Day 097 - 06 Mar 95 - Page 72


     
     1
     2        By the time you cross-examine this may not be my view, but
     3        I would have thought basic procedures like this there could
     4        be a fair amount of leading on as to what the temperatures
     5        are and where it goes next, and what the temperatures are
     6        when it gets to those parts of the production line.  Is it
     7        really in issue that it goes through these chilling stages
     8        in the MMP plant?
     9
    10   MR. MORRIS:  Well, there are obviously issues about temperatures
    11        and things.
    12
    13   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I appreciate there may be that, but you have
    14        to ask yourself: Am I actually going to be standing up at
    15        the end of the day and putting to the witness: "It does not
    16        go into a holding chiller after it has been in the deboned
    17        plant".
    18
    19   MR. MORRIS:  No, I understand that.
    20
    21   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Do you see what I mean, or they do not get it
    22        down ----
    23
    24   MR. MORRIS:  And leave it lying around.
    25
    26   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  --- as normal practice to 4 to 7 before it
    27        goes in.  There if the fact is you are not going to
    28        challenge that, positively challenge it, then there is
    29        probably no harm in asking leading questions about it.
    30
    31   MR. MORRIS:  I think Helen and I were particularly concerned
    32        about the way Mr. Rampton all the MAFF regulations, code of
    33        practice, and said "Do you conform to that?" Obviously any
    34        witness that is put the official regulations and say, "do
    35        you conform to that?" is going to say "yes".  That was
    36        virtually the entire animal welfare case, if you like, for
    37        this witness.  It was done in that way.  It was a quick of
    38        doing.  I understand it was a quick way.
    39
    40   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I would be very surprised if someone came
    41        right out and said:  "No, of course we do not conform".
    42        Mr. Rampton has heard what you have said.  You have said
    43        it.
    44
    45   MR. RAMPTON:  My Lord, I make no apology for this reason that
    46        I hope when it comes to something which I do recognise as
    47        being sensitive I do not lead.  I did not lead on
    48        temperature, for example, which the meat leaves the plant.
    49        I asked him what it was.  What the Defendants do not and
    50        cannot be expected to understand is that very often in a 
    51        case, particularly one of this length, counsel will say to 
    52        each other: "Well, go on, lead let us get through until you 
    53        come a bit where I say you must not".  Normally that is
    54        quite -----
    55
    56   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I think you have got to carry on using your
    57        discretion about what you think is actually in issue in the
    58        light of what Mr. Morris said.  Perhaps you ought to err on
    59        the side of caution.
    60

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