Teenage suicide is a frigtening phenomina. Perhaps I'm not the right person to start this conversation because I've never been suicidal (or seriously depressed) but it has affected my life in that my sister lost a friend in highschool, I lost an aquantince last year and this year my highschool lost a boy I didn't know. I thought I should open this serious subject up. Not to depress everyone but maybe people can help each other deal with their own saddness or the grief of losing a friend/someone you knew. If no one uses this forum I will be very happy!! But I've opened it up because suicide is no longer something only adults struggle with.
i was suicidal in 6th grade because i was incredibly lonely and my parents neglected me when i needed them most....when i asked for therapy, they ignored me....i started writing and made a couple of incredible friends who are always there for me and now i'm starting to feel alot better about myself...i feel like i no longer have to wear a mask that i was wearing before...it's a wonderful feeling..."and i'll run naked through the streets without my mask on" preach on tori...
Hi,
When you feel suicidal, how do you know it's the real thing? I'm a middle class kid with all the frills and an uneventful life. If I ever feel shit it's cos of what's in my head and nothing else. But I'd feel guilty about ever complaining when people out there are destroyed by abuse, drugs, neglect, etc. I feel like I'm just making problems for myself when i get depressed. It's stupid, but you can't run away from your own mind, can you? I've thought about suicide, not necessarily doing it, but just about it. people condemn you as selfish or weak if you do it. In that case I'd hope people who kill themselves can't still hear what the world says about them. People kill themselves often to get away from bullying and slagging off, yet even when they're gone people still criticise. Sometimes it just feels that 'no-one would miss me anyway and their only stress would be that they would have to pay for a fucking funeral for me.'
Chas- You're right, you sometimes don't know if it's the real thing. I went through a really bad time last year, and for a while i thought about commiting suicide. Luckily i kinda woke up one day, i had a really good day and then i realised that suicide wouldn't be worth it. Now i look back really at that time and i'm really scared, but i think that all along i knew i wouldn't do it in the end. I think that suicide isn't something you should do, because no matter how bad it gets, there's always gonna be one good day, or one good time, or one smile, that you wouldn't have had if you'd commited suicide. And i think that that makes it all worth it.
Yfa: I think you're right. No matter how depressed you are (and I was extremely depressed last year), life constantly changes and so there is always a chance for things to get better. If you kill yourself there is no chance for that. I'm not saying things will get better overnight but they will sometime.
Life ALWAYS gets better, you've just got to hang in there and make life better for yourself... Yep, I've been severely depressed, but I found friends I could confide in, and my life's got a whole lot better!
We've had several suicides in my family including my grandmother & 2 of her siblings. The survivors were utterly devasted. They've managed to piece their lives back together, but I don't think they were ever the same (it's hard for me to say because this all happened before I was born). Please if you are thinking of killing yourself, talk to someone, get help & do whatever you have to do. You owe it to yourself & those who care about you. Even if it doesn't seem like there's anyone, there always is someone who cares.
You know when it's the real thing when you just go ahead and do. I nearly commited suicide because I was SOOOOO depressed that I desperately wanted to get to heaven and fast. But then I stopped to think about whether God agrees with suicide (which he doesn't), and then I thought of how upset people would be and then I realised that if I was set on doing it I wouldn't have stopped to think, I would have done it already. I turned fully to God and now I'm fine, I am living proof that God is good!!!!!
