Day 010 - 11 Jul 94 - Page 69


     
     1
         Q.   Mr. Lipsett, please understand something?
     2        A.  Yes.
 
     3   Q.   What people say or what we read out about what other
              people have said or did not say, does not prove anything;
     4        what matters is what was the truth at the time?
              A.  Well, essentially, then what my point is, is that our
     5        relationship -- this goes to the truth of our relationship
              with these environmental organisations in at least the
     6        specific sense.  If you flip to the back side of that page
              hopefully, or the next page, we asked them for comments --
     7        actually starting on the page previously -- David Doniger,
              NRDC's representative, says:  "I did not see that we had
     8        any leverage on them to say you all ought to go to
              cardboard. And EDF Michael Oppenheimer admits that CFC and
     9        HCFC are the same chemical and that chemical is capable of
              destroying ozone in the stratosphere".
    10
              We wrote them after this article came out and Doniger
    11        responded by denying, they condoned the deception.  This
              is part of the issue here, the deception that McDonald's,
    12        that more notes in McDonald's use of CFCs free on their
              liner, on their trays in their restaurants.
    13
         Q.   It is not part of the issue here.  That is not for you to
    14        decide, Mr. Lipsett; that is for his Lordship.
              A.  I am sorry.
    15
         Q.   What is in issue in this case is not for you to decide; it
    16        is for the judge to decide.
              A.  Forgive me, please.  EDF, director Fred Crup defended
    17        his part in the industry negotiations.  We do not condone
              the semantic games played on this issue, but the basic
    18        fact remains that one industry decided to act responsibly.
              FPI and McDonald's deserve criticism for over-stating
    19        their environmental accomplishments so far, but also
              praise for taking a 95 per cent step towards solving 100
    20        per cent of a serious environmental problem.  Friends of
              the Earth did not reply to Paul Preston".  We were
    21        concerned at the time ----
 
    22   Q.   Mr. Lipsett, I am sorry, we have a limited amount of
              time.  If I do not finish my cross-examination this
    23        afternoon, you will have to come back tomorrow.  I do not
              know if that is inconvenient or not.  I am not trying to
    24        threaten you.  My question originally was -- I will put it
              a different way -- the Natural Resources Defence Council,
    25        the Environmental Defence Fund and the Friends of the
              Earth warmly applauded McDonald's decision, amongst others 
    26        in the industry, to move from CFC-11 and 12 to HCFC-22, 
              did they not? 
    27        A.  That is true.
 
    28   Q.   Are you suggesting that their approval of that change was
              simply a result of the fact they had been conned by the
    29        industry's scientists?
              A.  No.
    30
         Q.   That is in April 1988.  Do you accept that in April 1988

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