Day 132 - 07 Jun 95 - Page 16


     
     1        A.  Not in defiance of management.  In essence, you want
     2        safety to be a managed function the same as everything
     3        else.  It is not the employee who takes action, it is the
     4        manager who takes action if there are problems.  What you
     5        want is for the employee to recognise that factor and raise
     6        it and you provide a channel of communication for that to
     7        be done.  That is the essence of joint consultation.
     8
     9   Q.   Yes, but where management does not take action it is in the
    10        interests of employees' safety that employees have the
    11        independent right to take action themselves, they or their
    12        representatives?
    13        A.  That is not conferred by the safety representative
    14        regulation.
    15
    16   Q.   No, but I am asking you, as an expert on safety, whether
    17        that would benefit employees having that power to take
    18        independent action, if necessary, in defiance of management
    19        to enforce safety procedures?
    20        A.  No.  It is up to the manager to take a risk assessment
    21        of what the situation is or when something is brought up.
    22        Certainly it helps if you have a back up service such as
    23        the one that Jill Barnes operates in which instance any
    24        individual who is aggrieved could, perhaps, phone up
    25        directly and say:  "Can you get the safety adviser to look
    26        at this?"  I can see no problem with that and I would agree
    27        with you that that, as a long stop, could be quite useful.
    28
    29   Q.   There is no reason why employees should have to phone
    30        anybody else?
    31        A.  I am sorry, you have just said would it be useful if
    32        there was someone else to consult.  I have accepted the
    33        fact that there are instances where somebody should do.
    34        You are now telling me that it is not necessary.  I am
    35        sorry.
    36
    37   Q.   I am saying that if the employees were empowered themselves
    38        to take action or their own representative that they have
    39        chosen in that store -----
    40
    41   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Say what the action is they are empowered to
    42        take, because I am having difficulty with that.  What are
    43        you suggesting the employees should be able to do?  Give an
    44        example of something unsafe.
    45
    46   MR. MORRIS:  Any machine that an employee considered to be
    47        unsafe.  Either they would say:  "I am not touching that
    48        machine; I do not care what the management says", and they
    49        would have protection for that attitude, or they would have
    50        their own representative, a fellow crew member, who would 
    51        have the power to say:  "Yes, do not touch that machine; 
    52        no-one touch that machine.  It does not matter what 
    53        management say, nothing will happen.  If management tries
    54        to take action then we will stop the job".  That is an
    55        excellent attitude, is it not, for safety culture?
    56        A.  No, it does not work like that.  What you want is for a
    57        manager to make a proper risk assessment.  If you want, if
    58        you like, a long stop for that sort of situation, you will
    59        find that in every workplace there is a prominent notice
    60        giving an abstract of the Health & Safety at Work Act with

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