Day 114 - 04 Apr 95 - Page 58


     
     1        modern intensive farming unit?
     2        A.  No.
     3
     4   Q.   You have no veterinary qualification?
     5        A.  No.
     6
     7   Q.   You worked I think you told us for 44 years in the
     8        pharmaceutical industry?
     9        A.  Yes.
    10
    11   Q.   Was that a full-time job?
    12        A.  Yes.
    13
    14   Q.   So when did you do your animal welfare work?
    15        A.  Weekends, evenings, I took holidays, that sort of
    16        thing.
    17
    18   Q.   You have conveyed a great deal of information to his
    19        Lordship over the last two days.  How much of that, broadly
    20        speaking, is the result of direct observation and how much
    21        of reading and talking to other people?
    22        A.  Both very important because, as an investigator, it is
    23        very useful to me to discuss with other people who are
    24        doing somewhat similar things and to use my experience to
    25        bat ideas about.  So I have been making the best use I can
    26        of that sort of communication.
    27
    28   Q.   Have you, for example, yourself done any practical work to
    29        seek to measure the consciousness or the lack of it after
    30        stunning in cattle or pigs or both?
    31        A.  No.  The only work I could do is to observe eye
    32        movements, breathing, when I have been on the spot.  I have
    33        not got a slaughterman's certificate and I have not
    34        actually slaughtered an animal.
    35
    36   Q.   Have you done the sort of work which we know that Dr. -- he
    37        is now a Professor -- Gregory has done?
    38        A.  No, I have not.  I have had a lot of conversations with
    39        Professor Gregory and admire a lot of work he has done,
    40        although I am critical in some aspects.
    41
    42   Q.   He is an acknowledged expert in this field of, what shall
    43        we say, the impact on animals of modern farming practices
    44        and slaughtering, is he not?
    45        A.  Yes, he is.
    46
    47   Q.   Generally speaking, would you defer to his judgment in
    48        matters of this kind?
    49        A.  I would certainly listen to his evidence but
    50        critically. 
    51 
    52   Q.   If, for example, it was his opinion in the first place, 
    53        taking cattle, that the time between stunning and sticking
    54        is not of prime importance but for various practical
    55        reasons should probably be not more than two minutes, would
    56        you disagree with that?
    57        A.  I would not be happy with that.  I myself would be more
    58        generous to the animal.  I would regard myself, if you
    59        like, as more of a shop steward for the animal looking at
    60        it, particularly from the animal's perspective.  I think

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