Day 309 - 03 Dec 96 - Page 45
1 someone who is not utterly indifferent to animals' welfare
2 but is prepared to countenance, and culpably to
3 countenance, certain inhumane practices; and to prove utter
4 indifference or, indeed, indifference to animal welfare
5 involves a much greater hurdle than just proving that they
6 countenance, wrongly countenance, practices here and there
7 which are cruel or inhumane.
8
9 MR. RAMPTON: I do not know what the opposite of indifference
10 actually is; perhaps something like caring about. But it
11 would have to be said by anybody that if the practices were
12 as extreme and as cruel as the leaflet suggests, not just
13 by the particular words used and particular descriptions
14 given, but by the use of the word "torture", it would be
15 very difficult to see how a person who was responsible who
16 countenanced that kind of suffering on the part of the
17 animals and at the same time said, "Yes, but I am not
18 indifferent to their suffering", how he would have any
19 credibility at all.
20
21 MR. JUSTICE BELL: If I disagreed with that, then "utter
22 indifference" falls, does it not?
23
24 MR. RAMPTON: It does. But your Lordship's meaning would then
25 be somewhat weaker than mine, that is all.
26
27 MR. JUSTICE BELL: That may be. I see that.
28
29 MR. RAMPTON: I really mean -----
30
31 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I am aware that one must not intellectualise
32 too much, but it could well be said -- I can see that you
33 can say, well, if you put in "cruel" instead of
34 "indifferent", "cruel" comes within the compass of utter
35 indifference resulting in -- being culpably responsible for
36 some cruel practices comes within the much larger compass
37 of utter indifference to welfare.
38
39 MR. RAMPTON: I would say so; though I am bound to say I do not
40 know that it does make as much difference as your Lordship
41 seems to say that it does, because, as I say, if the person
42 who is culpably -- and I emphasise the word "culpably" --
43 responsible for those horrendous practices has not got at
44 least a degree of indifference to that suffering, then it
45 would not happen.
46
47 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I appreciate that. But, I mean, this may not
48 be a view or a standpoint which Ms. Steel and Mr. Morris
49 share, but at the moment I have absolutely no difficulty
50 with the farmer who is a very caring stockman and is far
51 from indifferent to the welfare of his animals but, for
52 commercial expediency, condones certain practices,
53 sometimes in the life and death of his animals which the
54 outsider would say are just not good enough. But to call
55 him indifferent to the welfare of the animals would be a
56 misportrayal of his attitude towards them.
57
58 MR. RAMPTON: I entirely accept that; and if your Lordship
59 wishes to jettison "utterly indifferent" for those reasons,
60 I am not going to argue. But I will comment, if I may,
