Feminism


NrrdGrrl! Discussion Forum: Vent: Feminism
By Me on Sunday, December 21, 1997 - 06:37 pm:

I am a younger girl, but have considered myself a feminist for many years (ever since I found out what it was). I've been called a man-hater because of this, though its never really bothered me because I know the people who call me that don't know what feminism is. Feminism to me is, believing all women are equal, and both sexes are equal, that's it. I wanted to know what other people think it is. I read about references to the Spice Girls. Since they were made up, and all this girl power stuff was created by the record companies, I don't believe them to be feminists (uh... gee... 'ya think?) But some other people mentioned how they can't be feminists because of what they wear. Which seems odd to me, because if all women are supposed to be equal women should be able to wear whatever they want, and still be considered equal to any women or man. I am a feminist (according to what i believe it to be). I believe I will always be a feminist, no matter what I am wearing.


By ZoOeY on Wednesday, December 24, 1997 - 12:54 pm:

To me, feminism means going on an incredible, almost spiritual journey and amazing discovery to unraveling who you are.. finding out who you REALLY are.. finding out who everybody else are.. waking up in my comforty bed everyday, rising to fresh challenges that lies ahead of me for me to face and battle..I don't think feminism is just about the politics of beauty and looks and all that crap, but it also descends to something much deeper..basically, it comes down to the role of our gender and all the intermingled connections that go along with it. An image also pops up on my mind.. I think about the girls who are being drowned and murdered in China just because they were girls. So that's what feminism means to me.


By Niftyfifty on Wednesday, December 24, 1997 - 01:54 pm:

I agree with the person who wrote this colum about femminism I believe in it because I fell if women do not take a stand they will become the third class chattle they once were and that is not so very long ago that we were all a piece of property of some man wheter it was a father or husband or uncle we were of no importance in this life.... I wonder where this civilization would be if there were no women at all....????


By Gretchen on Thursday, December 25, 1997 - 10:27 pm:

Have you ever thought of starting a feminist group in your school? I did recently, and it's worked out really well. We don't get TOO much shit and everyone has found it an extremely positive experience. Don't worry about getting a lot of people to join cuz all you need are a few really dedicated members. It's the best way to spread the message and make a difference.


By Simone on Thursday, December 25, 1997 - 10:44 pm:

That sounds really interesting. Could you post a little more about it? I wish I'd heard about this a couple years ago, but it's a little late now... Another option (and the one I took) is to expropriate existing school activities. I help run my school's Engineering and Robotics Club. It's not limited to girls by any means, but most of the people who actually come to meetings are female. It's really great to be a bunch of high school girls who know how to weld... The one problem I have is that we haven't been able to find any local engineers who are female. It would be really nice to have a role model. Plus someone who understands how hard it is to work in the machine shop... wearing a skirt.
-Simone


By Gretchen on Monday, December 29, 1997 - 01:36 am:

Simone>
Well so far we've only had two meetings. But the last one we got a speaker to talk to us. She was one of my friends' mom and she teaches minority studies at a college in my city. It was really interesting and she gave out these papers that said "What Feminists Want" and explained it. We have tons of ideas for other speakers and we're going to have a week where we put up signs with statistics about sexism in the workplace and rape and that kind of thing. I'm kind of annoyed that only two guys have come to any of the meetings and one of them is a substitute teacher. I'll keep you posted as we actually start doing things.


By Amelia Wilson (Admin) on Wednesday, January 14, 1998 - 11:57 am:

I think starting a group in school is a great idea-- even if the only thing you get to do is gather together and talk and share your experiences.

I'm well out of school myself, but I still remember how good it felt to talk with other women about common experiences and frustrations. It makes you aware that you're not alone out there.


By Cindy on Saturday, January 17, 1998 - 02:44 pm:

Starting a group in school sounds cool. I wish I
were able to do that, but because of the place I
live and my social status, it would not work out.
I am completely into the feminist movement
though and am considering a job as an attorney
for women. Or as a college professor for women's
studies. I hope that I am never persuaded back
into thinking that men control our lives. We
control our lives!!!
Oh, Spice Girls are NOT feminists!!! They are too
into singing about losing boyfriends and all that
crap. Spice Girls SUCK!!!


By Meredith on Sunday, January 18, 1998 - 04:47 pm:

Cindy-
Feminism is about going around social status and other things imposed on you from the outside. If you think that starting a club at your school would be cool...DO IT GIRLIE!!! Don't EVER LET ANYTHING HOLD YOU BACK!!!


By Quinn Duestches on Sunday, January 25, 1998 - 12:27 pm:

SPICE GIRLS SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thank you. I feel better now. Everyone I talk to loves them, but they ARE NOT FEMINIST, have NO MUSICAL ABILITY, and they SUCK!


By Jessica F. on Sunday, February 15, 1998 - 02:14 pm:

Can a man be a feminist?


By Lee on Sunday, February 15, 1998 - 09:22 pm:

I think men can be feminists. If they are genuinely concerned about the issues which affect women (equal pay/opportunities, personal safety, etc.), they are feminists.

Here's an example. Back when I was in college, the university used to host conferences & hired conference assts. (5 men, 5 women). There was only one conference where we had the opportunity to make additional money (via tips) by carrying the participants' bags. Our supervisor (another student) only assigned the men to this task, while assigning the women to check-in, etc. (these tasks had no tip opportunities).

Three of the women (including me) thought this was really sexist. We talked it over w/2 men in the group we were friendly w/& they agreed. The 5 of us went into our supervisor's room to talk to him about it.

Despite the fact that 3 of the women were taller than some of the men, he claimed the old height/strength argument for his decision (i.e. we were "too weak" to carry luggage). I pointed out that during semester breaks, I was known to haul my own luggage from Port Authority to the subway and into another borough. I even managed to move between subway cars w/it :-) We weren't satisfied w/his answer, so we went to the conference coordinator. The guys came with us in support.

