Day 288 - 28 Oct 96 - Page 11


     
     1
     2   MR JUSTICE BELL:  No.  I will hear what Mr. Rampton has to say,
     3        but I am not too impressed at the moment with either the
     4        word 'utterly' or the word 'grossly', because it seems to
     5        me that they add nothing.  I mean, if you are indifferent,
     6        you are indifferent.  It seems to me if you are inhumane,
     7        though perhaps absolutely less clearly, you are inhumane.
     8
     9        But what about inhumane?  The only reference is 'supposedly
    10        inhumane', which is obviously a jibe, but I think what may
    11        be said is, put murder on one side, because we heard what
    12        Mr. Rampton said about that before and it may amount to
    13        this, that if you feel strongly about these things -- and
    14        people do -- you could describe killing animals to feed
    15        people as murder.  And there we are.  So, no complaint
    16        about that.  What about torture?
    17
    18   MS. STEEL:   Well, I was going to come on to this.
    19
    20   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Does that not impute an element of cruelty or
    21        inhumanity?
    22
    23   MS. STEEL:   I was going to come on to this.  We believe that
    24        the position as stated on day one and day 30 by Mr. Rampton
    25        is correct, i.e. that torture and murder are expressions of
    26        opinion and that they are expressions of opinion based on
    27        the facts laid out in our fact sheet.
    28
    29   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I have looked at all these things.  I did not
    30        understand him to say that torture was a matter of
    31        opinion.
    32
    33   MS. STEEL:   I will come back to that later.
    34
    35   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  In any event, whether he did or not, I have
    36        never understood it to be his case that that was it, and
    37        I have to decide what the leaflet means at this stage.
    38
    39   MS. STEEL:   I mean, I am going to be jumping ahead if I carry
    40        on with this.
    41
    42   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  As long as you are going to deal with it, do
    43        not let me take you out of order.  But I do need some help
    44        on it, so come to it in due course.  Yes.
    45
    46   MS. STEEL:   OK.  That "McDonald's are responsible for the
    47        deaths of countless animals by this supposedly humane
    48        method", we say is true, and that it follows as night
    49        follows day that McDonald's are responsible.  If you hire
    50        contract killers to kill somebody you are responsible in 
    51        law, and so McDonald's are hiring other people to carry out 
    52        the rearing and slaughter of animals and they are therefore 
    53        responsible for the torture and murder of the animals.
    54
    55   MR. JUSTICE BELL:   Why do you not just get on with your
    56        submissions and at lunchtime Mr. Morris can tell you all
    57        the things you missed out, and you can tell me about them
    58        yourself?
    59
    60   MR. MORRIS:   I was making the point that the same applies to

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