Day 081 - 31 Jan 95 - Page 37


     
     1        A.  There is TCC and TVC, and CFUs, yes.
     2
     3   Q.   At each stage in the process it is going to multiply, is
     4        that accepted; that, for example, the standards that are
     5        set at the end for total concentration are not the same as
     6        the ones that are at the beginning of the process or in the
     7        actual live animals themselves.  Do you see what I am
     8        saying?
     9
    10   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Might I suggest that you start again because
    11        there are several questions in what you have put already,
    12        so take it stage by stage, one question at a time.
    13
    14   MR. MORRIS:  Does the concentration of the bacteria increase
    15        from the live animal at each stage until the actual point
    16        of cooking?
    17        A.  There is no reason why it should do.
    18
    19   Q.   No reason why it should?
    20        A.  No.
    21
    22   Q.   But is that the reality, that it does?
    23        A.  Not that I am aware.
    24
    25   Q.   If we just go back to that one you have got, I think the
    26        McKey guidelines?
    27        A.  Yes.
    28
    29   Q.   We note, for example, the E.coli figures, the limits there
    30        are higher than recommended in the guidelines that you gave
    31        us today.  For example, "unsatisfactory" at that stage was
    32        anything over 100 where with McDonald's it is 50 and also
    33        in your guidelines anything over 20 -- well, it would have
    34        to be under 20 to be "satisfactory".
    35
    36   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  These are the ready to eat figures, is it,
    37        that you are comparing those to?
    38
    39   MR. MORRIS:  Yes.
    40
    41   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  You have nothing on your sheet which gives us
    42        a comparable for the raw meat?
    43        A.  No, we are comparing chalk and cheese.
    44
    45   Q.   On the PHLS microbiology digest?
    46        A.  No, the Public Health Laboratory Service are dealing
    47        with ready to eat foods.  McKey is dealing with the raw
    48        food.
    49
    50   MR. MORRIS:  So what I am saying is that again if the food is 
    51        not properly cooked or cooked all the way through, and it 
    52        is higher than the cooked food guidelines, the actual 
    53        concentration of E.coli, then there could be a health risk?
    54        A.  Well, if it is present and it is not killed, it must
    55        still be present, yes.
    56
    57   Q.   Right.  So all I am saying is that under the McKey
    58        guidelines "unsatisfactory" levels of E.coli could exist if
    59        they were not cooked properly?
    60        A.  Yes, I suppose that is possible, yes.

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