Day 104 - 15 Mar 95 - Page 32
1 knife they are using or do they pick another one up and
2 leave one in the sterilizer?
3 A. There are, perhaps, two or three knives for each
4 individual in the sterilizer, but by dipping the knife into
5 the sterilizer which are, of course, at 82 degrees
6 Centigrade and, therefore, just below boiling, that does
7 remove grease and sterilizes the knife as well.
8
9 Q. Do they wear gloves or anything?
10 A. No, no they do not. Certain operations where it is
11 useful from an occupational safety point of view they will
12 wear them but, broadly speaking, the operations that we are
13 discussing now, removal of gut and hide, interferes with
14 the skill necessary.
15
16 Q. It is a bit like pruning roses. Is there anything in the
17 sterilizer besides water?
18 A. No.
19
20 Q. Is it, in your view, sufficient to heat a knife or to put a
21 knife in water at 82 degrees Centigrade in order to
22 sterilize it?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24
25 MR. JUSTICE BELL: How long would it be in at 82 degrees to
26 sterilize?
27 A. The knives, my Lord, they are keeping by them, they
28 might be in for five minutes or so. If it is a particular
29 shape of knife that they are using, then they will dip it
30 in. Could I explain the term "sterilization" to clarify
31 the situation?
32
33 MR. RAMPTON: Yes.
34 A. To a scientist, a microbiologist, sterilization means
35 complete removal of all micro organisms, and that involves
36 the autoclaves that you see in laboratories and hospitals
37 for 20 minutes in the true technical word of sterilization.
38 So, the correct term, even though "sterilization" is used
39 in the legislation, is sanitization, that is, the reduction
40 of the micro organisms to an acceptable level. In plain
41 terms, to keep knives and equipment clean.
42
43 There is a distinction between common sense commercial
44 cleanliness which covers food safety requirements and the
45 scientific term of "sterilization". I am using the
46 understood term of keeping them clean and keeping the
47 bacteria down to acceptable limits when I say
48 "sterilization".
49
50 Q. That gives rise to this question, Mr. Bennett: Assume for
51 a moment that Jarretts have no interest in poisoning the
52 ultimate consumers of their meat. Are what they are doing
53 with those so called sterilizers sufficient for that
54 purpose?
55 A. They are certainly sufficient ------
56
57 Q. I do not mean on their own.
58 A. Yes, they are sufficient sterilization processes.
59
60 Q. We can deal with a couple of other things while we have the