chas--hang in there....i went through exactly what you went through....i'm fucking serious, no joke...i tried to kill myself once, but the safety of the gun was on so it was pretty lame...things do get better...i'm not just saying that
I have a friend who use to be sudicidal and was seriously depressed.It kind of started as a small thing where she was getting depressed about how people were calling her ugly and also how her boyfriend treated her.It got into more serious things were like she was never the same she would never really do anything and would just worry about what other people think of her and when her boyfriend would break up with her.Then she tried to kill herself well never got close to it...but she would ask a friend of ours if she could give her a knife to kill herself and she tried electricuting herself but a friend stopped her.I thought it was just a joke at first but then some of her other friends found out and told the consuler.I found out at that time...about the depression&sudicidal stuff.She saw the consuler for awhile but i don't know what happened after that.I asked her about it about a month later when it was just her and me there and she denied it ever happening even though it did.And i thought she was better but now i don't know since right now she is kinda unstable.She just broke up with her boyfriend,and her dad left...she won't tell me about it...i didn't find it from her but another friend told me.Also there has been other things going on and she hasn't told me.I think she is depressed again cause she has been actin really wierd recently and has been acting like completely different people all the time she has like multiple personalities???Is that common after depression???And right now she isn't talkin to me like she use to,she isn't actin like herself and seems like somewhere else and won't talk to me alot.We have always been really good friends and have always been able to confide in each other.But right now...she doesn't seem like she can...and i feel really bad...because i want to help her...and the people that know aren't the greatest influence and have caused some of her problems.WHAT SHOULD I DO???PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!
Meg,
Endora,
Meg,
Endora,
Meg,
Endora,
Meg,
Meg,
P.S. You both could probably use some fun diversions, so try to get out together & do fun things too.
i have tried to commit suicide 3 times. i've gotten my stomach pumped at the er and have been committed to a mental hospital 4 times. i've been on countless drugs and in therapy. people say it gets better, but i guess there is something wrong with me because i dont feel any better. i tell my freinds and parents im doing fine, partly because i dont want to disappoint them and partly because i dont want to be committed again. i really feel my life is just a waste and i am burdening everyone with my depression. i dont know why i wrote this, please, dont listen to me. i guess things will get better, someday.
anonymous, i guess you don't need telling that your situation is very serious - but you reveal parts of the problem in what you said. You feel you're burdening people - there it is, that horrible guilt that gets us all. What is your crime, exactly, that makes you feel guilty? Having feelings? Isn't that natural? Why should you hide how you feel for other people's benefits? It's not as if you choose to feel this way, it's not as if you don't try to fight it. Bad feelings are a gut reaction, you don't 'decide' to have them. If you get them, it means that something is shitty. The bottom line is, DON'T FEEL GUILTY FOR NOT BEING HAPPY WITH YOUR LOT. ASK FOR HELP ANY TIME YOU WANT IT. DON'T PRETEND. If your friends and parents love you then they've got to love you whether you disappoint them or not - and that goes for helping you and sticking by you. Please, anon. Don't fake it any longer. If you can't tell people your true feelings when you're suicidal, when can you tell them?
PS, anon - at the end you said 'don't listen to me, i guess things will get better' - and I bet you said that cos you thought you had to apologise for complaining, though you didn't mean it. You don't sound like you believe things will get better, and I think you do need someone to listen to you. Well, I'm listening, OK? I was there too. I hope you get decent help, I sincerely do.
but i love my freinds and family to put them through what i did the last time. i just dont feel its worth it. i mean someone is going to have to feel shitty, its either me or my freinds and family. i think it would be better if it was me.
it's really humble of you to think like that but isn't it going to hurt your family anyway if you lose it because you can't confide in them? You are putting a huge gap between you and the people you love and if they find that out then they will feel awful that they couldn't help. And if you keep this inside you then you may not last long, and how will the people you love feel then? Did they complain last time for what you put them through? Were they angry at you, did they tell you not to do it again? Cos that would be a pretty big deterrent, I guess, BUT-
Hey thank you Endora and Alexis for giving me such good advice.It really helped me and she has gotten alot better over the last few weeks.She is back to her normal self again and were talking alot to each other again like we use to.
I want to be commited.
why would you want to be committed?
Then you wouldn't have to do anything, and it would prove all my beliefs and ideas about society. Thank you for asking.
Then you wouldn't have to do anything, and it would prove all my beliefs and ideas about society. Thank you for asking.
