so annoying! All they sing about is boys, love, and sex. Girls are deeper than that, we've come a long way, baby. Then five anorexic European chicks come along and just stomp all over Women's Lib, the right to vote, being respected, having jobs other than s secratery, teacher, or prostitute. Personally, the Spice Girls can kiss my butt on their way down the tubes.
Am I the only one that thinks the spice girls are chubby and ugly? They don't even look good in those sleazy outfits they wear. But, calling them sluty is hypocritical. and who cares what they look like? that is so not the point...I thought "girl power" had something to do with not following sterotypes. Maybe boys and love are the "girl power" topics they think are important. If so, then better to them, but I think the issues are silly and have nothing to do with feminism.
I HATE THE SPICE GIRLS!!! Have any of you seen the commercials for the movie? In every single clip, it's either "this dress is dry clean only!" or "is my skirt to short?" or how about them bouncing around on stage, with their perfect make up and their sexy clothes, while yelling GIRL POWER! and all that crap? I'm sorry, but we've come so far from the stereotype, finally getting heard, and then 5 chicks with cutesy names comes along and walks all over it with their "really big shoes"? This is a problem!! Their "Girl Power" thing is all about getting fans, that's all!!
If we all hate the Spice Girls so much, where do they sell all their $%@# records? Agghhh.... Can the girls buying their music not see that they're just supporting the forces that keep them down? However, I personally think it's kind of self-defeating to call another woman a slut or a bimbo, for no other reason than, have you ever noticed that there's no way to call a man a slut? If men have lots of sex they're "studs", if women do it, they're "sluts", "bimbos", etc. Women should be held to the same sexual standard as men! (If the Spice Girls aren't sluts, though, they sure don't have any taste!!)
U are right, girls are so very nasty to each other when in fact they should be supporting one another. I often ask myself, why are girls so mean to one another??? I don't have the answer. But I am proud to be a woman, and I am supportive of my 'sisters'...I just wish I could find the same thing in another friend. Being a woman is wonderful and u can do whatever it is that u want to do. Don't let anyone tell u otherwise..and please, be freinds to each other.
I wish I could find friends that don't backstab and support each other always. Right now I'm hanging with this group of girls who always get upset with each other for dumb reasons, and backstab the other person about it for weeks. It's so pointless and very, very, immature. I point it out to them so many times i think they are getting annoyed with me because of it.
ZOOEY!!!! I know a magazine you'll love. It's called Blue Jean. It's target audience is teh same as most teen magazines, but it has MUCH better content. There's a lot of political messages, poetry, real life stuff. You may have to go to a big bookstore (like Barnes and Nobles or Borders) to find it, though, it's not like the supermarkets carry it. And it's pricey ($6 or so) because they don't have any advertisers. I jokingly call it Ms. Junior sometimes (and that's a compliment...I love Ms.)
I agree with a lot that was said here. I too stopped reading the teen magazines. I got tired of people telling me what/how I'm supposed to think. I need to figure myself out, I don't want some one to pretend do it for me. I can't be able to deal with other people the best I can until I figure out how to deal with myself.
Spice Girls are Fat!!!! They cant sing live either, and if you can call that swaying and hand movements dancing then you should get your head checked..pronto.
OK, so the Spice Girls can't sing, but if all you guys here are so into that 'I'm a real women, they're not, and i don't need teen magazines' bollocks, then isn't it a bit hypercritical to go and take the piss out of them? Personally I'd do pretty much anything to have the success they have, and I wouldn't mind looking like them either.
I think that you should all stop slagging off the Spice Girls because they
WELL SAID ANONYMOUS!STOP SLAGGING THE SPICE GIRLS OFF!
um...
firstly,all of you who say the spice girls are crap should check to see how much money they have in their bank accounts and how much money YOU have. i bet there is a huge difference. crap singers, dancers, etc would not have that kind of money, or be able to marry David Beckham.
Okaay, after reading all those message i felt i had to add my own.
sorry, but that is the biggest load of crap that i have ever read!
Karen
I agree with Karen. Considering how young some of you members are, I think you have not yet had the chance to experience real life and therefore are not eligible to be speaking about women's issues with such authority. I am not trying to offend any of you. But consider that at 13, 14 or even 16, you are way too young to fully realize what's out there.
hey
It seems like some people on here are implying that being a stereotypical female is a bad thing. In some ways I fit the stereotype because I like clothes and magazines and I'm clueless about cars and stuff like that. But I don't think it's wrong. I don't feel that society is forcing me to act a certain way. It's not wrong to do what other people are doing if you truly want to do it too. Being a mindless conformist is the bad thing, not wearing mascara because you like it.
Ifa, apparently you didn't understand my message.
Why do female dominated professions get less pay than male dominated professions? Demand or supply? Or maybe women expect/accept less? I'm a librarian. I left one job 'cause they didn't respect me. They hired a guy w/less experience AND PAID HIM MORE!!!!! RIGHT IN THE HEART OF NYC!!
just btw, i'm 15. i love math.... well maybe not, but that has more to do with my math teacher than anything else. (he's a mindless jerk who told me i couldn't get an A. **excuse** me!)(but this isn't s'posed to be just abother bitching session.)
Ifa,
Okay, to Karen especially, who believes "the fight has been won". I'm sorry to sound mean, but obviously you're one of those cute little protected American girls in their white piket fence houses, blah blah blah. I have one thing to say: there is more to life then the US.
ok. here goes. this is supposed to be a site for gals,right? so why the hell are we talking about the SPICE GIRLS?! i don't know about u lot, but i cant stand the u-know-whos and would rather talk about someones like all-saints, who have real standars. they talk about guys yeah. but in all honesty can anyone visiting this site that they have NEVER laughed over clothes or guys? no. they do believe in girl power, but they're not dumb enough 2 jump up and downwith their boobs jigglin too screaming 'look at me! i believe in girl power and i'm not afraid 2 scream about it! and while people might buy the spice girl records, how many times can u listen to them without getting annoyed. the answer is single figures i bet.seeya.
But the Spice Girls are *girls* too! Just like the rest of us, remember? They just wear big shoe's and dress differently cuz they want to. Are you telling me that each and everyone of you girls here dresses in sweat suits every day? I would love to have a spice girl wardrobe!
Hehe...
Sorry, Keri.
