Day 079 - 27 Jan 95 - Page 75
1 against a Defendant. It certainly is one.
2
3 MR. JUSTICE BELL: But am I not right that at this stage when we
4 are actually hearing evidence from a witness who knows
5 something about the rearing and slaughter of animals, as
6 well as the processing of meat therefrom, with him we can
7 leave opinion on one side?
8
9 MR. RAMPTON: Entirely.
10
11 MR. JUSTICE BELL: And the cross-examination of Mr. Walker ought
12 to be related to matters of facts, such as whether animals
13 get frantic in certain situations. I do not think it
14 appears in the leaflet, but I do not take any objection to
15 asking whether a cow or calf shows a sign of distress when
16 parted or anything which is, as it were, hard information
17 of that kind.
18
19 MR. RAMPTON: No, my Lord.
20
21 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Long before Ms. Steel or Mr. Morris address
22 me at the end of the case, we might agree a test with
23 regard to any expression of opinion or the use of any
24 qualitative word like "murder" or "torture", but that we
25 need not concern ourselves with during Mr. Walker's
26 evidence.
27
28 MR. RAMPTON: That is absolutely right. If he is a witness who
29 has factual evidence to give about what happens to the
30 animals in the course of their passage from the farm
31 through the slaughterhouse, then he may be asked about it.
32 How it is evaluated in terms of moral (inaudible) or
33 otherwise is entirely matter for argument later on.
34
35 MS. STEEL: I do not understand this because my question was
36 actually a factual matter. I asked Mr. Walker if animals
37 suffered and he said "yes".
38
39 MR. JUSTICE BELL: That is fair enough. That was fair enough.
40 What I am inviting you to do when we come back on Monday
41 is, having got that answer and having heard him express the
42 opinion which I will have to consider when I have heard all
43 the evidence, that it is very difficult to know the extent
44 of an animal's suffering in many circumstances anyway, you
45 really ought to be concentrating on illustrating, if you
46 can, via his evidence those things which you say happen
47 which you will argue in due course to me must mean that the
48 animal is suffering. Do you understand?
49
50 MS. STEEL: We were going to, yes.
51
52 MR. JUSTICE BELL: The second compartment, having got that
53 simple answer which you did get late yesterday afternoon,
54 can be left on Monday.
55
56 MR. RAMPTON: I would only say this, my Lord: Ms. Steel should
57 not be under any illusion that I would accept that that
58 answer or the fact that there may be some suffering
59 inflicted on animals in the course of the process is
60 sufficient for her purposes to found a defence because I do