BEING COMMITTED IS LIKE SO SCARY. YOU ARE A PRETTY STABLE PERSON, BUT YOU JUST HAD A BAD DAY, WEEK, MONTH ETC... YOU ARE PUT IN A ***LOCKED*** WARD IN A HOSPITAL, AND IF YOU THINK YOU ARE READY TO LEAVE, WELL, TOO BAD THATS UP TO THE ARROGANT DOCTOR TO DECIDE. YOU ARE TOLD WHEN AND WHAT TO EAT, WHEN YOU ARE "ALLOWED" TO HAVE A CIGG, THEY CAN GIVE RANDOM ROOM CHECKS AT ANY TIME AND IF THEY FIND SOMETHING THAT THEY CLAIM IS "UNSAFE"-LIKE YOUR SLIGHTLY SHREDDED BABY BLANKET- IT IS TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU AND LOCKED IN A ROOM WHERE YOU HAVE TO SIGN IT OUT. YOU ARE ONLY ALLOWED TO SEE YOUR FAMILY AND FREINDS AT CERTAIN TIMES IN THE DAY, USUALLY WHICH ARE VERY BRIEF. LET'S SAY YOU GET MAD AT THAT ARROGANT DOCTOR AND OUT OF A FIT OF ANGER KICK SOMETHING, SAY LIKE A GARBAGE CAN? WELL, YOU ARE DEAMED A THREAT TO YOURSELF AND OTHERS AND ARE LITERALLY TIED DOWN TO A BED IN A BARE ROOM AND PUMPED WITH THORZINE, EVEN IF YOU DONT WANT ANY. GRANTED, MENTAL HOSPITALS ARE THERE TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE AND CAN BE A GOOD THING AT TIMES, ALL TOO OFTEN THEY GO OVERBOARD. SO PLEASE, DONT SAY "I WANT TO BE COMMITTED". IF YOU THINK ALL YOU DO IS SIT AROUND ALL DAY AND WATCH TV AND EAT AND SLEEP, YOU ARE PARTLY RIGHT. BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO GO TO THESE STUPID THERAPY GROUPS AND TALK ABOUT "HOW YOU FEEL" FOR HOURS AT A TIME. AND IF YOU REFUSE, YOUR "PRIVELIGES" LIKE SMOKING ARE TAKEN AWAY AND YOU COULD BE IN THERE LONGER. AND WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT TO DO ANYTHINHG? AND WHAT IDEAS ABOUT SOCIETY?
MENTAL HOSPITALS SUCK,
Anonymous,
Mental Hospitals Suck,
Anonymous,
Mental Hospitals Suck,
If we all sat alone and thought about things would we progress much faster? It's an interesting idea, but why ignore all the things already done? Why re-invent the wheel just so we can work things out for ourselves? Perhaps we should sit around and develop relativity from first principles and ignore all the work on it or perhaps we should take the existing knowledge and build on it? Should we ignore, for example, all of Einstein's work so we can learn these things on our own. Would this be sensible? We would still know less than any University physics student and have achieved nothing except proving what was already known? Why even do this? Would it not be better to learn from what has already been learnt and then test this out if we think it's wrong? If Einstein was born in these times would it be better for him to sit around and develop physics theories from first principles or build upon current relativity/quantum theories? What would progress the world further?
Dear Mr. X,
Mr. X,
MHS,
Hi I'm new at this,I was reading all the comments
Mr. X
Everyone has felt helpless and has wanted to die atleast once in their life. Suicide is a simple way to get away from the pain. It's a selfish decision and a painful thing for the survivers. I've been to far too many funerals then a regular 16 year old should have to have gone through. Please anyone who is depressed or thinking about suicide think about the reasons you might want to die and not the only the reasons you want to die. Thankyou, Angela
By Lanya on Thursday, August 13, 1998 - 01:17 am:
By Lady_die on Thursday, August 13, 1998 - 11:53 am:
I was very depressive for about 7 years. At the end I was seriously addicted to valium and rohypnol. I didn't do anything else than smoking pot all day and lying in bed watching cartoon network. I felt way sorry for myself. I thought about suicide a lot, and tried to kill myself a couple of times. I couldn't handle my own thoughts,my own reflection in the mirror,my own voice......I was a pathetic pile of shit.
But then,last summer ('97) july 19 a good friend committed suicide. I hung himself up in his house. his girlfriend found him hanging there. He was only 20 years old.
With a large group of friends we went to the funeral. Nobody said a word,and everybody was so sad and we needed eachother. We became closer than ever.
I came out of my depression. I learned that it is useless to end my life. That I can make something out of it. That I have friends.
