Day 085 - 08 Feb 95 - Page 56
1 Q. If you look at page 17 of this statement, do you have that?
2 A. Yes.
3
4 Q. You said something about a 63 to 85 or something curve. Is
5 that the kind of thing you were talking about?
6 A. No, it is not. I was talking about, it is my belief
7 that there is a general publication put out by health
8 authorities that bacteria will be able to grow in
9 conditions between 5 degrees centigrade and 63 degrees
10 centigrade.
11
12 Q. But if you look at this chart, are you aware of a time
13 temperature curve for thermal death point cooking of meat?
14 A. Sorry, could you please say that again?
15
16 Q. Are you aware that there are time temperature curves for
17 the thermal death point at which bacteria is guaranteed to
18 be killed?
19 A. I am aware that to kill bacteria it is a combination of
20 the temperature and the time at which the bacteria has been
21 subjected to that temperature.
22
23 Q. If something is at 63 degrees it may take an hour to kill
24 bacteria, whereas if something is at 80 degrees it may take
25 10 seconds. Is that the general principle?
26 A. I would say those figures are wildly away from what is
27 the reality.
28
29 MR. JUSTICE BELL: It is only meant to be an illustration.
30 A. If it is an illustration, fine.
31
32 MR. JUSTICE BELL: In fact, he has answered your question. He
33 is aware that to kill bacteria it is a combination of time
34 and temperature. If you put that on a graph it becomes a
35 curve.
36
37 MR. MORRIS: Are you aware that if something reaches the
38 temperature of whatever, well, I do not know how much more
39 to ask really -----
40
41 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I think you have gone as far as you can with
42 the curve, because he said his source of information was
43 not in the form of a time temperature curve; it was just in
44 respect of some figures published by some body.
45
46 MR. MORRIS: So it is important how long a piece of meat is
47 subjected to certain temperatures; not just that it happens
48 to reach that particular temperature?
49 A. The higher temperature the less time the bacteria has
50 to be exposed to it to kill it.
51
52 MS. STEEL: I am going back to something else in that bundle.
53 If you could turn to tab 18 in that bundle. Have you seen
54 that before?
55 A. I am sure when I was in operations it came to me in
56 February 1991, although I do not look to be on the mailing
57 list, to be honest.
58
59 Q. What was your position at that time?
60 A. Senior supervisor.
