Day 180 - 31 Oct 95 - Page 66


     
     1   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  He did say, I think -- and if one is going to
     2        do close reasoning on things like this, I mean, it may or
     3        may not help, but if one if you want to do close reasoning,
     4        amongst all the documents we have in this case, I am sure
     5        we will find a document which tells us what someone was
     6        starting at at a certain period of time, and then you can
     7        pursue your point.
     8
     9        The last thing I will say is, do not lose sight of what
    10        I said earlier.  By all means, use Mr. Alimi, or someone
    11        like that, when you have actually got some details of the
    12        hours he was working over a fortnight; you know the rates
    13        he was on.  It is pretty well, if my recollection is right,
    14        at the time we have been looking at the Wages Council
    15        figures, and you should be able to do some prima facie sum,
    16        so we can actually see whether in a fortnight where he
    17        worked 98 hours, for instance, he was likely to come out
    18        short on the figure which the Wages Council figures were
    19        giving.
    20
    21   MS. STEEL:  I think it is difficult because it is fortnightly.
    22        But, also, I just want to make the point that that is not
    23        our position.  Our position is they should have been paying
    24        on top of the premium rate.
    25
    26   MR. JUSTICE BELL: I can only suggest that it might be my
    27        position; and you will do at well at least to do some sums
    28        and see if it helps you.  If it does not help you, so be
    29        it.
    30
    31   MR. MORRIS:  I think there is an important point, that it cannot
    32        be -- in a case of libel, we are talking about freedom of
    33        speech to criticise various practices; and it cannot be
    34        that you cannot criticise those practices unless they are
    35        illegal.  I mean, the point is that we are entitled to say
    36        McDonald's is low pay, if it is under £200 a week.
    37
    38   MR. JUSTICE BELL: Of course you are.  All I am saying is, if you
    39        sit down for 10 minutes and do some sums, you may show, on
    40        any construction, that it is illegal; equally well, it may
    41        appear that there is no evidence in respect of that
    42        exercise that it was illegal; and you still have your point
    43        that if you do not follow the Wages Council's precise wage,
    44        which is worked out after very careful negotiation, there
    45        will be a risk sooner or later that you will pay someone
    46        less than they are entitled to.  You still have that
    47        fallback position.  You do not have to take my suggestion.
    48
    49   MS. STEEL:   It is not a fallback position.  It is the initial
    50        position. 
    51 
    52   MR. MORRIS:  Our position is that they should be paid a decent 
    53        wage and overtime and unsocial hours.
    54
    55   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Sometimes you are extremely ungrateful for
    56        any help I try to give you.  It is a fallback position in
    57        this sense, that if you prove actual illegality then that
    58        is better than risk of illegality.
    59
    60   MR. MORRIS:  OK.

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