Tommy's suicide was a horrible thing,but it saved my life. I sometimes visit his grave and thank him for learning me that life is important.
Thank you Tommy,for saving my life.
"Don't kill yourself 'cause people can't deal with your brilliance"
-Team dresch-
By Chas on Thursday, August 13, 1998 - 03:28 pm:
I've thought that thought. But I knew in the back of my mind I'd never go thru with anything, purely because I couldn't stand all the blood and pain. If only you could just go to sleep and then not wake up the next morning. or disentegrate or something. But then it's not my body that I ever wanted to get rid of. It was my mind.
By Yfa on Thursday, August 13, 1998 - 05:20 pm:
luv,
yfa
By Laurel on Friday, August 14, 1998 - 09:51 am:
By Soph on Tuesday, August 25, 1998 - 12:53 pm:
You just have to believe in yourself.
Hope this helps, sorry if it doesn't
Luv Soph
By Endora on Tuesday, August 25, 1998 - 08:42 pm:
There's an amazing short story by Ursule Molinaro called Insufficient Rope. It's about a woman who kills herself, but it doesn't end the pain. While she can't respond to anything going on around her, she observes it all. For example, she can smell coffee, but she can't taste or drink it. She can see her lover weep, but she can't hold him. I think it's in her Thirteen Stories collection.
By Rhiannon on Sunday, September 6, 1998 - 03:11 pm:
By Meredith on Wednesday, September 23, 1998 - 08:55 pm:
By Meg on Thursday, September 24, 1998 - 08:01 pm:
*MeG*
By Endora on Thursday, September 24, 1998 - 10:57 pm:
It's hard to say. Maybe the counselor wasn't that helpful. Like every profession, they have a few who shouldn't be in the field. A friend of mine reacted badly to another friend's death & started talking about how she wanted to take a whole bottle of asprin. A couple of us went to see a counselor who said that her comments were a normal reaction to grief. We ended up going to the university health center & got someone who made sense. Maybe she needs to see another counselor or health professional.
Is there a Good Samitarians or other Suicide Prevention group in your area? The link below is to a San Francisco web site. I don't know where you live, otherwise I'd look for a more local site. If there's not a listing in your phone book, let me know & I'll try to find one for you. I hope things work out well for your friend.
Suicide Prevention
By Meg on Friday, September 25, 1998 - 05:40 pm:
Thanks i looked at that Sucicide Prevention site and i looked at warning signs and most of them fit her description.Had a recent loss,been acting really different kind of like she is somewhere else,lost interest in stuff,always looks like she is lonely,and acting different all the time.I don't know but i think she might be taking drugs..i don't know but that was also one of the warning signs.And people have been harassing her so that could lead to it to.And she was so close to her dad,not her mom,she needs her dad...to get through stuff...because her mom is always telling her that she is not good enough,she should lose some weight(believe she is not fat at all she is about 5'2 and 100 pounds),and always saying she is not good enough.Her mom also tells my mom about how she isn't good enough.I think that if she had her mom's support it could help so much but her mom has beliefs and is not going change them.She really needs her dad now.What now???
*MeG*
By Endora on Friday, September 25, 1998 - 10:03 pm:
Have you talked to your mom about this? Is there anyway she could approach one or both of your friend's parents? Someone should defintely try to get her father back in the picture. That's still his daughter & she needs him. Sounds like your friend's mom is a major part of the problem. Any chance they'd go for family counseling? Sometimes judges will order that as part of divorce proceedings.
Is there a teacher or school nurse or anyone like that? Also, were you able to find a suicide prevention group in your area? Beyond what I've said, I don't have much to add & sounds like this situation's very serious & it'd be a good idea to involve someone who's had experience w/suicide prevention.
