Day 089 - 15 Feb 95 - Page 14


     
     1        concerned, a matter of heredity on the one hand and on the
     2        other hand a matter of environment?
     3        A.  I think patterns of behaviour are conditioned by both
     4        factors.  I think heredity is important.  The breeding of
     5        the animal will determine its behaviour but also the
     6        environment also determines behaviour, and I think that
     7        applies to all species -- including man.
     8
     9   Q.   It will be suggested (of this you can be sure) by the
    10        Defendants, Dr. Pattison, that the conditions in which your
    11        chickens are kept are, to use their word "cruel", because
    12        in the sheds, for example, the broiler chickens have no
    13        access to, for example, outdoor air, sunshine, dust in a
    14        farmyard and so on and so forth.  To what extent, in your
    15        opinion, are those activities, sitting in the sunshine,
    16        having a dust bath, or whatever, normal patterns of
    17        behaviour or normal behaviour for a chicken which has spent
    18        its whole life inside?
    19        A.  I do not think you can really argue that it is a normal
    20        requirement.  Obviously, if a chicken is kept outdoors then
    21        it has access to these things, but if it is kept indoors
    22        there is no scientific evidence to indicate that it is
    23        being deprived.  All that is happening is that it is being
    24        kept in a different environment.  That would apply to
    25        outdoor pigs or indoor pigs, the same comparison comes.
    26
    27   Q.   Are you aware of any work which has been done on what
    28        I might call the development of the chicken's brain, how
    29        well developed the chicken's brain might be?
    30        A.  The chicken has a very simple brain.  It does not have
    31        the powers of reasoning that mammals and human beings
    32        have.  The cortex of the brain does not have the
    33        convolutions in it which indicate the capacity for
    34        reasoning.  So, it is very -- it is a simple brain.  It is
    35        conditioned by heredity and it is very -- its ability for
    36        conscious thought is not really scientifically proven.
    37
    38   Q.   May I ask you this, you told us that you care about the
    39        animals under your wing, if I may use that expression; do
    40        you personally, as an individual human being, feel any
    41        discomfort about the fact that these chickens which you are
    42        responsible for do not have the same sort of conditions as
    43        chickens that live in farmyards or used to?
    44        A.  I personally do not feel any discomfort at that.
    45
    46   Q.   Do you then see any conflict in the position you hold and
    47        the work you do, on the one hand, and, on the other hand,
    48        your adherence to these Five Freedoms?
    49        A.  I do not see any conflict at all, and I see it as a
    50        very important part of my job to ensure that those Freedoms 
    51        are being observed within our farming system. 
    52 
    53   Q.   Do you accept that within the farming system it is
    54        inevitable that the birds or the animals, whether they be
    55        pigs or cattle, sheep, will undergo in the process of their
    56        subservience to human interest a certain amount of
    57        suffering, discomfort and pain, or a proportion of them
    58        will?
    59        A.  There is no reason why that should happen if the
    60        standard of husbandry is high in any system, whether it is

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