Day 154 - 13 Jul 95 - Page 33
1 put it quite deliberately to previous witnesses.
2
3 MS. STEEL: It may be one, it may be the other, it may be a
4 combination of both. The important point is that it is
5 high and that that does provide some benefits for
6 McDonald's which I have given examples of.
7
8 MR. RAMPTON: I sometimes despair. My Lord, there is quite a
9 lot of law about this. At some stage -- not now --
10 I will wish to make a submission to your Lordship, based on
11 authority, that what Ms. Steel has just said is, in fact,
12 not permissible.
13
14 MS. STEEL: Let Mr. Rampton find the authorities. I think that
15 is ridiculous.
16
17 MR. JUSTICE BELL: By all means do that. But at the end of the
18 day I have to decide whether the suggestions which have
19 been put make any sense, in any event, on the evidence
20 I have heard and my general knowledge of the ways of the
21 world and, generally, how much use people are when they
22 first start.
23
24 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, I understand that. It is slightly more
25 important than just -- of course I understand all that, and
26 in many ways I am entirely content to leave it to
27 your Lordship. But the Court of Appeal has said that a
28 defendant is not allowed to put in a wishy-washy -- it is
29 called a Lucas-Box plea, because it comes from case of
30 Lucas-Box Newspapers in the Court of Appeal 1986 -- a
31 wishy-washy defence of that kind, leaving the door open to
32 choose what line he or she will take when the evidence has
33 finished.
34
35 The reason for that is clear: because they have to put a
36 case to the Plaintiffs' witnesses so that the Plaintiffs'
37 witnesses know what the allegation is they are dealing
38 with. If the allegation be that McDonald's are
39 deliberately securing or engineering a high turnover for
40 basic commercial reasons, then that is the case to which
41 they must adhere.
42
43 MS. STEEL: Can I just say, it strikes me that this is pretty
44 much on a parallel with the pleading of the Plaintiffs
45 which says something like: "Either we deliberately put
46 false information or we were reckless about it." There is
47 an either/or there. They have not been forced to specify
48 are they saying we were deliberate or were we reckless. As
49 far as I can see, we do not have to specify.
50
51 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I can remember the effect of what Mr. Morris
52 has put to previous witnesses; and to some at least it was
53 quite clear that it was conscious policy of McDonald's.
54 But I am going to put it to you in various ways, and I will
55 hear argument, if need be, later.
56
57 (To the witness) What is suggested as one of the
58 suggestions is that McDonald's consciously seek to achieve
59 a situation whereby employees leave sooner rather than
60 later, because that suits them. What do you say about
