Day 089 - 15 Feb 95 - Page 65


     
     1        other words, one in four of those samples contains
     2        salmonella organisms, although it is a very sensitive test,
     3        we cannot quantity the number of organisms.
     4
     5   MR. RAMPTON:  So the apparent increase from 1 per cent to 25 per
     6        cent tells us, correct me if I am wrong, nothing about the
     7        actual quantity of salmonella in either case.  Is that
     8        right?
     9        A.  That is correct.
    10
    11   Q.   What are the conditions, so far as you are aware, in which
    12        salmonella may proliferate or multiply?
    13        A.  Salmonella multiplies ideally at warmer temperatures.
    14        The best temperature is around 37 to 41 degrees centigrade,
    15        it likes moist conditions, and obviously an environment
    16        where there is nourishment so that it has something to feed
    17        on.
    18
    19   Q.   I am not going to ask you to go through it, the Defendants
    20        can if they wish, but looking at the process overall from
    21        arrival, yes, stunning, killing, scalding, whatever happens
    22        next, through to finished product, where in that process,
    23        if anywhere, do the conditions obtain for proliferation?
    24        I am not talking about cross-contamination; I mean
    25        proliferation of salmonella?
    26        A.  Actual proliferation of salmonella is actually very
    27        unlikely in the conditions within a processing factory,
    28        because the temperature is not ideal and the time that they
    29        are in there is not very long.  So actual proliferation is
    30        really, frankly, very unlikely.
    31
    32   Q.   What is the maximum temperature you will find, first of
    33        all, ambient temperature in the plant?
    34        A.  The maximum is 15 degrees.
    35
    36   Q.   As far as you can tell, what is the maximum temperature the
    37        meat itself ever reaches?
    38        A.  The maximum temperature obviously from slaughter, the
    39        bird temperature body temperature is 41 degrees
    40        centigrade.  The temperature has to be brought down
    41        progressively through to -- the meat temperature is about
    42        18 degrees as it goes into the chillers and then it comes
    43        out of the chillers at about 4 degrees centigrade.
    44
    45   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  The temperatures you gave, 37 to 41, are
    46        pretty exactly then the bracket between a fairly normal
    47        human temperature and a fairly normal broiler temperature?
    48        A.  Correct.
    49
    50   Q.   As they happen? 
    51        A.  That is correct, yes. 
    52 
    53   MR. RAMPTON:  I was not quite sure that I got the figure.
    54
    55   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  They multiply better in warmer conditions.
    56        The best, you said, was about 37 to 41 degrees centigrade?
    57        A.  Which is body heat in actual fact.
    58
    59   MR. RAMPTON:  Can we take an imaginary thermometer and first of
    60        I would like to go up it.  Is there a temperature at which

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