Day 020 - 28 Jul 94 - Page 10


     
     1        A.  This is correct.
 
     2   Q.   After hitting the water until sometime before the end of
              the four seconds, do you remember we had a number of
     3        questions and answers on that?  Is this the same point?
              A.  This is the same issue.
     4
         MS. STEEL:   On the first paragraph on page 250 you, in fact,
     5        only tested a limited number of birds for corneal reflex?
              A.  Yes.
     6
         Q.   Is it possible that some birds may have been stunned
     7        sufficiently to render them paralysed but not sufficiently
              to ensure they could not feel pain?
     8        A.  In my view, I think that is unlikely; it is possible
              but I think it is unlikely.
     9
         Q.   Right.  Is it possible that where you had a different size
    10        of bird going into the water bath and receiving different
              amounts of current, that could also affect whether or not
    11        they were going to be properly stunned, make it more
              likely they are not going to be properly stunned, or not
    12        effectively stunned?
              A.  Let me answer that in two ways.  As a generalisation
    13        applying to electrical stunning of poultry, what you say
              is absolutely correct.  In the case of my observations
    14        here, they did not support the supposition that that was
              relevant here, because the birds leaving the stunner did
    15        not show escape behaviour and they were not breathing,
              which are the primary criteria for establishing whether
    16        they are conscious or unconscious.
 
    17   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  In the limited number of birds that were
              tested there was the lack of corneal reflex as well?  Are
    18        you saying that the first two were sufficient for you?
              A.  Precisely.  One does a corneal test subsequently as an
    19        additional test when one observes behaviour which is
              symptomatic of consciousness.  So, for instance, if a bird
    20        was breathing, I would grab its head.  I would pull,
              I would do a corneal reflex almost in one or two actions,
    21        but synchronous actions.  So the corneal test would have
              been done in that sort of situation.  I did, however, as
    22        an addition, test it on a few birds for confidence.
 
    23   Q.   So the limited number you tested for corneal reflex were
              not done because there was no sign of escape behaviour?
    24        A.  No.
 
    25   Q.   Or any sign of breathing.  You just did a sample in any
              event; is that right? 
    26        A.  Yes, that is right, just for additional confidence. 
  
    27   MS. STEEL:   How many birds did you actually observe in
              relation to this paragraph?
    28        A.  I do not recall.
 
    29   Q.   Can you not put any figure on it at all?
              A.  The usual procedure I adopt when doing an audit of
    30        this nature is to observe, stand on the line for, and
              observe this sort of position, for approximately ten

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