The Struggle of Smart grrls in today's society


NrrdGrrl! Discussion Forum: Just Plain Talk: The Struggle of Smart grrls in today's society
By
Que_ on Wednesday, March 18, 1998 - 05:54 pm:

Why is it so darn difficult to be smart in our world? Has anyone ever thought that maybe it would have been so much easier to have been born ignorant, innocent, and blissful, and stay that way? I guess it's because smart people are in the minority (or are they?) and so like with any other minority it is often times difficult.

Thoughts?

--Que


By Alexis on Wednesday, March 18, 1998 - 08:34 pm:

I was thinking about this very topic last night; I asked myself (and my girlfriend),"If you could choose either to be happy or to be intelligent every single day for the rest of your life, which would you choose?" I immediately answered that I would rather have assured intelligence every day instead of happiness. Having intelligence doesn't necessarily mean that I could never be happy, but it would mean that I could always be wise and make the best possible decisions. My girlfriend immediately said that she was dissapointed in me and that she would rather have happiness every day; she said, "...so what you are saying is that as long as you were smart and intelligent, you wouldn't care if you were beat every day by an abusive husband?" "Ahhh..."I answered," If I was an intelligent woman I could get away from an abusive husband, no?" Silent for a moment, she finally agreed. So you see, I am thankful to have been blessed with intelligence because it enables my happiness and my fulfillment.



By Anonymous on Wednesday, March 18, 1998 - 08:45 pm:

It's a lot easier to be less intelligent if you're pretty. I've seen girls in my classes get grades changed for crying and pouting. What kind of equal playing field is that? I want to earn everything I do, from my crappy times in running and swimming to my grades. Happiness is different if you're intelligent that not, because it takes more, like music or writing or a passion, where others don't need that.


By Shampoo on Thursday, March 19, 1998 - 01:38 am:

I get really good grades in school, and I like to think that my classmates respect me for that. I'm not really pretty, or anything, but I am intelligent, think on my own, use common sense and know what's best for me. I have never wished to be any less intelligent then I am right now, it's all I have! And I want to be someone really important in the future. I'm not sure what yet, but someone who makes a lot of money doing important things, like discovering a cure for AIDS. I don't want to sell myself short of what I know I can do, and so I don't act like a ditz in class. I always answer. I agree with anonymous about that crying/pouting thing. Where are those girls going to be when they're fired for incompetence at a *job*?? Cry and whine? Shame on them for not working harder to improve their grades *fairly*. The least they can do is accept what they get, and work harder next time.

"Smart" girls can take care of them selves and not have to depend on a man to provide for them. If we have a good career and our husbands leave us, we'll be able to provide for ourselves and for our children. Especially in todays world where it's so hard to find a job, education is so important.

Yes, me, seemingly stupid shampoo actually has a brain. ^_^


By Que_ on Thursday, March 19, 1998 - 07:04 pm:

Shampoo, stop putting yourself down, no one *ever* thought you were stupid!~ unless you were kidding about that, in which case I say "haha, funny."

You guys, I totally agree with you all on all counts. We will definitely make it off better in life being smart,,,, but for now, in highschool, it really sucks. I mean, does anyone have any IDEa how hard it is to find a guy at my school who isn't threatened because I skipped a grade, or resents me because I did? I mean, it's just something I did in the past and people should know better than to think I'm any different than them just because of that. Anyways. It's really hard having that reputation, like you're smart and therefore you don't like to have fun. I mean, *whatever*. I like to be a goof off just like everyone else, and I *am* with my friends, like, the ones who know that I can still be cool even though I may be a bit heavy into the academic shtuff. It's just tough, that's all I'm saying. Anyone sympathize?

This is obviously a sensitve topic with me, so you'll all have to be patient with me if I start whining :)

---Que


By Que_ on Thursday, March 19, 1998 - 07:08 pm:

YOu know, Anonymous, you are so right! About the thing where intelligent people need a *passion* to make them happy. I realize that now that you said it...whoever you are, you ARE intelligent!!!


By Eliste on Thursday, March 19, 1998 - 10:16 pm:

Que, I totally sypathisize. My problem is that I have this urge to hide my intelligence. I guess it comes from having a brother who was learning disabled and had ADD who would guffaw and laugh at my good grades. I was almost ashamed to bring home good grades all through my school years at home, because inevitably my brother would compare and call me all sorts of names and stuff. "coner" that's the one I hated the most.

I do have some good news though! There ARE men out there that like us smart women! (smile) granted they're not always easy to find and some of them arent worth the effort but there are some out there that actually think a smart woman is sexy. Problem is you have to look to the older men. They have their own set of pros and cons though...

oh well! I've got my mind and that's really all I need. With a good mind you can do anything and go anywhere. And as for the pretty ones who whine and toss they're curls. They'll get their due. They'll end up pregnant in the home of some idiotic football player while we're out doing something we know can make a difference. *smile* (My personal favorite hell I like to damn them to when they irritate me heheheheh)


By Titania on Thursday, March 19, 1998 - 10:59 pm:

Que, I feel your pain about the skipping a grade part...but the reactions to me have been rather different. Yes some people really do resent me, but there are also those who pose a very differnt alienation. These people alienate me by not associating with me because they think i am too good to hang out with them! Its horrible! Usually when they get to know me they find things to be different.
When you are intelligent, it seems like you speak almost a different language. People often don't understand your thought patterns and make fun of you because of that. Also there are those who are at school simply to socialize and resent anyone who attempts to learn. If you ask to many questions you are sure to have words behind your back!
WHY IS LACK OF RESPECT FOR THE INTELLIGENT SO PREVALENT??? WE ARE THE FUTURE AND THE SUSTAINERS OF THE WORLD!!!


By Que_ on Friday, March 20, 1998 - 12:54 pm:

Gah, I know, what's WRONG with society?

I've actually had people jokingly say to me "hey, we thought you were too good for our grade, why are you talking to us?" Of course these are people who know that I'm not that hard to tlak to, so they are joking...but still, I'm sure other non-understanding people honestly think that I htink I'm too good for their grade or something.

You know, if I saw someone skip a grade, first I'd want to do it myself, and then I'd be asking them all kinds of questions. I really doubt I would be closed-minded about it, which is why it surprises me when so many people are.

Even my best friend at the time was negative about it... she said "Are you sure you wanna do this?" with that docile female submissive timid look on her face, and very non-supportive. Needless to say, I've found friends who support my decisions, but i still can't believe *even my best friend* would say something lie that....

Que


By Que_ on Friday, March 20, 1998 - 01:00 pm:

Eliste-

Thanks for that message, I feel pretty good now :)

Another problem with uys who like smart girls is that they tend to us up on a pedestal, and then the fall from there is pretty tough when they find out you're not perfect. I just went through that, so it's still pretty fresh in my mind. I guess I'll just have to wait for a guy who doesn't consider me "smart" and different from anyone else, but someone who sees me as being on the level with him and stimulates his mind. I'm not sure that I expained that as well as how it was in my head, but it goes something like that...

