Day 107 - 24 Mar 95 - Page 56


     
     1        food-borne in the first case?
     2        A.  You see, four out of 600 is one in 150.  It would not
     3        surprise me, bear in mind, please, I said that salmonella
     4        in live cattle was probably less than 1 per cent, there is
     5        probably not on that basis a lot difference between
     6        salmonella and E.coli.
     7
     8   Q.   Put it another way, if you sample X number of pieces of
     9        chicken you are going to find salmonella a lot more often
    10        than if you sample the same number (discounting all
    11        questions of chance which of course we have to understand),
    12        if you sample the same number of pieces of beef for E.coli
    13        you are going to find the salmonella in the chicken a lot
    14        more often, are you not?  It is going to be routine?
    15        A.  Hang on, E.coli 0157 seems to be source related
    16        cattle-wise, so obviously you can sample an awful lot of
    17        chicken and you would not find it at all.
    18
    19   Q.   No, I said salmonella in chicken and E.coli in beef, you
    20        would expect to find salmonella on a routine basis; you
    21        would not expect to find E.coli in beef, would you?
    22        A.  I am trying to answer your question accurately honestly
    23        and I am slightly confused by the question.
    24
    25   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  What I understand is there was a survey in
    26        the States which you said found that four out of ----
    27        A.  600.
    28
    29   Q.   --- 600 cattle were infected.  I want to check, do
    30        I understand you to say that E.coli 0157: H was found in
    31        the gut contents of four out of the 600 cattle?
    32        A.  That seems to be the case.
    33
    34   Q.   That is what you meant by "infected"?
    35        A.  Yes.
    36
    37   MR. RAMPTON:  Take the flock of chickens then, using the same
    38        par, if you like, a flock of chickens that has not been
    39        selected but bred so as to eliminate salmonella from the
    40        flock, that has not been treated with antibiotics and so
    41        on, in what number of the same number of chickens, 400,
    42        would you expect to find salmonella in the gut?
    43
    44   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  600.
    45
    46   MR. RAMPTON:  Sorry, 600.
    47        A.  If we take ----
    48
    49   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Broilers when you mean chickens.
    50        A.  It is again very low in the lie of chickens, less than 
    51        1 per cent. 
    52 
    53   MR. RAMPTON:  Less than 1 per cent in the gut of chickens?
    54        A.  In live chickens, yes, salmonella.
    55
    56   Q.   So where does the salmonella that is so common on chicken
    57        products come from?
    58        A.  It is a matter of cross-contamination.  Let us make the
    59        distinction between the live chicken and then the finished
    60        chicken meat.

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