Yes, Shampoo... I know that FGM is a horrible practice. But the situation is MUCH more complicated in other countries, especially those suffering a tremendous cultural clash with America. Unfortunately, there is little we can do from here.
no no no... this time you misunderstood *me*. I wasn't asking you because I knew the answer and wanted to make a point. I asked because I want to *know*
Well, I am sorry then, Shampoo, for having misunderstood you...
Gosh! i never realised that FGM was so horrific! the countries where that still happens whether to keep women "second-class citizens" or to prevent them from having sex outside the marriage, are totally wrong. when i put forward my views on feminism a couple of months ago, i was trying to show that the fight for equality in BRITAIN has been won.
Yes, Karen... I guess you know what I mean... I pretty much agree with you. In many countries, the fight has been won. The US is no exception. But only the women who realize the power they have are taking full advantage of it! :-)
I totally agreee with you Karen. I am a guy, and as of late, I have started hearing grrls start talking of reaching for superiority instead of equality. I do not resent feminism, I feel that grrls should have the same rights as guys, but superiority? isn't that exactly what feminists are trying to fight? The superiority of one gender over the other? Is this happening anywhere else in the world besides US?
Firstly, I just wanna say somethin' about the oh-so-raved-about Spice Girls. First of all, YUX! Girls all over are trying to fight against being stereotyped as being "made up of sugar and spice, and everything nice" kinda thing. So I think the name of the group is OUT. Secondly, they are suppose to be all about Girl Power. So what's so girlpowered about being a Baby-ish, Ginger-ish and Posh-ed??
About FGM:
I'm a guy who has just spent the good part of the last hour (hey, I'm bored, okay? :)) just reading over this and other forums - and I feel really guilty now as if I was listening to you guys talk through a closed door or something. Anyway.
Well said Steve, I don't think I could have put it better myself.
Sorry, steve, I don't agree with you. Feminism has been warped over a long period of time so that when someone thinks "feminist" they think almost blond butch chick yelling and screaming her lungs out. That's not how it is anymore. I mean, there's nothing wrong with wanting equality. and maybe in some girls' lives, the fight has been won. But there are many, many, many girls out there who come from different cultures who *don't* get all that freedom. And that just pisses me off. It's not fair that not only do girls have to be treated different then guys, but they have to be treated different then each other!!
To those who think feminism is "dead":
THANK YOU ZOOEY!! I knew you'd be able to word it better then I could!! yay!
Oh, feminism is as simple as that: politics.
Once again, you are oversimplifying feminism.
On a secondary note... after having reread your post, Zooey, I'd like to opiniate that you are describing quite an ideal feminism, not a real one. It would be nice to live in an ideal world too.
You have not a single idea of what my mind is like, and that is clear as daylight.
Keri,
Big Sexy: I love girls, by the way I'm a boy
Wominist,
Gilmoure,
It's called Life, Learning, Vocation. It's a program for adults returning to college after a bit away. The school is a small Liberal Arts school that is really grounded in the idea of a rounded education. Looks like it should be fun. After attending two very large universities (35k+ students each) this is a nice change.
oh shite, im not a feminist but ive tried to read most of your letters anyway. Im only 14 so i guess you could say im clueless bout this stuff. Still yeh it was iteresting, i kinda agree with steve. I hate the spice girls n luv GREEDAY!ummmmm i think weve mostly got equal rights and stuff in the US and here in England, well, im happy with it anyway! Still i know a lot has to be done in places like costa rica and austria where a husband is allowed to divorce his wife if she doesnt do the house work but i think if we interfere it would make it worse. I dont think men and women can ever be equal cos we think differently and we have different strenghts and stuff, weve been different since we are born, my mum didnt make me play with my sisters barbies instead of my brothers cars, i just did and i chose to do ballet and not karate. Anyway this you will think is a load of crap from a kid and it is! Still this is a great site, thx sugar mag for suggeeting it and to amelia!!!!!
I have been away for a while and this is the first chance i have had to have a good read of all the letters - frankly, i am shocked! My arguement throughout the whole of this forum has been that the fight for equality has been won in Britain, Austrailia and most of the American states (remember, I did not say ALL!) The point is, in these countries our fights are petty. We are looking for things that will take time to be introduced such as total equal pay and an absolute equal number of men and women in executive jobs (which can never happen).
By Amelia Wilson (Admin) on Tuesday, November 25, 1997 - 01:41 pm:
*fun*. It seemed like boys got to have all the adventures, to do all the risky stuff, to go after and acheive anything they wanted.
Then, at a certain point I realized that I could do all that stuff too-- that just because nobody encouraged me, or because people made fun of me, it didn't mean it was impossible. You've only got one life to lead, and I didn't plan to spend mine cheering from the sidelines because I was female. That was my wake up call. I only wish it had come when I was younger (I'm 29 now) because there are so many things that I'd like to do over!
By Steph on Tuesday, November 25, 1997 - 06:08 pm:
Got any advice??
By Alicia Ruth on Tuesday, November 25, 1997 - 11:05 pm:
Maybe your high school has shop classes or architechture stuff going on, or there might be a tech school that offers mechanic training near you, if that's what you want to try...and when you're there, don't assume everyone is judging you because you're a girl. If you don't make an issue of it they're less likely to.
By Zooey on Sunday, November 30, 1997 - 01:55 pm:
By Slant on Sunday, November 30, 1997 - 07:24 pm:
By Gretchen ramke on Sunday, December 7, 1997 - 11:40 pm:
By Amelia Wilson (Admin) on Tuesday, December 9, 1997 - 11:31 pm:
Hello???? What can I do except call these people out and say, "Clearly you haven't read anything on this site because this site doesn't say one single thing about men. This is a site about women, for women. It's not about men at all, let about bashing them."
I think a lot of people (women and men both) feel very threatened by anything which seems like it might shake up the status quo. Shit, I know a lot of women who won't call themselves feminists because they're scared that if they do they won't get a date.
By Joie on Wednesday, December 10, 1997 - 03:06 pm:
By Zooey on Thursday, December 11, 1997 - 07:03 pm:
feminism definitely has been mocked and ridiculed at for generations.. even my so-called guy pals render it as 'crap" but they claim to believe in equal rights, not this crap called feminism. HELLO!? you dorks, feminism ain't all bout equal rights, it's much more, more deeper than it!! duh. i get exasperated all the time, i feel your pain, exasperated feminists. well, I won't actually call myself a feminist, not because I am scared of society's reaction, but I feel i have a lot to learn about and am trying to educate myself as much as i can.