Que


By Lya on Saturday, March 21, 1998 - 12:00 am:

Another thing about being smart is that you are not always optimistic. I've been labeled (as ever famous Daria would put it) a "big unhappiness freak." Everyone thinks I am weird and satanic because I like to wear black (it's a dramatic color and it goes with nearly everything!) My mother tells me I am a "cynic"...I agree. It is very hard to be smart and optimistic at the same time....half of you is saying "hey, it could happen" and the other is saying "no way are you gonna win the lottery". It just doesn't work. :)


By ZoOeY on Saturday, March 21, 1998 - 02:43 am:

You simply have to love and worship the curse of intelligence. Too many times, I have resent this paradoxical gift because I can see the hypocritical nature of humanity and this perspective makes me realize how selfish and superficial my friends can be. This accursed knowledge claws away my mind.
But I'd rather possess intelligence than be a pretty frou-frou girl. It is a gift. We can either learn how to use our powers we were blessed with at birth (or magically developed them as sweet rewards) to flaunt off our pride on the behalf of the entire female race and axe ancient stereotypes we've been plagued with since Eve OR we can just simply let our intelligence go waste and rust to spare ourselves from abject misery, torture, and discrimination.
As a repressed intellectual, I get angry, frustrated, and exasperated for not being taken seriously by many. When one does acknowledge my intelligence, I am usually met with cynicism or "harmless" mockery. People act like they have never met a smart girl before in their entire pathetic lives and this attitude irriates me. Gender does not have to do anything with intelligence! Although the scientific fact that males are generally better in mathematics and science while females lean towards the field of literature and languages. It bothers me but girls are gradually engaging themselves into once male-dominated professions and perhaps in the 21st century, educational reform will actually and drastically improve gender equality in basic education.
***So, gurls, we're on a roll! Hallelujah to brain power!


By Eliste on Saturday, March 21, 1998 - 05:22 pm:

actually lol I"d prefer to be both smart and beautiful. I know perhaps that's being a traitor to the cause but oh well. But I do appreciate my intelligence.
The part about being ostracized because of your intelligence... that I understand so well. My friends always call my shy and quiet. Honest, I'm not. I'm just once again afraid of being "too smart" to socialize with them. My friends on the net would tell you I"m definitely not shy but those in real life hardly hear a peep out of me.
as for the men... (smile) I've been lucky I guess. I've never had one put me up and expect me to be perfect, fortunately. But I've met quite a few who aspouse that intelligence makes you sexy and they hang on your every word... which is good... and bad... I think its like everything else. Some like it, some dont. But the good ones are those that'll take you for who you are. Period. You just have to weed through a lot of frogs before you find one that's all...


By Keely on Saturday, March 21, 1998 - 06:09 pm:

Wow! After reading everyone's thoughts on the subject of the problems faced by smart girls i'm totally frustrated about the issue.
I consider myself to be a fairly intellegent person and get good grades.
anyway---a list of my top "hates" about teachers, and being smart

1) teachers who are intimadated by smart students. It's hard for me to explain how this works and how students who know more about a certain subject become subject to being ignored and mocked by teachers in front of the class. i have found this especially true the often sexist male teachers who hate to be corrected by female students. I currently have such a teacher and take every opportunity to prove him wrong - well used to until i noticed that a friend of mine was getting better marks than me on work that was identical to mine - conincidence?

2) sexist teachers who believe that you are only w/your boyfreind for math help.
I actually ran into this situation. my boyfreind, at that time, is a math genius and we had this extremely sexist teacher who one day made the comment to me that my freinds are only my freinds because they can help me get a good math mark.

3) the friends who think they are smarter than you because they are in a specialized program and your not - great friends eh?

4) those people who skip class, or come to class high, or never study, and always get good grades

5)girls, (and people) with no general knowledge yet they flip their hair and bat their eyes and do a mediocure amount of work and teachers think they are some sort of genius. but outside of the class room they know nothing. ask them about the situation in rwanda or the fight to ban the seal hunt or any current event and they just giggle and flip their hair. (try it it's fun)

6) people who think it's cool to be dumb. you know, the kid you laughs when they can't get the answer and can't understand why learning is math, or how to write a essay, or what the industrial revolution was is important.


I guess i sorta strayed from pressures and prejudices against smart girls, anyway...

later,
keely


By Anonymous on Tuesday, March 24, 1998 - 09:51 pm:

It's hard to be smart, wah, wah, wah. Just be true to who you really are and people will notice. It's better than whining because you think that "people think you are too good for them." Maybe you should look inside and see if it is you who think so highly of yourself.

Signed,

You don't have to skip a grade to be a genious


By Eliste on Tuesday, March 24, 1998 - 11:28 pm:

you have a point Anon...
inside IS what counts... its just sometimes hard when folks cant see that... we can all use a b*tch session once in a while you know....


By Que_ on Wednesday, March 25, 1998 - 03:19 pm:

Anonymous, nobody ever said you hafta skip a grade to be a genius, and I never said that I was one. In fact, i think I'm not. It was my choice to skip a grade, and it had nothing to do with me thinking I was better than anyone. I did it because i wanted to hurry up and get into the real world instead of hanging around my sheltered town longer than I have to. I do not now, nor have I ever thought that I was better than anyone for any reason.

It's very hard to be myself when I get reactions from people who are mad at me for skipping a grade, or think that I did it to show off, and that's the only reason I posted in the first place. I was wondering if anyone else was going through. Skipping a grade really isn't a big deal. I mean, it's just something I did in the past. I only whine, *wah, wah, wah* when other people can't accept it as something *in the past* or are judgmental about it. It's a part of me, a part of my past, and to be true to myself I have to accept that i did it, and move on. So do other people.

But, Anonymous- that advice "be true to yourself" is definitely solid and I will go with it.


By Frustrated on Wednesday, March 25, 1998 - 09:52 pm:

I don't know about you girls, but in my school, (which is all girls and private) if you don't get perfect grades you are a loser. Students, faculty and the administration all demostrate this additude. But worst is the students. As if girls didn't have enough to be catty about, now we have grades. Ironically, in this supposedly girl power environment, we are constantly being told and shown what we haven't achieved and what we can't achieve. Newspaper articles seem to bombard us with "new studies", "new proof", that boys do better on the SATs, that boys are better at math, etc, etc. Meanwhile we are all grade grubbers, we all study constantly, we all push, we all cram, and for what?? It makes me sick. Is there a better way, or do we all have to be numbers and ranks?


By Eliste on Thursday, March 26, 1998 - 02:43 am:

well... in a way I should just shut up about ranking and stuff like that. You see my high school was so competitive OVERALL that they did away with ranks, valedictorians, and all sorts of other things. It was VERY competitive to say the least. And we heard about how the women were supposed to do worse than the men, but I found the reverse to be true. There was a system by which you could take courses at the college across the street. A bunch of us ended up taking math courses there out senior year because we'd gone through the school's curriculum. In that math class we had a good 5 girls and only 2 guys. Surprising? I dont know but that's the way it worked for us. I personally hold that neither race is mentally superior because I know plenty of men AND women who are right up there at the top. I think we women should just accept the fact that society doesnt EXPECT us to live up to the men yet we can and do every day. We accept ourselves and what we can and cannot do and it wont matter what ranks and studies say. We'll be doing fine.


