Day 039 - 20 Oct 94 - Page 45
1 degraded Carrageenan, and I find Ekstrom's evidence
2 that -----
3
4 Q. I want to stop you there because if you say "primarily",
5 that brings in the inference "but there have been instances
6 where ulceration and tumours have shown after ingestion of
7 food grade carrageenan". Is that so?
8 A. My reading of the literature is that with food grade
9 Carrageenan in the experiments that I have looked at, there
10 are not gross lesions from food grade Carrageenan, but
11 signs of relatively early proliferation of the kind which
12 might over a lifetime greater than that of the laboratory
13 animal produce -- the kinds of effects that emerge from the
14 degraded form.
15
16 MR. MORRIS: What about the carcinogenicity implications, is
17 that what we are talking about, or just ulcer?
18 A. The clearest indication of overt carcinogenicity have
19 been, I understand, from degraded Carrageenan.
20
21 MR. JUSTICE BELL: From degraded Carrageenan?
22 A. Yes.
23
24 Q. Did you add a word?
25 A. No, I think I said Carrageenan first, then changed my
26 pronunciation but did not change the word.
27
28 Q. Yes. You see, I am worried about the words like "mainly"
29 and "clearest" indication, because if you say the clearest
30 indication of overt carcinogenicity have come from degraded
31 Carrageenan, that again infers that indications, albeit not
32 the clearest, of overt carcinogenicity have come from food
33 grade?
34 A. Yes.
35
36 Q. Are you saying that? Is what you are actually saying?
37 A. That is my understanding of some of the literature
38 which is that there are studies -- forgive me, it is
39 slightly complicated because the authors of the scientific
40 papers do not always provide entirely precise
41 characterisations of the material upon which they have
42 conducted their tests. So, sometimes there is a degree of
43 interpretation as to quite how to characterise the
44 Carrageenans which have been tested. That was certainly
45 true of many of the earlier tests.
46
47 Q. A point which has been made in evidence so far is that
48 before you carry out a test you have to analyse precisely
49 just what you are administering.
50 A. Yes, but the way -----
51
52 Q. You have to make sure -- it is no use calling it -- this is
53 my elaboration of what I have assumed from it -- it is no
54 use just saying, "food grade Carrageenan" or "degraded
55 Carrageenan". Food grade Carrageenan has to be up to a
56 certain specification, and you have to be sure that what
57 you are administering to your animals is actually food
58 grade Carrageenan of that specification before you start
59 calling it such. But that is an elaboration on the
60 evidence but how I understand the point which was made.