By Jill on Sunday, December 14, 1997 - 05:14 pm:
talk about "getting boys" and "dressing to
kill". it's sad the way that everyone thinks
girls are helpless and delicate, or superficial
and snobby. Some girls I know actually believe what people are telling them, and worry more about
finding a cool outfit or getting a boyfriend than
issues that are troubling, like homeless people,
violence, not to mention worldwide issues. But
obviously, these Teen Magazine articles have
been shoved down girls' throats too long...
and except for a select few, most girls are
beginning to act like they aren't as good as
boys, and that unless they don't dress and act
a certain way, they won't fit in.
I wish that somehow girls could see there is
more to life than getting boys and fitting in.
By Suj on Thursday, December 25, 1997 - 01:16 pm:
I want a man who will interact with me as a person NOT as a woman (coz thats where all the stereotypes come in) Relationships are between people.. their MINDS.. and HEARTs.. what hurts me doesnt do so coz I'm female.. it does coz I'm a human being !!!!
Hello !!! We need to keep an eye on the bigger picture people!!!!
By Gretchen on Thursday, December 25, 1997 - 10:32 pm:
By Kat on Sunday, December 28, 1997 - 05:46 pm:
By Ellie on Monday, January 5, 1998 - 02:32 pm:
I always ignored the distinction between what girls and blokes can do. I guess that's why I'm studying engineering, and play soccer, etc. I think it's a bit wierd that people (like my grandmother) are upset by the fact I can't cook though...
By Shimmy on Thursday, January 8, 1998 - 09:57 pm:
hey, but further up there on the board.....why are you referring to age? i'm 14, and that makes me a poser?
By Charlotte on Friday, January 9, 1998 - 11:42 am:
Just something I came to think about: What is it really to "do a Girl thing"? Is it when you do something that society expects a girl to do, or when you do something and happen to be a girl? Should it really matter at all?
By ZoOeY on Monday, January 12, 1998 - 07:51 pm:
By Shampoo on Tuesday, January 13, 1998 - 08:51 pm:
-shampoo
By Kat on Tuesday, January 13, 1998 - 10:02 pm:
By Joy on Tuesday, January 13, 1998 - 10:54 pm:
Start by volunteering to help out a candidate in their campaign office or whatever is needed (and there is usually a lot of different things needed!!) It's really a great feeling to see someone you helped elect doing a good job for your community. Sure, you'll back some losers sometimes, but that's all part of the learning process. You'll meet a whole new group of people, and eventually have some good contacts in high places. My life has continued to be greatly enriched by my long-term involvement, and it's really not a "guy" or "girl" thing. Have fun!
If you need suggestions on how to get started, or with whom, call the county office of the political party you are drawn toward. Be prepared also to find out that the party you thought you agreed with might not be the party you end up with. Again, have fun!
By Meredith on Sunday, January 18, 1998 - 02:29 pm:
By Gretchen on Thursday, January 22, 1998 - 10:46 pm:
By Quinn Duestches on Saturday, January 24, 1998 - 04:07 pm:
By Nikki on Sunday, January 25, 1998 - 01:17 pm:
By Shampoo on Thursday, January 29, 1998 - 12:57 am:
By Shannon Haggard on Tuesday, March 3, 1998 - 09:26 pm:
I also think that another part of feminism is to stop seeing other girls as our enemies... it seems like we're taught to view them as "competition" someone to look better than, or gossip about. Has anyone else noticed this? Girls are *so much* meaner to each other than to anyone else.... and we *are* all in the same boat, aren't we? If anyone agrees with me about this, or, well, disagrees with me, email me at sh0520@broncho.ucok.edu
By Goodgirl on Monday, March 30, 1998 - 11:11 pm:
By Keely on Tuesday, March 31, 1998 - 04:26 pm:
By AprilStarchild on Tuesday, April 14, 1998 - 02:22 pm:
As for the Spice Girls, the person who called them "chunky" is kinda going against her own message. The Spice Girls are no where NEAR fat. They're just not skinny minnies. I personally think that if they have enuf confidence in their bodies to show them off that much, more power to them. When a newspaper called Baby Spice (aka Emma) "chunky Spice" she went to a press conference and said, "that wasn't very nice, I mean we have a lot of fans who are young girls and if someone calls ME fat, they might look in the mirror and think, 'well if SHE'S fat, what does that make ME?'" That's not a direct quote but it's pretty darn close. Besides, their music is good for cleaning house by. *g*
By Anonymous on Friday, April 17, 1998 - 08:38 pm:
Girls/women need to be proud of who we are, and become what we want to be. If we can and if we want to, there is nothing that can hold us back.
As to bodies...we got what we got. If you don't love it ( I can't say I do, I'm working on it) at least like and respect it enough to take care of it. It can be what imprisons our souls, but it doesn't need to be. It is what allows us to act.
By Forbidden_Ash on Sunday, May 3, 1998 - 02:48 pm:
I agree with the peson who said, 'If everyone hates then so much why do they buy the records..humm maybe because they have a hypnotic message in their songs that says..'buy the record....'
Scary.
By Out-for-kicks on Monday, May 4, 1998 - 11:04 am:
By Anonymous on Monday, May 11, 1998 - 04:12 pm:
a, sing better than you
b, dance better than you and
c,they are all better looking than you
SO BEAT THAT !
By Anonymous on Monday, May 11, 1998 - 04:13 pm:
By Trista on Tuesday, May 12, 1998 - 10:36 am:
i don't know if i'm better looking than the spice girls, but i know that i:
a)dance better
b)sing better
c)know better than to become a pawn for any establishment for any reason.
trista
ps. anonymous - it is too obvious when you send messages supporting your own entries too soon.
pps. i'll believe the spice girls can sing when they come into my livingroom and try to belt one out.
By Karen on Tuesday, May 12, 1998 - 06:07 pm:
secondly, those of you who don't do things because of sexual (female) discrimination are sad nobodies who think that it is a real thing. if anything, men are discriminated against because employers are too scared not to give the job to a woman in case they are accused of sexual discrimination. a couple of months ago there was a story in the newspaper about a history teacher who was being sacked because she couldn't play rugby, the real story was that the school had to get rid of a teacher because of the budget and they chose the one teacher that could not direct any extra-ciricular activities, rugby was only one of the many things that she could not do. anyway, the school board was foung guilty of unfair dismissal on the grounds of sexual discrimination and she was awarded loads of money in compensation. this would definately not have happened if it was a male teacher who was fired. so,if you stop doing things because of stereotypical nonsense about the females being the weaker sex and such like, take a reality pill, and get off your ass and do what you damn well please!
love Karen
p.s. would all those sad feminists and people who think that girl power is right (never heard of the power of equality?) jump of their high horse and recognise the real problems of today (war, famine, poverty...)
