Day 018 - 26 Jul 94 - Page 42


     
     1        in the mouth to see whether it tried to chew my hand, or
              spit my hand out; so whether there is any voluntary
     2        activity associated with that interference.  Some people
              use tests like the corneal reflex, but I have little faith
     3        in it in this particular context.
 
     4   Q.   For pigs, you mean?
              A.  Following electrical stunning it is not necessarily a
     5        useful test for gauging conscious activity.  It is an easy
              test to do, but it is not terribly meaningful.  Also it is
     6        a brain stem reflex, not a test of consciousness.
 
     7   Q.   When we get to cows, I think you will tell us that the
              position in which the eyes are is a useful guide?
     8        A.  Yes.  It is a guide of brain stem activity.  I have --
              I think it is fair to say -- I do not wish to move about
     9        too much -- I think it is fair to say the criteria we are
              using for cattle that are described in this report are
    10        particularly demanding criteria.  We are testing brain
              stem activity, so we are actually looking for a very
    11        profound insult in the brain, which is below the interface
              between consciousness and unconsciousness.
    12
         Q.   What is reason for that, simply because it is a larger
    13        animal?
              A.  No, simply because they are criteria which are easy or
    14        practical to test for, and also they equate to laboratory
              studies where we have recommendations.
    15
         Q.   But not so in the case of a pig?
    16        A.  No.  The criteria that are used are nearer the
              interface between consciousness and unconsciousness.
    17
         Q.   If you look at page ten of your report, the last paragraph
    18        about pigs, under numbered paragraph 6, you tell us that
              there were, following stunning, no signs, no symptoms,
    19        which would indicate that the pigs were conscious.  Do you
              see that?
    20        A.  Yes.
 
    21   Q.   Then you tell us that 40 pigs were examined closely, that
              is by you, I take it?
    22        A.  Yes.
 
    23   Q.   For signs of rhythmic breathing following stunning and
              during bleeding.  No such symptoms or signs were seen by
    24        you.  Is that right?
              A.  That is correct.
    25
         Q.   Can we assume from that -- tell me if I am wrong -- that 
    26        despite some reservations you had about the actual 
              stunning process, there were in fact no pigs while you 
    27        were there which were not properly stunned?
              A.  That is correct.
    28
         Q.   Now I want to go briefly back to some of your
    29        recommendations, if I may call them that.  First of all it
              seems they did not actually get the tongs on either side
    30        of the head, but more like that?
              A.  That is correct.

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