By MelanieL on Monday, March 30, 1998 - 11:00 pm:

I think I can see why it can be hard both to be smart, and to struggle with wondering if you are smart. I was in advanced placement classes in high school, yet I dropped out in 11th grade. I was so bored with class that I couldn't stand it. I hated people telling me what to learn. (Do I regret it now that I'm 21? YES.) Now I am in college and in honors classes, but I drop a class each term because I think I'm not smart enough for it. I am thought of as the smart person in my family because I am in college, and NOT ONE other person my age is. (or has been.) But I do not feel smart. I feel stupid most of the time. I want to write, I am a writer, but I do not want my writing to be some assignment. Will I ever believe that I am smart? I have no idea. I really admire people who get good grades in school, because I never did my work or went to class in high school-I spent most of my time in Thespians singing and dancing. So I failed a lot of classes! I never felt that I fit in with the "smart" people, even thought I really really wanted to. Maybe that is how the people who ridicule you feel(because you have skipped a grade.) It's a little intimidating, and we wish we were there.


By Keely on Tuesday, March 31, 1998 - 04:13 pm:

Who has the right to define smart anyway? Just because you do well in school does not nesscesarily mean your a genius. it seems pointless to hold up a measuring tape and tell people that if they can't reach a ceratin level then they are not smart and therefore are stupid. I have a great friend who does very poorly at school, in fact he fails almost every subject except for art. But last week we were having coffee when we started to talk about the orbit of the earth, because he figured out how the earth could have four corners and orbit. He knew all this physics stuff which i was totally blown away with. it went right over my head. He said it's because in school they teach only numbers.
Anyway, i guess what i'm pointing out is that academic intellegence applied to school work is not the only form of intellegence.


By DaNa on Wednesday, April 1, 1998 - 03:33 pm:

I feel the same way that all of you do. I get very good grades also, and I don't want to apologize for it. The other over-achieving(i hate that word, but what else can I say) girls in my class are mostly sweet, ultra-feminine, All-American girls, with immaculately ironed Gap clothing. Now, I am not saying their is anything wrong with that, it's just...well, that is not me. I mean it's like if you are smart, you have to make up for it with feminine charm so that boys will go out with you and you won't threaten anyone. Well, I don't want to be charming. And the worst thing is that all my teachers think these girls are brilliant, when they are really just good-listeners and test-takers. So, no matter how hard I work, I will always be looked as "different," just because I am opinionated and independant(and happen to speak out a little too often for a girl). I am tired of having to downgrade myself so I can appeal to them. I am sorry I rambled on so in on the board, it's jus, well...I am pretty pissed at it all and it seems as if you guys would understand.


By Que_ on Wednesday, April 1, 1998 - 10:05 pm:

I definitely understand DaNa...unfotunately I am afraid I'm one of those clean-cut girls you hate so much...but reading your post made me realize something that never occurred to me before...

I act and dress like a clean-cut person for the guys, not because it's a part of me or because I'm trying to express myself. I'm just trying not to threaten anyone I guess. But that sounds incredibly stuck-up, you know? Like "Oh, I'm so threatening." But that's not how I mean it! I just.... well, I know what you mean, it's just so hard for most people to be themselves and not dumb-down or downgrade themselves. Unfortunately I am one of those people...not proud of it either. It's especially bad because of skipping a grade which can tend to intimidate people. I wish it just wouldn't. Yeah, DaNa, yeah, definitely I understand what you are saying.


By Titania on Tuesday, April 7, 1998 - 08:43 pm:

i have a minor gripe...and i have a feeling i am going to get jumped all over for this, but here goes anyway...it really annoys me when people say they are so smart or act like they are...and they flunk out of school...to me, being smart is not just the actual book knowledge or even pure capability, but the application and integration thereof also... you can know everything in the world, but if you don't use it. then what good are you to the well being of society...are we not all here as extensions of one another...to compliment each others weaknesses and to promote the overall well being of society by who we are...if you aren't doing anything to make a positive impact on society...what is the use in existance?
:::getting off soapbox:::
sorry about my speech, but it is just something i have been thinking about...my friend just flunked out of MIT...because he refused to apply his genius...
i would love to here what the rest of you all think...please don't get mad at me if you don't agree...it is just how i feel and i have no problems with people who feel differently...i want to see the black white and grey to everything...please respond.


By Que_ on Tuesday, April 7, 1998 - 10:51 pm:

I know what you mean. I sort of agree. I am very angry because there's this guy that I'vek nown for years, a friend of my sister's, and he just won't go to college. But he's brilliant, I mean, he memorizes facts form trivial pursuit for fun. He said "I can't learn anything in college that I can't learn from reading a book." What do you think about that? I personally think the experience of college is as much the learning experience as the actualy classes are. By the way, he also lives with his parents, and is 20 :)


By Eliste on Wednesday, April 8, 1998 - 11:12 pm:

I think what gets me about those smart people that drop out or leave school is that I knw they can be so much more! Many of them I freely admit are smarter than I am and it kills me to see someone waste a talent I would die for! I dont know...


By Que_ on Friday, April 10, 1998 - 01:54 pm:

I know, it makes me really mad. I can't believe he would waste his talent like this. Itseems really sad.

L


By Melanie152hotmail.com on Sunday, April 19, 1998 - 07:28 am:

i agree it is important for girls to be intelligent, and it is absolutely disgusting that some females try to "play dumb" as if that would attract any kind of WORTHY guy.
HOWEVER, it is even more important to THINK FOR YOURSELF.
good grades and mathematical knowledge are one thing, but an inquisitive mind and the ability to form your own opinions and RAGE against whoever tries to stop you, because you're just a little girlie.. that is WAY more important and if i had to choose between the two, well, there would be no choice.
and sorry to say it.. but i learned that little lesson from a man.


By Carrie Ann on Sunday, April 19, 1998 - 02:51 pm:

Why is someone "wasting their talent" if they won't go to college? I am a successful entrepreneur, and I have a HS diploma, no college. I have 2 months of trade school, and that was years ago.
College is not for everyone, Ms. QUE.
And nowadays, a 4 year degree isn't exactly enough to get ahead.
Respect your friend's decision, and support him, if you are a real friend.

And so what if he still lives home? You are so judgmental. Pathetic!!!


By Que_ on Sunday, April 19, 1998 - 10:08 pm:

So what if he still lives at home? Well, it's just that he's going nowhere fast. I mean, he has no motivation to do anything with his life but stay in the same place. Why is this bad? Because instead of being selfish and staying at home harboring his intelligence for himself only, he could be out htere in the world using it to have an effect on someone or something. It's a waste of a gift which has been given to him, that's why it's a shame. He's been given something that many people would die to have, and he does not appreciate it. That's what I meant.

I'm sorry if I sounded judgmental. I've formed an opinion, so shoot me.


By Titania on Sunday, April 19, 1998 - 10:17 pm:

Go QUE!!! Anyone that is so lazy as not to contribute anything to society and has the capabilities to do so is basically worthless! Going no where fast almost cancels out all of a person's intelligence, and proves they aren't really as smart as they thought they were...