By Meg on Friday, September 25, 1998 - 10:41 pm:
My mom is well aware of the sucide thing and everything that has happened and also my friend's mom knows about this cause when she started seeing a consuler(she might still be seeing her i have to find out)they had to call her mom.The thing is she doesn't know that i know about her dad moving out(they didn't get divorce but he doesn't live there anymore)a friend of both of ours told me,knows why,but said i have to talk to her about it.My mom says i shouldn't ask her that i should wait for her to tell me.But it has been over a month and she hasn't said anything even though i know it is true.She moved into her parents room(when he moved out)and her mom into hers.She didn't say anything to me about it...i would think she would be wondering why i thought she moved into her parents room though.Her father anyway has a job about two hours from where she lives (that's where he is) and i think that they will see each other again but he won't be a full time father.Its not like they are divorced and they have the custody thing going on...he is full right to see her...just he doesn't have time to know to drive so far.Her mom yeah,is a very bad influence...and well that's her mom so you can't change that but maybe her mom could go into consuling with her...so they could have better communication and how to treat her when she is so fragile.It was a school consuler who was helping her and some teachers know so i guess they be careful with her or something.So my question is
what should i do know-i don't even know if she has a problem but i read that relapses are common and alot of the warning signs fit her description.
Know what?
*MeG*
By Endora on Saturday, September 26, 1998 - 06:02 pm:
It might be a good idea for you to talk to someone at a local suicide prevention center about what you can do as her friend. It sounds like you're already doing as much as you can, (being willing to listen, when she's ready to talk), but they would be able to tell you if there was anything else you could do. Also, they have training & experience w/suicide prevention.
I'm hesitant to suggest anything further because I don't have the training & experience to do so & the stakes are too high to guess at it. The situation was different w/my friend as it was a short-term crisis, rather than a long-term crisis.
If you haven't found a suicide prevention center, I'd suggest checking the phone book under the section w/crisis hotlines or calling a local hospital for a reference. Let me know if you need help tracking one down.
By Meg on Sunday, September 27, 1998 - 10:02 am:
Well,she is back to her normal self at least right now she is...well ever since yesterday.And i am really confused.Before she was acting so distance but for like the first in a really long time she is acting normal.I would do that but she is seeing that consuler and they are specially trained in that area so i guess they would help her with any special help she needs.When you are depressed can you have bad days and than every once and a while have a good day?I wrote her(when she wasn't talking to me)a letter that said that even if you won't open up to me about anything that might be going wrong just find another friend or family member to open up to cause its not good to keep something to yourself.And said if
you ever want to talk or me to be there for you i
always will.Every thing i said okay?Well,thanks for your help.
*MeG*
By Alexis on Wednesday, September 30, 1998 - 05:05 pm:
It's interesting to see the suicide issue from a friend's perspective. I took an excessive amount of Advil when I was in 8th grade and wound up in the hospital with IV's going through me, and I always wondered what it was like for my family and friends going through that.
Speaking from experience, I think the only thing you can do is be a good friend. Don't take her issues upon yourself, because it's impossible to solve them that way. When it really comes down to it, she needs to fix herself over time.
Perhaps you might suggest some sort of therapy for her, or even for your self. Watching a friend go through this sort of thing has to be emotionally tolling on you. Social workers can be great listeners, and help you deal with problems in a controlled and organized manner.
Hang in there.
-Alexis
By Endora on Sunday, October 4, 1998 - 04:57 pm:
Sorry it took me so long to reply. Glad to hear things seem to be going better w/your friend. She's going through a lot, so ups & downs are to be expected. It sounds like you're being a good friend, just try to be there for her & if you see a downturn that makes you think she might be thinking about suicide, you may want to talk to your mother or someone at a prevention hotline.
By Endora on Sunday, October 4, 1998 - 04:58 pm:
By Anonymous on Wednesday, October 14, 1998 - 10:10 pm:
By Suki on Saturday, October 17, 1998 - 08:37 am:
By Suki on Saturday, October 17, 1998 - 08:39 am:
By Anonymous on Saturday, October 17, 1998 - 11:48 pm:
By Suki on Sunday, October 18, 1998 - 09:01 am:
if you can't get help from them, I urge you to get it from somewhere. You cannot always cope alone. Things don't always go away just because you push them down to the bottom of your guts; they just fester there.
By MeG on Sunday, October 18, 1998 - 02:13 pm:
Yeah,and i like getting a person's view of who was or is sudicidal and what is going on in there head.Believe Anonymous u won't dissapoint them if u tell them how u truly feel.They all care about u and they want to know how u are doing.Your not bothering them with it to tell them,they want to know so they can help get through it.
