Day 092 - 27 Feb 95 - Page 38


     
     1        A.  There is not a -- you are trying to, you are asking me
     2        a black and white question which it is not.  You cannot say
     3        if it does pain, how much.  You are concentrating on a
     4        little piece of the equation.  We have to look at the
     5        entire animal from day one until it produces food.  You
     6        have to balance the pros and the cons.  If you do not
     7        debeak, you are going to have a higher incidence of animals
     8        pecking on each other and doing more harm than it is when
     9        they are, that it is if it is their pain during debeaking
    10        on day one.  You have to balance all of that.  If you do
    11        not do it, it is kind of like whether or not you provide
    12        antibiotics.  Are you going to provide antibiotics or are
    13        you going to let the animal suffer from a disease?  You
    14        have to balance that.
    15
    16   Q.   You have to balance it, do you not?
    17        A.  Yes, we do.
    18
    19   Q.   I do not balance it.  You choose to raise chickens in that
    20        way?
    21        A.  Yes, we do.
    22
    23   Q.   You choose to put more than one in a cage, do you not?
    24        A.  Yes, we do.
    25
    26   Q.   You choose to put them in the cage in the first place?
    27        A.  Yes, we do.
    28
    29   Q.   It is your choice?
    30        A.  Yes.
    31
    32   Q.   So if it is found that debeaking caused pain that would not
    33        lead to you rule that it should be stopped?
    34        A.  No.  You hear my question, not necessarily.  We have to
    35        look at the entire cycle of the animal and see all the
    36        factors in consideration.  We do not look at one cycle or
    37        one little thing and make a conclusion.  It will be totally
    38        wrong to not debeak if you know that it is going to hurt
    39        the animal during its entire life if you do not debeak it
    40        at day one.
    41
    42   MR. RAMPTON:  My Lord, might I mention something?  Mr. Morris
    43        and Ms. Steel as well mentioned something about findings in
    44        relation to debeaking.  Ms. Steel mentioned what appeared
    45        to be some kind of research on it.  I have looked at the
    46        statement of Clare Druce who is the Defendants' chicken
    47        expert.  I find nothing about debeaking and no reference to
    48        that piece of the research.  If this is going to proceed
    49        down an evidential road, then we shall require disclosure
    50        of all relevant documents including that piece of research. 
    51 
    52   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Right.  If you were merely putting it to see 
    53        if you got an answer which helped you, there you are; if
    54        you proposed positively to rely on it beyond what you put
    55        in questioning, then we should have a copy of any paper
    56        which has come from the study.
    57
    58   MS. STEEL:  We will try to get a copy but, equally, it would be
    59        help if we had all the papers that Mr. Gomez Gonzalez is
    60        claiming to have read in relation to this subject and

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