Day 090 - 16 Feb 95 - Page 22


     
     1        A.  That is correct.  If you are walking through a house,
     2        you obviously have to do it carefully so that you do not
     3        tread on any birds.
     4
     5   Q.   But at that stage there is not much room for them to move
     6        away.
     7        A.  There is not a great deal of room but there is some
     8        room.
     9
    10   Q.   I ask you again, do you think it is humane?
    11        A.  Well, I feel comfortable with the system.  The birds
    12        look healthy.  If the environment is good and the environment/index.html">litter is
    13        good, I am comfortable with that system.  I really do not
    14        know how to define "humane" because it has an
    15        anthropomorphic connotation which I always try not to
    16        introduce in dealing with animals.
    17
    18   Q.   So you do not have a view on what you consider to be humane
    19        and what you consider to be inhumane.
    20
    21   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  If I may say so, if you can use another word
    22        do, because "humane" may mean to him (whether or not it is
    23        the right meaning of it, I do not really know) conditions
    24        which a human being would find acceptable for himself.  You
    25        may argue at the end of the day whether that is an
    26        appropriate test, but it is one which Mr. Pattison may be
    27        reluctant to apply.  It is because "humane" may mean what a
    28        person of some humanity would find acceptable for an
    29        animal, that is one thing; if it means what a person would
    30        find acceptable for himself, then that is another
    31        consideration.
    32
    33   THE WITNESS:  I would rather use another word such as -- "cruel"
    34        has a definite meaning which everybody understands, and if
    35        I was asked if it was cruel, I would say that I do not
    36        believe it is.
    37
    38   MS. STEEL:  Can I just ask, though, do you ever use the word
    39        "humane" in relation to animal treatment?
    40        A.  I do not because it is not a word, as I say, it has
    41        anthropomorphic connotations which I think are very
    42        difficult in dealing with animal welfare, because you are
    43        assuming that all animals and birds have exactly the same
    44        feelings and consciousness as a human being and that, quite
    45        clearly, is not so.
    46
    47   Q.   I will not get into an argument on that.
    48
    49   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  No.  You can make your point but I think that
    50        is where the difficulty about the word "humane" has come in 
    51        from time to time in this case. 
    52 
    53   MS. STEEL:  Have McDonald's ever asked you if your methods are
    54        humane at Sun Valley?
    55        A.  McDonald's are very familiar with our methods and with
    56        our procedures.  They have been to visit our houses many
    57        times.  They have never expressed a view particularly.
    58        They have always felt that we have a greater or a longer
    59        lasting knowledge of farming methods and they are happy as
    60        long as they feel comfortable to abide by our

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