Day 085 - 08 Feb 95 - Page 56


     
     1   Q.   If you look at page 17 of this statement, do you have that?
     2        A.  Yes.
     3
     4   Q.   You said something about a 63 to 85 or something curve.  Is
     5        that the kind of thing you were talking about?
     6        A.  No, it is not.  I was talking about, it is my belief
     7        that there is a general publication put out by health
     8        authorities that bacteria will be able to grow in
     9        conditions between 5 degrees centigrade and 63 degrees
    10        centigrade.
    11
    12   Q.   But if you look at this chart, are you aware of a time
    13        temperature curve for thermal death point cooking of meat?
    14        A.  Sorry, could you please say that again?
    15
    16   Q.   Are you aware that there are time temperature curves for
    17        the thermal death point at which bacteria is guaranteed to
    18        be killed?
    19        A.  I am aware that to kill bacteria it is a combination of
    20        the temperature and the time at which the bacteria has been
    21        subjected to that temperature.
    22
    23   Q.   If something is at 63 degrees it may take an hour to kill
    24        bacteria, whereas if something is at 80 degrees it may take
    25        10 seconds.  Is that the general principle?
    26        A.  I would say those figures are wildly away from what is
    27        the reality.
    28
    29   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  It is only meant to be an illustration.
    30        A.  If it is an illustration, fine.
    31
    32   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  In fact, he has answered your question.  He
    33        is aware that to kill bacteria it is a combination of time
    34        and temperature.  If you put that on a graph it becomes a
    35        curve.
    36
    37   MR. MORRIS:  Are you aware that if something reaches the
    38        temperature of whatever, well, I do not know how much more
    39        to ask really -----
    40
    41   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I think you have gone as far as you can with
    42        the curve, because he said his source of information was
    43        not in the form of a time temperature curve; it was just in
    44        respect of some figures published by some body.
    45
    46   MR. MORRIS:  So it is important how long a piece of meat is
    47        subjected to certain temperatures; not just that it happens
    48        to reach that particular temperature?
    49        A.  The higher temperature the less time the bacteria has
    50        to be exposed to it to kill it. 
    51 
    52   MS. STEEL:   I am going back to something else in that bundle. 
    53        If you could turn to tab 18 in that bundle.  Have you seen
    54        that before?
    55        A.  I am sure when I was in operations it came to me in
    56        February 1991, although I do not look to be on the mailing
    57        list, to be honest.
    58
    59   Q.   What was your position at that time?
    60        A.  Senior supervisor.

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