By C arolyn on Thursday, May 14, 1998 - 09:57 am:
Feminism, and girl power is not about wearing short skirts etc, so the spice girls should get a life. They are only highlighting what women really are in the eyes of men- sexual objects there to be desired, and controlled. If we want to have real girl power then we must use our heads, and act like proper humans, and not flaunt our bodies. Why do you think men want the perfect sixe eight body?, it is because that is what they see all the time. They think with their little members, so we must be one step ahead of them, and use our brains, not our bodies.
Secondly, feminists are not sad people. They are fighting for a cause, and that cause is to end oppression, and the patriarchial heirarchy that men have created. However, this is no easy task, as any of you who read the Bible should know. God- the creator of life is male. He said to Eve in the Garden of Eden- ' Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you' (Genesis 3:17) The bible is advocating sexism!!!
Think about what your mother does in the household, think of the unpaid labour. Did you know that in 70% of the households where there is two workers, the female also has to do the domestic chores? Did you know that the majority of women that are in work have to work in part time, low paid jobs because of thier maternal obligations?.
Women get the raw deal, but flaunting our sexuality will get us nowhere. Show men that we are the ones that should be at the top, and that they have no right to enforce oppression and dominance over us. Stand together, and we will succseed, flag behind and we will be the opressed forever!!!!!
By Karen on Thursday, May 14, 1998 - 12:16 pm:
women are anything but oppressed, and feminists are sad people that have not realised that their fight has been won. admittedly in some places there is sexual discrimination against females but there is also sexual discrimination against men too.
oh, and by the way, the Bible advocates everything! it is ambiguous in it's teachings. ie. the Bible promotes both war and peace while at the same time condemning both war and peace - so, learn the facts Carolyn before you air your views!
love Karen
ps. i have got a sneaking suspiscion that "Carolyn" is my darling big sister who is continuing the arguement that we have had many times!
By Brandy on Monday, May 25, 1998 - 02:06 am:
Consider for a moment--what defines a good person? The size of their bank account, their boobs, their waist? The name of their husband? So far your evidence in defense of the Spice Girls hasn't got me convinced of any particular merit on their part.
As for their bank balance being an indication of their talent, the Spice Girls are just a female reincarnation of The New Kids On The Block, which some of you may remember from eariler this decade. I didn't go in for mass-produced entertainment then and I don't now, but I am in the minority, I fear.
Another question: How much of that money do you suppose they actually get to keep and how much do you suppose goes to their (male) creators? Anyone have percentages? They are making someone awfully rich, I'll bet, with their carefully varied brands of scantily clad sexuality. I just hope for their sakes they aren't as dumb as they look.
And though I dis-agree w/ you on the Spice Girls, (probably a matter of a difference in tastes) I am right there with you on the abuse of certain sex discrimination/harrassment laws designed to be protective. That hurts us just as much by encouraging a victim mentality.
But We Are Not Sad! I for one am PISSED OFF! Come fight the good fight and join in the fun!
By Keridwyn on Thursday, May 28, 1998 - 08:45 pm:
Women in the US are not victims or opressed people. Wake up, girls. I am Brazilian born, and till my mid teen years I lived in that country. You DON'T have a CLUE what real sexism/machoism/misogyny is. Had you known, you'd be more greatful to be American than you can imagine. US women have everything they want to have (with some bonuses). Unfortunately, not all of them take advantage of it.
Feminist work is finished in the US. There is nothing left to do. Under the law, women are essentially equal to men. We have every right as they do. If men still rape, beat and disrespect women, it's not because there aren't laws against those crimes. SOME men will, for a period of time, have difficulties adjusting to equality standards. They can't forget thousand-year-old bigotry overnight. Now it is up to women to show them what they are made of. Vote smart, study hard, become what you will and be the best at it. Political movements are no longer necessary. In fact, they are quite annoying.
Lose the victim status. Get off your pool of self-pity and please let go of your psychological dependence on the guys (and you will find it quite useless to hate them). It'll do wonders for many. Just try. =)
Sincerely, Keridwyn
PS: Spice Girls are a shame to our grandmothers who fought for our rights...
By Ifa on Thursday, June 4, 1998 - 01:31 pm:
Keridwyn: okay, you say that femimism has no place in the US, but you still admit that women get raped, beaten, and disrespected. Femimism can't, and won't, be finished until we're not only but culturally too.
Also, ther are quite a few people here who don't live in the US. I live in Ireland, i used to live in Tanzania. I've seen horrific things happen to women in Tanzania, but that doesn't mean life's perfect here. A lot of girls i know are afraid to speak their minds, because they're afraid that people will notice them, and there are a lot of guys i know who have really wierd ideas about grrls. One guy i'd known for *ages* got it into his head that i shouldn't be into the music i'm into coz i'm a grrl, and i shouldn't have the ambitions i have, and tons of other stuff.
Well, anyway, my point is that feminism still has a place everywhere. k?
ífa
By Laurel on Thursday, June 4, 1998 - 08:23 pm:
By Keridwyn on Thursday, June 4, 1998 - 10:57 pm:
Feminism acts on a political level which is no longer necessary in present day US. Women have indeed achieved the equality status feminists fought for in the past. It is now up to THEM to fully take advantage of that status.
Feminist activity will do nothing about changing the minds of men who don't respect and stereotype. It is up to each woman in this country to show them that we are worthy of their respect. Fighting for the right to vote, to get an education, to enter the military is what feminism is all about. That work is done.
In other words, feminism (as any other political movement) has the power to change laws. But it will never change men.
It is up to individual women now to erase the unfair stereotypes some men refuse to let go of. If each and every woman in this country took full advantage of all the rights our grandmothers did not have, harmful female stereotypes would barely persist. Unfortunately, I seriously do not think that women are doing that.
Take a look at teenage girls. Teen years are the critical point where girls become women. That's when their choices will begin to seriously affect their future. But the statistics sound awful. As many as 40% of teen girls become pregnant, of which a number drops out of school. They begin smoking as early as 13 in their silly naive attitudes, have unprotected sex with multiple partners (perhaps believing that is the meaning of freedom) and are therefore making females the fastest growing number of AIDS and other STD cases in the US. More than ever before are they getting drunk and becoming alcoholics, sigle/unwed mothers at ridiculously young age. Everything important to our fellow feminists of the 60's, such as strong career foundations, full participation in political matters, graduate level education (only available to men not long ago), etc., is apparently what our young girls, women of tomorrow, LEAST worry about. In a less grave level, 15 year olds are much more bothered about their bad hair day than their bad math grade. And when guys harrass them about the ultra-short skirts and navel-deep cleavages, or toy industries start selling Barbies that say "Math is hard!", they go crying to courts about how unfair men are.
