Day 180 - 31 Oct 95 - Page 39


     
     1
     2   Q.   That is effectively what you are saying on that page, is
     3        it?
     4        A.  It is, yes.
     5
     6   MR. MORRIS:  And, presumably, there will be housing benefit paid
     7        also by the State on top of that?
     8        A.  Those are the benefits that were available then.
     9        I have not calculated these figures for 1995, but I could
    10        do.  So, if I just say -----
    11
    12   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Would there be housing benefit paid on top of
    13        it in 1984?
    14        A.  No, not in 1984.  So, the -----
    15
    16   Q.   That is why I wrote it down the way I did.  What you are
    17        saying, in effect, is that the threshold wage by the
    18        Council of Europe calculation in this country would, in
    19        real terms, be about the equivalent of the total State
    20        benefits paid?
    21        A.  Well -----
    22
    23   Q.   Or is it?  I want to make sure I have understood.
    24        A.  Yes.  You see, that is where the figures were
    25        coinciding at that point.  In 1995, however, the Council of
    26        Europe figure is now well above the benefit levels, because
    27        benefits have failed to keep pace with the movement in
    28        wages over that 10 year period.  So, in fact, the linkage
    29        is broken.  I am afraid that is part of history.  I think
    30        one would -----
    31
    32   Q.   I am going to put down: "In 1995 the Council of Europe
    33        figure would be" -- can I put "significantly greater than
    34        the benefit figure"?
    35        A.  Absolutely.
    36
    37   MR. MORRIS:  So, Family Credit has been something that has come
    38        in since 1984?
    39        A.  Family Credit is now the benefit for the low paid; and
    40        the Family Credit bill is effectively -- I mean, you
    41        describe it however you will as a benefit, but also, as
    42        commentators have said, it is a subsidy on low pay.
    43        I would certainly -----
    44
    45   Q.   Subsidy on the companies?
    46        A.  Effectively; and it is a massive subsidy to the tune of
    47        approximately £1 billion per year to the public purse.
    48        Expenditure on Family Credit has risen very significantly,
    49        even in the last two years since the abolition of the Wages
    50        Council minimum, because it has meant far more ----- 
    51 
    52   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I set you off on this chain, because I wanted 
    53        to make sure I did not misinterpret what you put on that
    54        page.  But I do not think there is any need, Mr. Morris, to
    55        go into it any more deeply.
    56
    57   MR. MORRIS:  Just one final point on that.  If Family Credit is
    58        a subsidy for the companies for paying a low wage, what is
    59        your view about housing benefits?
    60

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