By HtH on Sunday, April 19, 1998 - 11:14 pm:

The problem is, that in our society, education and thinking is not valued. If we were to value individual thought (as a socieity) then we would not be condemned and ostrasized for being intelligent and female in school, and we would not be fed the same crap year after year...sections of the high school ciruculum would not be taken out because people found them too 'difficult'...I just learned that in the british columbia elementary school cirriculum, they are no longer teaching fractions! (too many students didn't 'get it') I think that that is only an indication that fractions should be taught earlier, not deleted...
(it is nice to have found a place on the net where intelligent people reside)


By Shampoo on Monday, April 20, 1998 - 12:31 am:

They're not teaching fractions in BC? I learned fractions when I was in elementary school, and that was only a few years ago!! And my brother is learning it right now, and he's in grade 4.

Any of you remember Saved by the Bell? All the smart people wore pocket protectors and big-ass glasses and went around snorting. It's the stereotype, I think. Teens wanna be cool, and we think that being cool is being rebellious and not caring, and getting good grades mean you care. (that may not be exactly it, but best i can do without a lot of time).

And then there's that whole "guys like ditsy blonde chicks", which I think is pretty true, at least for the majority of guys.

But you know what? Don't listen to them, cuz in a few years, they'll be pumping gas, and you (we) will be in great jobs we love!! You gotta look ahead.


By Eliste on Monday, April 20, 1998 - 01:05 am:

well Shampoo, I dont know if the ditsy blonde is what guys want or not but I can tell you that none of the ones who I know that DO want that are worth trying to attract. Why waste yourself on a guy who can only quote football stats and thinks a good time is riding up and down in his car down the one main street? maybe its just me but I dont find the ones who like ditsiness at all someone I'd like to date/marry. I'd take someone who could appreciate me over a droolingly gorgeous guy any day. (besides what fun would it be to have to explain parts of the paper to a guy every morning? let me tell you.. no fun at all)


By Shampoo on Tuesday, April 21, 1998 - 04:58 pm:

Que - My mom skipped 1 1/2 grades when she was in high school. She said it was a mistake because she ended up getting lower grades, and graduated at 16 - all she ended up doing was going to work and getting married earlier. She always told me to take my time and stop growing old so fast (and then she threatens to put me in a shoe box so i wont get any bigger).

Eliste - It just bugs me when I work so hard at something (school) and guys go for the girls who give no effort at all, just giggle like idiots. And a lot of the smart guys I know go for girls like that, I have no clue why.

Carrie Ann - In today's world, especially for young people, you can't get anywhere without college. There is such a lack of jobs out there that a high school diploma wont get you farthur then the corner store. If God gave you the gift of a great brain, then use it. Go to university and find the cure for AIDS or something!! Dont sit at home polluting your mind with soap operas and talk shows.

DaNa - It's the oppinionated loud girls like us who are actually going to get somewhere. I'm not afraid to say anything in class, and often do. Believe it or not, teachers actually repect that trait, and so do a lot of other people who sit quietly, nod and smile when the teacher tells you something, instead of questioning everything. At least, most teachers do.

Sorry, haven't been here in a while, gotta catch up!!


By Rain-sky-blue on Wednesday, April 22, 1998 - 03:47 pm:

I know what lots of ya mean. I guess I'm smart, people say I am, and I guess I understand a lot. But...sometimes I feel like if I were really smart, I would know, I would feel smart. I don't feel smart usually. I don't really have anything to compare to, though.
Sometimes I have a hard time speaking up in class. My voice usually isn't that loud, and sometimes I feel weird about saying something, but I'm getting better.
Something good for ya smart ladies...children inherit a lot of their intelligence from their mother. I think boys get it just from the mother, and girls from both parents. Pretty cool...
I think the point of life is to do with it what no one else could do. It is pretty selfish not to use a talent that could help you or other people.
I think that's it...


By Keely on Wednesday, April 22, 1998 - 04:12 pm:

A couple days ago i was in drama class and we were doing an activity where you had to write your greatest fear on a card. The cards were randomly handed out and the person who got your card had to give some advice on how to overcome the fear. What shocked me, (besides the huge number of people who were afraid of insects)was one girls response to the fear of never doing anything important with your life. She simply said "Don't worry about it, you already have done something important with your life. everyone has. We just might not know it."

What shocked me was that i find this girl to be a complete ditz. As far as i am concerned she is a giggly-hair flipping-flirty-dumb-girl who shows no self-confidence or self-esteem. So for me to hear her say something so touching made me realize that although i may get better grades and know more about what's happening in the world today i would never be able to think of an answer so touching. i almost cried when she said it. At that moment she struck me as a briliant person.

I guess what i am rambling on about is that many of us seem to assume that these ditzy girls really only ever thik about guys, clothing, and laugh at how poorly they do in school. But i realized that she did have a small shrewd of intellect.

:)


By Eliste on Thursday, April 23, 1998 - 06:18 pm:

Your best asset is truly your mind. Real MEN realise this and like girls for it. During high school and (I think) through most of college too the guys you'll meet are still boys, still dont have that insight. They're looking for easy, ones that would go well with the hood ornament, not ones they can have a discussion with. When they do though get that realisation, it will be worth having kept your mind going and will be worth the wait. Those ditzes are doomed to marry ditzes like themselves and populate the world with more ditzes. We intelligent ones, on the other hand, will probably have a fulfilling life more than those who think life is about hairspray and designer clothes could ever conceive of. Its just the damn wait that gets ya...


By Tammy Smith on Saturday, April 25, 1998 - 09:11 pm:

What exactly are we talking about here? Book smarts? common sense? everyday logic? Most of these messages have a tone of bitterness about them. Perhaps the key is to find a happy medium between being that hair flipping ditzy girl and the intelligent confident woman.


By Tammy Smith on Saturday, April 25, 1998 - 10:03 pm:

I would like to change "intelligent confident woman" to "intelligent cocky woman."


By Eliste on Sunday, April 26, 1998 - 02:33 pm:

Tammy, I think what you first said, "intelligent confident woman," is what we'd all like to be (or perhaps is what we'd like to think we are). You are correct. A lot of different kinds of "smart" can be seen in the messages above. My concern (and I really do not mean to sound elitist) is that actually many of the messages above have been written by women who would like to be smart and are complaining of those who are (example Keely complaining of those who do not have to study who still get good grades). If we want the world to be smarter we need to learn to make use of what gifts and skills we have, whether that is intelligence, artistic talent, athletic talent, or (heaven help me) even fashion sense. We all have different abilities and its time we stopped resenting that the world needs people smarter than us. I grew up in a town full of some of the world's top scientists, Los Alamos. I have always been aware that I am not completely of the genius calibar. It is easy to think highly of yourself, harder to accept others as your betters. I challenge all of you, including myself, to try ad accept that. We'll all be happier for it, believe me.


