Day 079 - 27 Jan 95 - Page 73
1 animals was wrong in terms of production of meat.
2 Mr. Rampton did say at the beginning of the case, despite
3 the fact that was originally the Statement of Claim, that
4 torture and murder was a matter of opinion.
5
6 MR. RAMPTON: No, I did not, my Lord. Ms. Steel is not accurate
7 yet again. I said "murder" but not "McTorture" and I made
8 it clear why not.
9
10 MS. STEEL: I am sure he did actually say "torture" was a matter
11 of opinion.
12
13 MR. RAMPTON: No. It is an allegation of fact.
14
15 MS. STEEL: That is not what I recollect, but I think it would
16 be helpful if Mr. Rampton could give some clarification and
17 explain what the argument is on that aspect because,
18 obviously, that could, in itself, affect the length of
19 cross-examination as well in terms of -- I mean, really,
20 I feel that if people have an honestly-held opinion they
21 should be able to express that and, therefore, it should
22 not go further than that.
23
24 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I see that as a different sector of the
25 matter. What you should be concentrating on while we are
26 with the witnesses, as opposed to when you are addressing
27 me in due course, is the aspect, put very generally, in
28 which you will suggest in due course that animals suffer by
29 reason of the processes we are concerned in in this case.
30
31 You should particularly concentrate on those matters which
32 are now specifically pleaded in the Amended Statement of
33 Claim which, in fact, repeat almost verbatim what is in the
34 leaflet. But I am not going, unless there is an argument
35 about it, to stop you raising other ones. What I need to
36 know is factually what the extent of the allegation is
37 which is how the debate about a day or more in relation to
38 the cow and calf arose.
39
40 MS. STEEL: To be honest, that is why I think it would help to
41 have this clarification and explanation because there are
42 going to be widely different standards about what amount of
43 suffering is acceptable. But should it not just be a
44 matter of opinion? If you want to say that no suffering is
45 acceptable, that should be the end of it, really, because
46 otherwise some opinions can be expressed and some cannot.
47
48 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Look at the amended Statement of Claim and
49 see what the meaning which is alleged there is. Read the
50 leaflet again, the particular part of it. Forget for the
51 moment words like "murder" and "torture" and look at what
52 is actually alleged in the leaflet as matters of fact;
53 for instance, like cattle getting "frantic". Do you
54 remember that word?
55
56 MS. STEEL: Yes.
57
58 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Concentrate on the extent to which you can
59 either call evidence yourself or think you may get some
60 concession in cross-examination from one of the McDonald's
