Day 107 - 24 Mar 95 - Page 75


     
     1        understood it, is why you should say that the general
     2        concern is the very high level of salmonella contamination
     3        and other micro-organisms, pathogenic micro-organisms,
     4        found in these meats.  What does it mean?
     5        A.  It is the -- "high proportion", I concede -----
     6
     7   Q.   You do not mean numbers?
     8        A.  I concede the "high pro"portion causes concern with, if
     9        you remember my earlier qualification, that you cannot
    10        guarantee -- and please be aware of this -- you can say it
    11        is a rule of thumb that the level is low, but you cannot
    12        guarantee it.
    13
    14   Q.   The purpose of doing microbiological testing, either at the
    15        abattoir or in the food processing plant or both, you say
    16        pointless, purposeless, if you what you are trying to
    17        discover is the number of batches or pieces of meat that
    18        are actually infested or contaminated or infected or
    19        whatever.
    20        A.  I do not think quite so.
    21
    22   Q.   Do not go through it again, but I understand the point you
    23        are making is that you cannot expect to be able to declare
    24        the meat safe by a sampling system of that kind, because
    25        for however many negatives you get, you do not know how
    26        many positives there might be there which you have not
    27        spotted; is that right?
    28        A.  You cannot say under the system of -----
    29
    30   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Can you keep your voice up?
    31        A.  Sorry.  You cannot say under that system that you can
    32        make any kind of assurance that that particular target
    33        organism that you are sampling for is absent.
    34
    35   MR. RAMPTON:  Suppose, Mr. North, that is not the purpose of the
    36        operation; suppose the purpose of the operation is to see
    37        how often you get positive results or excessive results
    38        from a particular supplier, what then?
    39        A.  Well, we made the distinction, please, between sampling
    40        on TVCs, and I saw no fault in the sampling programme for
    41        TVCs in respect to the batches, that I saw fault in using
    42        that methodology to try to identify specific pathogens.
    43
    44   Q.   No, TVCs tells us two things, do they not?
    45        A.  Do they?
    46
    47   Q.   They tell us one thing, basically, which is what we are
    48        looking for if we are a meat processor, what risk the meat
    49        has of being spoiled by the time it reaches its
    50        destination?  It is principally a spoilage measure, is it 
    51        not? 
    52        A.  It can be.  I am, sorry, I am beginning to fall apart 
    53        on your proposition.  You see, the TVCs are so notoriously
    54        unreliable and so variable that they do have very, very
    55        limited use.  Quite frankly, the thrust, and very much the
    56        consensus of scientific opinion these days, is to move away
    57        from them.  This is why HACCP has been introduced to get
    58        away from end point testing.
    59
    60   Q.   Is not one of the features of HACCP that you are not trying

Prev Next Index