By Shampoo on Thursday, April 30, 1998 - 04:35 am:

Too late, been there, tried that, didn't work. (excepting others as your betters). One of my greatest friends is *so* smart. She does so well in everything, and last year when we were in the same school, she was always so much smarter then me. (actually, our grades were pretty much similar, except she actually studied and i just goofed off.) She was so incredibly sweet and I'm really happy for her, and all, but whenever I was around her I felt really stupid and immature, it didn't do a heck of a lot for my self esteem whenever she was at least .1% higher then me on something. *always always* higher. I didn't wanna compete, and we didn't really, but that was always my goal - if it wasn't better then my friend, then it wasn't good enough. I know that it wasn't the right kinda attitude to have, but it is *so* hard when you try your best on something, and always come out second no matter what you do. I always pretended I was okay with it, i mean I'm the girl who always comes late to class and talks to much, I got what I deserved I guess. But it really really hurt. She was better then me at *everything*. One of the reasons we were such good friends is that we had the same extra-curricular activities, mostly band. we both played the same instrument, and in my oppinion, we were at about the same level, me a little bit higher. but, i still came in second to her at the award ceremonies. I STILL came in second. It doesn't matter that I was leaving the school and going to a new one. It doesn't matter that I got all the solo's. It didn't matter, cuz *she* got the award, and *I* got runner up. Not only that, but she's involved in like, 5 band courses, and she came out with like 4 awards. I got 2 runner up ones. RUNNER UP!! ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS!!!! I COULD NEVER COME IN FIRST!!!

Wow, that felt really good to get that out. No one knew how I felt about that, I always kept it hidden behind a smile. It probably sounds really stupid, cuz coming in second isn't bad at all, but after a whole year of it, I just couldn't handle it anymore. I felt so bad about myself for being too *dumb* and too *irresponsible* to get higher then her, and then I felt bad for being such a terrible friend for wanting to get higher then her instead of just accepting it.

Now I'm in my new school and I'm at the top of some of my classes, and maybe a few spaces down on some of them, but that doesn't bother me at all. School is fun for me now, I do my best and get my grades and am happy with them. Before there was always a level that I could never reach, and it pissed the hell outta me. Now I'm a happy girl, and it's not because i'm on top, it's because I've stopped caring so much. We're still friends, me and her, and I'm so happy that she's doing great.

You probably all think I'm some kinda jealous freak or something, but I'm really not. That's just what happened, I couldn't help it. Remind me sometime to tell you about how much band sucks for me now. Getting all this outta my system feels so awesome...

-Shampoo


By Anonymous on Thursday, April 30, 1998 - 01:45 pm:

Hey Shampoo? And your point is....what?


By Keely on Thursday, April 30, 1998 - 04:42 pm:

Shampoo- i can really relate. No matter what it is i have always felt that there is someone better than me at it. I used to be really competitive with marks... But it started to piss off some of my friends when i would flaunt having a higher mark or be jealous if they did.
Anyway...

Oh and to ANONYMOUS- i just have to say that your comment was really rude!! I was under the impression that this was a place were we can talk about all our problems and experiences and not be judged. Even you didn't think Shampoo's post had a point i did. And i can relate very well...


By Shampoo on Thursday, April 30, 1998 - 08:21 pm:

Thank you, KEELY!!

Anonymous, that was really mean. Eliste said that we should all accept some people as better then us, and I said that I had tried that and that it didn't work. I think my post had a big point, and obviously, other people agree. Whoever you are, how would you like it if next time you opened up and said something to complete strangers that not even your best friends knew about, and someone went and said something *rude* like that to you?

Keely, thanks for being able to relate. I really appreciate it.


By Eliste on Thursday, April 30, 1998 - 11:06 pm:

actually I too relate Shampoo. I just find that when I CAN overcome that then not only do I perform better but I'm happier with myself and what I do. It's an ideal I have rather than a truth I live by.


By Opopanax on Monday, May 4, 1998 - 10:05 pm:

I think it's great that there's a place like this where smart girls can support each other in speaking out, speaking up, and doing whatever it is we need to do to fulfill our dreams. But I have to say the "us/them" attitudes as well as the elitist "smart people who don't got to college are wasting thier gift" philosophy is totally annoying.

I'm not saying this is always true, but I've found that when I feel most alienated from the world it has more to do with my own spiralling negative thoughts than the reality of what other people are thinking about me. I know that I project a lot of my fears onto other people who often have exactly the opposite opinion of me when I actually take the time to reach and and find out what they're about. I think they think a certain way about me, because I formulate certain judgements, etc. about them. We are all human, we all have insecurities, dreams, pains--we're each given a distinct set of gifts, each valid and right in our own way, we can't compare and say one is better than the other--it's all good. People who seem to have it easy on the outside may be really struggling inside. I really liked the story about the "ditsy blonde" who offered a touching, and wise, bit of advice. If you don't want people to judge you by what they see on the outside, stop doing it to others.

In terms of dropping out of college, or not going to college, or whatever--some intelligent people thrive in academia, some intelligent people thrive in an arena more loosely structured. The truth is some of the most valuable and inspirational contributors to society went to college and some of the most valuable and inspiration contributors to society never had a shred of it. You can't judge what is best for someone else, and as smart women we also need to be tolerant of people that choose to do things differently than we do. There is an enormous difference between being book smart and being wise--a wise person decides to do what is best for him or herself (even if its dropping out of school) regardless of what other people are doing or thinking.
Who cares if you get a degree and have a great job if you are totally miserable? I have a college degree and swear I learn some of the most profound, useful things from people I meet by chance on the bus --stuff I never learned in college.

Only by being true to yourself can you truly benefit the world.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'm sure lots will disagree.



By Magwlootsa on Sunday, May 10, 1998 - 05:56 am:

Just do what you want!!!!!!!


By Que_ on Tuesday, May 12, 1998 - 08:12 pm:

I don't know....life is all so relative, and I have so much trouble finding meaning in it....some people seem to care about how much money they make (and those people are probably more interesting in going to college than others...*probably*). If you don't care about making and influence in the world, or "getting ahead", or providing well for your kids...then I suppose you wouldn't really be bothered by not getting a degree so you can have a better paying job. For instance, my sister loves creative writing, and although both of my parents are pushing her to find a career with a better salary, she is persistent to do what she is sure will make her happy.
I think that's awesome. And she's brilliant...in so many ways.

Opopinax: yeah, I think that life experience is the single most intelligence-enriching experience. And if going to college helps you experience more than you had before,( academically, socially, or emotionally), then it has already increased your life experience and therefore made you more wise.

You're right, for some people college is beneficial, and for some it isn't. But if you simply don't even *try it* because you're sure you could learn the same stuff from books, then I think you're being closed-minded. And you've gotta agree, being closed-minded is not a way to be wise.


By Laurel on Thursday, May 14, 1998 - 09:26 pm:

I think being smart is confusing. But then I don't know if I really am smart. I get good grades but it takes a lot of stress and hard work. The thing is that some people think I'm a nerd and meanwhile other people wonder what's wrong with me when I don't get an A.


By Anonymous on Saturday, May 16, 1998 - 03:53 am:

I'm glad to see that young women still have faith that it's possible for females to be intelligent and successful and to still be attractive to males. Unfortunately, many of the young women posting messages here sound like me when I was a girl. I'm a female, in my late twenties, who has had to deal with the difficulties of being exceptionally intelligent in a man's world. When I was in High School, I thought things would be better when I got to college. When I got to college, and found that things were no better there (professors favored male students, and guys did not want to date a girl who was more intelligent than they were), I thought I would find "people like me" when I ventured into the real world.

