Day 310 - 04 Dec 96 - Page 20


     
     1   MR. JUSTICE BELL:   Yes.  The comment at the top of page 30
     2        about it would not have been conceivable that they could
     3        have recruited and kept sufficient numbers of staff if they
     4        had not been paying wages which, overall, their staff
     5        perceived to be fair.  I can, for whatever it is worth, at
     6        the end of the day, take into account my understanding of
     7        the general employment or unemployment situation over the
     8        years in question, can I not?
     9
    10   MR. RAMPTON:   I would have thought inevitably.  Certainly, if
    11        your Lordship were a jury, it would be quite impossible,
    12        idiotic, to tell the jury, "Put out of your minds, members
    13        of the jury, everything you know about employment
    14        conditions over the years", sorry, "unemployment numbers
    15        over the years."  All one would say to the jury, "Be
    16        cautious about it because it is likely that your
    17        information or your impression was gleaned partly from
    18        anecdotal experience, no doubt, but also partly from
    19        television and newspapers, which are not the most reliable
    20        sources of information on any view of the world", and also,
    21        it has to be said, governments from time to time.
    22
    23   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Yes.
    24
    25   MR. RAMPTON:  I deliberately underlined the words which follow,
    26         "perceived to be fair", for that and similar reasons.
    27        There is no doubt that when there is a glut of available
    28        labour employers can take advantage of that market, but you
    29        will not get people along to work for you if you are at the
    30        bottom of the available jobs in that sector of work.
    31
    32   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  That is partly why I raised it.  You might
    33        say that if there were enough jobs for everyone.  Even if
    34        you paid low for your industry, if there are many more
    35        people clamouring for work than there are posts -----
    36
    37   MR. RAMPTON:   Then everybody will go down.
    38
    39   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  They may do.  That really leads to another
    40        question:  To what extent is it a defence to low pay to
    41        say, well, other people in the High Street are not paying
    42        any more?
    43
    44   MR. RAMPTON:   If bad pay is an absolute, then everybody is paid
    45        badly.
    46
    47   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I do not know.  Some are paid less badly than
    48        others.
    49
    50   MR. RAMPTON:   That is the point I am making here.  It may be 
    51        that at certain times in the history of this country in the 
    52        last 25 years there have been too many unemployed people so 
    53        that the employers have had too great a pool of labour to
    54        choose from, so they have been able to keep the wages lower
    55        than they otherwise would have been able to.  But in that
    56        market, which will go up and down, the wages have to be
    57        competitive.
    58
    59   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Let that be so, but that does not stop them
    60        being low or bad, does it?

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