Day 103 - 14 Mar 95 - Page 36
1 are certainly different strains of listeria other than
2 monocytogenes ones, which monocytogenes is the basic type
3 that will cause illness, but there are also other varieties
4 of listeria which do not necessarily cause illness.
5
6 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I merely ask because saying it is in 60 per
7 cent of chickens, you were agreeing that a listeria of some
8 kind?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10
11 MS. STEEL: Would you accept that 60 per cent are contaminated
12 with listeria monocytogenes?
13 A. Well, it does not seem an unreasonable statement but I
14 do not know because I have not measured it. Listeria is a
15 very common organism. It is found in soil. It is found in
16 the environment -- very common organism.
17
18 Q. You said that the regulations had changed because of
19 heightened awareness about listeria and requirements have
20 been tightened, can you explain a bit more in relation to
21 that?
22 A. Well, listeria as you know, was highlighted as a cause
23 of illness in human beings and, in particular, as a risk to
24 pregnant women -- this is probably in the late 80s.
25 Testing by various public health laboratories did
26 demonstrate that occasionally listeria could be a
27 contamination on cooked roast chicken being sold in shops.
28
29 So, as a reaction to that, and once people had understood
30 what the problem was, it was actually possible to increase
31 the hygiene standards in cooked factories to actually make
32 sure that listeria was not present as a contaminant on
33 cooked products. There is no actual legislation as such.
34
35 Q. You mentioned the changes in relation to a change in the
36 chilling temperatures?
37 A. Well, the chilling, the temperatures at which meat and
38 other products used to move were brought down when it was
39 understood that listeria could actually start from to
40 multiply at temperatures above five degrees, so this is why
41 we set a standard of four degrees to cater for that.
42
43 Q. Listeria is not always killed by cooking, is it?
44 A. Listeria will be killed by cooking, yes.
45
46 Q. I do not know where the new documents we served the other
47 week are. I do not know if they are in tab 15 as well or
48 whether they are somewhere else, the ones about listeria
49 and listeriosis?
50 A. I have got it.
51
52 Q. The Riverside Health Authority document. You have that
53 one? I was after this one at the moment, the Riverside
54 Health Authority.
55
56 MR. MORRIS: With a cartoon on the first page or drawing.
57 A. OK, I have it.
58
59 Q. If you turn to the second page of that and on the
60 right-hand side of that ---
