Day 079 - 27 Jan 95 - Page 73


     
     1        animals was wrong in terms of production of meat.
     2        Mr. Rampton did say at the beginning of the case, despite
     3        the fact that was originally the Statement of Claim, that
     4        torture and murder was a matter of opinion.
     5
     6   MR. RAMPTON:  No, I did not, my Lord.  Ms. Steel is not accurate
     7        yet again.  I said "murder" but not "McTorture" and I made
     8        it clear why not.
     9
    10   MS. STEEL:  I am sure he did actually say "torture" was a matter
    11        of opinion.
    12
    13   MR. RAMPTON:  No.  It is an allegation of fact.
    14
    15   MS. STEEL:  That is not what I recollect, but I think it would
    16        be helpful if Mr. Rampton could give some clarification and
    17        explain what the argument is on that aspect because,
    18        obviously, that could, in itself, affect the length of
    19        cross-examination as well in terms of -- I mean, really,
    20        I feel that if people have an honestly-held opinion they
    21        should be able to express that and, therefore, it should
    22        not go further than that.
    23
    24   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I see that as a different sector of the
    25        matter.  What you should be concentrating on while we are
    26        with the witnesses, as opposed to when you are addressing
    27        me in due course, is the aspect, put very generally, in
    28        which you will suggest in due course that animals suffer by
    29        reason of the processes we are concerned in in this case.
    30
    31        You should particularly concentrate on those matters which
    32        are now specifically pleaded in the Amended Statement of
    33        Claim which, in fact, repeat almost verbatim what is in the
    34        leaflet.  But I am not going, unless there is an argument
    35        about it, to stop you raising other ones.  What I need to
    36        know is factually what the extent of the allegation is
    37        which is how the debate about a day or more in relation to
    38        the cow and calf arose.
    39
    40   MS. STEEL:   To be honest, that is why I think it would help to
    41        have this clarification and explanation because there are
    42        going to be widely different standards about what amount of
    43        suffering is acceptable.  But should it not just be a
    44        matter of opinion?  If you want to say that no suffering is
    45        acceptable, that should be the end of it, really, because
    46        otherwise some opinions can be expressed and some cannot.
    47
    48   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Look at the amended Statement of Claim and
    49        see what the meaning which is alleged there is.  Read the
    50        leaflet again, the particular part of it.  Forget for the 
    51        moment words like "murder" and "torture" and look at what 
    52        is actually alleged in the leaflet as matters of fact; 
    53        for instance, like cattle getting "frantic".  Do you
    54        remember that word?
    55
    56   MS. STEEL:  Yes.
    57
    58   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Concentrate on the extent to which you can
    59        either call evidence yourself or think you may get some
    60        concession in cross-examination from one of the McDonald's

Prev Next Index