Day 078 - 26 Jan 95 - Page 62


     
     1        well.  Secondly, the whole of the beef industry is really
     2        based on rearing calves taken away from the dairy industry.
     3
     4   Q.   So you would accept that in order to get McDonald's beef
     5        those cows are going to suffer the affects of having their
     6        calves taken away?
     7        A.  I would accept that the whole meat industry, not just
     8        McDonald's, is involved in your recent statement.  I would
     9        also point out to you that after 12, 24 hours the cow has
    10        forgotten the calf and the calf has forgotten the cow and
    11        the cow is looking for the bull again.
    12
    13   Q.   So do you think that the suffering of cows does not matter
    14        if it only lasts for 12 hours or whatever you consider this
    15        period to be?
    16        A.  I cannot tell you what suffering is in a cow.  All
    17        I can tell you is that a cow moos for its calf.
    18
    19   Q.   But are you saying ----
    20        A.  That is one of the problems.  We try to convey our
    21        reasoning and thinking into an animal and my experience
    22        tells me that that is not correct.
    23
    24   Q.   Are you saying that it does not matter?
    25        A.  No, I am not saying it does not matter.  Good husbandry
    26        and good farming, you have to look after all your animals.
    27
    28   Q.   Yes, but it is impossible to do it without suffering?
    29        A.  It is impossible to do it without suffering -- well,
    30        I suppose if a calf -----
    31
    32   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Put it in proportion for him.  It is
    33        impossible for any animal, including the human one, to get
    34        through its life without some suffering.  What we are
    35        looking at is the degree of it.  If you challenge what
    36        Mr. Walker said about the day, put it to him.  In fact,
    37        Dr. Gregory dealt with this to some extent and you might
    38        have been content with his answers, but you obviously were
    39        not so you have asked Mr. Walker questions about it.  You
    40        did not have to ask Mr. Walker questions.  You could have
    41        relied upon Mr. Gregory's evidence in this respect.  At the
    42        end of the day, you are going to ask me to put such degree
    43        of suffering as there may be into the equation.  What
    44        I want to know in relation to this is whether you challenge
    45        what has been the gist of Mr. Walker's evidence that it is
    46        for a relatively short period.
    47
    48   MS. STEEL:  Actually I have not got my notes on this because
    49        I was not intending to go down this particular line at this
    50        time.  With respect, I would disagree with the point that 
    51        you have said about it is impossible to get through life 
    52        without suffering.  I do not think that is the be all and 
    53        end all of the issue.  If the suffering is caused by a
    54        deliberate action, then that is different to something that
    55        happens accidentally.
    56
    57   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  You may well be right.  What I have to try to
    58        get my round is the extent of it, then I can look at what
    59        is to be gained, if anything, from it and you can address
    60        me on whether it can be morally justified in some way.

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