Day 086 - 09 Feb 95 - Page 44


     
     1        A.  To look at it, using your eyesight.
     2
     3   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Yes, I think what is being suggested is that
     4        you have to pull it apart to see if it is cooked right
     5        through.  Do you agree with that?
     6        A.  To see if it is cooked right through, the best way
     7        would be to pull it apart, yes.
     8
     9   MR. MORRIS:  If, on inspection, it had been noted that a burger
    10        had a bloody appearance, may that cause you concern?
    11        A.  Yes, a bloody appearance could be construed as, you
    12        know, the product may be under-cooked.
    13
    14   Q.   Why were you not worried in the section that you have read
    15        about the possibility of cross-contamination between raw
    16        and cooked products?
    17        A.  I think in this assessment, it is important to
    18        understand how bacteria are grown and transfer, and a large
    19        part of our system rests on our temperature control and the
    20        meat that arrives in the restaurant arrives at a
    21        temperature of between minus 18 to minus 23.  It is kept at
    22        that temperature right up until the grill side, so there is
    23        no opportunity for bacteria growth.
    24
    25        It is then placed on the grill and cooked for, on an old
    26        grill, for 120 seconds, on a new grill for 44 seconds.  The
    27        temperature at which bacteria can multiply, as I mentioned
    28        yesterday, is between five and 63 degrees.  It will retain
    29        that temperature for either 44 or 120 seconds.  It is then
    30        transferred to the bun, put in a production bin and served
    31        to the customer within 10 minutes.  There just is not
    32        chance for any bacteria to multiply within that period.
    33
    34   Q.   It is not talking about multiplication; it is talking about
    35        transfer of bacteria on an uncooked product, for example,
    36        an uncooked burger, from fingers to ---
    37        A.  Sorry, I touched -----
    38
    39   Q.   -- other products?
    40        A.  I touched the uncooked burger -- in this system you
    41        touch the uncooked burger with your hand and then you cook
    42        it on a platen at 350 degrees Fahrenheit on one side, 425
    43        the other side, so it will kill any bacteria that was
    44        transferred to it.
    45
    46   Q.   I believe the concern is (and tell me if you share this
    47        concern) that if an uncooked burger contains bacteria and
    48        the person who inevitably touches those burgers as they are
    49        cooking then touches salad products that are not going to
    50        be cooked, then there is a possibility of transfer of 
    51        contamination, would that concern you? 
    52        A.  It does not concern me.  I very much understand your 
    53        argument.  It is one that Environmental Health Officers
    54        bring to us on many occasions.  It is one that we explain
    55        to them on many occasions, and in every time that I have
    56        been involved in it or heard of it, the Environmental
    57        Health Department have been happy with our explanation.  It
    58        is all due to time and temperature and our controls on time
    59        and temperature.
    60

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