Ironically, the guy who made the decision to deprive us of tips was into feminist studies & gave good lip service to equal rights. The guys who actually supported us weren't that vocal about women's rights, but they recognized discrimination when they saw it & were willing to speak up against it.

I've seen a few other examples of men who are concerned/supportive of issues women have to deal with. Of course, there are a number of bozo boys out there too. Let's hope as time goes on, there will be more men & less "bozo boys."


By Lya on Sunday, February 22, 1998 - 09:59 pm:

YES. A man can be a feminist. I know a lot of guys who worship girls--who just plainly love women for who they are, not their bra size!

~Lya


By Allyson Demoe on Tuesday, March 3, 1998 - 10:05 pm:

Feminism is an important part of who I am. I just picked up a paper today which said that Feminists don't exist anymore. How can this assumption be made, and then blatantly placed on the first page of the section it was in (Life Section, that is)?
We tend to go on and on about whether or not the Spice Girls are feminists but that is NOT the issue. The issue is if YOU are a feminist and according to the news media (supported, continued, run by and made for the patriarchy) there aren't many of us left out here. Is it because we are a challenge to the establishment? Is that why "they" are denying us - to reassert their power? There's enough conspiracy theories out there anyhow, but such questions are worth considering.
AD


By Anonymous on Wednesday, March 4, 1998 - 06:56 pm:

It is such a shame that feminism has been demonised by the media and all feminists in their eyes are dungaree clad loud mouthed ugly women.
I am proud to be a feminist and I have always called myself that. A feminist is a girl or woman who stands up for her rights to equal treatment in school in the workplace and in life in general. What I think is sad is that most girls and women I know would agree that they should have equal pay/rights etc, but would then say "oh Im not a feminist" as if it was something totally disconnected from their lives. I think the portrayal of feminism is so narrow that people fear it as populated by real agitators and scary people with whom they dont want to be associated, when in reality they are feminists. They just dont know it yet!
KW


By Que on Friday, March 6, 1998 - 11:22 pm:

I dunno, I just think feminism is mainly about the empowerment of women, about the education of women, in all senses, not just about men, you iknow what I mean? I just think that it's about confidence and empowerment. People DO fear feminists>>> I say "so, you believe in the equality of women?" and they say "well, yeah of course." Then I say, "well, I guess you're a feminist then." And they're frightened, and run away at the mere suggestion that they might be a *feminist.* LIke it's a bad thing.

I guess people have this "FemiNazi" view of feminists... like we're amazon women who believe in the domination of the male gender or something...which is such crap. We are just trying to balance it out a little. So, it makes sense that change-fearing men and women would be afraid to call themselves Feminist, because they don't understand what it means really.

Am i making sense to anyone out there?


By Julia on Sunday, March 8, 1998 - 01:14 pm:

Men and women are not treated equally in American soceity. This is a fact. I consider myself a feminist because I strive to get rid of this gender prejudice. Equality does not mean reversing gender roles, but abolishing unfair treatment all together. I want to be in the majority when I am upset when my science teacher tells me I should be at home cooking and not in the lab. I want to go through ONE day without being complimented for being a dillegent worker while my male counterpart is praised for being intelligent. But I would never want anyone, not the most sexist pig, to have to go through what i face everyday. I simply want these actions and hostilities which cause so much duress to cease.


By Lee on Sunday, March 8, 1998 - 04:44 pm:

The science teacher sounds like Captain Caveman & has no business teaching if he's going to be Neanderthal boy!! I hesitate to tell you to complain about him though, because I don't know what the consequences would be. Is there some adult you could talk with about this to get advice? Parents, other relatives, maybe the local NOW chapter?

If you'd like assistance finding women's groups in your area, such as NOW, let me know & I'll see if I can track it down for you. I do a lot of Internet research for work & school, so I might be able to find some info for you.


By Julia on Sunday, March 15, 1998 - 02:21 pm:

Thank you so much Lee - it is refreshing to hear an opinion which differs from my classmates' ("he's funny"). I have spoken to my female guidance councilor. She said that he had been spoken to on many occasions and that "some people just never learn." She basically told me to let it roll off of my back. Furious, I told my parents and they called the school (i was hesitant to let them become involved - i wanted to try to handle it myself first). They said that my parents and I had to come in and confront the science teacher. I refused, explaining that i had already spoken to him. Now they tell me i may speak to the head of the science department. I don't understand why this rests on MY shoulders. The behavior is continuing and i am hesitant to go speak to a complete stranger about something that is so upsetting. I told an adult and I feel that should be enough. It is wrong - and the school is sending out the message that the only bad part of the harrasment is the fact that it upsets me. Not the fact that he is sending out a negative message to all of his students.

I can't wait to go to college :)


By Que_ on Sunday, March 15, 1998 - 06:51 pm:

hey peoples:

Go to my webpage. I'm going to post some very pro-feminist stuff there- nothing femiNazi, but pro-feminist. So, check it out, sign my guestbook, and I'll be forever grateful!!! I want to get my message out.

Thanks!

Que

Http://www.mtweb.com/~monique

Go! Now!


By Lily on Friday, March 27, 1998 - 09:51 pm:

Feminism to means has taken on new meaning in the last few years. i came out as not only bisexual but as a sadomasochist. i've heard an incredible amount of crap about the latter, not the former. for me, feminism has *always* meant that women have the social and political rights to do what they want with their futures, their families, *and their bodies*. for years, the only way i could particularly find a way to apply that last one was the abortion issue.

but as i began to let my sadomasochism out i learned the joy of *having the right to treat my body as i wish*. i learned that there is a difference between abuse and consensual sm, and much like i have the right to tattoo or pierce my body wherever i wish (which i did) i also have the right to ask someone or let someone beat me silly, letting endorphins and sexual arousal become a focus for little while, rather than the world around me.

i personally wish that someone had told me years ago that feminism is NOT about being a lawyer or making as much money as a man, but about CHOICES, and the fact that if i choose to become a submissive masochistic housewife, then i CAN.


