Day 020 - 28 Jul 94 - Page 25


     
     1        A.  Yes.
 
     2   Q.   Considering you were able to reduce the depth of the neck
              cut whilst you were there so only 20 per cent of the birds
     3        had their spinal cord cut, was there any reason why the
              company could not have done this immediately after your
     4        February visit?
              A.  Not that I am aware of, but I suggest you address that
     5        question to Dr. Pattison.
 
     6   Q.   The tests you did that are mentioned on page 8 about
              grasping the heads of the four birds that were found to be
     7        breathing rythmically at 37 seconds post neck cutting?
              A.  Yes.
     8
         Q.   Would it be common to have recoil after the necks were
     9        cut?
              A.  I have certainly observed it in birds which have been
    10        undoubtedly conscious at that position in the line in
              other situations, yes.
    11
         Q.   But would it actually be common?
    12        A.  Possibly not.  I would say possibly not, yes, because
              they would, in fact, be unconscious.
    13
         Q.   Could you be sure in the tests that you did that there was
    14        no way that any of those birds could feel pain even though
              they were not able to express it by movement?
    15        A.  In those birds that were breathing, do you mean?
              Which birds are you referring to?
    16
         Q.   OK.  Take those ones.
    17        A.  OK.  I cannot be certain, but if they had any
              conscious abilities at all, I would expect on grabbing,
    18        holding, the head for the bird to recoil from that.  It is
              a threatening type of gesture for the birds.  It involves
    19        physical contact and if the birds are conscious they
              usually, if not invariably, recoil.
    20
         Q.   Even if they are weak from having their necks cut?
    21        A.  That is a good point, in which case they may be
              semicomotose.  You are talking about a fine balance or
    22        fine distinction between the interface of consciousness to
              unconsciousness.
    23
         Q.   But you cannot be sure they definitely would not have
    24        pain?
              A.  I cannot be 100 per cent certain, no.
    25
         Q.   There is another paper I wanted to hand up. 
    26 
         MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Where have all these papers come from at 
    27        this late stage?
 
    28   MS. STEEL:   I am not sure.  Some of them may have been
              disclosed and some of them are just for the purposes of
    29        cross-examination.
 
    30   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  It does not matter whether they are just for
              the purpose of cross-examination.  In fact, it is almost

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