Feminism can't fix that. Guess who can?
By Lee on Friday, June 5, 1998 - 12:15 am:
Don't tell me sexism's dead! Men aren't the enemy & can be our ally, but don't even try to feed me that sexism's dead nonsense. It's still alive & very well.
By Ifa on Friday, June 5, 1998 - 06:08 pm:
i don't care about bad hair days. okay, well maybe i do a bit (at, like, 8am)(who doesn't?), but it doesn't spoil my day.
But yeah, i agree with you... in that in *this* country (and a few more) we have equal rights, at least in theory. k?
ífa
By Keridwyn on Sunday, June 7, 1998 - 11:31 am:
Yep. In theory we do. I agree with the term you use, because indeed, much of it is theory right now. But in order for this equality to be put to full use, some women will have to buy a clue.
Math is pretty neat, Ifa... maybe you don't love it now, but you might later. And don't ever let a teacher tell you what you can and can't get for a grade. That is quite an irresponsible teacher.
On the other hand, Lee... I am not sure if you were trying to tell me that sexism is alive, but if you were... then take better time to read my posts. I don't recall ever saying "sexism's dead nonsense". I know it's alive, know it only too well. But that was not the point I was trying to make.
What I said is that by no means are women *victims* or *opressed* in this country. However, this does not imply that there is no sexism. Does anyone disagree?
Keri
By Shampoo on Monday, June 22, 1998 - 04:33 pm:
Okay, so American women are not opressed people. That I agree with totally, some women take things *waaaaay* over the limit, in that everything is an injustice to women, unfair, etc etc. I am half arabian, and I live in Canada. Similar to the US, Canadian girls are treated pretty well. But, coming from an Arabian background, I have to say that there are all sorts of cultures. Some of my friends get to enjoy all the equality stuff that feminists 20 years ago got us, but for me, it's not that easy.
In my families eyes, I have one purpose: get married, shoot out some kids, and cook big dinners. Whenever my family is over, I am in the kitchen, fetching whiskeys and sunflower seeds and this and that for my uncles and cousins. I *really* want to just sit in on one of those political conversations they have, and just... state my oppinion! But I never get to! Don't get me wrong, I'm not playing the victim here or complaining, I like my family, but I want more then my mothers life. *A lot* more, and I'm not sure if my family is going to be supportive in that. Now that I'm thinking about it... aside from my cousin up north, not one of my femalre reletives ever went to college. One of them was *so* smart, she wanted to be something really important I can't remember what. Her entire family moved back to the country I come from, and now she's looking after little kids and being pressured into marrying this one guy, *to carry on the family name and money*. I can't express how much this pisses me off.
Like I said before, there are so many other cultures in the world that aren't modern American/Canadian, and isn't being feminist about taking care of *each other*? Stop complaining about petty stuff like the spice girls, and start doing something about say... female circumcision in some parts of the world! It's time to move on, we don't know how lucky we all are. I don't agree with you Karen and Keridwyn, that sexism is over and the fight has been won, but I do agree that a lot of women like to play the opressed victim part, when they don't really know what it's like to be *very* opressed. Where we live, maybe, but it's time to broaden out!! We're only a fraction of the worlds population of women!!
-shampoo
-ps: i know that a few months ago I totally bashed the spice girls, but i've grown up a little since then, and although i can't stand their music, i don't feel i am one to judge.
By Bliss on Sunday, June 28, 1998 - 09:00 am:
By Shampoo on Sunday, June 28, 1998 - 03:32 pm:
Yah, so they're singing is annoying. So are a lot of bubble gum performers (ie backstreet boys, handson, etc). Some people like it, some people don't. If you dont, then the answer is simple: don't buy the CD, switch the radio station when a song comes on.
"jump up and down with their boobs jigglin too screaming 'look at me!"
So? Uh... isn't that the point of performers? Not to jiggle their boobs, but isn't people looking at them a *good* thing? The Spice Girls are very successful, it must be for a reason.
-shampoo
By Keridwyn on Monday, June 29, 1998 - 07:56 pm:
I said specifically that sexism is indeed alive.. but it seems that most girls read right past that. Oh yes, feminist victims do usually dislike me. I am the "enemy". While they are deep in sorrow though, I am too busy getting to the top. :-)
Sexism... spit on its face and move on. Feminism here will do NOTHING about it. Doesn't mean I don't think it exists.Oh boy. 3rd time.
No more comments though.. I get more misunderstood than understood most of the time in this particular point of view! :)
Keri
By Shampoo on Tuesday, June 30, 1998 - 05:07 pm:
Okay, someone settle this once and for all: Who makes more money? Men or Women? I need real stats here, hard evidence!!
Oh, and what about male and female circumsision? There's a difference in severity, isn't there?
By Keridwyn on Wednesday, July 1, 1998 - 12:24 am:
I am sure men make more money than women in many jobs... but government paid jobs, or any job with a $$ amount fixed prior to hiring, or even those where discrimination of salary is just darn obvious, fear of lawsuits and such is forcing equal pay in many jobs.
There is nothing that can be done about it on a political level. It can only be helped by a different set of values in our culture - a change in harmful stereotyping and standards. I am rather convinced that will not change overnight. Probably the best thing women can do right now is to fight for equality at an individual level rather than as mass or political movement. I know there is much work ahead.
I don't have the solution. But I do strongly believe Feminism (in this country) is not the answer. Furthermore, I also believe there is change to be done in the head of women too, not just men. I had previously left a post about the sad situation of teen girls and how many females are digging their own graves today. I do believe many women are bringing down on themselves so much of the sexism they complain about. Of course... it's just my opinion... no one has to agree.
By Shampoo on Wednesday, July 1, 1998 - 02:28 am:
so forget about sexism for just a second, and tell me: who makes more money? men or women? and what's the percentage? anyone know the stats?
and anyone have a background in medicine or knows a lot about the topic of circumsision? Is male circumsision as bad as female? I need stats on this one, too. Are the risks of male as high as in female? How do both affect the people's futures? Any websites comparing the two?
