Day 090 - 16 Feb 95 - Page 25


     
     1   Q.   Are you suggesting that -----
     2
     3   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  May I just try to get the picture:  What
     4        would the actual numbers have to be, by what sort of
     5        numbers would they have to be reduced?
     6        A.  You are reducing, you are really reducing it by one
     7        bird per square metre.  If I could just elaborate a little
     8        bit more?  This stocking density, I know, is a very -- it
     9        creates a lot of discussion.  If we, say, reduced our
    10        stocking density from 18 birds to 17 birds per square
    11        metre, that would comply with the Regulations, and what the
    12        question we are being asked, really, is would that really
    13        make a great deal of difference to the bird's ability to
    14        move around?
    15
    16        If we are looking at different climates, the stocking
    17        density will progressively come down to, perhaps, a country
    18        like Brazil which may only have eight birds per square
    19        metre.  So, if you look across the world there is a
    20        tremendous difference in requirements according to the
    21        climate and according to the types of housing.  I find it
    22        one of the most difficult things to actually establish a
    23        level and say this is right and that is wrong.  It is a
    24        question that constantly I have to look at.
    25
    26   MS. STEEL:   But this is a UK document -- we are not talking
    27        about tropical climates -- and this document makes a
    28        recommendation.  Are you suggesting that mortality rates
    29        would increase if you gave the birds more space?
    30        A.  The mortality rate, what we have found is that it does
    31        not change.
    32
    33   Q.   How would behaviour change if you increased the room that
    34        the chickens had?
    35        A.  Well, what I am saying is that I do not believe the
    36        difference between 16 or 17 birds per square metre makes a
    37        great deal of difference to behaviour.  That is what we
    38        have found by our own observations.
    39
    40   Q.   They would have more room for movement as you have agreed,
    41        otherwise you say it would not affect their behaviour?
    42        A.  That is correct.
    43
    44   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  You say it does not make a great deal of
    45        difference to behaviour, does it make any difference at
    46        all?
    47        A.  No, that we have measured or observed, and there is a
    48        great lack of scientific evidence to prove what is right
    49        and what wrong.  It is all a question of degrees.
    50 
    51   MS. STEEL:   We have been through mortality and we have been 
    52        through behaviour and they do not appear to be reasons why 
    53        the stocking level should not be reduced, so that only
    54        leaves economics?
    55        A.  Yes.
    56
    57   Q.   So that is the real reason why the stocking density is not
    58        reduced?
    59        A.  Economics are a very important factor, of course.
    60

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