Day 010 - 11 Jul 94 - Page 64


     
     1        enhanced if they put this expenditure into cleaning up the
              area around their restaurant.  Their public image is
     2        enhanced in that way.  Does that answer your question?
 
     3   Q.   Do you think it is genuine or not?
              A.  I think that it is a decision-making process that the
     4        corporation makes that has a number of considerations to
              it, and not simply that they want to be good corporate
     5        citizens.  There are factors they need to weigh into the
              decision, like how much it costs to pay these people to
     6        pick up the trash, versus how much it costs to advertise a
              way or otherwise address the problem.
     7
         MR. RAMPTON:  May I go on?
     8
         MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Sorry, yes.
     9
         MR. RAMPTON:  I want to turn now to the fourth page of this
    10        written document, please, Mr. Lipsett:  I want to have a
              look at what you tell us about HCFCs.  It is the third
    11        paragraph or second complete one paragraph beginning:
              "The other alternative gas, hydro chloro-fluorocarbon
    12        (HCFC), was identified as a CFC gas by EPA until
              manufacturers convinced EPA to remove it from the list of
    13        ozone depleting CFC gasses in 1987." Have you got that?
              A.  Yes.
    14
         Q.   Then it goes on: "Further research indicated that the HCFC
    15        gas is more damaging to the ozone layer than industry
              scientists have claimed".  Mr. Morris read out to you an
    16        article from an American newspaper, I think the Washington
              Post, perhaps from December 1989, was it not?
    17        A.  Yes.
 
    18   Q.   I think it was around then, in which it was said:  "Well,
              HCFC-22 is no different from what we used to call CFC-22",
    19        yes?
              A.  Yes.
    20
         Q.   Can you tell us, please, what is the difference between
    21        CFC-12 and HCFC-22; first of all, in its chemical
              composition?
    22        A.  Well, in general the literature I have reviewed
              describes the difference in terms of the presence of a
    23        hydrogen atom in the HCFC-22, that when we refer to the
              difference between different types of CFCs, CFC-11,
    24        CFC-12, HCFC-22, we are actually referring to, as
              I understand it, the position or number of chlorine atoms
    25        in the molecule.  Does that answer your question?
  
    26   Q.   I believe that is right but, more important than that, 
              Mr. Lipsett, will you please tell us, if you know, the 
    27        difference in the way in which those two substances,
              different gases, CFC-12 or 11 and HCFC-22, react in the
    28        atmosphere?
              A.  Well, the central point that is made by the packagers
    29        in their 1987 decision was that this material was less
              damaging, substantially less damaging, to the ozone layer.
    30        The basis of that knowledge is somewhat -- it is in a
              certain rarefied form, but it has to do with the structure

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