Day 251 - 17 May 96 - Page 31


     
     1        have contacted the church, knowing that the church is the
     2        only source of support.  I mean it is beginning to change a
     3        little bit now, with Brazil becoming more democratic, but
     4        certainly sort of 1970's and up to 1985, that was the only
     5        institution they could go to.  I do not mean it in any
     6        technical form of registered with the authorities.
     7
     8   Q.   You mean it is just a dispute of which this body has a
     9        record?
    10        A.  It has a record and they will not go down -- they are
    11        an extremely careful organisation.  They will not be
    12        putting making a record of it unless they have considerable
    13        evidence, and they will have details on all these disputes
    14        in their now computerised system.
    15
    16   Q.   Yes.  There was one other question which I would like an
    17        answer to.  I am sorry, there is so much paper, do you have
    18        your type written statement somewhere to hand there?
    19        A.  Yes.
    20
    21   Q.   I would like you to look at the big paragraph which starts
    22        in about the middle of the page with the words
    23        "Mr. Morganti"; have you got that?
    24        A.  Yes, I have got that.
    25
    26   Q.   On page 2: "Mr. Morganti discusses in his statement..." so
    27        on and so forth.  Then you recite what he said, to the
    28        effect that the land was not occupied by small farmers
    29        displaced by cattle ranching.  You say:
    30
    31        "This statement is wrong.  Mato Grosso do Sul was not
    32        virgin land when cattle-rearers arrived; it has been
    33        occupied for centuries by Guariani and Kadiweu Indians. For
    34        the last 30 years there has been serious conflict."
    35
    36        What I am asking is, you say "when the cattle-rearers
    37        arrived", do you propose that is a single historical event?
    38        A.  No.  No, that has been a process of occupation of the
    39        eviction of the Indians.  I mean, I am questioning the
    40        validity of his statement that it is virgin land.  It is
    41        not uncommon in Brazil for cattle-rearers to make this kind
    42        of statement, that it was virgin land, but that is because
    43        they tend not to regard Indians somehow as legitimate
    44        occupiers of the land.
    45
    46   Q.   I cannot speak for Mr. Morganti, but I can tell you he is
    47        not a cattle-rearer?
    48        A.  I do not know.  I just know that he runs a  cattle
    49        ranch.  He would be sharing then the kind of assumption
    50        that is, at times, made by cattle-rearers. 
    51 
    52   Q.   What I was actually wondering was, since it was not, as it 
    53        might be thought to suggest, a single historical event,
    54        perhaps I can ask you this:  When did you first go to Mato
    55        Grosso do Sul?
    56        A.  Let me think.  I have been there since the early
    57        1970's, I cannot remember the exact date.
    58
    59   Q.   Since the early 1970's?
    60        A.  Yes, since the early 1970's.

Prev Next Index