Day 251 - 17 May 96 - Page 32


     
     1
     2   Q.   Did you travel extensively in Mato Grosso do Sul during the
     3        1970's?
     4        A.  No.  I have not travelled as extensively in Mato Grosso
     5        do Sul as I have in areas further north, but I have been
     6        there several times.
     7
     8   Q.   Your 1985 book about the Amazon, was that based on research
     9        you had done between 1970 and 1979?
    10        A.  Yes.  It was published in 1985 and I worked on it
    11        actually for a 10 year period, more than a 10 year period.
    12
    13   Q.   But the focus of your attention all that time doing
    14        research for the book, would have been the Amazon, would it
    15        not?
    16        A.  The focus of the book was the Amazon, but I did have --
    17        to actually understand what is going on in the Amazon, you
    18        actually have to understand what is going on in the rest of
    19        Brazil.  Because migrants are coming up, because the cattle
    20        companies are all coming down come from the south, you have
    21        to actually understand the dynamics of the migrations
    22        within Brazil.
    23
    24   Q.   I follow that.  What I was wondering was whether you could
    25        tell us, from your own direct experience and observation in
    26        Mato Grosso do Sul during the 1970's, to what extent that
    27        was already ranch land at that time?
    28        A.  Some of it was already, Mato Grosso do Sul is an older
    29        period of occupation than these areas, in the more general
    30        terms of the large Amazon basin.  The process of occupation
    31        goes back, the beginning of it goes back to the early years
    32        of this century.
    33
    34   Q.   It has proceeded in perhaps not --
    35        A.  And there has been resistance.  It is one of the areas
    36        with most resistance by the Indians, probably because they
    37        have actually had a longer period of contact so they are
    38        actually better equipped.  It is probably the area of
    39        Brazil where there has actually been most conflicts between
    40        the cattle companies and the Indians, but they are older
    41        conflicts and they are still going on today.  We have still
    42        got problems with the Indians still demanding land back
    43        that has been occupied by cattle ranchers.
    44
    45   Q.   I hesitate to, I am not interrupting you I hope.  That last
    46        bit of evidence about still going on today, it is not your
    47        fault, but it may be may it not that you are reciting what
    48        others have told you, or what you have been told by the
    49        commission?
    50        A.  Before I made this statement, I read carefully.  There 
    51        is an organisation called Sade which gives very detailed 
    52        accounts of what is going on in Mato Grosso do Sul.  I 
    53        reread, they have 20 documents about land in conflict with
    54        the Indians in that area.
    55
    56   Q.   Be assured, I have no intention to trivialise the state of
    57        your knowledge.  I am interested in its source, which you
    58        say is reading?
    59        A.  I have visited a group of Guarani Indians in Mato
    60        Grosso do Sul, who were involved in conflict.

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