Day 039 - 20 Oct 94 - Page 74


     
     1        animals and the particular sample size.  I think the sample
     2        size is determined, as I indicated in a previous answer,
     3        primarily by reference to economic considerations.
     4
     5   MR. RAMPTON:  I would like to finish with a BHA paper this
     6        evening, if I may, then I will go on to something else.
     7
     8   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Do.  Then we will adjourn for the night.
     9
    10   MR. RAMPTON:  One of the problems of toxicology, as indeed in
    11        every other animal study that may seek to relate science to
    12        the human condition, is that animals are not the same as
    13        humans?
    14        A.  Yes.
    15
    16   Q.   Is it not?
    17        A.  Most certainly is.
    18
    19   Q.   So it helps, does it not, if you can use a wide variety of
    20        animals, I mean species, and particularly if you can climb
    21        up the chain or the ladder, if you like, towards something
    22        that is a bit more like man and its physiology, does it
    23        not?
    24        A.  I would not quite put it like that, Mr. Rampton.
    25        I certainly think that it is entirely desirable that if we
    26        are to use animal models to attempt to explore the effects
    27        which chemicals can have on humans, it is desirable to use
    28        models which are of some demonstrable extrapolative
    29        validity, and one cannot simply correlate that with an
    30        evolutionary hierarchy from rodents to -----
    31
    32   Q.   Let us leave out a discussion of evolution.  It is
    33        desirable, wherever you can, expense and so on and so
    34        forth, allowing to use those species which in the
    35        particular respect that you are investigating most closely
    36        resembles mankind?
    37        A.  It might be, but if that were a dominant consideration
    38        I do not think rats would be used at all.
    39
    40   Q.   I did not say that it was dominant.  I said it is
    41        desirable.
    42        A.  It is certainly desirable, but in practice I do not
    43        think that consideration has been influential in
    44        determining the choice of animal species.
    45
    46   Q.   Please turn to page 262 of the file that is open in front
    47        of you.  You will see in the left-hand column a heading
    48        "Hamsters".  Turn over the page, please, and we see
    49        "Guinea-pigs".  Then we see "Dogs".  We notice:  "Groups
    50        of 29 male and 30 female beagle dogs ... were fed 0, 1.0 or 
    51        1.3% BHA", that is a diet, is it not, "for 180 days", so on 
    52        and so forth? 
    53        A.  Yes.
    54
    55   Q.   Then there are more dogs in the next paragraph and yet more
    56        dogs in the third paragraph?
    57        A.  Yes.
    58
    59   Q.   Then we find pigs?
    60        A.  Yes.

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