Day 036 - 13 Oct 94 - Page 25


     
     1        dramatic change in a disease such as breast cancer.
     2
     3        Let my finally say that Dr. Kushi is a personal friend of
     4        mine and one who has invited me to give presentations on
     5        more than one occasion, including the American Public
     6        Health Association meeting.  I know him to be a careful
     7        researcher and to measure his words quite carefully.
     8
     9   Q.   That is what I had assumed, Dr. Barnard.  Can we turn then
    10        to a piece of work published -----
    11
    12   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Can I raise my question again then,
    13        Mr. Rampton?  Can you help about a typical vegan or
    14        ovo-lacto-vegetarian diet in the western world?
    15        A.  Yes.  Regrettably -- I could, perhaps, give a few
    16        figures which might be somewhat helpful -- but there is a
    17        tremendous range -- a vegan diet simply means the absence
    18        of animal products; it does not mean necessarily that
    19        vegetable oils will be restricted.
    20
    21        So, if a vegan is consuming french fries and onion rings,
    22        salad oils and fried foods, that could elevate the fat
    23        content of the diet.  An ovo-lacto vegetarian, likewise,
    24        could have either a rather low fat intake or a high one.
    25        However, just to put some numbers on it, a vegan who
    26        consumed a plant diet without added fat would consume 10
    27        per cent or less of his or her calories as fat.  However,
    28        with the addition of added oils, the fat intake could go
    29        anywhere, to any point upwards of that.
    30
    31   Q.   Without limit?
    32        A.  Yes, without limit regrettably,
    33
    34   MR. RAMPTON:  May I just pick up on that?  A thought has
    35        occurred to me which Dr. Barnard might be able to help
    36        develop.  It is well known, is it not, Dr. Barnard, that
    37        Mediterranean populations of Europe -- I do not know about
    38        North Africa -- but Mediterranean populations of Europe
    39        have comparatively low rates of colon cancer and heart
    40        disease?
    41        A.  Somewhat lower, yes.
    42
    43   Q.   A good deal lower than we suffer from in this country and
    44        in Scandinavia?
    45        A.  Yes. In general terms, that is true.
    46
    47   Q.   They also consume large quantities of fish?
    48        A.  They may.
    49
    50   Q.   What? 
    51        A.  In some cases they may. 
    52 
    53   Q.   And olive oil?
    54        A.  In some cases they do.
    55
    56   Q.   What is your explanation of the fact that their rates are
    57        significantly lower than ours?
    58        A.  Well, I think it is a complex subject.  First of all,
    59        that is not to say their fat intake is equal to that in
    60        Britain and other aspects of the diet do vary as well; but

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