Day 093 - 28 Feb 95 - Page 08


     
     1   Q.   So the final paragraph of the article says:  "The
     2        activation of specific nociceptors" -----
     3        A.  I am sorry, where is that?
     4
     5   Q.   The final paragraph, "and spontaneous discharges
     6        originating from stump neuromas are implicated in acute and
     7        chronic pain syndrome.  From previous work it is clear that
     8        the process of beak trimming results in the activation of
     9        specific nociceptors in the beak at the time of surgery.
    10        From the work presented here it is clear that neuromas are
    11        formed as a result of the amputation and that these
    12        neuromas probably give rise to abnormal spontaneous nervous
    13        activity".  Do you accept that?
    14        A.  No, I do not.  (1) it says "probably" which means, the
    15        last line or second to the last line, it says "probably";
    16        that has not been proven yet.  It says "activity", it does
    17        not mean that that activity is transmitted to the nervous
    18        central system.
    19
    20   Q.   Would you accept -----
    21
    22   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Just let me ask a question about that.  Leave
    23        your point about a third of the beak as opposed to half a
    24        centimetre or 1/64th of an inch, or whatever aside; on the
    25        basis of what they did to this breed of laying hens, do you
    26        think it is probable that the birds, or a significant
    27        proportion of them, in the survey suffered pain or
    28        discomfort from the amputation?
    29        A.  No, I do not think so.  The beaks are pretty much like
    30        nails.  We do have -- we have some feeling but when we are
    31        clipping or we burn the tip, that does not pass pain to the
    32        brain.
    33
    34   Q.   But if you clip your nail, I understand your point, there
    35        are no nerves actually in the nail itself anywhere near the
    36        tip, are there?
    37        A.  No, no.
    38
    39   Q.   If you press the end of your nail, of course, you would
    40        feel it because the force goes back down the nail and will
    41        press against an innervated tissue ---
    42        A.  Right.
    43
    44   Q.   -- what is being suggested here is that the nerves do
    45        actually extend into the amputated part of the beak and
    46        where the nerves are cut neuromas form at least in some
    47        cases, and that leads to abnormal sensation.  That is what
    48        it is saying.
    49        A.  OK.
    50 
    51   Q.   Do you accept that that is probably so?  It may not be 
    52        proven to your scientific standards, but do you accept that 
    53        it is probably so in the circumstances of this survey which
    54        involved cutting off as much as one-third of the beak?
    55        A.  No, I am sorry, but I am a trained scientist.  I deal
    56        with facts and I cannot accept that.  I do know that there
    57        are some scientists and I do not know the reputation or
    58        where it was published and, therefore, who the scientist
    59        is.  There are -- I have seen a lot of them that says
    60        "probably" at the end so that they can get funds again to

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