Day 097 - 06 Mar 95 - Page 72
1
2 By the time you cross-examine this may not be my view, but
3 I would have thought basic procedures like this there could
4 be a fair amount of leading on as to what the temperatures
5 are and where it goes next, and what the temperatures are
6 when it gets to those parts of the production line. Is it
7 really in issue that it goes through these chilling stages
8 in the MMP plant?
9
10 MR. MORRIS: Well, there are obviously issues about temperatures
11 and things.
12
13 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I appreciate there may be that, but you have
14 to ask yourself: Am I actually going to be standing up at
15 the end of the day and putting to the witness: "It does not
16 go into a holding chiller after it has been in the deboned
17 plant".
18
19 MR. MORRIS: No, I understand that.
20
21 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Do you see what I mean, or they do not get it
22 down ----
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24 MR. MORRIS: And leave it lying around.
25
26 MR. JUSTICE BELL: --- as normal practice to 4 to 7 before it
27 goes in. There if the fact is you are not going to
28 challenge that, positively challenge it, then there is
29 probably no harm in asking leading questions about it.
30
31 MR. MORRIS: I think Helen and I were particularly concerned
32 about the way Mr. Rampton all the MAFF regulations, code of
33 practice, and said "Do you conform to that?" Obviously any
34 witness that is put the official regulations and say, "do
35 you conform to that?" is going to say "yes". That was
36 virtually the entire animal welfare case, if you like, for
37 this witness. It was done in that way. It was a quick of
38 doing. I understand it was a quick way.
39
40 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I would be very surprised if someone came
41 right out and said: "No, of course we do not conform".
42 Mr. Rampton has heard what you have said. You have said
43 it.
44
45 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, I make no apology for this reason that
46 I hope when it comes to something which I do recognise as
47 being sensitive I do not lead. I did not lead on
48 temperature, for example, which the meat leaves the plant.
49 I asked him what it was. What the Defendants do not and
50 cannot be expected to understand is that very often in a
51 case, particularly one of this length, counsel will say to
52 each other: "Well, go on, lead let us get through until you
53 come a bit where I say you must not". Normally that is
54 quite -----
55
56 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I think you have got to carry on using your
57 discretion about what you think is actually in issue in the
58 light of what Mr. Morris said. Perhaps you ought to err on
59 the side of caution.
60
