Day 102 - 13 Mar 95 - Page 50


     
     1        limbs.  It is not something that specifically causes us a
     2        problem.
     3
     4   Q.   How long does the process of taking the birds from the
     5        arrival yard to actually being shackled take?
     6        A.  That is very quick.  It takes about 10 minutes.
     7
     8   Q.   You said that it is much better to have a shackle
     9        specifically designed for the specific weight of the bird.
    10        What exactly is much better about the specifically designed
    11        shackles?
    12        A.  Well, the importance of the shackle is that it should
    13        be designed for the particular weight of bird that is going
    14        to be put on it.  So, in other words, the width of the
    15        shackle should relate to the size of the chicken's leg.
    16
    17   Q.   Why is that?
    18        A.  Well, because obviously if the shackles are too small
    19        to hang larger birds on, you would have to force the legs
    20        on and that is not really a very nice thing to do.
    21
    22   Q.   It would cause the birds pain?
    23        A.  It would cause the birds pain.
    24
    25   Q.   That was the situation before you changed in 1993?
    26        A.  It is all a relative degree.  It depends how small the
    27        shackle is and how large the bird is, I think the degree
    28        that we are talking about.
    29
    30   Q.   But it was a problem prior to changing over?
    31        A.  Obviously, the idea was to improve our system so that
    32        it was more suitable for the weight of the bird.
    33
    34   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I think -- I do not want to get away from the
    35        point -- what is being suggested is that you, obviously,
    36        want to improve the site, but what is being put to you,
    37        fair and square, is before you had larger shackles for male
    38        birds they were all one size.  In other words, of the two
    39        sizes you had after the change, they were all the smaller
    40        size before, and this must have involved putting a lot of
    41        male legs of larger circumference into shackles which were
    42        too small, thereby causing pain to the cockerels.  What do
    43        you say about that?
    44        A.  I would say that you could infer that, but I do not
    45        think that is strictly true.  It is all a matter of degree
    46        and there are certain degrees that we would not go to.  So,
    47        if you are forcing large birds on to small shackles,
    48        I think that becomes unacceptable.
    49
    50   Q.   But what happened before to the birds which it was thought 
    51        needed the larger shackles? 
    52        A.  Well, they get -- I mean, they are put on the smaller 
    53        shackles.  I mean, a shackle is something which is not --
    54        I mean, it is wider at the top than it is at the bottom.
    55        So, if you put a larger leg on, it hangs higher up in the
    56        shackle than the smaller bird.  So, it is all a matter of
    57        degree.  I would not accept that we force the legs on to
    58        the shackle when it is of that inherent shape anyway.
    59
    60   MS. STEEL:   If it was all OK, why was there any need to change?

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