Day 180 - 31 Oct 95 - Page 66
1 MR. JUSTICE BELL: He did say, I think -- and if one is going to
2 do close reasoning on things like this, I mean, it may or
3 may not help, but if one if you want to do close reasoning,
4 amongst all the documents we have in this case, I am sure
5 we will find a document which tells us what someone was
6 starting at at a certain period of time, and then you can
7 pursue your point.
8
9 The last thing I will say is, do not lose sight of what
10 I said earlier. By all means, use Mr. Alimi, or someone
11 like that, when you have actually got some details of the
12 hours he was working over a fortnight; you know the rates
13 he was on. It is pretty well, if my recollection is right,
14 at the time we have been looking at the Wages Council
15 figures, and you should be able to do some prima facie sum,
16 so we can actually see whether in a fortnight where he
17 worked 98 hours, for instance, he was likely to come out
18 short on the figure which the Wages Council figures were
19 giving.
20
21 MS. STEEL: I think it is difficult because it is fortnightly.
22 But, also, I just want to make the point that that is not
23 our position. Our position is they should have been paying
24 on top of the premium rate.
25
26 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I can only suggest that it might be my
27 position; and you will do at well at least to do some sums
28 and see if it helps you. If it does not help you, so be
29 it.
30
31 MR. MORRIS: I think there is an important point, that it cannot
32 be -- in a case of libel, we are talking about freedom of
33 speech to criticise various practices; and it cannot be
34 that you cannot criticise those practices unless they are
35 illegal. I mean, the point is that we are entitled to say
36 McDonald's is low pay, if it is under £200 a week.
37
38 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Of course you are. All I am saying is, if you
39 sit down for 10 minutes and do some sums, you may show, on
40 any construction, that it is illegal; equally well, it may
41 appear that there is no evidence in respect of that
42 exercise that it was illegal; and you still have your point
43 that if you do not follow the Wages Council's precise wage,
44 which is worked out after very careful negotiation, there
45 will be a risk sooner or later that you will pay someone
46 less than they are entitled to. You still have that
47 fallback position. You do not have to take my suggestion.
48
49 MS. STEEL: It is not a fallback position. It is the initial
50 position.
51
52 MR. MORRIS: Our position is that they should be paid a decent
53 wage and overtime and unsocial hours.
54
55 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Sometimes you are extremely ungrateful for
56 any help I try to give you. It is a fallback position in
57 this sense, that if you prove actual illegality then that
58 is better than risk of illegality.
59
60 MR. MORRIS: OK.
