Day 120 - 03 May 95 - Page 61


     
     1
     2   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Abstract pleadings, yes, under divider 7.
     3
     4   MR. MORRIS (To the witness):  Are they marked with paragraphs?
     5        A.  Yes.
     6
     7   Q.   If you can go to paragraph 17 on page 6?
     8        A.  Yes.
     9
    10   Q.   These are our allegations:  "In or around early 1993,
    11        Jeffrey Shaw was sacked over a dispute for the right to go
    12        to the toilet during work-time."
    13        A.  Yes.
    14
    15   Q.   Do employees have to ask if they wish to go to the toilet
    16        during work-time?
    17        A.  I would not have thought it was necessary to draw the
    18        attention of the Manager responsible for their area that
    19        they were going because they would have to be covered.  You
    20        could not just walk away from a toaster if you were
    21        toasting buns or walk away from the dressing table if you
    22        were responsible for dressing it with the condiments
    23        without getting someone to replace you.  The only person
    24        who could do that is the Manager responsible for that area.
    25
    26   Q.   So you would have to ask for authorisation?
    27        A.  Well, it is not so much asking for authorisation.  If a
    28        person has to go to the toilet, they have to go to the
    29        toilet, but it is a case of getting someone to replace
    30        them.
    31
    32   Q.   Right.  So they have to get authorisation?
    33
    34   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  You see, you use the word "authorisation"
    35        which makes it look as if you might have to put a bit of
    36        paper in and get an official stamp on it; whereas I can
    37        imagine what someone might say to his Manager:  "I would
    38        like to pop out for a minute".  The Manager will either
    39        say:  "Okay" or "Can you hang on just a bit longer?" and
    40        then when he can be replaced off he goes, which I would
    41        have thought most people would think is an inoffensive way
    42        of treating an employee.
    43
    44   MR. MORRIS:  So would "permission" be a better word?  You have
    45        to get permission?
    46        A.  All right.  If you want to use that, but I do not even
    47        think it is as strong as that.  If you want to go to the
    48        toilet, you have to go to the toilet.  It is very difficult
    49        for some people to refrain from not going to the toilet as
    50        soon as they want to go.  But you, obviously, have to be 
    51        relieved, I mean, by another person -- I apologise, my 
    52        Lord. 
    53
    54   Q.   The Manager is the only person that could -----
    55        A.  Well, you are not talking about the Restaurant Manager
    56        or even the Shift Running Manager.
    57
    58   Q.   Whoever is the head -----
    59        A.  Whoever is the head person in charge of that little
    60        unit will say:  "Right, can you hang on a minute?  Charlie,

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