By DaNa (poetikgrrl) on Monday, March 30, 1998 - 04:26 pm:

Let me just say one thing; highschool sucks for a feminist or grrrl. It is dominated by snotty girls who set the code for what is cool and not cool, and stupid guys who, we as girls, are supposed to impress. I am tired of it! As I read some of the other entries, I realize I am not alone. I guess I just want to say to everyone to keep being who you are(I know it sounds cheesy) and do your own thing with out trying be what others expect. Luckily, there are other girls that feel the same way and by coming together we can maybe change things a little. Grrrl love can change the world! Oh yeah, and I can't wait till college either.


By Romulan23 on Wednesday, April 15, 1998 - 02:51 am:

Ladies,
Call me what you want, but I don’t understand women at all! What’s so bad about traditional families? I personally believe woman are meant to be mothers, and men are meant to be providers. I know what kind of girl I want to marry, if
there’s any left on earth. That’s right, a caring wife, a couple kids, and a house with a
white picket fence dammit!

Wondering why men are such jerks? Try mixed signals. First, you have all the girls that say they want everything equal, and at the same time still think they deserve to be put on a pedestal. Open the door, pay for my dinner, mow the
law, rack the leaves, fix the car etc. My best friend is a perfect example of this. His wife
expects him to help her with all the inside choirs, but when it comes to any of the
traditional guy jobs she should’t have to touch them.

If you want everything to be equal, fine.. but don’t expect men to stay traditional while
you change.

Oh, and then there’s my last girlfriend. Everything is fine until we go out to dinner, I open the door for her, and offer to pay for dinner. Suddenly she’s real quiet for the rest of the night, and that’s the last I hear from her. I’ve got an idea, give us a signal before hand, so
we know what to expect.

So what is it, equal or reverse sexism? It seems like everything is swinging to the later to
me, and I can tell you right now I’m not letting it happen without a fight.

-The End- DAve KiLey



By Ayelet on Thursday, April 16, 1998 - 06:06 am:

Please,

Before I even start to answer you, I want you to reread every single message on this topic. Does any of the girls/women "think they deserve to be put on a pedestal"? No. They don't. They all want equality. Nothing more. Each and every one of them would pay her own way in the restaurant. They want to be equal, to be able to do what they want.
Don't you believe in equality? I mean, are you one of those guys which, if born a few hundred years ago, would believe in slavery? It's dramatic, I know, But that's the case.
You want your wife to be dependent on you? Can't she make money and have a life?
Personally, I think you're scared. You're scared that your wife will do guy's jobs and then you won't be able to do anything, because you don't believe in guys sweeping the floors. Well, I don't believe in women sweeping the floors either, but it's a job that has to be done, and so I believe both genders should share the dirty jobs: From cooking to lawn mowing.
Look at my house for example: my parents share. My mother fixes the car and stuff and my father folds the laundry. It's not their job or anything, they just both do both things, and I never heard them argue about that. That's MY model.
The main point is, though, that everyone should be able to do what they want to do and what they're good at: If a girl wants to be an engineer, fine. If a guy wants to be a "housewife", fine. Girls can choose to be housewives if they want, but they should be able to choose not to be ones. they should be able to choose. This is the ideal world for me, and I hope someday this dream will come true, because after all, men and women aren't so different.


By Que_ on Thursday, April 16, 1998 - 10:29 am:

Ayelet:

I have wanted to say what you just said for a very long time! I just couldn't find words to say it without hostility! Good job, and I totally agree with you!

ps: Today I changed lightbulbs all over the house, put up the street numbers on my house, and hung a bunch of cabinets. All of which were jobs that my macho father never seemed to "get around to." My father is getting better about it, but he's one of the guys like the guy who posted above. He doesn't do housework. he only tells my mother and I how messy the house is, and expects us to do the cleaning. I don't even think he realizes that he does that. THe other thing is, he has assigned himself to do the "man" jobs, like the remodeling or stuff like that. Unfortunately, he only does half-ass jobs, and me and my mom end up finishing them for him. This creates much turmoil in my family. Sometimes I htink it would have benn better for my dad to marry someone who focused on the house more than her job. He could be happier that way. It's so sad, really. I think he's holding my mom back from feeling good about her career. ANd my mom is one hell of a woman for getting how far she has.

I want to be just like my mom when i grow up, except that I won't marry a guy like my father who expects to be king of the castle or something.


By Titania on Thursday, April 16, 1998 - 11:25 pm:

i do think that romulan has a point though. Most grrls do not point out what they expect in a relationship, and i agree, that if a woman wants help with house work, she should help with the yard work. Actually when you think about it, if you do the house work and your husband does the yard, or vice versa, it is a pretty even split! Romulan never expressed the idea that things shouldn't be equal, but he did voice concerns about reverse sexism...his points are valid and kudos to him for voicing them just as we do!


By Ayelet on Friday, April 17, 1998 - 08:29 am:

He did say that: "I personally believe woman are meant to be mothers, and men are meant to be providers" which does apply that the woman can't be a provider.
But I do agree he had a point, and I'm also saying we're not the ones to be yelled at.


By Titania on Friday, April 17, 1998 - 02:00 pm:

I actually talked to him last night...he only wants women to be what they want to be, but he personally wants a woman who wants to be a mother. He wants to be a man i believe that will provide for his family so that his wife doesn't have to work.


By Anonymous on Monday, April 20, 1998 - 12:48 pm:

To respond to Lily's message about sadomasochism and feminism, my "sick" female friends and I have always had problems reconciling our feminism and our lifestyle... which, of course, involves subservience, often to men. Your comments are interesting... it's really nice to know that there are other feminist subs out there!


