Day 070 - 20 Dec 94 - Page 15


     
     1
     2   MR. RAMPTON:  They could not conceivably.
     3
     4   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  You say that, and you might very well be
     5        right.
     6
     7   MR. RAMPTON:  My Lord, that was the test of relevance which
     8        I posed a moment ago.  If we should come upon any
     9        McDonald's documents or documents from others which
    10        McDonald's have got which show that, in fact, the account
    11        that Mr. Walker has given and that Lord Vesty has given is
    12        inaccurate and that the beef came from the heart of the
    13        Amazon -----
    14
    15   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  At the moment, I am unpersuaded.  I would
    16        have thought that any documentation that shows where it
    17        comes from is just as relevant as if it shows it came from
    18        an area which has not been rainforest for over 100 years,
    19        or that it came from an area which has never been
    20        rainforest over any kind of periods wherein records have
    21        been kept.  The negative is as important as the positive.
    22
    23   MR. RAMPTON:  I agree.  What, in my respectful submission, is
    24        not right is that it should go beyond that.  That is the
    25        relevant question:  where in Brazil did it grow; where was
    26        it grown; where was it grazed; not whether it was imported
    27        into this country or anywhere else -- except America, of
    28        course, United States.  That is a different issue, or at
    29        least in some part a different issue.
    30
    31        But I would certainly not agree to make any discovery of
    32        documents within McDonald's possession, custody or power
    33        beyond documents which are apt to show, yea or nay, whether
    34        these animals were grown on rainforest or recently
    35        deforested rainforest land.
    36
    37        One might suppose -- and this is a comment which is perhaps
    38        not very useful -- in the nature of things, that it is
    39        highly unlikely that there will be any such documents,
    40        depending upon the personal knowledge of the people
    41        concerned.  But I certainly go with your Lordship to that
    42        extent.
    43
    44   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  What, at the moment, I am minded to think you
    45        have to show before it is relevant is that you have some
    46        grounds for thinking that beef has gone from Brazil to
    47        McDonald's, or a supplier of McDonald's, which beef either
    48        came from -- I will use the same nebulous phrase as has
    49        been used in the evidence -- recently deforested rainforest
    50        land or fed on grain, soya, from any such area.  At the 
    51        moment, I am having difficulty seeing that the admitted 
    52        export of 80 tonnes during one period is any reasonable 
    53        ground for thinking that that might be so.
    54
    55        It is a completely different situation to the one you have
    56        in regard to Coope Montecillos because, whether or not at
    57        the end of the day I think any admissible evidence in that
    58        area carries any weight, at least you have a basis for
    59        putting forward the case.
    60

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