Day 104 - 15 Mar 95 - Page 32


     
     1        knife they are using or do they pick another one up and
     2        leave one in the sterilizer?
     3        A.  There are, perhaps, two or three knives for each
     4        individual in the sterilizer, but by dipping the knife into
     5        the sterilizer which are, of course, at 82 degrees
     6        Centigrade and, therefore, just below boiling, that does
     7        remove grease and sterilizes the knife as well.
     8
     9   Q.   Do they wear gloves or anything?
    10        A.  No, no they do not.  Certain operations where it is
    11        useful from an occupational safety point of view they will
    12        wear them but, broadly speaking, the operations that we are
    13        discussing now, removal of gut and hide, interferes with
    14        the skill necessary.
    15
    16   Q.   It is a bit like pruning roses.  Is there anything in the
    17        sterilizer besides water?
    18        A.  No.
    19
    20   Q.   Is it, in your view, sufficient to heat a knife or to put a
    21        knife in water at 82 degrees Centigrade in order to
    22        sterilize it?
    23        A.  Yes, it is.
    24
    25   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  How long would it be in at 82 degrees to
    26        sterilize?
    27        A.  The knives, my Lord, they are keeping by them, they
    28        might be in for five minutes or so.  If it is a particular
    29        shape of knife that they are using, then they will dip it
    30        in.  Could I explain the term "sterilization" to clarify
    31        the situation?
    32
    33   MR. RAMPTON:  Yes.
    34        A.  To a scientist, a microbiologist, sterilization means
    35        complete removal of all micro organisms, and that involves
    36        the autoclaves that you see in laboratories and hospitals
    37        for 20 minutes in the true technical word of sterilization.
    38          So, the correct term, even though "sterilization" is used
    39        in the legislation, is sanitization, that is, the reduction
    40        of the micro organisms to an acceptable level.  In plain
    41        terms, to keep knives and equipment clean.
    42
    43        There is a distinction between common sense commercial
    44        cleanliness which covers food safety requirements and the
    45        scientific term of "sterilization".  I am using the
    46        understood term of keeping them clean and keeping the
    47        bacteria down to acceptable limits when I say
    48        "sterilization".
    49
    50   Q.   That gives rise to this question, Mr. Bennett:  Assume for 
    51        a moment that Jarretts have no interest in poisoning the 
    52        ultimate consumers of their meat.  Are what they are doing 
    53        with those so called sterilizers sufficient for that
    54        purpose?
    55        A.  They are certainly sufficient ------
    56
    57   Q.   I do not mean on their own.
    58        A.  Yes, they are sufficient sterilization processes.
    59
    60   Q.   We can deal with a couple of other things while we have the

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