By Anonymous on Wednesday, April 22, 1998 - 03:31 pm:

WARNING - Long Post! (but true)

What To Do When Your Boss Says You're Cute

By now, I imagine almost everyone knows about the Seinfeld sexual
harassment case. If not, I'll be sweet enough to give you the background. On
an episode of Seinfeld, Jerry could not remember a woman's name. All he
knew was that it rhymed with a part of the female anatomy. His initial
suggestions were Mulva and some other name that I've forgotten. The woman
realized he didn't remember her name and she stormed out. As soon as she left,
Jerry remembered her name -- Delores (rhymes with clitoris).

That's funny, right? I thought it was hilarious, but then again, it doesn't take
much to amuse me. A guy at Miller Brewing was relaying the story to a group
of co-workers, of whom at least one was a female. He was shocked that the
censors at NBC allowed that to get through. Hell, I was shocked too. I know
Seinfeld is their moneymaker, but I figured they would draw the line at jokes
revolving around the female genitalia. It goes without saying (so I'll say it
anyway), one of the women was offended. Awww, poor baby. She
complained to upper management and they fired the guy for "sexual
harassment".

This guy, thankfully, did not put up with that bullshit. He sued Miller Brewing
for wrongful termination and the jury awarded him $26M. I thought he should
have gotten the whole friggin' company. The jury was trying to send a message
that these sexual harassment claims have gotten out of hand. Amen to that!
And, here begins my diatribe.

I hate women. I admit it. I've always had a hard time getting along with other
girls because very few are like me. I'm brutally honest, relatively consistent, and
I really like men and all of their idiosyncrasies. So, I very rarely support any
woman that cries sexual harassment. It's been my experience if (shock) you
say, "Uh, hon, this isn't the 50s. Leave me the hell alone," they leave you alone.
While I like men, I realize most men are a bit dense. You have to explain
everything to them. They take nothing for granted. You have to tell them if
something offends you; they don't naturally assume it might. I have no problem
with that. I constantly have to tell my boyfriend to shut up because, hey, the big
lug doesn't know any better. I think it's something that makes men so
endearing, but most women don't.

Now, what is wrong with the average woman that they can't appreciate and/or
tolerate the simplicity of men? I think it's because most women are torn
between feminism and traditionalism. This is something that REALLY pisses me
off about women and why I'd like to give them a good smack. They want to be
in the workforce with men. They want to play in the big leagues. They want to
be in the dog-eat-dog world. Fine, but once they get there, they revert to June
Cleaver. They want to work side by side with the big boys, but when the going
gets tough, they curl into the fetal position and cry sexual harassment. "I am
woman, hear me roam, but oh please, protect me from the big, evil male telling
me I look nice!" Grow up, ya know?

I was listening to the radio yesterday and some woman called in complaining
her boss was a pig. It's not like she had some $100,000-a-year job that she
couldn't bear to give up. She worked as a medical assistant and those jobs are
a dime a dozen. I'm not sure what was keeping her there. Anyway, she said
she's worked there for 5 years and she hates his lewd remarks. Sweetheart, if
you've let him get away with it for 5 years, he obviously thinks you like it or
have no problem with it! Why didn't she tell him to shut up the first time he
made a comment she found offensive? She could have easily found another job.

Besides, is it really worth it to work at a job where you feel uncomfortable? I
don't think so. This is what confuses me about sexual harassment lawsuits.
These women claim the men have been harassing them for YEARS. Well, duh,
if you don't speak up, the person thinks you're okay with what they're saying.
These women are total idiots for putting up with it. It's obvious they just want
the $$$; their self-respect and dignity have nothing to do with it. They're
greedy, selfish wenches.

And, aren't these lawsuits setting up a dangerous precedent in the workplace?
Shouldn't men and women learn to work together in relative peace?
Are we going to have to resort to segregated work areas because men and women are
afraid to speak to each other? I know I could NEVER work at a place where
people were afraid to be themselves. I realize some people find me offensive
not only on the Web, but in real life also. I'm fond of telling dirty, lewd,
offensive jokes. I get a kick out of them. I'm especially fond of jokes involving religion. Back to my point -- instead of people bitching about me to higher ups,
I'd prefer they came to me and told me how they felt. If they didn't like the
jokes I told or the opinions I had, I'd either stop hanging around them or I
would refrain from certain things in their presence. What happened to
old-fashioned courtesy? Why does everyone have to run to their boss? Can't
they just tell the person how they feel? Nine times out of ten they'll respect their
wishes. I admit I'm guilty of purposely bothering people after they've informed
me certain aspects of my personality are offensive, but that's only if they had an
attitude. Otherwise, I was perfectly content to avoid them.

I hope this settlement has sent a message to corporate America. People are
sick of sexual harassment accusations lawsuits. We're sick of stupid women.
We're sick of attending sensitivity classes. We're sick of being scared to get to
know our co-workers. We're sick of not being ourselves. I don't know why I
even bothered writing this. It won't change anything. Women will continue to
hope their boss tells them their outfit is nice, so they can make big bucks.
Management will continue to be scared of these women and settle the lawsuits.
Innocent men will continue to lose their jobs. What a crappy world we live in,
huh?


By Anonymous on Sunday, April 26, 1998 - 12:06 pm:

Wow!! Anonymous That was quite a speech you gave. I didn't agree with everything you wrote, being I live an alternative life style, but toward the end I began to see your point. And I do beleive you have one. No, I am not very fond of men but some of my bestfriends are men. (and they are not gay men) You made a good point, that this is getting out of hand, but we as single voices are not going to change the situation. I respect your oppinion as I hope that you can respect mine.

