Day 120 - 03 May 95 - Page 61
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2 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Abstract pleadings, yes, under divider 7.
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4 MR. MORRIS (To the witness): Are they marked with paragraphs?
5 A. Yes.
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7 Q. If you can go to paragraph 17 on page 6?
8 A. Yes.
9
10 Q. These are our allegations: "In or around early 1993,
11 Jeffrey Shaw was sacked over a dispute for the right to go
12 to the toilet during work-time."
13 A. Yes.
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15 Q. Do employees have to ask if they wish to go to the toilet
16 during work-time?
17 A. I would not have thought it was necessary to draw the
18 attention of the Manager responsible for their area that
19 they were going because they would have to be covered. You
20 could not just walk away from a toaster if you were
21 toasting buns or walk away from the dressing table if you
22 were responsible for dressing it with the condiments
23 without getting someone to replace you. The only person
24 who could do that is the Manager responsible for that area.
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26 Q. So you would have to ask for authorisation?
27 A. Well, it is not so much asking for authorisation. If a
28 person has to go to the toilet, they have to go to the
29 toilet, but it is a case of getting someone to replace
30 them.
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32 Q. Right. So they have to get authorisation?
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34 MR. JUSTICE BELL: You see, you use the word "authorisation"
35 which makes it look as if you might have to put a bit of
36 paper in and get an official stamp on it; whereas I can
37 imagine what someone might say to his Manager: "I would
38 like to pop out for a minute". The Manager will either
39 say: "Okay" or "Can you hang on just a bit longer?" and
40 then when he can be replaced off he goes, which I would
41 have thought most people would think is an inoffensive way
42 of treating an employee.
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44 MR. MORRIS: So would "permission" be a better word? You have
45 to get permission?
46 A. All right. If you want to use that, but I do not even
47 think it is as strong as that. If you want to go to the
48 toilet, you have to go to the toilet. It is very difficult
49 for some people to refrain from not going to the toilet as
50 soon as they want to go. But you, obviously, have to be
51 relieved, I mean, by another person -- I apologise, my
52 Lord.
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54 Q. The Manager is the only person that could -----
55 A. Well, you are not talking about the Restaurant Manager
56 or even the Shift Running Manager.
57
58 Q. Whoever is the head -----
59 A. Whoever is the head person in charge of that little
60 unit will say: "Right, can you hang on a minute? Charlie,