Well, I'm sorry to say that what I've discovered is that our society does not value intelligence in females. In the work world, females can have decent jobs, but rarely (if ever) do females earn the same amount of money as males do in the same job. Despite the fact that my work has been consistently superior to that of my male counterparts, I have always had to accept less pay. I have also had to discount my fees to get work. I am self-employed and have often seen companies offer to pay males more to do a job that I was bidding on. More than once the male they hired failed to complete the job, and they needed someone to come in and "fix" the problem. Even though they wanted my help, they would only hire me to fix the problem if I was willing to work for less than what they had agreed to pay the male who was unable to complete the work to their satisfaction. I, for one, am very frustrated with being judged soley by Society's preconceived notions about what it means to be female. I would like to be judged as an individual, and to have my work evaluated for what it is, not for who the client (or employer) thinks I am.

As if this weren't enough, I have yet to find those males some of you have alluded to in your statements about there being guys who like smart women. I suppose it depends on what you mean by smart. My experience has been that a guy will tolerate a smart woman as long as she is not smarter than he is. For me, this has meant relationships where I have felt that I had to hide my intelligence so that my boyfriend could feel superior. Needless to say, this did not work out. Neither of us was happy.

And, one other thing I've observed is that above all, males judge females strictly by physical appearance. I think that males are attracted to females solely based on physical attributes. Then, males convince themselves that the female they've chosen has all sorts of redeeming qualities such as: great personality, intelligence, sense of humor, etc. Meanwhile, the rest of us, looking at the same woman, see a distinct absence of those qualities. But what we do see, is that she is attractive by Society's standards. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that when males say that they like "intelligent" women what they're really referring to is the fact that they attribute "smartness" to the women they find attractive.

In my opinion, as long as Society regards females as sex objects, females will never be perceived as intelligent. This is self-evident by the definition of the word "object". An object has no will. It cannot act; but can only be acted upon. As females, we should reject this notion of the objectified woman, because only then can we be regarded as intelligent, independent beings.

Still, I'm glad to see some optimism among the younger women in this forum. I have written extensively on the subject of intelligence and the role of women in society, and I hope to contribute to making the world a place where all people (regardless of race or gender) can realize their full potential. I hope that some of you will also work towards creating a brighter future for women.


By Craig on Saturday, May 16, 1998 - 09:56 am:

I think you are being a bit sweeping in your judgement of "males". Yes, there are men that prize physical appearance above everything, but are these the men that you'd be interested in, anyway?

There are men who like intelligence and opinions. When I talk to someone I want to learn something. I want to think. I want to hear well-reasoned opinions.

It's tough to find someone. Society (not "males) trains women to be agreeable and quiet. I can't stand it. My worst dating experiences have been with women who agree with anything and refuse to say what they really think and how they really feel. It drives me nut.

I don't want to spend time with someone who agrees with everything I say. What am I getting out of that?


By Anonymous on Sunday, June 14, 1998 - 04:13 pm:

I was talking to my friend, Em, who was so depressed after seeing her crush chasing a total ditz, then came here. I agree with Craig that some guys are interested in more than your appearance, but you don't find many in grade eight!


By Keridwyn on Monday, June 15, 1998 - 08:16 pm:

Yes... there are men who do like intelligent women. I dismiss the idea that being smart and intelligent is hard for women. It is actually the most rewarding thing to rub in the face of people with ridiculous ideas about "social standards" and women.

Being female and being intellingent is a tremendous bliss. Although barriers are put on our way, I think some ladies should overcome their sensitivity about how men look at them and think of them, and rather focus on themselves.

If he can't stand your intelligence, ladies, he AIN'T WORTH IT!


By Shampoo on Thursday, June 18, 1998 - 10:24 pm:

My family laughs at me when I talk about my oppinions and use big words and stuff. THAT PISSES ME OFF!!


By Anonymous on Sunday, June 21, 1998 - 02:18 pm:

Shampoo, I know how you feel! Everyone dismisses my opinion too. My friend tease me when I use big words, they call me a talking dictionary


By LauraW on Monday, June 22, 1998 - 06:41 pm:

I just wanted to say that my husband not only was attracted to my intelligence, he thinks that I am hot stuff as a result. What keridwyn said was RIGHT ON! If he can't stand your brains, let his silly ass fly.
I hope you all find men, real MEN, as fab as my hubbie! Guys in high school were afraid of my intelligence, called me walking dictionary...but the good guys just don't behave that way.


By LauraW on Monday, June 22, 1998 - 06:43 pm:

Hey...I left out the possibility of finding a female soulmate who appreciates brains...of course, that may not be as difficult. Thoughts?
--LauraW


By Olivia on Monday, June 22, 1998 - 09:32 pm:

Hi all! Just wanted to add a few words of my own to a few of the above messages.

Everyone should pay attention to how intelligent people are portrayed by the media. This applies to all forms of intelligence. Artists (musicians, writers, painters, etc.) are almost portrayed as "weird." Academians are always the subject of jokes. Anyone who excels at anything always seems to be the "dork." This is a problem!! Notice these instances in movies, tv, magazines, etc. Point out the inaccuracy to your friends or whoever will listen--you can change the way people look at things!

College is not for everyone, and those of you who think that people who don't attend college are losers, I'm guessing haven't been to college because a degree is not always as valuable as you all are thinking. Granted, if someone is being a "lazy bum" (questionable wording, but you understand...) that is one thing, but there are plenty of people who never attended college who contribute very much to this world.

THERE ARE PLENTY OF BOYS WHO APPRECIATE INTELLIGENT GIRLS!!! Men are not the enemy, and chances are, if you look for an intelligent boy (I'm speaking of an innate kind of intelligence, not necessarily an academic one--hard to explain, but you know the type--kind, good, contribute to the world types) ANYWAY, if you look for one of these boys/men, you might have better luck. They might be considered shy/weird/quiet...WHATEVER...
get to know that guy--you might be surprised.
Too often girls are doing exactly what they accuse guys of doing (i.e. looking for a good-looking popular type or some other type because of reasons other than love and respect) I know I am rambling here, but if girls would be fair, give respect, require respect--they would find the right one--be it guy or girl--a lot faster! GUYS ARE NOT ALL PIGS! REEVALUATE YOUR MOTIVATION FOR DATING THE KIND OF GUYS YOU ARE DATING!

Yes I am long-winded. Love!!


By Anonymous on Tuesday, June 23, 1998 - 06:04 pm:

Laura,

I think that having a mental connection with another female is the best thing. I don't think its possible to have as intense a mental connection with a man because strong emotions and a physical relationship interfere. That of course can apply to women if one or both are gay but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about hetero mind connection. Ha ha that sounds kind-of funny. Anyways, I think everyone thinks about a platonic soulmate, that would be the ultimate. I think I'd take a female soulmate over a husband but than I am one of those people who would rather be understood than loved.


By Oirio on Thursday, June 25, 1998 - 03:29 pm:

Anon,
you are'nt alone !!To be understood is a definate must !!!Is'nt telepathy great ???it can be horrid,like when you've had an arguement with yer best pal.Then as you go to sleep her taughts go through yer mind.Spooky i know,but it was dead cool !!!Sorry about changeing the topic

Oirio


By Anonymous on Saturday, July 4, 1998 - 10:54 pm:

Oirio,
Can't say I've ever had telepethy! I've never been *that* tight with anyone. One day maybe...


By Karen on Wednesday, July 8, 1998 - 07:44 am:

I have only ever been telepathic with my twin sister - during our Biology exam, I might add. Unfortunatly no answers came through, just the time and some moans and groans at the difficulty of the paper!