Thanks for sharing©


By Julia on Tuesday, April 28, 1998 - 04:13 pm:

I just recently had the time to check these bulletins and would like to respond to Romulan23. Now I know you probably feel that you have been attacked with angry responses, but I promise to try to calmly explain my stance. I do not feel that there is anything wrong with a woman being a mother or caretaker. But I also see nothing wrong with a woman being a musician, scientist, or business person. All I want to be able to do is to go to school for one day and not be scorned for my decisions regarding MY life. Now if you feel this is wrong - that's fine - I'm sure there are many women out there who feel the same way and would be happy to be provided for. But not I. I am a worker, a dreamer, and an intelligent person who wants to do as she pleases with out being restrained by other people's beliefs. All I ask is to be given a fair chance to reach my aspirations.


By Julia on Tuesday, April 28, 1998 - 04:28 pm:

Also - to all of you people out there who are saying that women only want partial equality - I am presenting you with one who seeks total. I am willing to go and paint a house, to do my own fix-it jobs, and even to fight for my country under the draft. But regardless of whether I believe in these things or not, I should not have to go to class where teachers belittle me because of my gender. Because if teachers and people with authority make remarks about gender, what is to stop them from making racist and anti-semetic jokes? Or firing people because of their appearances? Where will this line be drawn? I am a firm believer that there is nothing wrong in sticking up for yourself. If you deserve better treatment - say so. This is not complaining - it is claiming the respect you deserve.


By AprilStarchild on Tuesday, May 12, 1998 - 01:16 pm:

Oh boy is there a lot to respond to!!

Romulan23: Obviously, you have never taken a sociology class. All that "women are naturally nurturing" and "men are naturally aggressive" stuff is bullshit. All that stuff comes from SOCIETAL TRAINING. From the day you are born, the media, your friends, your (well meaning) relatives shove that shit into your head. Hello!?! Have you ever watched TV?? It's so completely obvious! All the girls play with pink and dolls and cooking stoves. Boys play with fake power tools and G.I. Joes. In commercials for children's board games, if someone wins, it's ALWAYS a boy. If you ask the companies, it's official policy!! Kids are sponges, they absorb this crap. They've done studies and found that by 18mos children are aware of their gender (i.e.: I'm a girl, he's a boy, we're not the same) and start imitating every other member of their gender as a way of defining who they are. "My mommy and my aunt do housework, that must be what girls do." Children playing "house" in kindergarten aren't just playing. They're setting up their roles in life. "My daddy acts this way, and I'm a boy like he is, so when I play Daddy I'll act like him." "In all the TV shows the secretary is dumb, so when we play Bank I have to be the secretary and act stupid." They don't conciously realize they're doing this, but they are. I used to babysit a great deal and I could sit there and _watch_ it happen. They'd watch a movie where the men acted a particular way and women acted another and they would play and imitate _exactly_ how the characters acted, split by gender.

Further proof?? In some other cultures, ones NOT affected by prevalent western thinking, many of the roles are reversed. There's a tribe in Africa where men wear makeup, act swishy, and are expected to be very sentimental and emotional. The women in this tribe are thought to be physically stronger than men because, after all, they're the ones pushin' out the babies!

And as for the "men are stronger than women" argument (you didn't bring this one up but sooner or later somebody will): Men are stronger for short amounts of time. They've got more outright muscle mass for ancient purposes like killing things and such. Women are able to do something for a long time. They have extra fat stores (aka "my big'ol thighs and hips and breasts") meant for giving birth (which does take a while) or gathering plant food. We can sustain work for a longer period of time. So, technically, we have equal strength. Men just let it all out at once and women can do something for a while.

As for the anonymous person commenting on sexual harrassment: Ever think that maybe they were too scared to tell?? If you've got the nerve to say, "Shut up you asswipe," more power to you. But most women are trained from birth to make everyone happy. Telling your boss that "gee you're a jerk" is NOT going to make him happy. I've been there!! I had a guy bug me for most of seventh grade, him and his friends would make nasty comments and tease me on my lack of dates or boyfriends and my pre-pubescent body. I would just blush and keep walking with my head down because I WAS SCARED OF THEM. I did not have the self confidence or support from friends (because, at that time, I simply didn't have any) to just roll my eyes and tell them to jack off. Most of the time, I do now...but many women NEVER have the guts.

*deep breath* I do believe I've said my piece now. So there. If anyone would like to email me and continue the subject, (including those whose arguments I've debated) they are free to fill my box....I love email.

aprilstarchild@hotmail.com


By Keridwyn on Thursday, May 28, 1998 - 09:19 pm:

Firstly, I'd like to repeat some words I left at another discussion:

Women in the US are not victims or opressed people. Wake up,
girls. I am Brazilian born, and till my mid teen years I lived in that
country. You DON'T have a CLUE what real
sexism/machoism/misogyny is. Had you known, you'd be more
greatful to be American than you can imagine. US women have
everything they want to have (with some bonuses). Unfortunately, not
all of them take advantage of it.

Feminist work is finished in the US. There is nothing left to do. Under
the law, women are essentially equal to men. We have every right as
they do. If men still rape, beat and disrespect women, it's not
because there aren't laws against those crimes. SOME men will, for
a period of time, have difficulties adjusting to equality standards.
They can't forget thousand-year-old bigotry overnight. Now it is up to
women to show them what they are made of. Vote smart, study hard,
become what you will and be the best at it. Political movements are
no longer necessary. In fact, they are quite annoying.

Lose the victim status. Get off your pool of self-pity and please let go
of your psychological dependence on the guys (and you will find it
quite useless to hate them).

Secondly, allow me to give a minute of praise to women who choose to be housewives and mothers at home. They deserve as much respect as career women, and their work is no less important than ours. If a man prefers a homemaker, may he treat her with care and respect, and may their lives be happily lived.

