Day 290 - 30 Oct 96 - Page 40
1 his -----
2
3 MS. STEEL: Well, he agreed with it. I mean, he said "yes".
4 When I read that paragraph out about the animal being
5 paralysed without being rendered unconscious and may suffer
6 severe pain, he said, "Yes." He did not disagree. (Pause)
7
8 MR. JUSTICE BELL: He deals with it at pages 68 and 69. He
9 said that it was not possible to determine whether it was
10 more than a risk that the current would immobilise the pig
11 through its effect on the spinal cord without rendering it
12 instantaneously insensible. You would have to do a test to
13 do that, which he was obviously unhappy about
14 doing. "I would have expected, based on our experience,
15 that a proportion of pigs would not be instantaneously
16 stunned. They would get current through the neck instead.
17 That would cause them pain, or it could cause them pain.
18 It could do. It would certainly cause them distress. That
19 is likely."
20
21 MS. STEEL: Yes. Obviously, did he not carry out any direct
22 experiments to find out whether or not they were suffering
23 severe pain, because, presumably, he did not have all the
24 equipment there with him; and that was not what he was
25 there for, anyway. But the point is that if it is in the
26 Codes of Practice that that should not be done, presumably,
27 it is in there for a reason; and tests have established
28 that it is extremely painful for the animal concerned; and
29 there is absolutely no reason to assume that it would be
30 any different for the pigs at Bowes. Otherwise, I mean,
31 you would have to test every individual animal before you
32 could ever say it was suffering pain. It would just be a
33 ludicrous situation. It is total common sense that if it
34 is in the Codes of Practice as something that should not be
35 done because it causes severe pain, then ---
36
37 MR. JUSTICE BELL: No.
38
39 MS. STEEL: -- that is going to apply to all pigs.
40
41 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Your point may be just the same. But did the
42 Codes of Practice say it does cause severe pain or there is
43 a risk of it? His evidence, whatever was in the Codes of
44 Practice, was that there was a risk of it. The further
45 questions and answers were to see the extent to which you
46 could demonstrate, via his answers, that the risk meant
47 that there was actually pain or distress.
48
49 MS. STEEL: It is made in respect of an individual pig. But
50 when you have 200 to 240 going through every hour, it is
51 inevitable that it is not going to not apply to any of
52 them. It is inevitable it is going to apply to quite a
53 number of them. (Pause)
54
55 The second point was that when Dr. Gregory inspected the
56 stunning equipment, the electrodes were permanently live;
57 and he agreed that that could increase the risk of a pig
58 getting an electric shock. He said -- when I asked whether
59 it would cause pain and distress, he said it would cause
60 distress at least; and he agreed with your question that
