Day 079 - 27 Jan 95 - Page 75


     
     1        against a Defendant.  It certainly is one.
     2
     3   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  But am I not right that at this stage when we
     4        are actually hearing evidence from a witness who knows
     5        something about the rearing and slaughter of animals, as
     6        well as the processing of meat therefrom, with him we can
     7        leave opinion on one side?
     8
     9   MR. RAMPTON:  Entirely.
    10
    11   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  And the cross-examination of Mr. Walker ought
    12        to be related to matters of facts, such as whether animals
    13        get frantic in certain situations.  I do not think it
    14        appears in the leaflet, but I do not take any objection to
    15        asking whether a cow or calf shows a sign of distress when
    16        parted or anything which is, as it were, hard information
    17        of that kind.
    18
    19   MR. RAMPTON:  No, my Lord.
    20
    21   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Long before Ms. Steel or Mr. Morris address
    22        me at the end of the case, we might agree a test with
    23        regard to any expression of opinion or the use of any
    24        qualitative word like "murder" or "torture", but that we
    25        need not concern ourselves with during Mr. Walker's
    26        evidence.
    27
    28   MR. RAMPTON:  That is absolutely right.  If he is a witness who
    29        has factual evidence to give about what happens to the
    30        animals in the course of their passage from the farm
    31        through the slaughterhouse, then he may be asked about it.
    32        How it is evaluated in terms of moral (inaudible) or
    33        otherwise is entirely matter for argument later on.
    34
    35   MS. STEEL:  I do not understand this because my question was
    36        actually a factual matter.  I asked Mr. Walker if animals
    37        suffered and he said "yes".
    38
    39   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  That is fair enough.  That was fair enough.
    40        What I am inviting you to do when we come back on Monday
    41        is, having got that answer and having heard him express the
    42        opinion which I will have to consider when I have heard all
    43        the evidence, that it is very difficult to know the extent
    44        of an animal's suffering in many circumstances anyway, you
    45        really ought to be concentrating on illustrating, if you
    46        can, via his evidence those things which you say happen
    47        which you will argue in due course to me must mean that the
    48        animal is suffering.  Do you understand?
    49
    50   MS. STEEL:  We were going to, yes. 
    51 
    52   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  The second compartment, having got that 
    53        simple answer which you did get late yesterday afternoon,
    54        can be left on Monday.
    55
    56   MR. RAMPTON:  I would only say this, my Lord:  Ms. Steel should
    57        not be under any illusion that I would accept that that
    58        answer or the fact that there may be some suffering
    59        inflicted on animals in the course of the process is
    60        sufficient for her purposes to found a defence because I do

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