I choose something else -- an engineering career. Happily, I am engaged to a man who supports my choice and is satisfied the way I am. Nevertheless, Mr. Romulan, what you think women are meant to be is your perception of a much more complex issue. Imagine if I said all men are meant to be engineers. Sensible, no? Remember... the type of woman you prefer is fine... but we are all very different and unique in our ambitions and goals. And last but not least, I AM a very caring partner and will make a great mother some day.

Sincerely, Keri


By Ginger Spice on Sunday, May 31, 1998 - 09:57 am:

I am a futuristic Feminist
To all my fellow fems, here is a list of things hat tick me OFF.

Barbie Dolls. Tiny waists, high hair, orange tans, real women? I don't think so!

Lara Croft. Check out my discussion about her, in
Announcements/events

Page 3 girls. Degradement heaven!

Men not understanding what us women have to go through.

Periods, moodswings, not being allowed to play footie, you know the score!

Homemakers. A disgrace to female kind.

Indecent exposure. Look here bud, we can wear what we want we can do what we want. Dig?
My list is endless. Anyone else have any other ideas?


By Laurel on Tuesday, June 2, 1998 - 08:17 pm:

Hello?! Homemakers are a disgrace to female kind? Maybe if their husbands won't let them work and they are happily submissive, but my mom chose of her own will to be a homemaker. She has a university education and could work if she wanted. My dad would have encouraged it, but she wanted to stay home because she likes taking care of children. Don't stereotype!


By Anonymous on Sunday, June 14, 1998 - 04:23 pm:

I am young (13), a "nerd", and a feminist. No one I know thinks like me. My friends are nice, but they don't read the same books, listen to the same music, or share my outrage at the way women are treated. Most of the girls in my class are ditzs. I can't use the computer often (I'm lucky to be using it now). I feel so alone.


By Ayelet on Monday, June 15, 1998 - 12:01 am:

You are not alone. That's what this place is for. I used to think I'm a total outsider, in my class, I still do. But here there is the wonderful freedom of having people like me around. Like you, Anon.
I know what you're talking about, it's same here (and I'm in Israel, for god's sake. The whole world shares the same problems). Only it's a bit worse, cause my friend is considered a very outspoken person who is very concered with woman's rights, but she doesn't see anything wrong about cheerleading, and always wishes she was thinner (and belive me, she's THIN). It drives me nuts sometimes. How can she not notice what's going on?
And I know this feeling of isolation. Nobody in my class can share my love of books. Sure, some of them read, but all they read is romantic novels. None of them wept over Little Women or laugh hystericlly over Three Men in A Boat.
And it looks like nothing is ever gonna get better. I'm hoping that in High School (I'm 13, too) there'll be more people of my sort. But if to judge from the high school grrls' posts here, it doesn't get any better. But hey, that's what this place is for! So start reading and posting.

Welcome home.


By Jane on Friday, June 19, 1998 - 06:53 pm:

For two thirteen year olds you girls sure have your heads on straight! Believe me you will find people that share your interests but until then think how cool it is that you're unique and brains are something niether people or time can take away from you. For the girl that was worried about her feminist/cheerleader friend, remember that not all feminists have high self-esteem all the time. We feel the same beauty/popularity pressures as everyone else. So try not to be to dis-appointed when a feminist falters a bit, they need encouragement and a reminder of what it's all about: loving yourself, and supporting those who need you.


By Anonymous on Sunday, June 21, 1998 - 02:27 pm:

Thanx to Ayelet and Jane for writing back (and Ayelet, I cried during Little Women, too)


By Shampoo on Monday, June 22, 1998 - 04:54 pm:

Little women! I cried. I cried my eyes out. Especially the poem Jo wrote about their box thingies... *sniff sniff*...

Okay, enough of that. I agree with Jane. I do consider myself somewhat of a feminist, but all I'm looking for is to go above and beyond the restrictions of my family's culture and religion. My mom is great, I love her lots, but I don't want her life. I don't want to marry a guy like my dad.

There was always this *cycle* in my moms family, marrying a certain type of guy... or being a certain type of guy. My great grandma (who just passed away last week) was involved with men who didn't treat her right. Her son, my grandpa, turned out to be one of those men, didn't treat my grandma or my mom right. My mom always said she would be the one to "break the cycle", but she didn't. She married my dad, who has a bad temper. He's a good guy, but it's his temper and his unreasonableness that bugs me. Now it's up to me and my sister to break the cycle. My sister wont, I can see it already, she's way too naive and falls into that whole "fantasy romance" thing with guys, she'll meet a guy who's nice, and that's it, she's crushing big time. She wont care about the guys faults as long as he loves her, she's has very low self esteem and confidence and stuff.

So it looks like it's going to be me who's gotta do it, but I'm starting to think that I might not be able to. Know what I mean? Like I'm just beginning to think that I'm never going to fall in love and get married, so I guess the sooner I accept it, the better off I'll be, right? I know I'm still really young, but I can kind of see, you know? Most of the men I've come in contact with (all relatives and friends of my father), have all been like him.

I don't think any of this is making any sense! All I wanna do is be everything my mom isn't. I don't want to be passive and let my husband boss me around, and I'm not going to let anyone talk to me in a bad way, and I don't wanna be stuck working in an office all day, etc etc. But I think in my effort to be *opposite*, i'm also giving up stuff like love and having kids and family and stuff like that. I don't want to be a cold, uncaring woman who hates men, but I don't want to be pushed around by a man like my dad, or a like my brother (who is showing signs already, at age 10). So... I'll stop talking, I don't know what I'm saying, and I don't know how this fits into "feminism"...

-shampoo
-sorry if i confused anyone.


