Day 113 - 03 Apr 95 - Page 51


     
     1
     2   Q.   Forget the sheep for the moment?
     3        A.  Yes, sorry.
     4
     5   Q.   I think Dr. Gregory in his statement anyway said that the
     6        prevalence of imperfect stunning at the abattoir he
     7        surveyed for the purposes of this case was 3.7 per cent,
     8        and a survey of 27 beef abattoirs conducted in 1987
     9        involving 1,944 animals, this value was 6.6 per cent.
    10
    11   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  That 3.7 per cent included the man who shot
    12        again, was it not, where it was not known whether there was
    13        an imperfect stun; is that right?
    14
    15   MR. MORRIS:  It may well be right.
    16
    17   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  The point being it might in fact have been a
    18        perfect stun but he was prepared to infer the slaughterman
    19        had some query about it or he would not have done it.
    20        A.  That is difficult, my Lord, to be sure that the animal
    21        is insentient.  The law requires instantaneous loss of
    22        sentience.  If you do not have the sophisticated equipment,
    23        the elaborate equipment that Neville Gregory has got, you
    24        have to rely on, certainly in the circumstances of a
    25        slaughterhouse, matters like the corneal reflex and you do
    26        not have much chance to look at those.  I think Neville
    27        Gregory has found when he has been round slaughterhouses
    28        that when they are in full operation they do not
    29        particularly like it if you go groping around to see
    30        whether the animals flick their eyelids if you poke your
    31        finger in, but anyway it is an uncertain test.
    32
    33   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  You seem to be at the moment to be relying
    34        upon Dr. Gregory's findings as to the source of your
    35        information.  Do you have anything to add from your own
    36        experience?
    37        A.  Yes, I would say it is about the same, but I take great
    38        respect because he has looked at rather more than I have.
    39        He has done it with better statistics and with more
    40        elaborate investigation.
    41
    42   MR. RAMPTON:  My Lord, if this witness is going to defer to
    43        Dr. Gregory on these matters, it would save an awful lot of
    44        time if he said so, so I shall not have to cross-examine
    45        him at all then.
    46
    47   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I think it may be in some instances you will,
    48        but so far on more than one occasion where you have
    49        depended upon what Dr. Gregory has found, you have said so.
    50        A.  Yes. 
    51 
    52   Q.   When you have done that I am assuming that, in a sense, you 
    53        are deferring to him.  So if your experience is in any way
    54        different I would like you to tell me so?
    55        A.  Yes, I find the same, I am really confirming it, that
    56        we both agree, but the figures might be slightly different
    57        at certain times.  I think you quoted a figure of his of
    58        five years ago -- no, 1988, was it?
    59
    60   MR. MORRIS:  1987.  I think the lower -----

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