Day 093 - 28 Feb 95 - Page 08
1 Q. So the final paragraph of the article says: "The
2 activation of specific nociceptors" -----
3 A. I am sorry, where is that?
4
5 Q. The final paragraph, "and spontaneous discharges
6 originating from stump neuromas are implicated in acute and
7 chronic pain syndrome. From previous work it is clear that
8 the process of beak trimming results in the activation of
9 specific nociceptors in the beak at the time of surgery.
10 From the work presented here it is clear that neuromas are
11 formed as a result of the amputation and that these
12 neuromas probably give rise to abnormal spontaneous nervous
13 activity". Do you accept that?
14 A. No, I do not. (1) it says "probably" which means, the
15 last line or second to the last line, it says "probably";
16 that has not been proven yet. It says "activity", it does
17 not mean that that activity is transmitted to the nervous
18 central system.
19
20 Q. Would you accept -----
21
22 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Just let me ask a question about that. Leave
23 your point about a third of the beak as opposed to half a
24 centimetre or 1/64th of an inch, or whatever aside; on the
25 basis of what they did to this breed of laying hens, do you
26 think it is probable that the birds, or a significant
27 proportion of them, in the survey suffered pain or
28 discomfort from the amputation?
29 A. No, I do not think so. The beaks are pretty much like
30 nails. We do have -- we have some feeling but when we are
31 clipping or we burn the tip, that does not pass pain to the
32 brain.
33
34 Q. But if you clip your nail, I understand your point, there
35 are no nerves actually in the nail itself anywhere near the
36 tip, are there?
37 A. No, no.
38
39 Q. If you press the end of your nail, of course, you would
40 feel it because the force goes back down the nail and will
41 press against an innervated tissue ---
42 A. Right.
43
44 Q. -- what is being suggested here is that the nerves do
45 actually extend into the amputated part of the beak and
46 where the nerves are cut neuromas form at least in some
47 cases, and that leads to abnormal sensation. That is what
48 it is saying.
49 A. OK.
50
51 Q. Do you accept that that is probably so? It may not be
52 proven to your scientific standards, but do you accept that
53 it is probably so in the circumstances of this survey which
54 involved cutting off as much as one-third of the beak?
55 A. No, I am sorry, but I am a trained scientist. I deal
56 with facts and I cannot accept that. I do know that there
57 are some scientists and I do not know the reputation or
58 where it was published and, therefore, who the scientist
59 is. There are -- I have seen a lot of them that says
60 "probably" at the end so that they can get funds again to