*MeG*
By Anonymous on Tuesday, October 20, 1998 - 04:50 pm:
By Anonymous on Tuesday, October 20, 1998 - 10:08 pm:
By Anonymous on Wednesday, October 21, 1998 - 01:11 am:
By Anonymous on Wednesday, October 21, 1998 - 01:12 am:
By MENTAL HOSPITALS SUCK on Wednesday, October 21, 1998 - 04:54 pm:
By Anonymous on Thursday, October 22, 1998 - 01:40 am:
Apparantly you don't know me. You can't say anything for me. I am not having a bad day. My life is happy. I don't need simple pleasures to keep me content. I see nothing bad about anything you said. I don't want to see my family. I would like to be by myself all the time. All I do is think about things all the time. I don't need tv. I am not afraid of death. If you met me you would see that I am probably the most sane and emotionally stable person in the entire world. The only problem is that I don't fit in today's society. It is too primitive for my beliefs and I will not sell myself out. Who said I would want to leave the hospital? I don't get angry. I don't need simple physical pleasures like smoking because I don't believe in the physical world. Only the mental and spiritual. All I want is a place to think. All I want is a room that doesn't have to have anything in it and food to live on as long as my mind is free. For your first question, I would have to say that I would not want to work or go to school and waste my time, just do what I want to, which is think. For your second question, I don't discuss my ideas about society because they are mine. I believe that every person should learn by looking in to theirselves, not be programmed by school. So develop your own ideas about society. You don't like to be committed because you want to be in the outside world. I really am indifferent, but it would be nice not to worry about paying the bills or getting a good grade. If my ideas sound crazy to you, I think your belief systems in to simple to understand them. Thank you for the reply.
By Mental Hospitals Suck on Thursday, October 22, 1998 - 01:05 pm:
You sound like a very intelligent person. However, what's the point of having all those ideas if you dont want to put them into practice? And if you are mentally sane, and you dont want to have to worry about paying bills or work or going to school then thats just being lazy. And yes school can teach you some pretty useless things, but if you go through school you can go on to graduate school and study whatever you want. Then you can use that information to help other people. If you think society is too "primitive" then get off your butt and do something about it. Segregating yourself from society does not solve the problem. Finally, you don't know me, you don't know what I have been through, or even what my belief system is. So don't sit there and judge me by calling my beliefs simple. Please write back, I am enjoying this debate with you.
By Anonymous on Thursday, October 22, 1998 - 04:55 pm:
I do put my ideas in practice, I just don't discuss them with others because I want people to think for themselves and for their own beliefs. School is made to prepare you for this society by teaching you things that you don't really care about. Hey, if you're into marine biology or something then it would be justified to teach you some things about it, but there is basically no need for some other subjects. The kind of things I'm into, they can't teach in school (or at all for that matter) so school is useless to me. It would be a waste of my time because it would be stopping me from what I want to do. I personally don't believe in learning from what someone else figured out and wrote down in a book. I would have to figure that out myself. I don't think you need school to help others (I'm just totally against the whole idea of school). I am lazy by society's standard of what a person should do, but I am a workaholic by my own standards. And about society, I do intend on changing it. I'm going to go to the most influential place on earth: Hollywood. Today's society really isn't a problem because it is still evolving (It's amazing what we have accomplished just this century). I just would like to speed it up a bit. Finally, I didn't mean to offend you with my last statement, I was just trying to say that if you thought I was crazy from my previous post, you probably just didn't understand how I think from the little information that I gave you about my life. That's all. I didn't mean to call you anything. Debate? I don't think this is a debate because both of our views are justified. Lets just call it a discussion. See Ya.
