Day 286 - 24 Oct 96 - Page 29


     
     1        are some maps by Mr. Cotter, who is one of the defendants'
     2        Civil Evidence Act witnesses, again to the same effect but
     3        from an even earlier date.
     4
     5        Those are the only maps that I know of.  They are all to
     6        the same effect.  When I say Cotter, I mean C-o-t-t-e-r,
     7        who also produced maps of Brazil.
     8
     9   MR. JUSTICE BELL:   Well, make your points on them, and what it
    10        occurs to me might be a good idea, as I write my judgment,
    11        if there is any document or map I cannot find, having heard
    12        what you and Miss Steel have to say, knowing that you have
    13        got an opportunity at any stage to say "by the way, when we
    14        referred to such and such a document or such and such a map
    15        three or four weeks ago, it can be found at such and such a
    16        place".  If as I write my judgment I really cannot find
    17        something which is important, Mr. Glenn will have to write
    18        to all the parties and say "can you please just identify it
    19        for me".
    20
    21   MR. RAMPTON:   What I am going to do, where I cannot find what
    22        the references are, as with these maps, I simply have them
    23        in my giant rainforest file, is as I go through them I am
    24        going to give copies to your Lordship.
    25
    26   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  That might help as well.  I would much rather
    27        you kept on with it now and made your points on it and I am
    28        sure I will track down everything.
    29
    30   MR. MORRIS:   Right.  In case there is any dispute about
    31        McDonald's adopting the position of the advice of
    32        Mr. Cesca's briefcase, then that map, as given to him, was
    33        turned into an official map by McDonald's.  And I don't
    34        know if you remember, the same map and it had at the bottom
    35        McDonald's 18472, and so they were adopting it in identical
    36        terms with the rain or wet forest zones defined.
    37
    38   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Well, I have that.  That is in the -----
    39
    40   MR. MORRIS:   Is that the one you have?  That is like that.
    41
    42   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Yes.  I think a point which is made against
    43        you there is wet forest is not rainforest and there was
    44        some evidence of which is rainforest and which was not.
    45        You say, no, wet forest is to be treated as rainforest for
    46        the purposes of the leaflet, that is what it means.  I am
    47        not inviting you to go through it again, but that is an
    48        issue between you.
    49
    50   MR. MORRIS:   Right.  Well, I mean, under McDonald's definition 
    51        it seems to be that only inaccessible mountainous and 
    52        pre-montain cloud forests where nobody would put probably 
    53        cattle would be relevant, in which case where is the
    54        rainforest they have admitted, the ex-rainforest land they
    55        have admitted they have been using.  And, secondly, their
    56        policy is completely meaningless in terms of having any
    57        policy of protection of what everybody else involved called
    58        them rainforest.
    59
    60        Can I also point out that those maps will help to identify

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