Day 107 - 24 Mar 95 - Page 51


     
     1   Q.   No.  The raw produce or the raw product in McDonald's
     2        restaurants is all frozen until it is cooked, is it not?
     3        A.  That is my understanding.
     4
     5   Q.   So, whatever pathogens there may be in that raw product are
     6        all locked in at a temperature at which they will not
     7        proliferate until they are cooked?
     8        A.  It would not be wholly true to say they are locked in.
     9        There will obviously be surface contamination.
    10
    11   Q.   There maybe surface contamination?
    12        A.  There will be surface contamination -- without doubt.
    13
    14   Q.   When we talk of contamination, can we confine ourselves to
    15        contamination by pathogenic -----
    16
    17   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Yes, I think you did not mean "locked in" in
    18        the sense of inside, you meant locked in by a temperature
    19        itself, did you not, Mr. Rampton?
    20
    21   MR. RAMPTON:  Whether they be on the surface or inside, they are
    22        not going to proliferate if they are at freezing
    23        temperature?
    24        A.  I absolutely agree.
    25
    26   Q.   Your Lordship is quite right.  They may, of course, in the
    27        process of cooking get a splodge of something from external
    28        sources which may add to their pathogenic burden; is that
    29        right?
    30        A.  That is possible.
    31
    32   Q.   Then you go on, and I want to read on if I may:  "Add to
    33        this the consumption of precooked, convenience foods like
    34        pate and pies" -- no bearing on McDonald's there, I take
    35        it, would you agree?
    36        A.  Indeed not.
    37
    38   Q.   Pausing there, the anaerobic pathogens such as clostridium
    39        botulinum, clostridium perfringens, have no bearing on
    40        McDonald's operation, do they?
    41        A.  Not in the beef burgers, no.
    42
    43   Q.   Nor in the chicken product.  Nothing is vacuum packed,
    44        nothing is canned?
    45        A.  That is not -- could you give me a few seconds to think
    46        this through?
    47
    48   Q.   You said they were anaerobic?
    49        A.  Yes, but -- no, I will -- let me give you a straight
    50        answer -- unlikely. 
    51 
    52   MR. MORRIS:  Could I just say there are some products that are 
    53        vacuum packed by McDonald's ---
    54
    55   MR. RAMPTON:  There is no case being made on that so .....
    56
    57   MR. MORRIS: -- in transport; whether it is a case or not, it is
    58        a fact.  It is said by one of their witnesses.
    59
    60   MR. RAMPTON:  Convenience foods like pate and pies, many of

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