Day 290 - 30 Oct 96 - Page 40


     
     1        his -----
     2
     3   MS. STEEL:   Well, he agreed with it.  I mean, he said "yes".
     4        When I read that paragraph out about the animal being
     5        paralysed without being rendered unconscious and may suffer
     6        severe pain, he said, "Yes."  He did not disagree.  (Pause)
     7
     8   MR. JUSTICE BELL:   He deals with it at pages 68 and 69.  He
     9        said that it was not possible to determine whether it was
    10        more than a risk that the current would immobilise the pig
    11        through its effect on the spinal cord without rendering it
    12        instantaneously insensible.  You would have to do a test to
    13        do that, which he was obviously unhappy about
    14        doing. "I would have expected, based on our experience,
    15        that a proportion of pigs would not be instantaneously
    16        stunned.  They would get current through the neck instead.
    17        That would cause them pain, or it could cause them pain.
    18        It could do.  It would certainly cause them distress.  That
    19        is likely."
    20
    21   MS. STEEL:   Yes.  Obviously, did he not carry out any direct
    22        experiments to find out whether or not they were suffering
    23        severe pain, because, presumably, he did not have all the
    24        equipment there with him; and that was not what he was
    25        there for, anyway.  But the point is that if it is in the
    26        Codes of Practice that that should not be done, presumably,
    27        it is in there for a reason; and tests have established
    28        that it is extremely painful for the animal concerned; and
    29        there is absolutely no reason to assume that it would be
    30        any different for the pigs at Bowes.  Otherwise, I mean,
    31        you would have to test every individual animal before you
    32        could ever say it was suffering pain.  It would just be a
    33        ludicrous situation.  It is total common sense that if it
    34        is in the Codes of Practice as something that should not be
    35        done because it causes severe pain, then ---
    36
    37   MR. JUSTICE BELL:   No.
    38
    39   MS. STEEL:  -- that is going to apply to all pigs.
    40
    41   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Your point may be just the same.  But did the
    42        Codes of Practice say it does cause severe pain or there is
    43        a risk of it?  His evidence, whatever was in the Codes of
    44        Practice, was that there was a risk of it.  The further
    45        questions and answers were to see the extent to which you
    46        could demonstrate, via his answers, that the risk meant
    47        that there was actually pain or distress.
    48
    49   MS. STEEL:   It is made in respect of an individual pig.  But
    50        when you have 200 to 240 going through every hour, it is 
    51        inevitable that it is not going to not apply to any of 
    52        them.  It is inevitable it is going to apply to quite a 
    53        number of them.  (Pause)
    54
    55        The second point was that when Dr. Gregory inspected the
    56        stunning equipment, the electrodes were permanently live;
    57        and he agreed that that could increase the risk of a pig
    58        getting an electric shock.  He said -- when I asked whether
    59        it would cause pain and distress, he said it would cause
    60        distress at least; and he agreed with your question that

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