Day 090 - 16 Feb 95 - Page 22
1 A. That is correct. If you are walking through a house,
2 you obviously have to do it carefully so that you do not
3 tread on any birds.
4
5 Q. But at that stage there is not much room for them to move
6 away.
7 A. There is not a great deal of room but there is some
8 room.
9
10 Q. I ask you again, do you think it is humane?
11 A. Well, I feel comfortable with the system. The birds
12 look healthy. If the environment is good and the environment/index.html">litter is
13 good, I am comfortable with that system. I really do not
14 know how to define "humane" because it has an
15 anthropomorphic connotation which I always try not to
16 introduce in dealing with animals.
17
18 Q. So you do not have a view on what you consider to be humane
19 and what you consider to be inhumane.
20
21 MR. JUSTICE BELL: If I may say so, if you can use another word
22 do, because "humane" may mean to him (whether or not it is
23 the right meaning of it, I do not really know) conditions
24 which a human being would find acceptable for himself. You
25 may argue at the end of the day whether that is an
26 appropriate test, but it is one which Mr. Pattison may be
27 reluctant to apply. It is because "humane" may mean what a
28 person of some humanity would find acceptable for an
29 animal, that is one thing; if it means what a person would
30 find acceptable for himself, then that is another
31 consideration.
32
33 THE WITNESS: I would rather use another word such as -- "cruel"
34 has a definite meaning which everybody understands, and if
35 I was asked if it was cruel, I would say that I do not
36 believe it is.
37
38 MS. STEEL: Can I just ask, though, do you ever use the word
39 "humane" in relation to animal treatment?
40 A. I do not because it is not a word, as I say, it has
41 anthropomorphic connotations which I think are very
42 difficult in dealing with animal welfare, because you are
43 assuming that all animals and birds have exactly the same
44 feelings and consciousness as a human being and that, quite
45 clearly, is not so.
46
47 Q. I will not get into an argument on that.
48
49 MR. JUSTICE BELL: No. You can make your point but I think that
50 is where the difficulty about the word "humane" has come in
51 from time to time in this case.
52
53 MS. STEEL: Have McDonald's ever asked you if your methods are
54 humane at Sun Valley?
55 A. McDonald's are very familiar with our methods and with
56 our procedures. They have been to visit our houses many
57 times. They have never expressed a view particularly.
58 They have always felt that we have a greater or a longer
59 lasting knowledge of farming methods and they are happy as
60 long as they feel comfortable to abide by our
