Day 238 - 22 Apr 96 - Page 20


     
     1        agriculture let alone hunting.  In fact, there is very
     2        little hunting left.
     3
     4   MR. MORRIS:  Have their numbers reduced over the last decades,
     5        the last 50 years?
     6        A.   I would say at the turn of the century, probably back
     7        to the 60's or 70's even, the population would have gone
     8        down.  I do not have a figure for that.  But what is
     9        happening now is that the population is actually
    10        increasing, and that is one of the problems that they have
    11        been herded into such unviable small parcels of land that
    12        not only can it not support the population as it used to be
    13        so in the 70's or the 80's but that population is growing.
    14        So there is not enough land for them.
    15
    16   Q.   That was your second statement of 16th April, 1996.  Do you
    17        stand by that as your evidence?
    18        A.   Yes, I do.
    19
    20   Q.   There is only one other question.  We have a map provided
    21        to us by McDonald's of their supply sources in Mato Grosso
    22        do Sul.  If you can just get a copy.
    23
    24   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  It is a large one on the top.
    25
    26   MR. MORRIS:  There are quite a few up there.
    27
    28   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  The very top above the pale blue bundles.
    29
    30   MR. MORRIS:  It is one of those ones.  I do not know what it has
    31        got on the other side.  It is not that hard paper.
    32
    33   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  It is on rather more flimsy paper than that.
    34
    35   MR. MORRIS:  Do you have Mato Grosso do Sul in mind here?
    36        A.   Yes.
    37
    38   Q.   The yellow flashes, it has been said by McDonald's
    39        witnesses, represent the collection points for their raw
    40        beef cattle to be delivered to the slaughter house in Campo
    41        Grande for McDonald's use.  Do you have any comments to
    42        make about the location of the yellow flashes with
    43        reference to indigenous peoples?
    44        A.   Well, if you transpose this map on to this map here,
    45        what strikes me is that a lot of the yellow areas are very
    46        near, if not in some cases, could be where there are
    47        indigenous communities because there are quite a lot of
    48        yellow flashes here, and if you look at the map which I
    49        have provided, some of them are very near.  I mean, this is
    50        not a very detailed map but it suggests to me that they are 
    51        certainly in the location of some of the indigenous 
    52        communities which I have mentioned. 
    53
    54   Q.   Some of the indigenous communities where they now presently
    55        have?
    56        A.   Yes, where they are now presently.
    57
    58   Q.   On reservations?
    59        A.   Yes. Which, as I said, does not correspond to their
    60        ancestral land.

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