Day 087 - 10 Feb 95 - Page 37


     
     1   MR. MORRIS:  I think that would be very helpful.
     2
     3   MR. RAMPTON:  My Lord, I would be very, very unhappy about your
     4        Lordship starting to draft pleadings for the Defendants.
     5
     6   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  No, it is not a pleading.  It is a list of
     7        matters which, as I see it, I have yet to be addressed
     8        upon.
     9
    10   MR. RAMPTON:  That is quite different, of course.  I would
    11        welcome that.  Before any question of further discovery in
    12        relation to Brazil arose, I might want to address your
    13        Lordship at length on the relationship between pleading and
    14        discovery (as I have done in the past but might well wish
    15        to do it again) as outlined by the late 1960 cases which
    16        were left undisturbed (as they had to be) by the Court of
    17        Appeal in its recent judgment.
    18
    19        There is, as your Lordship knows, and has remained in place
    20        a vital distinction between a pleading based on proper
    21        grounds and what might be called a fishing expedition based
    22        on wishful thinking and speculation.  My Lord, that is a
    23        serious question in this case.  I would not want the
    24        Defendants to think that simply by producing a piece of
    25        paper asserting what they would like to believe was the
    26        position they could get discovery.
    27
    28   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I hope I was not suggesting that either.  It
    29        may or may not come to that at the end of the day.  But
    30        what I was proposing was a list of loose ends which the
    31        Defendants may want to argue further or which, in any
    32        event, I have not heard what you have to say, Mr. Rampton.
    33
    34   MR. RAMPTON:  My Lord, my list does not include Brazil because,
    35        as far as I can tell, the Defendants make a negative
    36        allegation to this effect, that they do not believe what
    37        Lord Vesty said in that letter.  If that is a case of
    38        justification, then (and I put it bluntly) I am a Dutch
    39        man.  That far no further do I go at present.  I do not
    40        believe that I have anything further that I need to say
    41        about Brazil.  There is no case.  That is one.
    42
    43        Can I tell your Lordship -----
    44
    45   MR. MORRIS:  It is not about the Vesty matter; it is about the
    46        general use of beef in Brazil.
    47
    48   MR. RAMPTON:  No, please, Mr. Morris.  My Lord, unless and until
    49        there is a case on Brazil, I do not believe there is
    50        anything for me to argue about. 
    51 
    52   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  The trouble is, it is not pleaded yet. 
    53
    54   MR. MORRIS:  No.
    55
    56   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  If it came to be pleaded then there might be
    57        arguments about whether it should be or not if an
    58        application was made for leave.  There is a pleading at the
    59        moment in there (which might not have been after last
    60        November but is there) to the effect that if any beef is

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