Day 180 - 31 Oct 95 - Page 51


     
     1   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Did you hear what I said a moment ago?
     2        A.  Yes.
     3
     4   Q.   Did you understand it?
     5        A.  Yes, I did.
     6
     7   MS. STEEL:  If you could just -- certainly, in terms of this
     8        Act -- sorry.  This order was in force until June 1987; is
     9        that correct?
    10        A.  It is correct.
    11
    12   Q.   Right.  So what has been stated on behalf of McDonald's,
    13        certainly up until 1987, would that have been the case, and
    14        can you explain the situation?
    15        A.  No.  You see, the problem with adopting this basket
    16        approach to statutory minimum rates is, it does not work
    17        like that.  See, the wages inspectors, in going about their
    18        business -- and there are approximately 110 of them at this
    19        time, covering some 2.3 million workers, I am trying to
    20        remember, approximately 430,000 workplaces nationwide,
    21        average size of workplace about six staff -- what a task.
    22        They could not possibly visit every -----
    23
    24   MR. JUSTICE BELL: When you say the 2.3 million workers, in what?
    25        A.  Covered by the 26 wages councils, around about this
    26        time.  You had 100 wages inspectors, 110.
    27
    28   Q.   And how many workplaces?
    29        A.  Approximately 400,000.
    30
    31   Q.   About an average of six in each, you say?
    32        A.  Those would be round figures, my Lord.  Clearly, from
    33        those data, it is patently obvious that not every workplace
    34        was inspected.
    35
    36        Now, the major employers were contacted by postal
    37        questionnaire, usually.  There might be a follow-up
    38        interview with a senior personnel officer to examine
    39        particularities of the response; and I know this, because
    40        I sat on the wages councils and we went through it time and
    41        again -- which was why I made the comment earlier that if
    42        then it had been known that a substantial minority, one in
    43        20, of a major employer such as McDonald's did work
    44        overtime, then there would have been an inquiry.  You see,
    45        the point is -----
    46
    47   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Just pause a moment, please.
    48        A.  Sorry.  (Pause)
    49
    50   Q.   Do you mean to say if it had been known that a substantial 
    51        proportion like five per cent of full-time employers did 
    52        work overtime, or did work overtime without being paid an 
    53        overtime rate; which do you mean?
    54        A.  Both.
    55
    56   MS. STEEL:  It is five per cent of all employees.
    57
    58   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  So, even if they work overtime but were paid
    59        time and a half, there would still be an inquiry, you are
    60        saying?

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