I'm trying to win an argument (otherwise known as "intelligent conversation" with someone.). Thanks!
-shampoo
By Keridwyn on Thursday, July 2, 1998 - 12:54 am:
Actually, I have done a lot of reading about FGM... yes, it is extremely harmful, whereas the male circumcision is not; 3 types of circumcision are done to something like 3 million girls (usually 8 or 9 y.o.) a year (gee, I don't remember that one for sure!! Could be wrong... ) in parts of Africa and South Asia mainly. The most severe type of FGM is known as infibulation, which consists of removing the small labia and clitoris of the girl, prior to stitching closed most of the vagina, leaving only an opening enough for mentrual blood and urine to pass.
Many die of infection. The sanitary conditions are poor, and there is no such a thing as anesthesia. The practice is perfomed by skilled or unskilled people, most not doctors (or anyone with any kind of education in health). The instrument used may be a knife, razor blade, and I have read that even broken glass has been used (!!). They are reused over and over again, without any type of sterelization process in between.
The reasons upheld for the practice are NOT of muslim origin, or any other religion for that matter. The Islamic faith has been often wrongly blamed as the initiator of the practice. But evidence has shown that the areas of the world where FGM is performed can be Christian, Islamic, and even Jewish, and apparently FGM was rooted in these areas prior to the arrival of the religion.
Cultural beliefs indicate a dozen reasons for the practice of FGM. It has been shown that in these countries, women will be unmarriable if not circumcised, because the clitoris is seen as a dangerous organ capable of poisoning the male during sexual intercourse. Another belief is that if the clitoris is not removed from girls, they will grow into penises. Yet another widespread idea is that a woman's sexuality cannot be tamed without circumcision; they believe that by removing the clitoris, women are more likely to remain chaste prior to marriage and faithful to their husbands. In countries where the practice has been abolished or non-existent, FGM is believed to be another way of keeping women in a low, second class, semi-human status, since in the FGM cultures the clitoris is also perceived as an organ of "power" (like the penis it would become). Thus they are ritually removing that power from women.
Sadly, a poll taken in one country (I think it was Sudan) indicated that 82% of women believed circumcision is RIGHT. It is then that all hell breaks loose when UN or UNICEF tries to do anything about it. In these cultures, women are taught to believe that they are doing the right thing. That's where the biggest mistake happens by women of the West who would like to make a difference. Many don't realize that too many women in these cultures actually support their practices. In countries where FGM was banned, practice goes underground and continues, supported by ignorant religious brainwash victims, both men and women.
We can only hope to manage to educate these people before we strike them politically, because they will react violently, and will see it as an attack to their culture. There must be a world-wide education level about the health issues and human rights of the women in these countries.
Other countries in the world where FGM is still performed are Sudan, Nigeria, Ethiopia. So far it has been banned in Kenya, Egypt, and a few others.
By Karen on Monday, July 6, 1998 - 11:43 am:
Shampoo, i am not a "cute little American girl" in her "white picket fenced house" - anything but! i am a mature SCOTTISH female who has experienced everything life has deigned to throw at me. unfortunatly i can't speak about the fight for equality in America but i know that in Britain, the fight was won years ago. we have had a female prime minister, we currently have quite a few women in the Cabinet, and we have countless females in very respective jobs.
it is both stupid and unfair to complain that women have less rights than men because it is completely untrue. men are being discriminated against today, and it is about time that someone spoke of their rights instead of continuing a stupid fight against them. all personal experiences of discrimination have to be fought individually, as on a whole, it just doesn't exist anymore.
shampoo, i' m sorry that your family discriminate against you because of your culture, but you must fight for right to live your own life. this is the twentieth century, and we all have a right to live as we please (as long as it is legal! :-)
got to go now! see ya
love Karen
By Keridwyn on Tuesday, July 7, 1998 - 12:08 pm:
Unfortunately, I do realize this is not the case in too many other countries, mostly 3rd world. FGM is one of many horrors spread out in these places.
If anyone is interested in helping ban FGM, it seems to be possible through some organizations presented in the Internet. I have no URL's to give, unfortunately. However, I think it will be easy to find sites regarding the issue by means of any search engine -- Yahoo, Hotbot, etc. Type Female Genital Mutilation (or just FGM) there and you should find something.
Keri
By Puck on Wednesday, July 15, 1998 - 09:35 pm:
By Jacqueline on Friday, July 17, 1998 - 05:42 am:
Ok. And I can't stand the way girls who speaks their mind are being bitched about by the guys. Why can't they just accept us girls as equals?
By Ultraviolet on Friday, July 17, 1998 - 09:29 pm:
I've heard that in some cases, girls can barely walk up staircases it hurts so much. Also, once the girl gets married, the vagina is reopened so the couple can have sex.
By Steve on Tuesday, July 28, 1998 - 05:07 am:
FGM - totally horrific. Anyone who does it or supports it should be dragged out on the road and shot (or at least have their beliefs sorted out by brute force :) ! ) Actually, male circumcision is not in my eyes less forgivable - what's the point? (I'm not circumsised and every myth I've heard about circumcision I've proved to myself as being a load of crap!) Anyway, straying from the point.
I also totally agree with Puck and Karen about feminism and equality. I have a strangely interesting perspective on this which I suppose would seem nuts.
In a way, don't ask me how, I'm opposed to feminism. Not opposed of the beliefs, but of actual feminism. I believe strongely for its objectives however.. I'm opposed to it because I feel it is wrong BUT because of society's upbringing (girls are weaker than guys, guys are expected to do more and girls less, blah blah blah -- I could rattle on about it for hours but you grrls know the scenario already) it has come about out of necessity to unite those females that are taking a stand to society's expectations.
To those sorts of people, good on you. I believe/hope one day there won't be a need for feminists wasting their time on such things but instead people living their lives to the max and all that sort of stuff.
Steve
By Puck on Monday, August 3, 1998 - 04:26 pm:
By Shampoo on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 03:40 am:
Look. There's more to the world then the US, Canada, and England/Scotland (where most nrrdgrrls are from). Women are not treated equally in other countries!! So what we need to do is stop complaining about "he's paid more then me" and start worrying about our fellow women who are getting raped and beaten up during wars in countries that aren't doing as well as we are.
It's time to think a little farther, and start doing stuff.
Karen: oh yah, everything's happy in england. there's more to the world then england!! we got our power and stuff, it's time to put it to use like keridwyn said. we can do so much for girls in other parts of the world, or in other cultures right where we live! The way I see it is: Canada, US, Britian etc have made it. that's 3 down, another 200 something countries to go!!
