Day 052 - 21 Nov 94 - Page 28
1 taking issue with -- I have to say that I was pondering in
2 my mind just how far the admission that there was a
3 considerable amount of evidence of a relationship between a
4 diet high etc. and heart disease went and whether, in fact,
5 that did amount to an admission of a causal relationship
6 between such a diet and heart disease.
7
8 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, I do not believe that -----
9
10 MR. JUSTICE BELL: It was an admission which was directed at the
11 words which the Defendants had used in their particulars of
12 justification, because in relation to heart disease they
13 used the words "relationship between" or something similar
14 anyway.
15
16 MR. RAMPTON: They did. That has always been in one sense the
17 trouble.
18
19 MR. JUSTICE BELL: "An association between", "a relationship
20 between".
21
22 MR. RAMPTON: Yes. It is difficult to get out of the habit,,
23 perhaps, for a member of the Bar or the solicitors of
24 admitting that which is pleaded against you rather than
25 something which is not. On the whole, the latter practice
26 is discouraged. It is only when I have got into this court
27 and it has become clear (if it was not already) that the
28 issue was nothing to do with whether some scientists
29 thought this, or other scientists thought that, in relation
30 to association as opposed to causation, that it occurred to
31 me (and it was some time ago now; I do believe I have
32 mentioned it) that it was necessary to say, neither side
33 having any evidence on the question, that the causal nature
34 of the relationship between diet and heart disease was
35 accepted.
36
37 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Yes. I have said on a number of occasions in
38 the past, I think as recently as last Monday morning, that
39 I would welcome some help from the Defendants as to what in
40 their pleadings words like "links between", "relationship
41 between", "association between" actually meant. Since your
42 admission is directed at their use of those words, the same
43 would apply to the admission as well.
44
45 MR. RAMPTON: I quite agree. All I would say in defence of our
46 admission, though I accept it does not take the matter much
47 forward further, is that it does spring, as your Lordship
48 has observed, from the way in which the defence is framed.
49 As your Lordship knows, my second application which I will,
50 if I may (because they really run on together), tack on to
51 this first one, is that the Defendants should be ordered to
52 state what the nature of their case is in this area of the
53 action, because it simply is not (and I am now getting
54 ahead of myself) right that we, on the other hand, specify
55 what we see to be the true meaning of the leaflet, whilst
56 the Defendants, on the other hand, as it were, go along
57 looking in both directions, hoping that the evidence may
58 come out to support the stronger meaning, but if it does
59 not they are willing to fall back on the weaker meaning.
60
