Day 038 - 19 Oct 94 - Page 46


     
     1
     2   Q.   Therefore, it would be about 187 and a half?
     3        A.  Milligrams a day for an adult, yes.
     4
     5   Q.   How far does 187 and half milligrams go as colouring?
     6        A.  I think it goes quite a long way.
     7
     8   Q.   I mean would it colour 100 third-litre cans of soft drinks
     9        or a 1,000 or what?  You see, I have nothing to feel my
    10        way, nothing to measure this by?
    11        A.  Forgive me, but I have not prepared -----
    12
    13   Q.   Can you give me any idea?
    14        A.  I could probably come back with an answer if I went
    15        away and looked things up and did some calculations.
    16
    17   Q.   You see, it might make some difference if ---
    18        A.  I am not prepared to have -----
    19
    20   Q.   -- I can take that in, if I just drink five cans of a soft
    21        drink; on the other hand, if I have to drink 1,000 cans of
    22        a soft drink in a day, that is another matter, is it not?
    23        A.  I am not going to pretend to have knowledge that I do
    24        not have, but what I would try to persuade you of is this:
    25        The dose in these laboratory experiments is substantially
    26        higher than one would realistically consume on a similar
    27        weight basis in an adult.  But the reason why these
    28        relatively high doses are used (as I tried to indicate this
    29        morning) is because we are using relatively small numbers
    30        of animals with relatively short life-span to model the
    31        effects on very large populations over a much longer
    32        life-span.  The dose is scaled up in order to try
    33        compensate for that.  Given that adverse effects arise at
    34        the dose levels they have chosen to use, I think it is
    35        unrealistic simply to disregard that and say:  "We never
    36        consume it at that level, therefore, it is safe".
    37
    38        It seems to me the appropriate response is, rather, to
    39        say:  "If those doses are unrealistically high but there is
    40        apparent evidence of an adverse effect at that level, the
    41        only sensible way to proceed would be to do further tests
    42        at lower doses but in large groups of animal".  Partly what
    43        I am trying to indicate here is that they have never asked
    44        for that and that has never been done.  That is the only
    45        indication that is available and, therefore, I can make my
    46        evaluation only by reference to what information is
    47        available.
    48
    49        I am not suggesting that five per cent of the diet, or
    50        three per cent, is an adequate model for human 
    51        consumption.  I think that is grounds for having a rather 
    52        different approach to testing. 
    53
    54   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I appreciate you have a different approach,
    55        but in any of those compounds we are considering, have you
    56        actually worked out what sort of quantities of a specific
    57        food with that additive in it one would have to consume to
    58        get anywhere near the ADI?
    59        A.  I have not done that and I have not been asked to do
    60        that.  That is something I might be able to do, but

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