Day 158 - 19 Jul 95 - Page 58


     
     1
     2        As I say, if it should turn out that the nearest piece of
     3        ex-rainforest land to, let us say, Goiania, was 2,000
     4        kilometres away or even 1,000 kilometres away, the north of
     5        the Mato Grosso, and if it turned out that that this piece
     6        of rain forest was clearly the 1920s or the 1930s, really
     7        then there is no real case to be litigated at all.
     8
     9        We really ought to know the answers to those sorts of
    10        questions before we have to go about asking ourselves even,
    11        what evidence do we need to meet this supposed case,
    12        because that we shall have to do I expect.  I could take
    13        the decision, on one view of my submissions today I have
    14        already taken it, that this pleading does not amount to a
    15        row of soyabeans anyway, but one cannot necessarily take
    16        that risk.  We might have to go and get, for example,
    17        somebody Kew Gardens who is an expert on rain forests to
    18        say, "Well, no, this is in fact all complete rubbish, they
    19        do not know the first thing about the geography of Brazil
    20        or indeed its ecological history."  That would be a bore
    21        which we would not want to have to do unless we have
    22        absolutely got to.
    23
    24   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  On the Braslo map it has the blue square with
    25        a dot in the middle.  It has "meat packing plants" and then
    26        is it in brackets "Do not supply McDonald's"?
    27
    28   MR. RAMPTON:  Yes. It is "Meat packing plants (Do not supply
    29        McDonald's)."  Even in that case -- there are two other
    30        borders, and one actually at the mouth of a river in a
    31        rain forest area.  I do not know what they do or what sort
    32        of meat they pack.
    33
    34   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Is there anything more you want to say about
    35        number one?
    36
    37   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Not about this.
    38
    39   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I think we all find this court absolutely
    40        stifling in the afternoon.  I am not inclined to sit on
    41        unnecessarily late just in the rush to finish things.
    42
    43   MR. RAMPTON:  We have only got one witness tomorrow anyway.
    44
    45   MR. MORRIS:  We want to come back anyway.
    46
    47   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  You have will have an opportunity to reply in
    48        the morning.  I suggest you take it in the morning.  I am
    49        going to rise now anyway.  So you can think about what you
    50        want to say in reply.  One thing I would like you to think 
    51        about is if I did not think you had passed the 
    52        Lord Justice Neill test so far as McDonald's actually 
    53        getting beef from rain forest land, or suppose I had
    54        reached this, or recently, that is within this century,
    55        deforested rain forest land, but I thought you ought to be
    56        able to plead a case which enabled you to put your knock-on
    57        argument -- you understand what I mean by that?
    58
    59   MR. MORRIS:  Can I clarify one point which the Plaintiffs
    60        continuously try to confuse the world about, that we are

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