Day 070 - 20 Dec 94 - Page 15
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2 MR. RAMPTON: They could not conceivably.
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4 MR. JUSTICE BELL: You say that, and you might very well be
5 right.
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7 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, that was the test of relevance which
8 I posed a moment ago. If we should come upon any
9 McDonald's documents or documents from others which
10 McDonald's have got which show that, in fact, the account
11 that Mr. Walker has given and that Lord Vesty has given is
12 inaccurate and that the beef came from the heart of the
13 Amazon -----
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15 MR. JUSTICE BELL: At the moment, I am unpersuaded. I would
16 have thought that any documentation that shows where it
17 comes from is just as relevant as if it shows it came from
18 an area which has not been rainforest for over 100 years,
19 or that it came from an area which has never been
20 rainforest over any kind of periods wherein records have
21 been kept. The negative is as important as the positive.
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23 MR. RAMPTON: I agree. What, in my respectful submission, is
24 not right is that it should go beyond that. That is the
25 relevant question: where in Brazil did it grow; where was
26 it grown; where was it grazed; not whether it was imported
27 into this country or anywhere else -- except America, of
28 course, United States. That is a different issue, or at
29 least in some part a different issue.
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31 But I would certainly not agree to make any discovery of
32 documents within McDonald's possession, custody or power
33 beyond documents which are apt to show, yea or nay, whether
34 these animals were grown on rainforest or recently
35 deforested rainforest land.
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37 One might suppose -- and this is a comment which is perhaps
38 not very useful -- in the nature of things, that it is
39 highly unlikely that there will be any such documents,
40 depending upon the personal knowledge of the people
41 concerned. But I certainly go with your Lordship to that
42 extent.
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44 MR. JUSTICE BELL: What, at the moment, I am minded to think you
45 have to show before it is relevant is that you have some
46 grounds for thinking that beef has gone from Brazil to
47 McDonald's, or a supplier of McDonald's, which beef either
48 came from -- I will use the same nebulous phrase as has
49 been used in the evidence -- recently deforested rainforest
50 land or fed on grain, soya, from any such area. At the
51 moment, I am having difficulty seeing that the admitted
52 export of 80 tonnes during one period is any reasonable
53 ground for thinking that that might be so.
54
55 It is a completely different situation to the one you have
56 in regard to Coope Montecillos because, whether or not at
57 the end of the day I think any admissible evidence in that
58 area carries any weight, at least you have a basis for
59 putting forward the case.
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