Day 294 - 05 Nov 96 - Page 10


     
     1   MR. MORRIS:   Yes.
     2
     3   MR. JUSTICE BELL:   Therefore, wherever there is a system which
     4        is criticised here, save where there is something in the
     5        criticism which positively points away from McDonald's,
     6        maybe pet food is that, since I have got the McDonald's
     7        trademark all the way across the top of the leaflet,
     8        whoever made the leaflet not only bothered to put in the
     9        distinctive McDonald's arches but put a little 'TM' in the
    10        bottom corner.  And since it says 'What's Wrong with
    11        McDonald's', and, you know, I can see Ronald and the man
    12        with the 'M' on his leaflet, every time you say this has
    13        nothing to do with McDonald's, I have a bit of a problem.
    14        There we are.
    15
    16   MS. STEEL:   I don't think we have said it has nothing to do
    17        with McDonald's.  It is just that it is not specific.
    18
    19   MR. JUSTICE BELL:   You carry on anyway.
    20
    21   MR. MORRIS:   This is an important part of the whole meaning for
    22        all the issues.  I think that there is -- so there is no
    23        misunderstanding, what we are saying is if we say
    24        capitalism is, you know, starving people to death and
    25        McDonald's is part of capitalism, it does not mean to say
    26        necessarily that McDonald's is starving people to death, it
    27        just means that we have to show that capitalism is doing
    28        that and that McDonald's is part of that system.
    29
    30   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I know, but I am not on what you have to show
    31        to justify at the moment.  I am on the meaning.  You have
    32        said precisely what I was trying to say a few sentences
    33        ago.  If you say something is causing starvation and then
    34        you go on to say McDonald's is part of that something, that
    35        seems to me to be tantamount to saying McDonald's is
    36        causing that something.  It may be that they are doing it
    37        in harness with a lot of other people, it may be defamatory
    38        of a lot of other people apart from McDonald's, but it is
    39        certainly pointing at McDonald's.  When you say "but look
    40        at the overall tenor and the back page", I understand that
    41        point with regard to malice, but I do not understand it to
    42        point away from McDonald's.  (Pause)
    43
    44   MR. MORRIS:   Yes, but the point I am making on justification is
    45        that we only have to show how they are part of a system.
    46
    47   MR. JUSTICE BELL:   Yes, I know.  I was not talking about
    48        justification at all.
    49
    50   MR. MORRIS:   We don't have to show that they are even aware of
    51        what is happening.
    52
    53   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Yes, but you must go through the exercise of
    54        seeing what the meaning is, first, seeing whether it is
    55        defamatory, before you ever come to justification.  When I
    56        ask you what the meaning is and whether it is defamatory, I
    57        am not even looking to see whether it might be justified.
    58
    59        One of the things I said in my ruling on the meaning of the
    60        nutrition part was that it was totally irrelevant to see

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