Day 036 - 13 Oct 94 - Page 30


     
     1        most cases the two have an inverse relationship.  That is
     2        in general the case because animal products never contain
     3        fibre and always contain fat, often containing a very
     4        substantial amount of fat.  Vegetable products always
     5        contain fibre virtually (unless it has been removed), and
     6        rarely contain much fat.  One can defeat that by adding
     7        one or the other, and modify the diet to something that is
     8        unnatural.
     9
    10   Q.   I am puzzled by this, Dr. Barnard.  It sounded to me a bit
    11        as though you were making the kind of assertion which on
    12        that television programme, I think it was the lady who
    13        conducted the interviews understood you to make.  You are
    14        not proposing that the person who eats meat does not eats
    15        vegetables, are you?
    16        A.  Regrettably, every bite of meat is not a bite of
    17        vegetables.  So to the extent that calories are derived
    18        from meat, there is no fibre in that portion of the diet.
    19
    20   Q.   Every slice of cheese and butter and every bowl of milky
    21        porridge that the Finns ate, apart perhaps from some fibre
    22        in the porridge, was fibreless?
    23        A.  Yes, that is correct.
    24
    25   Q.   But they supplemented their diet with large chunks of
    26        rural rye bread, did they not?
    27        A.  In comparison with New York that did increase their
    28        fibre intake, that is correct.
    29
    30   Q.   Do you have a thing called All Bran in the United States?
    31        A.  Yes, we do.
    32
    33   Q.   It is made by Kelloggs, I think.  Can you suggest an
    34        optimal gramme intake of fibre per day for a grown person?
    35        A.  Well, that is a source of controversy.  Many
    36        authorities would say, perhaps most, somewhere around the
    37        order of 30 grammes a day, say would say 35.  Denis
    38        Burkitt says better you are at 40 or said I should say.
    39        I would agree with Dr. Burkitt that somewhere along the
    40        lines of 40 or perhaps even more would be better.
    41
    42   Q.   Some quite reputable people have said 25 grammes a day is
    43        quite sufficient.
    44        A.  That is not a figure I would agree with and not a
    45        figure that Dr. Burkitt ever quoted.  There are some
    46        people who have alleged that that might be a useful
    47        figure.
    48
    49   Q.   There it is.  Can we go forwards again in time to 1992?
    50        I regret to say this is another piece of work by the 
    51        wicked maverick Dr. Walter Willett, but just all the same 
    52        I am going to ask you to look at it at tab 5 of this same 
    53        file.  This, Dr. Barnard, I am certain is a study with
    54        which you are well familiar?
    55        A.  Yes.
    56
    57   Q.   This is his 8-Year Follow-up published in October, I think
    58        it is, October 1992.
    59
    60   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Yes the eight years being between 1980 and

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