Steve: why do you think feminism is wrong? And why do you think it's a waste of time? Our parents and grandparents spent a lot of time to get us here. According to some here, the fight has been won. does that mean just to abandon it all together? can't we still believe in what's been done and still be called a feminist? Democrats are still called democrats once they've won the election, why can't women who believe in equality still be called feminists even after it's accomplished?
Puck: there are some weird people out there. Superiority isn't what this is about, just some really angry radicals who think they know what they're talking about.
By ZoOeY on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 08:39 am:
Let me take some real pauses. I haven't been in this particular forum for a while and frankly, I am very appalled at the heat in this room.
How can you say that feminism has no place in the U.S.? You can't look at it as one spectrum of culture. It's not American. It's global. I don't care if you come from an affluent upper-class family with a good name and a palatial mansion on a secluded island. I don't care if you come from a third-rate country where running water is considered an elegant luxury and you've never tasted chocolate before.
You can't just stop at the privileges women have in U.S.A. You have to go beyond that, not grossly oversimplify feminism in the terms of politics. There are inextricate concerns: racism, classism, sexual orientations, disability, fat oppression, labor wages, reproductive rights, environment rights, military training, religions, rape occurrences, the fashion industry, single-sexed/co-ed schools, human rights, the list goes on. Feminism is not only about "girl power", it's also about people power. Matriarchy is another issue that has no positive connotations with feminism. And fuck the law. The law is supposed to protect us but as a leftist, I don't necessarily agree that the laws actually apply to every single individual of Amerikkka. Let's just forget about the law. Let's worry about this thang called r.e.a.l.i.t.y.
Nerve-racking and explicitly grotestque it is, I know too many girls who are sexual abuse survivors. Having this distressing piece of knowledge in my mind tells me that rape is a common form of oppressive practice men take out on women. That does not sound right to me because we need to teach both genders to be good human beings and deconstruct all the traditional gender roles and rethink everything. For every individual, I believe being content and well is the absolute important goal for oneself.
True, there may be more frank and explicit gender discrimination in other countries, but that doesn't mean U.S. feminists can get involved and take a stab about it.
As long as I can remember, I have always wanted to be a human rights activist globally. I'm very concerned about child prostitution in third-rate countries like Burma and Thailand. They are economically devastated and girls are forced to find work to support their families because boys are being drafted and shipped off to be soldiers. Many girls are tricked into prostitution and they're also fiscally exploitated. They only earn less than ten dollars and they can't even make a quarter of that much if they worked in the fields all day and all night. And there must be multiple labor workers who barely make enough money to get a bowl of decent rice while the big, fat, gluttony boss who owns Disneyland sleeps on a floating donut in a olympic-size pool with a margarita on his side.
I am not a sad person. Sadness is an essential emotion that is weaved into humanity itself and feminism is not about sadness. I'm an angry working middle-class-queer-colored-disabled punk and I have a lot of rage and passion burning in me because I have seen the actual brutality of life itself and I'm not going to mope around in the house. I'm taking action.
On the Spice girls soapbox: They are a commercialized product that is more like an entertainment-like joke rather than an all female band. They're playing themselves off as marketable commodities. Women are NOT marketable commodities but rather real human beings with real minds and real feelings. My angle towards the Spice Girls is that they are dangerous for our younger generations of females because the whole messge of 'girl power' is totally oversimplified and trite and over-misused and trivialized and commercialized and materialized. It's much deeper than that. Their songs consist shallow topics when real hardcore punk bands like Tribe 8 that screams about mastectomy and racism and Propagandhi that opposes capitalism and Bikini Kill resisted youth gender oppression. Basically, to me, the Spice Girls is a complete joke and I have yet to read a good interview about their thoughts and their roles in the feminist movement.
Don't tell me that we are too young to realize what's out there. You can never be too young. For instance, my friend Katie was raped by another GIRL when she was barely 8 years old and now she gets her ass poked up by repulsive male freshmen when she drinks from water fountains. I'm 17, not 14, 15, 16, thankyouverymuch. I have always been conscious of what kind of space I live in.
Oh, rapists have nothing to do with adjusting to equality standards. It's mental. They're repressed and emotionally disturbed characters with screwed-up childhoods and for them, rape is about venting and having the highter authority, but that doesn't necessarily apply to gender roles. They could be bitter and angry about their abusive fathers who whipped them with wenches and leather belts. Don't simplify that rapists are bigoted. There's a bigger thang going on here.
I don't have any pity. I'm not entitled to any pity. I am not dependent, psychologically. What the hell does pity have to do with feminism? I do not hate guys. That is NOT feminism. You are shooting way off topic.
There is no straightforward and direct, simple solution to solve all those wacky dilemmas in this galaxy. Nobody said feminism could fix everything. It takes time and there has to be other movements involved if you want the world to be fixed up nice and suave. But fast-paced, political feminist organizations like NOW, National Organization of Women, which happens to be the largest organization in this country, fight to oppose amendments and bills that will cut off minors' reproductive rights. They also concentrate on day care and welfare issues. And hell no, women don't go to courts like crybabies just because some toy industry sell senseless barbie dolls. They're taking potential risks here for themselves and for the world itself and they actually fight in courts. But fighting through courts is just one way of suppressing gender discrimination. I print multiple 'zines and put flyers in fashion magazines in big-time chain bookstores to spread propaganda against warped body images for instance.
Genital Mutilation: It is very hard for anyone to rethink life material they have been taught. Fear is a powerful weapon and people do lie on surverys so you can't believe everything you read or hear. You need a critical eye. There are some determined aspired women who fight against gential mutilation even they have to suffer mass torture in lunatic asylums. Feminism alone cannot solve this complicated and twisted ethical problem because political and radical feminists are juggling other global and huge issues at stake. People pick their certain causes for what they truly believe in and sometimes it's very difficult to have little/major efforts change something.
On the Bible: I don't take the Bible literally nor do I believe in it because I'm a Wiccan and in the Wicca religion, we don't have this thang called the Bible because our personal belief system abide by multiple structures of goddesses and gods equally.
Have you experienced sexual harassment or gender discrimination personally? There are three-dimensional sides to stories of work discrimination but you have to realize that some men do not behave professionally and their attitudes can have profound impact on the female co-workers who have to be secure in their working environments. Don't jump to conclusions just because you read this or that lawssuit case.
