Day 039 - 20 Oct 94 - Page 74
1 animals and the particular sample size. I think the sample
2 size is determined, as I indicated in a previous answer,
3 primarily by reference to economic considerations.
4
5 MR. RAMPTON: I would like to finish with a BHA paper this
6 evening, if I may, then I will go on to something else.
7
8 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Do. Then we will adjourn for the night.
9
10 MR. RAMPTON: One of the problems of toxicology, as indeed in
11 every other animal study that may seek to relate science to
12 the human condition, is that animals are not the same as
13 humans?
14 A. Yes.
15
16 Q. Is it not?
17 A. Most certainly is.
18
19 Q. So it helps, does it not, if you can use a wide variety of
20 animals, I mean species, and particularly if you can climb
21 up the chain or the ladder, if you like, towards something
22 that is a bit more like man and its physiology, does it
23 not?
24 A. I would not quite put it like that, Mr. Rampton.
25 I certainly think that it is entirely desirable that if we
26 are to use animal models to attempt to explore the effects
27 which chemicals can have on humans, it is desirable to use
28 models which are of some demonstrable extrapolative
29 validity, and one cannot simply correlate that with an
30 evolutionary hierarchy from rodents to -----
31
32 Q. Let us leave out a discussion of evolution. It is
33 desirable, wherever you can, expense and so on and so
34 forth, allowing to use those species which in the
35 particular respect that you are investigating most closely
36 resembles mankind?
37 A. It might be, but if that were a dominant consideration
38 I do not think rats would be used at all.
39
40 Q. I did not say that it was dominant. I said it is
41 desirable.
42 A. It is certainly desirable, but in practice I do not
43 think that consideration has been influential in
44 determining the choice of animal species.
45
46 Q. Please turn to page 262 of the file that is open in front
47 of you. You will see in the left-hand column a heading
48 "Hamsters". Turn over the page, please, and we see
49 "Guinea-pigs". Then we see "Dogs". We notice: "Groups
50 of 29 male and 30 female beagle dogs ... were fed 0, 1.0 or
51 1.3% BHA", that is a diet, is it not, "for 180 days", so on
52 and so forth?
53 A. Yes.
54
55 Q. Then there are more dogs in the next paragraph and yet more
56 dogs in the third paragraph?
57 A. Yes.
58
59 Q. Then we find pigs?
60 A. Yes.