By Olivia on Monday, June 22, 1998 - 08:45 pm:

To Keridwen: I absolutely agree with you point about respecting homemakers--it is a full time job available to both men and women (if they so choose). My guess is that those who bust on homemakers haven't thought their arguments through.
On the other hand, I have to disagree with you about American women being so blessed. I know the situation could be worse. I know the situation is worse in other countries, but there is a long way to go. I am not a victim--you are right about that. I am a part of a culture that still hands young girls (and boys!) a predetermined identity at birth instead of allowing everyone to develop his or her own. Sexism is not just bad for women, it undermines men as well. I am in a country where I will be paid less as a female college graduate than the average male high school graduate. This doesn't make me a victim, but it sure as hell makes me a woman with a lot of work to do!!
One last thing--an example of why feminism is important (those of you who have been in any sort of class will understand):
While taking a final in a class where the professor is male, I always try to not be the last person in the room with the professor. The last time this happened, it was with a professor I know and trust. Why? Because of the many professors I have met who make lewd comments in the classroom. Things like "I'm not sexist or anything, but I find you extremely attractive." WHAT!? Even after following procedure for a complaint, the student was told "I'm sure he didn't mean anything." Give me a break. This kind of stuff creates a hostile learning environment for women and it happens all the time!! (Check out your nearest University!) This is not only bad for the female students but also for the other male professors of whom I now have an irrational fear because I know they will be allowed to do or say pretty much anything they like. do others have these same experiences?
Sorry for the long message--this is a great site!


By Karen on Thursday, July 9, 1998 - 10:43 am:

I would just like to say that I think feminism is a bit outdated. I am 16 years old and from my point of view women are pretty much equal to men.
There will never be complete equality as that is an impossibility, but at the moment, I honestly believe that females are better off in most countries. Women have got every chance to obtain better jobs than their menfolk and they have more chance of getting their desired jobs, etc. It is women who slap lawsuits on their employers while claiming sexual discrimination, it is very rare that you hear of a man being discriminated against because of his sex.

I completely understand that some cultures believe that women are inferior but those of us with a sound mind know that men and women are equal. Therefore, if you want something out of life, go for it. What does it matter that you meet some discrimination along the way or hypocritical professors? If you want to do something bad enough then you will do it. Those who claim sexual discrimination as the reason for their failings are kidding themselves. They obviously didn't have the "get-up-and-go" that is required to meet ambitions.

Gotta go, I'm going on my summer holidays in two hours, but remember, sexual discrimination is dying, ambition isn't.

luv Kaz
xxxx


By Fatima5 on Thursday, July 16, 1998 - 12:06 pm:

Although in the United States women have come a long way, in most of the world they are still treated as second-class citezens, and have a lack of basic human rights. That is why I don't think that the task feminism put forth is anywhere near finished. I feel that because we as women in the US have an advantage over the rest in the world, we should try to help them.

And about homemakers, Feminism is about promoting a woman's right to CHOOSE! If she chooses to be a homemaker thats her choice.

Feminism is not yet outdated because many of us experience discrimination and sterotypes everyday. Feminism will continue to thrive as long as Feminists exist. I don't understand how the simple idea that men and women should be equal and achieve a social balence has become so complex. But I have a peculiar idea that it is caused by ignorence and sterotypes.


By Dana Clooney - Smith on Saturday, August 1, 1998 - 11:38 am:

Models. They might have brains , but they are skinny. I am not a size 8 and god forbid will probably never be a size 8 , but who cares? Boys like skinny models who are straight all the way down but men like girls with a few more curves!
I am not saying that all skinny models are brainless twits but if there were just a few 'fat' and 'normal' girls on the front cover of magazines then wouldn't that make sense? Life is all about variety and we all come in different shapes and sizes.


By Shampoo on Saturday, August 1, 1998 - 06:54 pm:

Dana, models are women, too. Remember? If we want men and women to be treated equal, we should start by treating our fellow women equally.


By David on Tuesday, August 18, 1998 - 03:48 pm:

Various feminists proclaim that women are 'under siege', that a monstrous social bias against them, if not a virtual war, is going on, that women have little respect or power (Steinem, Faludi, Tavris, etc.) Yet the notion of the American woman as a powerless "victim" is one of the most absurd notions ever foisted upon anyone. American women live, on average, seven years longer than men. They control 86 % of all personal wealth [PARADE Magazine, May 27, 1990], and make up 55% of
current college graduates. Women cast 54% of the votes in Presidential elections, so they can hardly claim to be left out of the political decision-making process! They win almost automatically in child custody disputes. Women suffer only 6% of the work-related fatalities (the other 94% are suffered by men). Women are the victim of only about 35% of violent crimes, and only about 25% of all murders, yet because of our society's exaggerated concern and respect for them, special legislation has been passed to punish "violence against women" as if it were a more heinous crime than "violence against men". (Feminists claim to want "equality", and this is an example of what "equality" means to them, i.e., preferential treatment to address their concerns). Two out of every three dollars spent on health care is spent on women, and even if you don't count pregnancy-related care, women still receive more medical care than men - yet feminists still holler that womens health is being "neglected", and far too many of us credulously believe them. Of the 25 worst jobs, as ranked by the Jobs Related Almanac based on a combination of salary, stress, security, and physical demands, 24 of them are predominantly, if not almost entirely, male, which might explain why men commit over 80% of all suicides.

So ladies, go cry to someone else. The facts speak for themselves. Women have it 100% easier than men, and you know it.


By Adee on Wednesday, August 19, 1998 - 05:48 pm:

I definately agree that women are so much better off than they once were!And I truly don't think we have all that much to complain about, if you think that as a woman you have it bad now look at how they treat women in some other countries. In some countries they still practice FGM (female genital mutilation) and that is sad. Our position here is not sad. Some men may not respect us still, but so what!? If you want respect you have to fight for it, not just say well I'm a woman so you have to respect me wheather you like it or not! Women are not victims unless you make out yourself to be one.
The whole thing about, well men want their women to stay at home and be housewives, well if the woman is willing to stay home fine. And if she wants to go out and be a businesswoman, that's fine too. But stop blaming the husband for it all, if the woman listens to him instead of doing what she wants to do then that's her problem. We have choices now, they're set before us, and whichever choice we make,then that's exactly what it is, our choice. Everyone out there who's shouting equality, well that's great too, but that's what it's got to be, equality. Not equality, plus a few added bonuses.


