Day 309 - 03 Dec 96 - Page 45


     
     1        someone who is not utterly indifferent to animals' welfare
     2        but is prepared to countenance, and culpably to
     3        countenance, certain inhumane practices; and to prove utter
     4        indifference or, indeed, indifference to animal welfare
     5        involves a much greater hurdle than just proving that they
     6        countenance, wrongly countenance, practices here and there
     7        which are cruel or inhumane.
     8
     9   MR. RAMPTON:  I do not know what the opposite of indifference
    10        actually is; perhaps something like caring about.  But it
    11        would have to be said by anybody that if the practices were
    12        as extreme and as cruel as the leaflet suggests, not just
    13        by the particular words used and particular descriptions
    14        given, but by the use of the word "torture", it would be
    15        very difficult to see how a person who was responsible who
    16        countenanced that kind of suffering on the part of the
    17        animals and at the same time said, "Yes, but I am not
    18        indifferent to their suffering", how he would have any
    19        credibility at all.
    20
    21   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  If I disagreed with that, then "utter
    22        indifference" falls, does it not?
    23
    24   MR. RAMPTON:  It does.  But your Lordship's meaning would then
    25        be somewhat weaker than mine, that is all.
    26
    27   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  That may be.  I see that.
    28
    29   MR. RAMPTON:  I really mean -----
    30
    31   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I am aware that one must not intellectualise
    32        too much, but it could well be said -- I can see that you
    33        can say, well, if you put in "cruel" instead of
    34        "indifferent", "cruel" comes within the compass of utter
    35        indifference resulting in -- being culpably responsible for
    36        some cruel practices comes within the much larger compass
    37        of utter indifference to welfare.
    38
    39   MR. RAMPTON:  I would say so; though I am bound to say I do not
    40        know that it does make as much difference as your Lordship
    41        seems to say that it does, because, as I say, if the person
    42        who is culpably -- and I emphasise the word "culpably" --
    43        responsible for those horrendous practices has not got at
    44        least a degree of indifference to that suffering, then it
    45        would not happen.
    46
    47   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I appreciate that.  But, I mean, this may not
    48        be a view or a standpoint which Ms. Steel and Mr. Morris
    49        share, but at the moment I have absolutely no difficulty
    50        with the farmer who is a very caring stockman and is far 
    51        from indifferent to the welfare of his animals but, for 
    52        commercial expediency, condones certain practices, 
    53        sometimes in the life and death of his animals which the
    54        outsider would say are just not good enough.  But to call
    55        him indifferent to the welfare of the animals would be a
    56        misportrayal of his attitude towards them.
    57
    58   MR. RAMPTON:  I entirely accept that; and if your Lordship
    59        wishes to jettison "utterly indifferent" for those reasons,
    60        I am not going to argue.  But I will comment, if I may,

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