By Mental Hospitals Suck on Thursday, October 22, 1998 - 06:06 pm:
I hate to tell you, but you cant go to Hollywood in a mental hospital. And yes people should learn for themselves, but new ideas and inventions are built from other people's mistakes and triumphs. And when you share your ideas with other's it does not mean your learning for them, its just giving them knowledge and then power to learn for themselves. Someone must have taught you to read and write. And views on society, maybe no one directly taught them to you, but through other people you have learned what you like and what you want to change. And all the accomplishments that have been made in this century were made by by people who learned something from someone else, whether it be in school,from their family members, or a stranger they passed by on the street. Many abolitionists were not former slaves, but white northerners who read and learned how the slaves were treated. They then took that knowledge and applied it. And today, when I read about the abolitionists, I will take that knowledge and use it to help other injustices in the world. I can't learn about things on my own when they don't exist in my small, isolated part of the world. And how would the world progress if all the great inventors, activists and philosophers just wanted to escape from the world that labled them differnt and just sit in a bare room and think? Even though I dont know you or your ideas, they must be better than being confined to a mental hospital.
By Anonymous on Thursday, October 22, 1998 - 11:58 pm:
When you said "you cant go to Hollywood in a mental hospital" you probably misunderstood what I meant by my original post. It was just a humorous allusion to a previous post, I wasn't being serious. If I really wanted to do that, I would be at one right now. I was just saying how a life in the hospital would be an acceptable form of living for me. When you talk about sharing ideas, its probably just that I have had different experiences that you when dealing with that subject. I believe that you have a stonger foundation if you come up with it yourself, than from learning from something else (ex. The Bible or someone teaching the difference between right and wrong). When you say "through other people you have learned what you like and what you want to change." This is where you are wrong about me. I have made it up from about the start. Most of my life I have been segregated from society and left to think for myself about what is really going on. You also say that all the accomplishments made were by people who learned from others. I am really wondering what took so long to achieve those accomplishments. Much of this can be blamed upon the Bible but I won't get into that (unless you want me too). And do you really think this world is a better (if there is such a thing) place because of people learning from each other? I personally don't and that is probably where we differ from each other. You might make an arguement about technology and how it is stacked information, but in this triumph I believe that we have lost some of our humanity, which I believe to be more valuable. Funny how you mentioned slavery in that post, oh well, nevermind that. You also say, "I can't learn about things on my own when they don't exist in my small, isolated part of the world." I believe I can. I believe that everything there ever is to know, you already know, it's just a matter of realizing it. And about your last question, I think the world would always progress, no matter what happens, just at different speeds. Sitting in a bare room to think is just a way of forming your own ideas, and I believe that if everyone did this, the world would progress much faster than it is presently. You probably think (if i'm not mistaken) that my destination in life is a mental hospital. Well, its not. I was just kidding. One thing I can tell from this discussion is that you really believe in what you, uh... well, believe (even if it is different, and probably should) and that is an admirable trait. The bottom line is that we are different people with different experiences that really can't be argued because most are opinion based. See ya.
By Mr X on Friday, October 23, 1998 - 07:56 am:
Perhaps I should sit in a room and try and work out how to make something which could transport me from a to b, not bothering to learn about the internal combustion engine (hideously inefficient though it is), turbines, etc. instead working it all out on my own. Maybe my time would be better spent learning how these work and then working out a more efficient or better version/development from them...
Is it truly a better idea to ignore all those who have gone before us, ignoring the sacrifices and hardships they endured to seek out knowledge that we can now obtain by simply opening a library book? Your argument seems to imply we should all live in our own little worlds discovering things ourselves and ignore all of this.
Your last line seems odd - you can't debate your different points because they're opinions? Surely opinions should be backed up by some form of evidence? An opinion that you can't argue is surely an invalid opinion...
By Mental Hospitals Suck on Friday, October 23, 1998 - 09:14 am:
Although I dont agree with anonymous, i do not think her(or his) opinions are invalid. That is the way he/she believes and nobody's opinions can be invalid. That goes against the very definition of an opinion. Further more, I respect anonymous's opinions, even though i strongly disagree with them, because he/she is saying what they truly believe and is not being influenced by other people and especially religion.(I too think the bible is the cause of many of the world's problems and injustices) So, just as you are entitled to your opinion, i am entitled to mine and anonymous is entitled to theirs.