Excuse me, I do live my life to its extremity. Feminism is a permanent and prominent part of my life I definitely will treasure and cherish. I don't sit on my butt all day long watching soap operas or giggling in a short vinyl skirt at some big suburban mall with a bunch of hot school hunks. I run around writing snail mail to girls who are survivors of self-mutilation, rape, sexual abuse, family alcoholism, various degrees of depression, and all that glob. I print flyers that encourage girls to stop buying and reading fashion magazines and I write long letters to Calvin Klein and Tommy Hilfiger about their unrealistic misrepresentations of female models in their advertisements. I have compiled countless essays which I share with everybody. I'm a practicing vegetarian and I know I'm making a difference by not buying leather or fur in the shops and saving two birds a day and not contributing to the ozone layer's problem. Those activities take real efforts. I'd like to see you try do one of those things because it can be very exhausting. It is easier to live in a bubble of bliss and ignorance rather than face and see the way reality is in practical eyes. Oh yeah, I go to band concerts that show riotgrrrl bands on weekend nights, so don't tell me how to live my life to the fullest and that I am wasting my time.
Life ain't a dress rehearsal.
By Shampoo on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 07:36 pm:
By Keridwyn on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 08:24 pm:
Zooey, sweetheart, if every feminist was like you, perhaps I wouldn't mind being one. But the women in this country who carry the title are not anything quite independent and strong.
Feminism's job in the US is pretty much done. Wanna be a feminist in the middle east? Go ahead and try (I wish it was this simple). Good luck to you.
By ZoOeY on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 08:40 pm:
It is not about politics only.
There's social and economic issues.
And let's not forget about our younger
generations of blossoming girls. Are
you labeling them co-dependent and feeble?
I would hate to have such a negative and
one-sided mind like you.
By Keri on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 08:59 pm:
Zooey's post reminds me only how intricate and entangling our views can become... and how they have no end. We are arguing in different languages (I'd say... mine too often doesn't come across), but interestingly, the common idea among us all in here is indeed the well being of all humanity, in which women's status has suffered perculiar injustice in history. I guess we forget that sometimes.
Ker
By Keri on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 09:07 pm:
As for blossoming generations, I see many throwing their own future away. They sometimes are feeble and co-dependent. This whole life, with all the challenges it tosses on us, is but a matter of choices, and they are making their own.
Feminism inside women's heart probably means more than a few paragraphs can describe. Feminism in the outside world carries none of that. Yes, it is too bad, but it is true.
By Wominist on Wednesday, August 5, 1998 - 10:42 pm:
I agreed with what you said (somewhere)about women needing to take feminism ideals into their own lives. One of the major feminist slogans is "THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL" so what we say/do outside our talking about feminism does count.
Please don't think I totally don't understand anything your trying to say because a)that's kind of patronizing and b)I'm not on the "I'm a victim" bandwagon. And I think that bandwagon is getting smaller not larger.
You do have to admit that there are cultural pressures in our society that hinder our sense of empowerment, our sexuality and other things.
I'm only 17, I don't have the life experience you do but PLEASE don't take my MS magazine away from me because if it is me who is burning with the recognition of the capabilities I have as a woman, it was feminism who set the fire.
Has anyone read In Search of Our Mothers Gardens by Alice Walker? She gives these four awsome definitions of womanism. I'll share them when I get the book again (unless someone beats me to it)
By Big sexy on Tuesday, August 25, 1998 - 04:33 am:
By Gilmoure on Tuesday, August 25, 1998 - 05:28 pm:
I'll be reading 'Search' in a week or two for this class. Glancing through it, it looks pretty good. Here are the definitions:
Womanist 1. from Womanish. (Opp. of "girlish," i.e., frivolous, irresponsible, not serious.) A black feminist or feminist of color. From the black folk expression of mothers to female children, "You acting womanish," i.e., like a woman. Usually referring to outrageous, audacious, courageous or willful behavior. Wanting to know more and in greater depth than is considered "good" for one.Interested in grown-up doings. Acting grown up. Being grown up. Interchangeable with another black folk expression: "You trying to be grown." Responsible. In charge. Serious.
2. Also: A woman who loves other women, sexually and/or nonsexually. Appreciates and prefers women's culture, women's emotional flexibility (values tears as natural counter-balance of laughter), and women's strength. Sometimes loves individual men, sexually and/or nonsexually. Committed to survival and wholeness of entire people, male and female. Not a separatist, except periodically, for health. Traditionally universalist, as in: "Mama, why are we brown, pink, and yellow, and our cousins are white, beige, and black?" Ans.: "Well, you know the colored race is just like a flower garden, with every color flower represented." Traditionally capable, as in: "Mama, I'm walking to Canada and I'm taking you and a bunch of other slaves with me." Reply: "It wouldn't be the first time."
3. Loves music. Loves dance. Loves the moon. Loves the Spirit. Loves love and food and roundness. Loves struggle. Loves the Folk. Loves herself. Regardless.
4. Womanist is to feminist as purple is to lavender.
Sorry for any typos. What do ya'll think?
G
By Wominist on Tuesday, August 25, 1998 - 10:09 pm:
Above and beyond the call of duty. Thank-you very much. What class are you taking?
By Gilmoure on Wednesday, August 26, 1998 - 08:38 am:
I really like these definitions because it gives one a framework to work with in life. I can't seem to find one geared towards men since I was in Boy Scouts. That could be a problem with US society. Men don't have any standards and are kinda' floundering. Talk with you later,
G
By Anonymous on Tuesday, September 8, 1998 - 04:18 pm:
By Karen on Thursday, September 17, 1998 - 11:31 am:
We should fight for those who still suffer in reality - those who are raped but can't prosecute the men because governments see it as being the man's right. Those who are not given the option to go to school and get a job that carries some independence. And those women who cry themselves to sleep because they know that noone will help them gain some self-respect.
Those women are the ones who need help, and, no offence Amelia, but all the sad people on this page who say that feminism in developed countries still has the right to continue, should take a reality pill, and start fighting for something that is important. All these lassies are just looking at the world through rose-coloured glasses, they only see the things that can make their own selfish lives that little bit better.
I hope i wasn't too mean to anyone as i do not plan to be, but such a huge amount of women in this world are suffering the worst kind of inequality possible. They are living in a world that we lived in 200 years ago, and if all these lassies would use the energy they used to write these letters to campaign for equality throughout the world, it might not take 200 years for the unfortunate women to gain the respect they deserve.
all my love,
Karen