Day 081 - 31 Jan 95 - Page 36


     
     1   Q.   So, with salmonella in chickens, really, it is only the
     2        cooking that provides protection?
     3        A.  Well, the eradication scheme to remove it from flocks
     4        is obviously important, so clean, hygienic premises is
     5        important to try to reduce the amount.  But, at the end of
     6        the day, it is the cooking which is the safeguard.
     7
     8   Q.   It is important to avoid cross-contamination as well, like
     9        with beef?
    10
    11   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I have understood that to be part of the
    12        hygiene, generally?
    13        A.  Part of the hygiene to reduce it as much as possible.
    14
    15   MR. MORRIS:  With chicken products, McDonald's, do they blend --
    16        did you see or do you know if they blend various, like with
    17        the meat they blend into a patty, do they do the same with
    18        the chicken products; take various number of birds and
    19        blend it into a product?
    20        A.  Yes, they would have to.
    21
    22   Q.   So the cross-contamination could occur then?
    23        A.  Yes.
    24
    25   Q.   I think you can put that tab away.  Thank you very much.
    26
    27   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Just pause for a minute.  Does what you say
    28        really amount to this, that things being as they are at the
    29        moment, you have to work on the basis that your chicken
    30        tissues may very well contain salmonella?
    31        A.  That is so at the moment.  I think everyone should be
    32        aware that there is a potential.  There are ways of
    33        eradicating it.  Irradiation would remove it but people are
    34        reluctant to accept radiated birds.
    35
    36   Q.   Things being what they are, you must work on the principle
    37        that there may very well be salmonella in any chicken
    38        product you propose to eat before you cook it ---
    39        A.  Yes.
    40
    41   Q.   -- at the point where you take it to the stove, as it were?
    42        A.  Yes, sir.
    43
    44   Q.   That is why with regard to salmonella cooking is
    45        particularly important if you just cannot under any
    46        circumstances work on the basis that there is no salmonella
    47        in this piece of chicken or this egg before you cook it?
    48        A.  Yes, sir, it is unwise to do so.  The Environmental
    49        Health professional bodies and the Ministry of Agriculture
    50        do have programmes from time to time, particularly at 
    51        Christmas time, to ensure that people thoroughly cook their 
    52        poultry. 
    53
    54   MR. MORRIS:  Mr. North seems to have -- we are not sure exactly
    55        what he means because we all tried to understand it --
    56        about the incidence in live birds being one per cent and in
    57        the processed meat 25 per cent of salmonella.  Would it be
    58        fair to say that the concentration of bacteria, in general,
    59        the TVC or the -- what is the other one that you had,
    60        I cannot remember what it was -- CFU?

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