To get back to the subject of intelligence, I think we all need both happiness and a good bit of intelligence. I am in sixth year at school (unfortunatly this is in Scotland so I don't know what grade that is, but it is my... thirteenth year at school - woah!) and I have always been relatively intelligent. However, apart from a bit of bullying a couple of times, this never caused any problems. My peers respected me and knew that if they needed any help with anything, I was there.

I plan to go to University next year, and although I am not the Brains of Britain, I have a good chance of going. The point is, anybody can achieve their goals of college or university, if they work hard enough! Therefore, intelligence is not a necessity but ambition is.

luv Kaz

ps. this is so amazing talking to all you people from America!


By Punkgrrl on Wednesday, July 8, 1998 - 11:04 pm:

ok. i agree with so many opinions here, it's great!!! i wish i could have conversations like these face to face. anyway, i have always gotten good grades, but i have never been "dedicated". my mom always yells at me for not "putting any effort into my schoolwork". i'm sorry. i just can't get into the school scene. am i just lazy?????

during math, i stare out the window and imagine i'm traveling, living life, actually doing something and not trapped in this room in my desk taking notes.

my dream is to be a musician, and travel with my band. be free!!! i have wanted to do this for at least 5 years (and i'm only 14). i love music, and i wish i was free!!!

i acknowledge that school works for many people, and i have soooooo much respect for people that can dedicate themselves to their homework, and study every day... in fact, i sometimes wish that i was like that. but i'm not. i end up writing songs when i should be doing my history, drawing when my science paper is due tomorrow... i don't know.

i am like the freak of my classes. i just can't mold myself into the ideal portrait of a student. i just want someone that understands, who thinks *deep thoughts*. ugh, this all sounds so terrible. please don't attack me, it's hard to put my feelings in words.

well, only... 3 more grades to go... and then i will be forced into college by my parents... :(

well, thanks for listening to my bitching. i needed that!!!!

peace, love, and empathy

punkgrrl


By Wominist on Thursday, July 9, 1998 - 07:34 pm:

Punkgrrl,

You sound like someone I know, ummm me. And we both rule grrrl! I'm eighteen and instead of doing my assignments I write short stories or poetry or just sit and think. I pull off pretty good grades anyway but the comment on my report card is always "capable of better" Here's the deal: School seems like a bunch of cheesy assignments that you're way beyond and everyone else seems so into it that it makes you dissapointed with humanity. Am I right? The cool thing is is when you get into higher grades you actually get *challenged* And freedom doesn't lay outside but inside...inside your heart and mind. So at your desk you don't feel like a prisioner. And it's always great to have that "damn I'll be glad when this is over and I'm on the road with my bend" feeling. It makes you work for it. In highschool and in college you'll have teachers that inspire you (I hope) I once had a teacher who took me out in the hall and said: "If you ever want to leave class and just go sit somewhere and write, ask me and I'll let you" I was blown away! Hang in there.


By Keridwyn on Friday, July 10, 1998 - 01:01 pm:

You really think you're so beyond school work, wominist??

You will have to rethink when you leave K-12, if you want anything above that. Unless you are also beyond those "stupid degrees" as well.


By Wominist on Saturday, July 11, 1998 - 01:10 pm:

Keridwyn,

I don't know if I even want to address someone who thinks women in Western society aren't victims (ever been to a battered woman's shelter, read the eating disorder stats?) and thinks feminism is finished here. But...

Yes, I do think I'm more than a highschool diploma and a University degree, though I plan to get both.

"Numbers add up to nothing" and I'm not letting a grade or a pay stub dictate, completely, who I am. What's inside my head is worth more than what "they" can put on paper. I think school is important, but I think looking out the window thinking about life instead of doing some cut and paste assignment like everyone else, will help you more in the long run.


By Punkgrrl on Saturday, July 11, 1998 - 10:51 pm:

Wominist-

thank you!!! you totally understand how i feel! i gotta keep going, even though i don't quite see why we all have to do the same (boring)
assignments. i just can't pay attention to "algebra" when there is so much going on in the world now. Maybe I should.

Keridwyn... i see where you're coming from, i just can't relate to it :). sorry!!! maybe, in 20 years, when i look back, i'll wish i had worked harder in school. i don't think so, but you never know.

well, wominist, thank you for showing me that there is one person in the world who feels the same way as me.
:)

Punkgrrl


By Snowpaws on Thursday, July 16, 1998 - 09:11 pm:

Que, cool topic to start, you rule!
:o)


By Anonymous on Saturday, July 25, 1998 - 02:47 pm:

Looks like you have much growing up to do, womanist... :))


By Keridwyn on Saturday, July 25, 1998 - 02:49 pm:

Womanist,

I wouldn't want to address someone who thinks women are victims either.

Enjoy the pity pool. I'm too busy getting ahead of you.


By Keri on Saturday, July 25, 1998 - 02:51 pm:

That wasn't anonymous.. that was me.. grr.. :))


By Wominist on Tuesday, July 28, 1998 - 02:30 pm:

Keri,

Don't we all have a lot of growing up to do? You attach such a stigma to the word "victim" I wasn't thinking of a helpless complainer. More like someone who is served an injustice they don't deserve. If Western women do manage to escape the physical abuse of our society (rape, sexual harrassment) we never escape the psychological damage society does to us about our appearence, our capabilities, what we should be doing with our life etc. We can fight those messages by educating and freeing ourselves from a male dominated (yes sadly it still is) society. If women aren't victims, we're sure as hell survivors of something....


By Shampoo on Wednesday, July 29, 1998 - 02:23 am:

wominist, i totally respect what you say and all, but i think your comment to keridwyn was kinda rude. the whole discussion about whether women are victims took place in a different forum, and that was a while ago. It's okay to disagree with someone on one topic and still *talk* to them, you can't *not* talk to them because they have different beliefs. Don't bring up stuff from before to use against her, it's not nice.


By Keridwyn on Friday, July 31, 1998 - 09:33 pm:

Hm, thank you Shampoo.

Womanist, when I say that women are not victims because indeed, they are capable of getting themselves anywhere they want, I mean exactly what I see everyday. I am in the Navy (waiting to go Active until February.. tsk), I am a martial artist and a college engineering student. That implies that I spend 3/4 of my time surrounded by men, some of whose attitude is quite sexist, you can bet. Yet with all the implications of potential abuse, I have managed a decent and rewarding life. There is no doubt in my mind that if I can do it, any other woman can -- I am not gifted in any way, I don't come from a particularly favorable situation. In fact, you can say it was quite the opposite at times.

My experience and that of many other women I know has proved the point too many times. Women are STRONG. You are implying we are not; you are admitting defeat. I refuse to take such status. Feeling victimized will cause symptoms of sitting on your ass crying and doing nothing about life. Yes, women will meet obstacles, but in the long run, it only makes us stronger. Victimhood weakens women. If you visited the battered women's shelf, you'd learn that.

Why don't you gals give it a shot. I felt much as many girls here do before. When I finally experimented the idea of taking control of my life, I just became power addicted (in a good way!)... :-)

Keri

A last note: one of my martial arts' instructor was married for 10 years to a men who beat her senseless. Go mess with her now.


