Day 081 - 31 Jan 95 - Page 45


     
     1
     2   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  -- but there is no key to it?
     3        A.  There is no key.
     4
     5   MR. MORRIS:  No, so you cannot really help us with that?
     6        A.  No, I am sorry.
     7
     8   Q.   In that case we might as well just close that document
     9        then, I think.  If you look at No. 17 in that file?
    10
    11   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  The same file?
    12
    13   MR. MORRIS:  Yes, 17.  It has the sterilizers not washed out.
    14        Is the regular cleaning of sterilization equipment, sort
    15        of, a fundamental part of hygiene?
    16        A.  I do not know what sort of sterilizers it is referring
    17        to.
    18
    19   Q.   It is the only mention of sterilizers on that form but, in
    20        general, the washing out of sterilization equipment, would
    21        you say that was a pretty fundamental hygiene requirement?
    22        A.  Well, sterilizers, if it is something like a knife
    23        sterilizer, it is just a small container and that would be
    24        cleaned out normally, but if it is a sterilizer,
    25        presumably, anything in it is sterile.  It would be a
    26        contravention but not a serious one.
    27
    28   Q.   I think we can close that folder.  We just need a couple of
    29        minutes to collect our thoughts.
    30
    31   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I will just ask a question.  I think it
    32        relates to an answer you gave this morning.  I see that the
    33        footnote (6) on the PHLS Microbiology Digest (which we
    34        have):  "Provision has been made for the inclusion of
    35        microbiological standards for foods in both the Food Safety
    36        Act 1990 and in EC legislation.  If mandatory standards are
    37        introduced for some or all of the ready to eat foods
    38        included in the Table, then an interpretation of the
    39        results would become more straightforward, viz. samples
    40        would either pass or fail the standards".  Is that a
    41        reflection of the fact that the test of legality now is fit
    42        for human consumption or not, or some general term of that
    43        nature?
    44        A.  Yes, it is.
    45
    46   Q.   We have not yet got absolutely objective standards of
    47        colonies above or below such and such of various organisms?
    48        A.  Yes, sir.  That is exactly so, yes.  There are no
    49        objective, clear cut standards of that type yet.
    50 
    51   MR. MORRIS:  If we can get another file?  It is the Defendants' 
    52        Supplementary list.  It was the last -- it is actually a 
    53        new file.  It is not one of our standard files.  It was
    54        served a couple of weeks ago.  I do not know if it was
    55        given a number because, as we have said, I think we ought
    56        to have some coherent system for this.
    57
    58   MR. RAMPTON:  Your Lordship has not got that yet.  I have an
    59        empty file which I can fill or I can pass your Lordship
    60        that.

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