Day 011 - 12 Jul 94 - Page 74


     
     1        then we know where we are -- how soon after awareness in
              the scientific community or concern do you think there was
     2        any significant public concern, or can you not as a
              scientist answer that question?
     3        A.  I think I probably can answer that question, which is
              that the first, if you like, readable book on the subject
     4        was published by John Griven, and so far as my memory
              serves me correctly, this was published in paperback in
     5        1988/1989. As Given is quite well read and readable author
              that would mean it went into the public domain quite
     6        rapidly.
 
     7   MR. MORRIS:  It is my contention or opinion that environmental
              groups picked up on CFC and HCFCs as part of that picture
     8        well before it became a scientific fact or major issue.
 
     9   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Just pause there.  You are going to have to
              put something more precise than that.  If you are saying
    10        it was before the publication of the Antarctica survey you
              have to say when you think it is and how.
    11
         MR. MORRIS:  Well, I am just trying to say that, for example,
    12        Mr. Lipsett who spoke yesterday said that he did not
              believe the industry or the scientific community or the
    13        government when they said that HCFCs could be even a
              temporary solution to the destruction of the ozone
    14        problem, and although there were no maybe hard facts at
              the time, I would contend he read between the lines or his
    15        organisation read between the lines of the information
              that was coming out of the scientific community and
    16        perceived that it was going to be a serious problem and
              not solvable through use of HCFCs.  Do you see what I am
    17        saying?
              A.  Yes.
    18
         Q.   Is there that kind of relationship between the public and
    19        the scientific community, even if the scientific community
              is not 100 per cent, you know, we have these hard facts?
    20        You cannot say anything unless you have the hard facts in
              front of you.  But there can still be perceptions from the
    21        public about what the real situation is?
              A.  The only way you can answer this satisfactorily is to
    22        take several case instances where there have been
              perceptions that such you and such was the case, to follow
    23        them through to discover whether or not in a case of a
              typical example that perception had been correct or not.
    24
         Q.   Like thalidomide?
    25        A.  There are examples like thalidomide.  There are other
              examples of things which were perceived to be problems 
    26        and, in fact, have subsequently proved not to be.  So one 
              can always with hindsight look back and say that such and 
    27        such was perceived to be a problem at the time.  If you
              chose thalidomide which you did, it was the about the
    28        first example as far as I remember of a particular
              mutagenic thing which had come to light.  It subsequently
    29        turns out it is a member of the whole class of these, but
              whether one could have foreseen in advance of this thing
    30        has obviously been the subject of a great deal of debate.
              As I am not an expert on genetics I do not wish to comment

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