By Keridwyn on Friday, July 31, 1998 - 09:39 pm:

Holy cow. did I say woman's shelf... make that shelter please :)

Keri


By Wominist on Saturday, August 1, 1998 - 02:25 pm:

Shampoo, Good point about my saying "I don't even know if I want to address..." That wasn't the most constructive way I could've started the conversation. However, I'm not using what Keri said before "against her" were just having a discussion about it.

Keri,

We are on the same side! I WOULD NEVER mean to imply that women are weak. We are physically, emotionally and mentally capable. But I implore you not to think of feminism as dead in the Western world. You imply that feminism is a pity cry for women and I don't think it is. Recognizing that we are treated differently from men, getting angry over that, and doing something about it is part of what feminism is about. I hope you agree.

But let me ask you this: When you're instructer was getting beaten was she a victim? Yes. Then she took control of her life and got a black belt, is she still a victim of an abuser? Yes. That is my point. She is a victim that overcame! Not all women do but should they be looked down upon? No, it's not completely their fault.

The fact that you say "I'm an engineering student, I'm in the Navy and in martial arts, so you can imagine that I'm surounded mostly by men, some who are quite sexist" proves that feminism has been at work (or you wouldn't be in college or the navy) and needs to continue to be a part of men and women's lives (so sexism is decreased and more women enter challenging fields)

What's unfair to women is that we have to work for what men get no questions asked. I respect you for the life you've chosen but I want the day to come when it's no big deal if your a women in the Navy, or a women in martial arts. I want to see a day when women don't have to get off their ass and work hard for what men already have because it's right there for them, just like it is for men.


By Shampoo on Saturday, August 1, 1998 - 07:05 pm:

What I want is for my little brother to help around the house a bit, and not have the same "it's a girls job" attitude that my dad has! You have no idea how much this pisses me off, my *whole* family eats dinner, and right after dinner my dad and little brother and whatever *male* guest we had go into the living room to watch TV, while me, my mom and my sister clean the kitchen. WHY!?! We're the ones who cooked it, so why do we have to clean up after it? My dad and brother don't even put their plates away.

Even more, whenever we go to my uncles house, my dad yells at me to go into the kitchen and help, while he sits around with the men! This is *not* fair, just because I'm a girl it means I have to be in the kitchen at all times??

Make the little boys start from an early age helping around the house! You fathers out there set an example for your sons and *at least* put the plates away or *something*!!!


By Keridwyn on Sunday, August 2, 1998 - 01:19 am:

That I am in the Navy means nothing about feminism today. Women were joining the Navy in 1944. THEN feminism meant something in regards to joining. It is quite useless today.

You don't realize what feminism is -- a political movement, one which hardly affects cultural traditions overall. Feminism will not change the mind of sexist men. It didn't 50 years ago, it won't now. What did change some men's minds was the fact that the laws changed, and women changed first. Men had to change along. It's a pattern. Politically we have it all. But then you ask, "gee, it's just on paper, in real life, men and women are not equal". True. Women now must have some work done among themselves. Forget movements. It's now time for women to learn to use the power they don't know they have. They can vote, get Ph.D.'s, become politicians or Navy officers. But I know some women who never noticed, because they are too busy crying about what they don't have (whatever that would be).

Victimhood is another concept you don't understand from my point of view. I am speaking of "feelings of being a victim". Self-pity. The thought "I am a victim". No, you should say, "I am not a victim". What you describe, womanist, applies to all human beings. Starving children in Ethiopia are victims. Blacks, males or females, are often discriminated against -- they are victims. Men make up about 94% of the work force of the worst jobs available in this country, and also make up the majority of victims of injuries and death at work. They are victims.

Gee, that's called life. Everyone is a victim of something. Ever noticed? No one is excluded. If you think "gee, I am a victim", you usually drown in your own tears. Off with the victim mindset. Don't buy into it, sweetie. Life is not fair, ever heard of that? If you think it's too rough to be a woman in the States, move to Somalia.

Keep that in mind, and don't implore me to sympathize with self-pity. My martial arts instructor is not a victim. If she felt that way, she'd still be married to the loser.

You're not telling me what I don't know. You have not gathered my message at large, and perhaps it would be a waste of time trying to explain more. But that's ok, many women don't get what I mean (I bet I don't get some things myself). Some seem to resent my thoughts and my person. What can I do?

C'est la vie, womanist... we might never see eye to eye, but I wish you good luck in whatever path you take in this life.

Ker


By ZoOeY on Monday, August 3, 1998 - 10:17 pm:

Alas, the traditional bubble dome of the mothers and her daughters swimming through grease and steam in the hot, spicy kitchen while the fathers and his sons slouch in their favorite leather couches front of a glob tube continues to dominate society to this day.

Shampoo:
My father is a natural workaholic so he doesn't spend too much time in the kitchen and it's inevitable because he'll put vegetable soup in a cup of mug or wander around like an emaciated Holocaust refugee muttering, "when are we eating!?" It's painstakingly difficult to change conventional ways we have been taught for goddess know how many centuries. On the bright side, my pro-feminist brother makes wonderful contributions to our household chores [when he's home from college] and he does even take the effort to learn the art of cooking. Someday, when he settles down to have a family, he definitely will blur the distinct gender roles.

I am not the Gospel but if you truly want to set a positive example for your kid brother, perhaps you could go on strike. Let the house pile up into a garbage heap of dried dishes and only perform necessaties for your own needs. Maybe it will convince them to join your little kitchen club. Women are not the only people who belong there. People do.


By Shampoo on Tuesday, August 4, 1998 - 12:48 pm:

ooh! that's a good idea. except for the fact that my dad will yell at me and say "clean up the kitchen... NOW!!" and then i'll say "why can't *he* do it?" and dad will say "because he's a little boy." and i'll say "he's 10 yrs old, that's old enough" and my dad'll say "DON'T ARGUE WITH ME!! why can't i ever say anything without anyone doing it right away??"

its so pathetic, it pisses me off so much. but seriously, from now on i'm not going to let him off the hook. he's going to help around the house, i'm gonna make him!


By Sazzy on Friday, October 2, 1998 - 02:39 pm:

This is directed towards the earlier messages.
I do well in school, but I'm rubbish at sport because I'm really weak. (I was born with a really rare muscle disorder.) Because I never did much running around outdoors stuff I spent more time on schoolwork and stuff so I got better grades, and I'm sick and tired of being teased about it. I'm fed up with "Oh Sarah you're such a bod" and "You boffin" and all the groans if I put my hand up to answer a question in class. It always comes from the boys who muck around in class and don't do their homework and win sports prizes and the girls who bat their eyelashes and pout.
Funny that.

Note:I'm not saying that people who are good at sport don't/can't get good grades or aren't nice people


By Ms.bass on Sunday, October 25, 1998 - 12:15 pm:

i am unbelieveably pi*sed off with the image i have at school. as i care about my work and want to do well in school, people seem to think that i have no life or i don't have fun! that is soo not true! just because i don't go out and get plastered every night doesn't mean i'm boring! i'm really into music so i like to stay in with a bunch of mates and play or listen to music. nothin' boring about that is there? so everybody at my school, don't judge or stereotype me 'till you know me!


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