Day 011 - 12 Jul 94 - Page 69


     
     1        declined markedly and what was left was the one which had
              the hydrogen atoms attached to it.
     2
         Q.   It just says in your statement "produced using HCFCs";
     3        then it gives the figure.
              A.  What it actually says is at present none of the
     4         packaging is produced using HCFCs.  I realise this could
              be ambiguous, but the point I was trying to make was that
     5        in fact there had been a very rapid phase out of the
              chlorine containing compounds; and that by the early
     6        1990's they were only being used in two outlets.
 
     7   Q.   That does not include McDonald's refrigeration usage of
              CFCs or anything like that, just purely packaging?
     8        A.  Yes.
 
     9   Q.   OK.  Do you have any view on the phase out of CFCs on the
               -- like you said about fridges, you felt that was
    10        something that was absolutely essential, and therefore
              took a longer phase out period -- do you have any view
    11        about which usage would be expected to be phased out first
              or earlier, for example, you know, if it was used in a
    12        hospital it would be expected to be phased out more slowly
              than if it was used for blowing up children's balloons?
    13        A.  As I said earlier, I am not an expert on the
              refrigeration industry.  What I do know, however, is that
    14        in the absence of the use of CFCs or HCFCs, or in fact
              HFCs, unless you are prepared to shut down a large chunk
    15        of the refrigeration capacity, until you have
              re-engineered the factories which make refrigerators to
    16        use alternative agents, then in fact you would have rather
              a large hole in the world in order to keep its food from
    17        going rotten.
 
    18   Q.   Fridges are pretty important?
              A.  I would say so, yes.
    19
         Q.   Do you have any view about fastfood packaging ----
    20
         MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Can I just say, this is right in the sphere
    21        that  -- I will not say "have to decide" -- may have to
              decide, whereas I no doubt would be an admirer of
    22        Professor Duxbury's scientific knowledge, for better or
              worse it is my judgment on orders of precedence, not his.
    23
         MR. MORRIS:  The point I was making is that strict figures on
    24        total amounts of usage do not necessarily show anything in
              terms of whether a company is using responsibly something
    25        which should be phased out, do they?  Strict figures
              alone, do they prove anything at all? 
    26        A.  No.  Let me point something out.  If I were to buy, 
              for example, a refrigerator the supplier of the 
    27        refrigerator has a different way of giving the information
              to me than if I commissioned somebody to provide me with a
    28        blowing agent, or to produce it in a certain way.  What
              you were asking earlier was effectively to confuse two
    29        things -- one is effectively the use of plant in a
              restaurant, which is in fact no different from, for
    30        example, a refrigeration plant in most of the office
              buildings in North America, and a specific use of an agent

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