Day 111 - 30 Mar 95 - Page 53


     
     1        versa of meat.
     2
     3   Q.   So if a company was concerned, say, for example, that they
     4        thought their products might be infected with salmonella,
     5        the TVC checks they do on those products would be no guide
     6        whatsoever?
     7        A.  No.
     8
     9   Q.   Is that correct?  Would that be true of other pathogenic
    10        bacteria as well, that the TVC check is some kind of
    11        separate -- it is no guide to the actual pathogenic
    12        loading?
    13        A.  No, it is no guide to the pathogenic levels, no.  I
    14        mean, the only thing is that you can use it as a
    15        general -----
    16
    17   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Yes, we are back where we were a little while
    18        ago.
    19
    20   MR. MORRIS:  I just wanted to clarify that.  I think we can
    21        leave the Jarrett documents.  (To the witness):  Is there
    22        anything you want to say further about the whole issue of
    23        EC licensing that you may or may not have covered already?
    24        A.  No, I am sure we covered whatever.
    25
    26   Q.   Do the same concerns about the regularity of the TVC checks
    27        and the helpfulness of them apply to the monthly E.coli
    28        checks that Jarretts have said that they do?  What I am
    29        saying, is it an effective guide to the safety or otherwise
    30        of the products that go through there every day?
    31        A.  No, it is not.
    32
    33   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Are you talking about E.coli generally or
    34        0157?
    35
    36   MR. MORRIS:  Sorry, 0157.
    37
    38   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  If you look at page 2, for instance, and
    39        thereafter, you will see that they are, broadly speaking,
    40        monthly.
    41        A.  They appear to be once a calendar month but they are
    42        not necessarily one month apart.
    43
    44   MR. MORRIS:  Would that show you anything at all?
    45        A.  Well, it would show me that in that particular sample
    46        from that particular batch of meat there was not any
    47        E.coli.  That is the only thing that it would show me.
    48
    49   Q.   Would that help you in any way?
    50        A.  Well, it would help me to say -- to know that there was 
    51        no E.coli, E.coli 0157, on detectable levels in that 
    52        particular piece of meat.  That is the only thing I could, 
    53        conclusion I could draw from that.
    54
    55   Q.   Can you estimate or suggest what percentage of carcasses
    56        following evisceration are going to have some E.coli or
    57        some E.coli 0157 or campylobacter contamination?
    58        A.  No, it would be impossible to do.
    59
    60   Q.   What is the assumption, the working assumption, you make

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