Day 180 - 31 Oct 95 - Page 39
1
2 Q. That is effectively what you are saying on that page, is
3 it?
4 A. It is, yes.
5
6 MR. MORRIS: And, presumably, there will be housing benefit paid
7 also by the State on top of that?
8 A. Those are the benefits that were available then.
9 I have not calculated these figures for 1995, but I could
10 do. So, if I just say -----
11
12 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Would there be housing benefit paid on top of
13 it in 1984?
14 A. No, not in 1984. So, the -----
15
16 Q. That is why I wrote it down the way I did. What you are
17 saying, in effect, is that the threshold wage by the
18 Council of Europe calculation in this country would, in
19 real terms, be about the equivalent of the total State
20 benefits paid?
21 A. Well -----
22
23 Q. Or is it? I want to make sure I have understood.
24 A. Yes. You see, that is where the figures were
25 coinciding at that point. In 1995, however, the Council of
26 Europe figure is now well above the benefit levels, because
27 benefits have failed to keep pace with the movement in
28 wages over that 10 year period. So, in fact, the linkage
29 is broken. I am afraid that is part of history. I think
30 one would -----
31
32 Q. I am going to put down: "In 1995 the Council of Europe
33 figure would be" -- can I put "significantly greater than
34 the benefit figure"?
35 A. Absolutely.
36
37 MR. MORRIS: So, Family Credit has been something that has come
38 in since 1984?
39 A. Family Credit is now the benefit for the low paid; and
40 the Family Credit bill is effectively -- I mean, you
41 describe it however you will as a benefit, but also, as
42 commentators have said, it is a subsidy on low pay.
43 I would certainly -----
44
45 Q. Subsidy on the companies?
46 A. Effectively; and it is a massive subsidy to the tune of
47 approximately £1 billion per year to the public purse.
48 Expenditure on Family Credit has risen very significantly,
49 even in the last two years since the abolition of the Wages
50 Council minimum, because it has meant far more -----
51
52 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I set you off on this chain, because I wanted
53 to make sure I did not misinterpret what you put on that
54 page. But I do not think there is any need, Mr. Morris, to
55 go into it any more deeply.
56
57 MR. MORRIS: Just one final point on that. If Family Credit is
58 a subsidy for the companies for paying a low wage, what is
59 your view about housing benefits?
60
