Day 181 - 01 Nov 95 - Page 18


     
     1        paragraph this reference, because it is always the devil in
     2        the detail:  you have the right, but how do you exercise
     3        it?  It certainly was my experience; and that is why I am
     4        here in the witness box as an expert witness in these
     5        areas.  It certainly was my experience firsthand in these
     6        workplaces that exercising such rights was always the
     7        problem because, willy-nilly, whether justified or not,
     8        there would always be in the mind of employees the question
     9        of their own job security.  That is why I associate these
    10        two issues.  Job security is a problem.
    11
    12   Q.   But hang on a moment, if somebody sought to exercise his
    13        rights, whether in person or to somebody like yourself,
    14        because he felt he had been victimised at work because of
    15        trade union activities and was then sacked, lost his job,
    16        he would in those circumstances also have an immediate
    17        right of access to an industrial tribunal, would he not?
    18        A.  It depends if he was a trade union member or not or she
    19        were a trade union member.
    20
    21   Q.   No, no.  Somebody who is dismissed on account of trade
    22        union activity also qualifies for immediate relief to an
    23        industrial tribunal, does not he or she?
    24        A.  It depends if he or she is a member of a trade union
    25        and again I can only ---
    26
    27   Q.   In that case Mr. Pearson -----
    28        A. -- I can only -----
    29
    30   MS. STEEL:   I think Mr. Rampton should let the witness finish
    31        his answer.
    32
    33   THE WITNESS:  I am trying to complete my answer in this manner:
    34        I am here as an expert witness.  In regard to that kind of
    35        question, I can only speak, you know, on the basis of my
    36        experience with the TGWU.  Now, whatever the commitment and
    37        personal feelings of an employee about their reason for
    38        dismissal, they may claim it was because of their trade
    39        union activities.  A TGWU official entitled to make interim
    40        relief applications, such as I was in the mid 80s, or the
    41        late 80s, can only act on the basis of a bona fide member,
    42        actually enlisted in the trade union.
    43
    44        So, this does restrict the ability of trade unions to
    45        represent individuals who may well be aggrieved, but the
    46        question I would be asked by -- would have been asked by
    47        the union's legal department:  When did they join up?
    48        Prove they are a member.  That is an important test.  It is
    49        one which my answer is really based on, the question of
    50        actual union membership. 
    51 
    52   MR. RAMPTON:  The answer to my question, I think, is probably 
    53        "yes", is it not?  The right of law exists, whether or not
    54        they are a member of a trade union, if they had been
    55        victimised or dismissed on the grounds of trade union
    56        activity.  That is correct, is it not?
    57        A.  Yes.
    58
    59   Q.   Yes, thank you.  What you are telling us, I think, is
    60        because of the way that people, human nature, operates, it

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