Day 077 - 25 Jan 95 - Page 44
1 the varieties of bacteria which may be found in food but
2 upon their quantity?
3 A. Yes, because of the toxins from the bacteria. If you
4 have a very high count, you have a very high toxin level.
5 That is when you get illness.
6
7 Q. We see that there is a spread for "passable" between
8 500,000 and 10 to the six which is how many?
9
10 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Five million.
11
12 THE WITNESS: Five million.
13
14 MR. RAMPTON: Five million. Yes. Then "unsatisfactory" is in
15 excess of that amount?
16 A. Correct.
17
18 Q. So far you are aware, is that a proper scientific basis on
19 which to set these figures?
20 A. By usage, yes. I mean, we have used it for a number of
21 years.
22
23 Q. A piece of McDonald's meat which has a TVC or meat destined
24 for McDonald's of, let us say, a "satisfactory" quality,
25 would it matter so long as it did not contain E.coli?
26 A. It would matter in so far that we also specifically
27 look and identify one organism, salmonella.
28
29 Q. Can I preface what I am next going to ask by asking you
30 this: What are the bacteria which in sufficient quantity
31 become pathogens in humans that might be found in your
32 products?
33 A. Staphylococcusaurus, staphylococcusalmus, salmonella
34 and E.coli.
35
36 Q. You do not know anything about the poultry trade, do you?
37 A. I know a little but not a lot.
38
39 Q. We will leave them out of it. Of those four organisms you
40 have just named, the two kinds of staphylococcus,
41 salmonella and E.coli in this form, which is the one which
42 causes you the most concern, if any?
43 A. E.coli.
44
45 Q. What is the reason for that?
46 A. Well, because E.coli 0157 : H is an E.coli which you or
47 I could have in our intestines and it is non-pathogenic,
48 but another person in this room could get that particular
49 disease and it becomes pathogenic.
50
51 Q. Are the consequences for human beings worse, better or
52 similar for E.coli and for salmonella? It is not a very
53 well-phrased question, but do you understand what I mean?
54 A. I think I understand what you mean. Salmonella will
55 give you a very, very bad attack of food poisoning which in
56 the majority of cases is cured. E.coli can be very
57 dangerous and in a bad outbreak it is very hard to cure,
58 but I must qualify that by saying I am not a doctor.
59
60 Q. No, I understand that. But we are, perhaps his Lordship
