Day 180 - 31 Oct 95 - Page 51
1 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Did you hear what I said a moment ago?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. Did you understand it?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6
7 MS. STEEL: If you could just -- certainly, in terms of this
8 Act -- sorry. This order was in force until June 1987; is
9 that correct?
10 A. It is correct.
11
12 Q. Right. So what has been stated on behalf of McDonald's,
13 certainly up until 1987, would that have been the case, and
14 can you explain the situation?
15 A. No. You see, the problem with adopting this basket
16 approach to statutory minimum rates is, it does not work
17 like that. See, the wages inspectors, in going about their
18 business -- and there are approximately 110 of them at this
19 time, covering some 2.3 million workers, I am trying to
20 remember, approximately 430,000 workplaces nationwide,
21 average size of workplace about six staff -- what a task.
22 They could not possibly visit every -----
23
24 MR. JUSTICE BELL: When you say the 2.3 million workers, in what?
25 A. Covered by the 26 wages councils, around about this
26 time. You had 100 wages inspectors, 110.
27
28 Q. And how many workplaces?
29 A. Approximately 400,000.
30
31 Q. About an average of six in each, you say?
32 A. Those would be round figures, my Lord. Clearly, from
33 those data, it is patently obvious that not every workplace
34 was inspected.
35
36 Now, the major employers were contacted by postal
37 questionnaire, usually. There might be a follow-up
38 interview with a senior personnel officer to examine
39 particularities of the response; and I know this, because
40 I sat on the wages councils and we went through it time and
41 again -- which was why I made the comment earlier that if
42 then it had been known that a substantial minority, one in
43 20, of a major employer such as McDonald's did work
44 overtime, then there would have been an inquiry. You see,
45 the point is -----
46
47 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Just pause a moment, please.
48 A. Sorry. (Pause)
49
50 Q. Do you mean to say if it had been known that a substantial
51 proportion like five per cent of full-time employers did
52 work overtime, or did work overtime without being paid an
53 overtime rate; which do you mean?
54 A. Both.
55
56 MS. STEEL: It is five per cent of all employees.
57
58 MR. JUSTICE BELL: So, even if they work overtime but were paid
59 time and a half, there would still be an inquiry, you are
60 saying?
