Day 105 - 16 Mar 95 - Page 11


     
     1        safety"?
     2        A.  Thank you.
     3
     4   MR. MORRIS: Is it succeeding in improving food safety, the
     5        introduction of HACCP systems?
     6        A.  Measurements of food safety which, in my opinion, can
     7        only objectively be arrived at, would be by counting the
     8        number of food poisoning cases which occur as reported.
     9        The discussions on the introduction of HACCP, and the HACCP
    10        that has already been introduced for commercial reasons,
    11        have not been going long enough to come to any conclusions
    12        at the moment.  The numbers are to begin with, in
    13        epidemiological terms -- I repeat -- quite small.  So, I
    14        could not say whether HACCP has a health control measure,
    15        which has not yet been introduced, has had any effect or
    16        not on the incidence of food poisoning.
    17
    18   Q.   But it does allow companies to demonstrate due diligence?
    19        A.  It allows them to demonstrate due diligence in respect
    20        of possible offences under the Food Safety Act, and food
    21        poisoning is not one of those.
    22
    23   Q.   Food poisoning is not one of them?
    24        A.  As such, causing food poisoning in itself is not an
    25        offence as laid down.
    26
    27   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  We have been through this this very morning.
    28
    29   MR. MORRIS:  So, if you sell under-cooked meat, and certainly
    30        plead due diligence, you cannot be found guilty, but if you
    31        sell undercooked meat -----
    32
    33   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  No, that is just wrong.  If you plead due
    34        diligence, the magistrates have to decide whether, on the
    35        balance of probabilities, you have proved it.  If you do,
    36        you will end up being found not guilty; if you do not, you
    37        will end up being found guilty.
    38
    39   MR. MORRIS:  The HACCP has the control points to deal with
    40        temperature?
    41        A.  Yes.
    42
    43   Q.   They deal with specific physical places in a line?
    44        A.  Yes.
    45
    46   Q.   Do they deal with the speed of the line as well?
    47        A.  If it were to be the case that speed was essential, it
    48        might well.  It would be a question of fact on the analysis
    49        of the hazards presented by the process.
    50 
    51   Q.   When you introduced the HACCP at Jarretts, did you set a 
    52        limit on the speed of the line or in the number of 
    53        carcasses -----
    54
    55   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  No.  You are actually looking at it from
    56        opposite sides of the coin.  Mr. Morris is not concerned
    57        with speed being essential.  I surmise he is concerned with
    58        speed leading to lapses which might lead to -----
    59        A.  I fully understand that, my Lord.  I fully understand
    60        the point.

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