By Wominist on Thursday, August 20, 1998 - 07:40 pm:

I keep hearing this "Stop telling everyone your a victim blah blah" Are feminists out there crying I'm a victim?! Hardley! And just because we're *finally* getting what we deserve doesn't mean feminism has to role over and die.

David, you use your numbers like they're something women should feel guilty about! Women have busted their asses to start getting things men have had handed to them on a silver platter i.e. political influence. Yah things are looking better than they ever have-IT'S ABOUT TIME. And now that we have our "equality" in society feminism can start looking at other issues like why so many AMERICAN girls have eating disorders and can keep helping the many AMERICAN women who are raped, abused. Little things like that do still exist.

Feminism has never been about whining. It's about SCREAMING, and using the almighty brain to put a big femme fist through our screwed up but lovely nation.


By Shampoo on Friday, August 21, 1998 - 06:06 am:

wominist: i agree with what you said, but i would have liked it a little better if you said something like "our screwed up but lovely planet" instead of "nation", because there's more to the world then america. american's aren't the only feminists out there, and it's not only americans who have eating disorders and get raped and abused.

david: statistics change depending on who you get them from. where did you get all your numbers from? i want to check them out, some of them don't seem right to me.


By Wominist on Friday, August 21, 1998 - 10:10 pm:

Shampoo,

(laughing) Actually I live in Canada like you! Only I'm on the other side, Toronto. Culture wise Canada and America are so similer that I often lump them both into American, meaning North American. But your right "our screwed up but lovely planet" is what I should have said.


By Gilmoure on Tuesday, August 25, 1998 - 06:05 pm:

Hey Womanist,

Here are the definitions from Alice Walker's book In Search of Our Mothers' Gardens. I've also posted them in another topic where you asked for them.

Womanist 1. from womanish. (Opp. of "girlish," i.e., frivolous, irresponsible, not serious.) A black feminist or feminist of color. From the black folk expression of mothers to female children, "You acting womanish," i.e., like a woman. Usually referring to outrageous, audacious, courageous or willful behavior. Wanting to know more and in greater depth than is considered "good" for one.Interested in grown-up doings. Acting grown up. Being grown up. Interchangeable with another black folk expression: "You trying to be grown." Responsible. In charge. Serious.

2. Also: A woman who loves other women, sexually and/or nonsexually. Appreciates and prefers women's culture, women's emotional flexibility (values tears as natural counter-balance of laughter), and women's strength. Sometimes loves individual men, sexually and/or nonsexually. Committed to survival and wholeness of entire people, male and female. Not a separatist, except periodically, for health. Traditionally universalist, as in: "Mama, why are we brown, pink, and yellow, and our cousins are white, beige, and black?" Ans.: "Well, you know the colored race is just like a flower garden, with every color flower represented. "Traditionally capable, as in: "Mama, I'm walking to Canada and I'm taking you and a bunch of other slaves with me. "Reply: "It wouldn't be the first time."

3. Loves music. Loves dance. Loves the moon. Loves the Spirit. Loves love and food and roundness. Loves struggle. Loves the Folk. Loves herself. Regardless.

4. Womanist is to feminist as purple is to lavender.

Sorry about any typos.

G


By Wominist on Tuesday, August 25, 1998 - 10:11 pm:

Thanks again! Number 3 is my favorite.


By Kit Kat on Saturday, September 19, 1998 - 02:38 pm:

Just saying hi to Wominist. I live in Ottawa, and I'm glad to find Canadians out in cyberspace!


By Splatgrrl on Tuesday, September 22, 1998 - 03:22 am:

wow this is a great discussion list. I'm doing research on girls 8-18 or so and the internet and feminism. So I'd love to hear what any of you think of the net as a place to learn stuff about feminism. Do you think using the net has changed your ideas about feminist stuff at all? Do you think more guys than grrls use the net? How did you get into computers and stuff? If you feel like adressing any of these issues that would be way cool.


By Eloise on Thursday, October 1, 1998 - 04:38 am:

i'm 21 and i still haven't found friends who believe (as passionately as i do) in the same things i do. in my classes at school, where the majority of students are women (4:1) i'm still somehow tagged as the token feminist. yeh i'm proud to be.
but what bugs me most is that regardless of what i'm speaking about, somehow it always comes back to me being a feminist. women in my class have actually stopped me mid-discussion to point out that "you always have to bring up a feminist point". so i feel embarrassed and am more reluctant to talk about such things. it's so important to have input from a different perspective, particularly a feminist one.
i'm made to feel like i've just jumped up on my seat, pulled out a gun and forced everyone into believing my ideas.
i really get no support at school, i thought this was the place i would find like minded people.
i rely on the internet for not only feminist support but as a place i can find like minded people. by way of music, film...etc.
sometimes i think that if i was still in high school things would be easier. going backwards doesn't seem logical, right? or maybe if i were in a different country. i live in australia. big city. lots of people. yet still isolated.
my inspirations for continuing my beliefs (could anyone really ever abandon them?) come from places like this, books, zines & music. and i must admit everyday i feel smarter about it all. there are days when i think i have everything worked out.
i think it's important that we allow ourselves more channels for communication. look at alternative press..different opinions (this is where the internet plays a wonderful role), music, film. ...go against the grain. talk to people on buses and trains..in lines waiting for the toilet. i regret not talking to people more often. there is so much to learn that is not on tv or in a glossy magazine.

mynewdress@mailcity.com


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