Day 251 - 17 May 96 - Page 32
1
2 Q. Did you travel extensively in Mato Grosso do Sul during the
3 1970's?
4 A. No. I have not travelled as extensively in Mato Grosso
5 do Sul as I have in areas further north, but I have been
6 there several times.
7
8 Q. Your 1985 book about the Amazon, was that based on research
9 you had done between 1970 and 1979?
10 A. Yes. It was published in 1985 and I worked on it
11 actually for a 10 year period, more than a 10 year period.
12
13 Q. But the focus of your attention all that time doing
14 research for the book, would have been the Amazon, would it
15 not?
16 A. The focus of the book was the Amazon, but I did have --
17 to actually understand what is going on in the Amazon, you
18 actually have to understand what is going on in the rest of
19 Brazil. Because migrants are coming up, because the cattle
20 companies are all coming down come from the south, you have
21 to actually understand the dynamics of the migrations
22 within Brazil.
23
24 Q. I follow that. What I was wondering was whether you could
25 tell us, from your own direct experience and observation in
26 Mato Grosso do Sul during the 1970's, to what extent that
27 was already ranch land at that time?
28 A. Some of it was already, Mato Grosso do Sul is an older
29 period of occupation than these areas, in the more general
30 terms of the large Amazon basin. The process of occupation
31 goes back, the beginning of it goes back to the early years
32 of this century.
33
34 Q. It has proceeded in perhaps not --
35 A. And there has been resistance. It is one of the areas
36 with most resistance by the Indians, probably because they
37 have actually had a longer period of contact so they are
38 actually better equipped. It is probably the area of
39 Brazil where there has actually been most conflicts between
40 the cattle companies and the Indians, but they are older
41 conflicts and they are still going on today. We have still
42 got problems with the Indians still demanding land back
43 that has been occupied by cattle ranchers.
44
45 Q. I hesitate to, I am not interrupting you I hope. That last
46 bit of evidence about still going on today, it is not your
47 fault, but it may be may it not that you are reciting what
48 others have told you, or what you have been told by the
49 commission?
50 A. Before I made this statement, I read carefully. There
51 is an organisation called Sade which gives very detailed
52 accounts of what is going on in Mato Grosso do Sul. I
53 reread, they have 20 documents about land in conflict with
54 the Indians in that area.
55
56 Q. Be assured, I have no intention to trivialise the state of
57 your knowledge. I am interested in its source, which you
58 say is reading?
59 A. I have visited a group of Guarani Indians in Mato
60 Grosso do Sul, who were involved in conflict.
