Day 251 - 17 May 96 - Page 31
1 have contacted the church, knowing that the church is the
2 only source of support. I mean it is beginning to change a
3 little bit now, with Brazil becoming more democratic, but
4 certainly sort of 1970's and up to 1985, that was the only
5 institution they could go to. I do not mean it in any
6 technical form of registered with the authorities.
7
8 Q. You mean it is just a dispute of which this body has a
9 record?
10 A. It has a record and they will not go down -- they are
11 an extremely careful organisation. They will not be
12 putting making a record of it unless they have considerable
13 evidence, and they will have details on all these disputes
14 in their now computerised system.
15
16 Q. Yes. There was one other question which I would like an
17 answer to. I am sorry, there is so much paper, do you have
18 your type written statement somewhere to hand there?
19 A. Yes.
20
21 Q. I would like you to look at the big paragraph which starts
22 in about the middle of the page with the words
23 "Mr. Morganti"; have you got that?
24 A. Yes, I have got that.
25
26 Q. On page 2: "Mr. Morganti discusses in his statement..." so
27 on and so forth. Then you recite what he said, to the
28 effect that the land was not occupied by small farmers
29 displaced by cattle ranching. You say:
30
31 "This statement is wrong. Mato Grosso do Sul was not
32 virgin land when cattle-rearers arrived; it has been
33 occupied for centuries by Guariani and Kadiweu Indians. For
34 the last 30 years there has been serious conflict."
35
36 What I am asking is, you say "when the cattle-rearers
37 arrived", do you propose that is a single historical event?
38 A. No. No, that has been a process of occupation of the
39 eviction of the Indians. I mean, I am questioning the
40 validity of his statement that it is virgin land. It is
41 not uncommon in Brazil for cattle-rearers to make this kind
42 of statement, that it was virgin land, but that is because
43 they tend not to regard Indians somehow as legitimate
44 occupiers of the land.
45
46 Q. I cannot speak for Mr. Morganti, but I can tell you he is
47 not a cattle-rearer?
48 A. I do not know. I just know that he runs a cattle
49 ranch. He would be sharing then the kind of assumption
50 that is, at times, made by cattle-rearers.
51
52 Q. What I was actually wondering was, since it was not, as it
53 might be thought to suggest, a single historical event,
54 perhaps I can ask you this: When did you first go to Mato
55 Grosso do Sul?
56 A. Let me think. I have been there since the early
57 1970's, I cannot remember the exact date.
58
59 Q. Since the early 1970's?
60 A. Yes, since the early 1970's.