Mental Hospitals Suck
By Anonymous on Friday, October 23, 1998 - 12:40 pm:
See, you are talking about the technology arguement and that could be a valid point on your behalf, but not mine. We just think differently. Just incase anyone wants to know, if someone was in a discussion, and someone else proves their opinion wrong, then I believe that it was just that that person didn't give enough thought to what he was arguing and shouldn't have been arguing at all.
By Mr X on Monday, October 26, 1998 - 09:24 am:
I didn't say his/her opinions were invalid, but that an opinion you can't argue vs one that can be argued seems to have the strength on the side that can be argued for. Otherwise it's like saying I'm right because it's my opinion and not because that opinion can be backed up by facts/evidence/etc. in some way. I used to know someone exactly like this, no matter how much you showed them how wrong they were about something (via facts) he'd end up coming out with, but I'm right. It was kinda difficult to actually have a debate against that sort of attitude... and that was the point I was trying to make, saying that two people can't debate because the sides are opinion-based seems too much like a cop-out, like I know I'm right, so agree to disagree. That isn't to say the other person's opinions are invalid, just that an opinion you're not prepared to argue doesn't sound like one you'd like held up to too much scrutiny...nobody's opinion can be invalid? What about if I hold an opinion that could be shown to be undeniably false. For example, there are people who say the world is flat. This can be proved by a short space journey or a long airplane ride. Does that mean that their opinion that the world is flat is still valid? Personally, I think everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but just because they are doesn't mean you shouldn't question them on it or seek to find weaknesses in people's arguments. Only by doing this can truly great ideas come about.
Anon,
I used the technology argument because it happened to be an easy one to pick and also because it is a dominant field, though the principle applies to other fields just as easily (eg philosophy, chemistry (possibly still technology), woodwork, etc.) I like the idea of whoever's opinion was proved wrong didn't give enough thought and shouldn't have been arguing for it anyway. Is this to say then that they shouldn't have had it proved wrong if they had thought about it more or that they shouldn't have even been arguing the point in the first place? The former means no end to the argument (one person wins, other person then should think more, therefore wins, original person thinks more, wins, etc) and the latter means you must accept the facts as presented to you and not question them. Obviously, there are certain things which are undeniable facts and the questioning of them is pointless, but there are many others that should be questioned so we understand more and possibly find flaws in current thinking...
By Anonymous on Monday, October 26, 1998 - 09:53 pm:
and it's strange how I came upon this page,
because I've been feeling so down today again,
I never express my self, but you people seem to know what you are talking about, I have been suicidel for some years now, I have been on every anti-depressen their is,I have an alergic reaction
to all of them,and now I'm on my own with my problem, until january when I can see another specialist,I can't talk to my family because they always say they don't want to hear about it, and to talk to them when I feel better, because they
don't want to feel depressed or responsable if
I should try to do any thing stupid,so I always pretened that every thing is fine, until now I can't take it any more, I lost all my friends
because I wasn't cheerfull,and my three sisters
dont want to hear about it, and I don't know how to be happy,I have a few health problems, because I got beaten up pretty bad,a few years ago, and can't work any more,have a spinal injury,
and was told that because of it now I have fibromyalgia,and bolgging disc disorder,
I alway's feel like I'm a burden to every one around me,I have a boy friend but he does not want me to mention any emotional problems I might have,if I do he gives me the silent treatment, and I can't take it, I feel lonley enough as it is
so I try to pretend that I'm happy, sorry for putting my problems on any one out their,thank's for listening.
By Anonymous on Tuesday, October 27, 1998 - 12:58 am:
I thought this discussion was over, but apparently it isn't. You say other fields like philosophy, chemistry, woodwork, etc wouldn't be the same. I don't believe this. I think philosophy should be a personal thing and that no one should take ideas from others (just my ideas). As for chemisty and woodwork, I would include them both in technology. It's just a progression. As for your second question, I would say the first one. It is a no end argument and that is why I call it a discussion and not a debate. This is just used to find out who really believes what they are saying and if they think for themselves. You also talk about certain facts. Call me crazy if you want to, but I don't believe in them (Just my ideas again).
By Anonymous on Wednesday, November 4, 1998 - 01:17 am:
In loving memory of Joyce Jensen 1981-1997 and Chris Stewert 1982-1998